the big lake in the SE corner of the beginner zone? I’ve been gone a while, but back for over a month. I got my daughter an account and the lake is a lowbie place to learn to swim and fight underwater for Asura, but it is complete barren. Nothing in it or around it’s shoreline. It used to be infested with skelk and inquest agents, and that big shark occasionally. Now, unless my machine is suddenly not rendering anything, it’s like a lethal toxic waste was dumped there.
Since underwater combat is now ‘unlocked’ at a higher level, that area was drained because it would be a deathtrap for players to go swimming before they actually are able to defend themselves while doing so.
Yes, never understood this. I never encountered anyone who thought it was too confusing at low levels. I understand pacing content across levels, but this made no sense at all.
I hope one day they reconsider this. Underwater content is a wonderful part of the game (ok it needs refinement and balancing) and should never have been nerfed away in my opinion.
Since underwater combat is now ‘unlocked’ at a higher level, that area was drained because it would be a deathtrap for players to go swimming before they actually are able to defend themselves while doing so.
Hmm.
A lot of us cut our teeth in that lake and I’m not sure I like the idea moving UW stuff up in level. Nobody is forced to do it at low levels. Change for the sake of change, methinks, where the effort could be used for new content or to fix chronic old bugs.
Now I’ll have to check the water in every newbie zone to see what’s been taken out, I suppose.
Yes, it’s sad. I miss the Inquest that abandoned that lake, along with their shark.
I also miss the sylvan dog transform quest that was one of the earliest things you encounter as a new Sylvari. It’s still kinda there, but you just play with the pups and fight spiders instead of being turned into a sylvan dog yourself.
It’s also very frustrating and confusing for new players to keep running into skill point challenges that they can’t access. I’ve run into this with my kids while playing. “Oh, yeah, sorry, you can’t do that right now, we’ll have to come back when you get a few more levels”.
The NPE was very ill-conceived.
Wish we could see the metrics, and judge whether or not these annoyances actually helped anyone.
The little lake in Queensdale by the dam, with the earth elementals heart, is also empty. That was my first “eh, what?” moment upon playing a new toon under the NPE. Ok, maybe second. How easy the giant earth elemental went down was the first. Hmm, or maybe no weapon skill unlocks…
You don’t even get an underwater weapon for quite some time, level 8 as a level up reward, and (I think, not sure) that’s the earliest you get a weapon skill also. So, they had to remove/change the red mobs as those low levels don’t even have a weapon to fight with underwater unless they know how and where to buy starter underwater weapons.
I’ve noticed the skale in the ~ level 6 Norn underwater area are now all yellow. Those used to be red and where many of my original chars got their first underwater combat.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
You don’t even get an underwater weapon for quite some time, level 8 as a level up reward, and (I think, not sure) that’s the earliest you get a weapon skill also. So, they had to remove/change the red mobs as those low levels don’t even have a weapon to fight with underwater unless they know how and where to buy starter underwater weapons.
I’ve noticed the skale in the ~ level 6 Norn underwater area are now all yellow. Those used to be red and where many of my original chars got their first underwater combat.
ohhh the ones by the underwater cave/bear totem? that was pretty interesting the first time i played, doing the heart and then finding what seemed like secret area with tough monsters.
eh well some times people make a product worse overtime by overworking it.
You don’t even get an underwater weapon for quite some time, level 8 as a level up reward, and (I think, not sure) that’s the earliest you get a weapon skill also. So, they had to remove/change the red mobs as those low levels don’t even have a weapon to fight with underwater unless they know how and where to buy starter underwater weapons.
I’ve noticed the skale in the ~ level 6 Norn underwater area are now all yellow. Those used to be red and where many of my original chars got their first underwater combat.
ohhh the ones by the underwater cave/bear totem? that was pretty interesting the first time i played, doing the heart and then finding what seemed like secret area with tough monsters.
eh well some times people make a product worse overtime by overworking it.
Yeah, the one that leads to the skill point and the one that leads to the dredge cave. I remember doing the event back then where you collect the underwater flowers and fighting my way through the skelk to collect them and get to the NPC who wants them. It feels odd now, my char swimming past them, picking up flowers, completely at ease.
It’s a shame I didn’t know how confused I was back then and that I was unable to handle underwater combat at such a low level. I just leaped in and did it. Died a few times of course but that’s the way you learn, at least that’s what I thought.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
I’d have to agree with the sentiment here. Was playing last weekend with a friend who was new to the game. We got to a skill point and I told them to go ahead and claim the skill point. I was surprised and disappointed when they couldn’t claim the skill point due to NPE. That ended up being confusing to them that they couldn’t get the skill point, thus going contrary to the purpose of the NPE changes in the first place.
