Guild Wars 2

The guild wars 2 manifesto.

Makes me want to log back in.

Makes me wish there was a way to get max gear without waiting for weeks and weeks for the raid to res……i mean for the laurels and commendations.

Windwalker.2047:

Makes me wish there was a way to get max gear without waiting for weeks and weeks for the raid to res……i mean for the laurels and commendations.

Well let me ask you this: Why do you want with that max gear? What will you do once you have it? What will it help you achieve, that you cannot do right now?

Again this? Wasn’t another thread like this around?

Olba.5376:

Windwalker.2047:

Makes me wish there was a way to get max gear without waiting for weeks and weeks for the raid to res……i mean for the laurels and commendations.

Well let me ask you this: Why do you want with that max gear? What will you do once you have it? What will it help you achieve, that you cannot do right now?

If it serves no purpose, why does it exist?

Olba.5376:

Well let me ask you this: Why do you want with that max gear? What will you do once you have it? What will it help you achieve, that you cannot do right now?

- People want max level gear because it increases their success at everything they do. You might as well ask why get a high-speed internet connection if slower connection can retrieve all the same info. Effectiveness is the reason.

Makes me nostalgic back when I hadn’t played it so I didn’t know (most) everything.

I think they delivered on their manifesto, and while GW2 has yet to surpass GW1 as my favourite game, it’s done a good job and if they keep working on it (like they have been) it can be even more amazing than it already is. People just like to cling on to bad things (there is gear with +5 more vitality than what they have, everyone get your pitchforks) and fail to enjoy the game as a whole. Honestly it’s good that they complain that there is too much gear in the game than complaining about how they can’t log in because it is broken or something like that, y’know, real problems.

Zenith.6403:

Olba.5376:

Well let me ask you this: Why do you want with that max gear? What will you do once you have it? What will it help you achieve, that you cannot do right now?

- People want max level gear because it increases their success at everything they do. You might as well ask why get a high-speed internet connection if slower connection can retrieve all the same info. Effectiveness is the reason.

People want max level gear because they are addicted to progression. The max level gear out now doesn’t appreciably help most people. In fact, people who aren’t running top level fractals don’t need ascended gear at all. Maybe some dungeons are a HAIR easier but not enough to care.

I’ve now done the same dungeons with and without ascended gear and there isn’t much difference. I surely haven’t noticed any.

Yeah maybe something dies like 2 seconds sooner, but considering that 2 seconds is out of a couple of minutes, it’s not noticable without a stop watch. And if you’re in a dungeon and other people have ascended gear, your extra contribution having it or not is 20% of the total extra time you save.

Only a very small percentage of the game population does high level fractals. Another percentage of people do WvW. A huge percentage hang around in the open world, which is easy enough no matter what you’re wearing.

People want this stuff because they’re looking at numbers. Why does it exist? For the people who insist on looking at numbers. They’re not the biggest percentage of players in the game, but they’re sure the loudest.

Storm in a teacup. This stuff isn’t necessary and if people didn’t moan and complain and leave because they felt they had nothing to do, we wouldn’t have it. But that’s what happened. So Anet compromised. They gave us gear that gave a tiny upgrade. Enough for most grinders to want, and enough for most other players to not care about.

Except for the people who think they need it and want it yesterday. And for those people, there isn’t much help anyway.

Vayne.8563:

Zenith.6403:

Olba.5376:

Well let me ask you this: Why do you want with that max gear? What will you do once you have it? What will it help you achieve, that you cannot do right now?

- People want max level gear because it increases their success at everything they do. You might as well ask why get a high-speed internet connection if slower connection can retrieve all the same info. Effectiveness is the reason.

People want max level gear because they are addicted to progression. The max level gear out now doesn’t appreciably help most people. In fact, people who aren’t running top level fractals don’t need ascended gear at all. Maybe some dungeons are a HAIR easier but not enough to care.

I’ve now done the same dungeons with and without ascended gear and there isn’t much difference. I surely haven’t noticed any.

Yeah maybe something dies like 2 seconds sooner, but considering that 2 seconds is out of a couple of minutes, it’s not noticable without a stop watch. And if you’re in a dungeon and other people have ascended gear, your extra contribution having it or not is 20% of the total extra time you save.

Only a very small percentage of the game population does high level fractals. Another percentage of people do WvW. A huge percentage hang around in the open world, which is easy enough no matter what you’re wearing.