I don’t see why this was a problem to begin with. How many players honestly went underwater, pressed a button, saw their characters attack and completely freaked out, threw their PC out of the window and never came back to GW2 ever again?
Really?
I find that a weeeee bit hard to believe.
Especially because underwater is one of the most impressive parts of GW2, outside of its lack of PvP balance. And at lower levels the lack of UW-skills is not yet noticeable so newcomers had 0 issues with it, instead it had amazing atmosphere.
Alas, apparently “too difficult” (said in Jim Sterling’s voice) for players. Can’t have dat! Needs more click-here-for-reward!
They also removed the golem chess from the first heart in Metrica Province.
Wait, what?!
They removed the unique parts of a newbie zone? Why would you ever want to do that? Did a high-level manager do these changes without consulting design? :’(
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Oh noes. New players have to wait to get to the second body of water to do underwater combat instead of the first. I mean, this could happen a good 20 minutes later if they’re slow! I can see that this has utterly undermined the entire experience of GW2.
Especially because underwater is one of the most impressive parts of GW2, outside of its lack of PvP balance.
Too bad Anet disagree, and instead of polishing that part of the game to fix the problems that still plague it, they seem to have started phasing it out part by part. Which possibly influenced the decisions behind metrica lake changes, no matter the official statement.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Underwater combat is absolutely terrible. It’s either painfully boring or painfully awkward, and usually both.
It would have taken a Herculean effort to polish it to be on par with terrestrial combat (which is outstanding), and it seems they didn’t want to invest the resources. It’s unfortunate perhaps, but I can’t blame them for making that decision.
To be fair, they did say new player retention was below average for an mmorpg and that when they studied the best way to improve retention, it turned out to not be a tutorial but to restrict and delay new information and abilities until the new players had reached higher levels, which meant a “nerf” of the starter zones and what new players can do.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
Underwater combat is absolutely terrible. It’s either painfully boring or painfully awkward, and usually both.
It would have taken a Herculean effort to polish it to be on par with terrestrial combat (which is outstanding), and it seems they didn’t want to invest the resources. It’s unfortunate perhaps, but I can’t blame them for making that decision.
Far as a I can tell, there’s only 4 significant changes underwater:
AE targeting doesn’t work. The big problem, since well, there’s no surface to target at. Solution: Not a proper solution, but make all ground-targeted skills target the current target instead (even if the target happens to be friendly).
Some skills don’t work. Easy enough to fix, as the major issue is the AE targeting really. Solution: None needed really, just iterate through the skills, enabling 1-2 each week or two until all or nearly all (Flamethrower :P ) are available.
6-degrees-of-freedom. Not a problem, rather the cool part of underwater combat.
Can get up from drowned via swimming to the surface. Not a problem in itself either though it’s painfully slow and should be buffed significantly.
That’s it, AFAIK.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Can get up from drowned via swimming to the surface. Not a problem in itself either though it’s painfully slow and should be buffed significantly.
Try using your #4 downed skill underwater. It’s ridiculously fast and you can keep moving while using it. Swimming to the surface is absolutely the worse option.
Try using your #4 downed skill underwater. It’s ridiculously fast and you can keep moving while using it. Swimming to the surface is absolutely the worse option.
Yes, that was kinda my point. The surface-to-get-up is unique to underwater combat, but isn’t a problem in itself even if it is a lot weaker than it ought to be. It is still a significant difference from land combat, though.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Underwater combat is absolutely terrible. It’s either painfully boring or painfully awkward, and usually both.
It would have taken a Herculean effort to polish it to be on par with terrestrial combat (which is outstanding), and it seems they didn’t want to invest the resources. It’s unfortunate perhaps, but I can’t blame them for making that decision.
Far as a I can tell, there’s only 4 significant changes underwater:
…
That’s it, AFAIK.
There are a ton of problems with water combat, but I’ll just hit the major ones to keep this a brief as possible:
Combo fields: One of the coolest subtleties of gw2 combat, and also one of the most important for both PvP and engaging PvE content. They virtually disappear underwater. Fire fields, smoke fields, and most ironically, water fields are very hard to come by and the few that can be used underwater, just like any field underwater, are incredibly awkward and hard to finish through. This is one of those classic “immersion” issues.