People want this stuff because they’re looking at numbers. Why does it exist? For the people who insist on looking at numbers. They’re not the biggest percentage of players in the game, but they’re sure the loudest.

Storm in a teacup. This stuff isn’t necessary and if people didn’t moan and complain and leave because they felt they had nothing to do, we wouldn’t have it. But that’s what happened. So Anet compromised. They gave us gear that gave a tiny upgrade. Enough for most grinders to want, and enough for most other players to not care about.

Except for the people who think they need it and want it yesterday. And for those people, there isn’t much help anyway.

So are you implying that Arena Net are our drug dealers?

It makes me want to choke the forums.

For kittens sake, not another one of these threads

Geikamir.6329:

Vayne.8563:

Zenith.6403:

Olba.5376:

Well let me ask you this: Why do you want with that max gear? What will you do once you have it? What will it help you achieve, that you cannot do right now?

- People want max level gear because it increases their success at everything they do. You might as well ask why get a high-speed internet connection if slower connection can retrieve all the same info. Effectiveness is the reason.

People want max level gear because they are addicted to progression. The max level gear out now doesn’t appreciably help most people. In fact, people who aren’t running top level fractals don’t need ascended gear at all. Maybe some dungeons are a HAIR easier but not enough to care.

I’ve now done the same dungeons with and without ascended gear and there isn’t much difference. I surely haven’t noticed any.

Yeah maybe something dies like 2 seconds sooner, but considering that 2 seconds is out of a couple of minutes, it’s not noticable without a stop watch. And if you’re in a dungeon and other people have ascended gear, your extra contribution having it or not is 20% of the total extra time you save.

Only a very small percentage of the game population does high level fractals. Another percentage of people do WvW. A huge percentage hang around in the open world, which is easy enough no matter what you’re wearing.

People want this stuff because they’re looking at numbers. Why does it exist? For the people who insist on looking at numbers. They’re not the biggest percentage of players in the game, but they’re sure the loudest.

Storm in a teacup. This stuff isn’t necessary and if people didn’t moan and complain and leave because they felt they had nothing to do, we wouldn’t have it. But that’s what happened. So Anet compromised. They gave us gear that gave a tiny upgrade. Enough for most grinders to want, and enough for most other players to not care about.

Except for the people who think they need it and want it yesterday. And for those people, there isn’t much help anyway.

So are you implying that Arena Net are our drug dealers?

I’m implying that there’s no way possible to satisfy the content locusts with pure content, because it takes a very long time to develop content. And so stuff has to be offered to them to keep them busy. That’s true of a percentage of players…not all players.

Anet is offering people reasons to stay in the game. It offered other people, unfortunately, reason to leave the game.

I’m pretty sure that more people stayed due to having something to work toward than those that left. Particularly as the game gets new players (which happens) who don’t have the attachment to Guild Wars 1 protocols.

There are still many Guild Wars 1 people playing this game, but there are also people from other MMOs. Many of them find the so-called grind in Guild Wars 2 quite acceptable, because in most MMOs it’s far far worse. Or it’s become pay to win like Lotro and DDO.

Are they are drug dealers? Nah. But they are providing an entertainment service and in that, they’re trying to reach as many player types as possible. Because more players mean more chances of buying stuff in the cash shop, which means more content is possible.

Honestly, it makes me wonder how I got to where I am in the game right now.

@Vayne.

I’m on my phone so quoting that was turning into a nightmare.

Horizontal progression is progression too. It’s what GW1 had and that’s what prelaunch fans wanted from this game as well.

No one likes to be disadvantaged. Period. You are arguing for certain players to be disadvantaged just so the players that want uneven playing fields can be happy. Sorry, but I’m never going to agree with such nonsense

Geikamir.6329:

@Vayne.

I’m on my phone so quoting that was turning into a nightmare.

Horizontal progression is progression too. It’s what GW1 had and that’s what prelaunch fans wanted from this game as well.

No one likes to be disadvantaged. Period. You are arguing for certain players to be disadvantaged just so the players that want uneven playing fields can be happy. Sorry, but I’m never going to agree with such nonsense

Nope, I’m arguing that Guild Wars 1 players make up a pretty small percentage of gamers over all, and Guild Wars 2 has a much higher profile. I’m arguing that gamers who come from other games have been trained by those games to expect certain things. I’m arguing that horizontal progression isn’t enough for many, if not most of those players. I’m arguing that as a business decision, Anet did what anyone in their right mind would do, if they felt this was the case. I don’t know if they did, but I certainly saw enough of it. People complaining all the time about nothing to do at 80..even though cosmetic stuff was in the game. The percentage of people who complain there’s nothing to do at 80 is far less now than it was before November. Thus it was a good decision.

Further, I’m arguing that a difference that makes no difference is no difference. I don’t feel the ascended gear, as it stands now, makes enough of a difference to concern me. I personally don’t feel disadvantaged by it. Those who do feel disadvantaged have a certain mindset. They’ll either do what is necessary to get that stuff, or they’ll leave the game.

I’m arguing the percentage of people who will stay, particularly at this point, is much higher than the percentage of people still here who will leave.

Exactly. Their decisions made have our wallets as bullseyes. They are more business than game studio. Which is fine, but don’t defend their decisions like it’s good game design. It’s good profit design. Which, as usual, is horrible game design.

Geikamir.6329:

@Vayne.

I’m on my phone so quoting that was turning into a nightmare.

Horizontal progression is progression too. It’s what GW1 had and that’s what prelaunch fans wanted from this game as well.

No one likes to be disadvantaged. Period. You are arguing for certain players to be disadvantaged just so the players that want uneven playing fields can be happy. Sorry, but I’m never going to agree with such nonsense

This is how I feel about the next upcoming patch to WvW and ANETs choice to make it character bound. All the solo character people are jumping on the character bound bandwagon because they know that if they can put others down they will have an advantage. I just can’t fatham why anyone would want such selfish people in there WvW guild.

Geikamir.6329:

Exactly. Their decisions made have our wallets as bullseyes. They are more business than game studio. Which is fine, but don’t defend their decisions like it’s good game design. It’s good profit design. Which, as usual, is horrible game design.

No, their decisions have kept people in the game. I don’t feel great need to spend money in the cash shop. In fact, as far as most MMOs go with cash shops there’s very little in the cash shop that’s must have. And you get get a lot of it with just gold if you wanted to. Doesn’t sound overtly greedy to me.

Have you ever played Lotro or DDO? Where you can actually by traits and stats from the cash shop? Unlock character classes? Open up parts of the game that were previously locked?

Let me give you an example. I was playing DDO and there was a dungeon in a low level area. It had a shuriken (throwing star) that came back to you. I wanted it on my monk. Keep in mind I had to pay cash to unlock the monk profession.

So I wanted to do the dungeon to get the shriken that returned to you. Oh, sorry that’s not in the free game. If you want to play that dungeon, you have to buy this package.

In Lotro I was playing with a friend and he started doing quests that I wasn’t able to do, because I hadn’t bought that package. He was in an area completely cut off from me. The game is free, but the individual areas aren’t. You can easily pay hundreds of dollars a month for these games.

And in Guild Wars 2, you randomly get a lot of cash shop stuff completing dailies and zones, which you can do relatively easily. Today I got a black lion salvage kit from a zone completion. A couple of days ago I got a repair canister. I get so much stuff for free, I barely need to buy anything.

Greed is greed. Trying to keep people playing the game is good for all of us.

That’s not how their business plan is set up. Keeping us in the game with artificial time gates is not good for the player no matter how you try to spin it. They keep more people playing in hopes that they will buy stuff from the cash shop and buy an expansion pack when it comes out.

A properly designed game offers enough intrinsic rewards to make me want to stay in the game, not feel forced to if I want to stay competative. There are plenty of games out there that already have those carrots.

OMG how long do you GW1 Fanbois have to beat this dead horse? IT IS DEAD.

Trajan.4953:

OMG how long do you GW1 Fanbois have to beat this dead horse? IT IS DEAD.

WoW fanboi alert.

Geikamir.6329:

That’s not how their business plan is set up. Keeping us in the game with artificial time gates is not good for the player no matter how you try to spin it. They keep more people playing in hopes that they will buy stuff from the cash shop and buy an expansion pack when it comes out.

A properly designed game offers enough intrinsic rewards to make me want to stay in the game, not feel forced to if I want to stay competative. There are plenty of games out there that already have those carrots.