Weapon Diversity: Spear, harpoon gun, and trident. That’s all we have for 8 different classes. Incredibly limiting when it comes to build diversity and utility.
Utility Skills: Go underwater on a thief and try to change your utility skills. I really hope you like venoms and signets…. Every class has a number of utility skills that simply cannot be used underwater. There is no replacement version that’s similar and less “immersion breaking”, in fact there is no replacement skill at all. Just a big red X. Completely broken for game balance, and boring as hell.
Attack Speeds, Damage Coefficients and CDs: In short, every class feels abhorrently weak and under-powered when fighting underwater compared to fighting on land. Even with best in slot aquatic weapons, proper sigils, and a 6th rune on your aquabreather. The only 2 exceptions to this are engineers and to some extent warriors.
Mobility: Again, an “immersion” issue that breaks both balance and the fun of combat. Classes like thief and mesmer that rely on stealth and the ability to disengage lose some or all of those abilities underwater. Gap closers and movement skills are few and far between and typically suck. Soft CC from cripple, chill, and immobilize are seriously lacking on weapon sets and utility skills.
These (and other smaller issues) are the reasons why Raid on the Capricorn was removed from the PvP map rotation, and why the only bit of underwater content that’s been released since launch is the Aquatic Ruins fractal (in November of 2012, nothing since).
Anet could make underwater combat better, improve it a little bit, but what’s the point of doing that if it’s always going to be kittentier and less fun than fighting on land? It was a cool idea that didn’t pan out well, and I’m pretty sure they’ve resigned themselves to the fact that it’s a lost cause.
So yea, a Herculean effort would be needed to fix it, and it’s hard to imagine water combat ever being as fun and diverse as fighting on land.
I bought a second account on Monday (for the extra bank space, storage expansion, etc). So just for grins, I deleted my bank alt mule and started over to see how long this really took (I actually didn’t want to level these alts because of all the “hate” for the NPE).
On a thief, It took me an hour to get from start to level 8 (where underwater unlocks) and I wasn’t even trying hard (no food, boosts). Really? all this complaining about an hour? I honestly didn’t even notice, I was running around unlocking stuff roughly every 10 minutes.
Previously (old system), I had to spend an hour just running around unlocking each weapon skill for each weapon.
I really don’t think this NPE is as bad as all the forum folks make it out to be. Yeah, traits are probably in the wrong place, but I could level this thief all the way to 80 with just dagger/pistol and sword/pistol (blinds and interrupts can go a long way).
Tootsie Popa | level 80 Guardian/Dragonhunter
[ODIN] [roam] Tarnished Coast
“The average player believes they are better than the average player”.
I bought a second account on Monday (for the extra bank space, storage expansion, etc). So just for grins, I deleted my bank alt mule and started over to see how long this really took (I actually didn’t want to level these alts because of all the “hate” for the NPE).
On a thief, It took me an hour to get from start to level 8 (where underwater unlocks) and I wasn’t even trying hard (no food, boosts). Really? all this complaining about an hour? I honestly didn’t even notice, I was running around unlocking stuff roughly every 10 minutes.
Previously (old system), I had to spend an hour just running around unlocking each weapon skill for each weapon.
I really don’t think this NPE is as bad as all the forum folks make it out to be. Yeah, traits are probably in the wrong place, but I could level this thief all the way to 80 with just dagger/pistol and sword/pistol (blinds and interrupts can go a long way).
you missed the point, its not about how easy it is, its about how interesting it is to start over, versus how interesting it was before.
the fact you can level to 80 using a weapon set is largely irrelevant
There are a ton of problems with water combat, but I’ll just hit the major ones to keep this a brief as possible:
Combo fields: One of the coolest subtleties of gw2 combat, and also one of the most important for both PvP and engaging PvE content. They virtually disappear underwater. Fire fields, smoke fields, and most ironically, water fields are very hard to come by and the few that can be used underwater, just like any field underwater, are incredibly awkward and hard to finish through. This is one of those classic “immersion” issues.
Weapon Diversity: Spear, harpoon gun, and trident. That’s all we have for 8 different classes. Incredibly limiting when it comes to build diversity and utility.
Utility Skills: Go underwater on a thief and try to change your utility skills. I really hope you like venoms and signets…. Every class has a number of utility skills that simply cannot be used underwater. There is no replacement version that’s similar and less “immersion breaking”, in fact there is no replacement skill at all. Just a big red X. Completely broken for game balance, and boring as hell.