A properly designed game, or a properly designed MMO. Every MMO in existence has time sinks. There are no exceptions to this. Hell Guild Wars 1 had time sinks too. Are you really telling me that the golden title or standing in rings was fun and not a time sink. Or that getting your kurzick or luxon faction up so your skills would be more powerful was not a time sink? Every hear of FFF (fast faction farmnig). How about all the Eye of the North racial skills that benefited from you grinding out points by either filling books or grinding mobs or doing vanquishes.

Every…single…MMO. has time sinks. This isn’t bad design. This is you wishing that development time for content was faster, so they didn’t have to resort to it.

“And if you don’t like MMOs you should really check out GW2”

Just because other games of this genre commonly use this form of pseudo content, doesn’t make it good design.

Oh you found it! ArenaNet have removed it from their blog page. No idea why. It used to be here:

http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto

AFAIK, the whole blog page is gone, not just the manifesto.

Imagine, if you will, a boat floating on a lake. There’s a ladder on the side of the boat with 10 rungs, each spaced 1 foot apart. The water level reaches the 2nd rung of the ladder. The Lake Level Committee decides to raise the level of the lake by 5 feet. What rung does the water level reach on the ladder on the boat after the lake level is raised by 5 feet?

That’s gear progression. Ain’t nobody got time for that!

Tachenon.5270:

Imagine, if you will, a boat floating on a lake. There’s a ladder on the side of the boat with 10 rungs, each spaced 1 foot apart. The water level reaches the 2nd rung of the ladder. The Lake Level Committee decides to raise the level of the lake by 5 feet. What rung does the water level reach on the ladder on the boat after the lake level is raised by 5 feet?

That’s gear progression. Ain’t nobody got time for that!

The second, because the boat floats? I have no idea where you’re going with this analogy…

Chuo.4238:

Tachenon.5270:

Imagine, if you will, a boat floating on a lake. There’s a ladder on the side of the boat with 10 rungs, each spaced 1 foot apart. The water level reaches the 2nd rung of the ladder. The Lake Level Committee decides to raise the level of the lake by 5 feet. What rung does the water level reach on the ladder on the boat after the lake level is raised by 5 feet?

That’s gear progression. Ain’t nobody got time for that!

The second, because the boat floats? I have no idea where you’re going with this analogy…

I feel the term ‘treadmill’ has been over-used, so I went for a more, ahem, innovative way of expressing the concept. Of going nowhere. Guess it didn’t work, huh. :-D

It gives me deja vu seeing as there was a mega thread not that long ago that started with exactly the same video with the same theme.

Rhaps.8540:

It gives me deja vu seeing as there was a mega thread not that long ago that started with exactly the same video with the same theme.

There have been many threads like this one. I do find it interesting that it keeps coming up…

I have to admit, that is a great video. Whoever came up with it got a Christmas Bonus, I hope.

Makes me wish Guildwars 1 wasn’t dead…

Geikamir.6329:

“And if you don’t like MMOs you should really check out GW2”

Just because other games of this genre commonly use this form of pseudo content, doesn’t make it good design.

So what’s the alternative? There’s plenty of stuff I hate from other MMOs that aren’t in this one. That doesn’t mean this game doesn’t have swords. Pulling out one quote and saying that that’s what anyone meant by it is disingenuous.

Everyone can rez, everyone has their own nodes, everyone gets their own loot, no trinity, these are things I love about Guild Wars 2, and things that other MMOs have that I hate. So yes, I hate other MMOs and I enjoy Guild Wars 2. No problem there.

In a logical world, content takes time to make. Some people need content to continue playing. Anet needs people playing for the game to continue to thrive. It’s all really very simple.

It shows me how Anet developers had most of the fun: they colored my coloring book, and gave me few choices. They changed what little variety of items they had for level 80’s, making the player a controlled puppet strictly directed to small areas to acquire items and gold. Then they left me with nothing to buy with my gold.

The game could be alot of fun if more sandbox, player controlled content is added: such as open world consensual pvp/guild battles, non-instanced customizable housing/guild housing, and fun, meaningful profitable crafting. My cook does not even have a stove, nor my blacksmith a forge. A game that at least has the most popular features will be very successful

Geikamir.6329:

That’s not how their business plan is set up. Keeping us in the game with artificial time gates is not good for the player no matter how you try to spin it. They keep more people playing in hopes that they will buy stuff from the cash shop and buy an expansion pack when it comes out.

A properly designed game offers enough intrinsic rewards to make me want to stay in the game, not feel forced to if I want to stay competative. There are plenty of games out there that already have those carrots.

Actually, time gated material is more for keeping completion at a pace that ANet can manage. If nothing was on a time gate, this game would be pretty dead. Why? Because people would piledrive through all the content over and over until everyone has all the items they wanted from said content. Time gating also helps them keep people playing while they work on new patches/content. It’s the lesser evil of the choices they had as a company in my opinion.

It has 0 to do with competitive stats, since ascended accessories do not increase your ability to do things by that much. Honestly, people are running around in rares still, doing just fine. The only thing you need ascended items for is fractals. If you don’t do those, but still want them, then tough. They are only required if, the above reason notwithstanding, you want them or feel you need the. Otherwise they are optional.

It makes me sad to see people want time gating gone. They’d be playing mostly alone once everyone has all the ‘things’.

Vayne.8563:

Geikamir.6329:

“And if you don’t like MMOs you should really check out GW2”

Just because other games of this genre commonly use this form of pseudo content, doesn’t make it good design.

So what’s the alternative? There’s plenty of stuff I hate from other MMOs that aren’t in this one. That doesn’t mean this game doesn’t have swords. Pulling out one quote and saying that that’s what anyone meant by it is disingenuous.

Everyone can rez, everyone has their own nodes, everyone gets their own loot, no trinity, these are things I love about Guild Wars 2, and things that other MMOs have that I hate. So yes, I hate other MMOs and I enjoy Guild Wars 2. No problem there.

In a logical world, content takes time to make. Some people need content to continue playing. Anet needs people playing for the game to continue to thrive. It’s all really very simple.

You excused their actions with the “every MMO has these” line. I used that quote because this game sold it self as a game that does things because it’s fun, not because it feels like it’s supposed to according to it’s genre. It’s really not a good argument for anything anyway. Just because it’s been done before does not mean it’s the right option for a product. In fact, it’s usually the exact opposite if you want to be innovative.

Time-gated content is not good for the players. If forces them to play for a certain amount of time until better content comes out. A better system makes players want to stay around. That’s where me and you seem to never be getting to a point of understanding at.

Arale.4207:

Geikamir.6329:

That’s not how their business plan is set up. Keeping us in the game with artificial time gates is not good for the player no matter how you try to spin it. They keep more people playing in hopes that they will buy stuff from the cash shop and buy an expansion pack when it comes out.

A properly designed game offers enough intrinsic rewards to make me want to stay in the game, not feel forced to if I want to stay competative. There are plenty of games out there that already have those carrots.

Actually, time gated material is more for keeping completion at a pace that ANet can manage. If nothing was on a time gate, this game would be pretty dead. Why? Because people would piledrive through all the content over and over until everyone has all the items they wanted from said content. Time gating also helps them keep people playing while they work on new patches/content. It’s the lesser evil of the choices they had as a company in my opinion.

It has 0 to do with competitive stats, since ascended accessories do not increase your ability to do things by that much. Honestly, people are running around in rares still, doing just fine. The only thing you need ascended items for is fractals. If you don’t do those, but still want them, then tough. They are only required if, the above reason notwithstanding, you want them or feel you need the. Otherwise they are optional.

It makes me sad to see people want time gating gone. They’d be playing mostly alone once everyone has all the ‘things’.

Making the people that ‘pile drive through content’ and then leave the most happy is bad for the game especially when everyone thought this game would have progression that was horizontal. Those players came into this game knowing what type of game it was. It goes back to the “you can’t please everyone all the time” saying. This is a perfect example. They are trying to please everyone, and heavily favoring those that want vertical progression. They are turning this game into a game just like any other MMO out there. It’s stagnating innovation and taking away the ONLY haven of a game we have for a different playstyle.

Content that is held back based off of time hurts players. The main selling point of not having a sub fee is that you can come back anytime you want. And previously you could tack on ‘and still be competitive’, but that’s no longer true. Trying to take a break for a few months and come back, it actually becomes impossible to catch up at the current rate of acquisition of top-tier gear no matter how much time and energy you devote to it. Players will always be ahead of you, especially if they add more levels and another gear tier.

This type of design is good for the company only. No one else actually benefits.