Attack Speeds, Damage Coefficients and CDs: In short, every class feels abhorrently weak and under-powered when fighting underwater compared to fighting on land. Even with best in slot aquatic weapons, proper sigils, and a 6th rune on your aquabreather. The only 2 exceptions to this are engineers and to some extent warriors.
Mobility: Again, an “immersion” issue that breaks both balance and the fun of combat. Classes like thief and mesmer that rely on stealth and the ability to disengage lose some or all of those abilities underwater. Gap closers and movement skills are few and far between and typically suck. Soft CC from cripple, chill, and immobilize are seriously lacking on weapon sets and utility skills.
What’s sad is that for Necromancers, all but the weapons restrictions are the opposite. Improved combo play, faster attack speeds, higher damage, still have high CC (both soft and hard) and good mobility, and even more reliable utilities (in the form of minions) than on land. Nobody, and I do mean nobody can challenge a Necro underwater solo and expect to win.
Heck, the number of requests Necros have made for underwater stuff to be made available on land is staggering.
you missed the point, its not about how easy it is, its about how interesting it is to start over, versus how interesting it was before.
My point wasn’t really about how interesting this would be to a veteran player.
A new player wouldn’t know the skills, traits have changed. It appears that Level 8 can be achieved fairly quick so I don’t think most new player would have known the underwater skills are missing.
I didn’t level my 2nd, 3rd or 10th alt the same way I leveled my first. but at least I had that original experience to help guide me to make interesting choices on how I would level those alts. New players don’t have that knowledge to help them.
A “veteran” player would just pick those underwater skills with a quick jump in any body of water probably after using a scroll, tomes, writs, EOTM, sPVP, etc.
Tootsie Popa | level 80 Guardian/Dragonhunter
[ODIN] [roam] Tarnished Coast
“The average player believes they are better than the average player”.
Since underwater combat is now ‘unlocked’ at a higher level, that area was drained because it would be a deathtrap for players to go swimming before they actually are able to defend themselves while doing so.
Wow, I thought you were joking at first.
Now I know better.
This is just really, really sad. Cutting content from their game because it’s too “confusing”? Really? What an absolute waste.
Nobody, and I do mean nobody can challenge a Necro underwater solo and expect to win.
Sure about that? I’m always surprised how much people underestimate me (Mesmer) underwater, in spite of how much the Trident got (rightfully) nerfed.
I really don’t necessarily get the list you quoted. It comes down to basically “We don’t have all abilities”. Yeah I mentioned that, that’s a linear problem though. A single dev could sit down, enable & test & debug an ability every 2-3 days and each patch enables 3-4 more abilities. Easy enough to do.
It’s a design decision not to do so (they’re abandoning underwater combat conceptually), and a pretty terrible one for atmospheric reasons as underwater is one of GW2’s strongest aspects (atmosphere-wise).
Sad.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Golem chess went too. They also took away most of the skills in the snow leopard transformation heart in Wayfarer.
I remember the first time I went to Metrica, I was amazed by all the little touches and possibilities. Like this game was a HUGE world to explore with loads to do. I feel bad for the people who start now and just walk out into pretty much the same thing they’ll see everywhere on every map.
1. Everyone who says UW combat is terrible is either very bad at games or has serious issues with orientation.
2. I get that NPE is a huge pile of BS but on the other hand who the kitten cares about the first 30-60 mins of the game anyway? So I am on either side, I think the constant complaining is completely exaggerated, but still think what the kitten the developers thought when they introduced this crappy NPE.
Attack Speeds, Damage Coefficients and CDs: In short, every class feels abhorrently weak and under-powered when fighting underwater compared to fighting on land. Even with best in slot aquatic weapons, proper sigils, and a 6th rune on your aquabreather. The only 2 exceptions to this are engineers and to some extent warriors.
In most cases it’s not really true. Underwater mobs are generally weaker, it’s really hard to die, and some skills can be extremely OP compared to aboveground. The main exceptions here are warriors (which do seem to be weaker) and eles (which, while not bad, are not dps kings underwater). Not sure where your feeling of weakness comes from, but it seems to be very subjective.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
- Fix underwater combat: lazy
- Fix dungeons: lazy
- Fix all world bosses: lazy
- Fix “no holy trinity” lack of support role: lazy
- Revamp conditions: lazy
- Fix immobilize bug: lazy
- Fix PvP matchmaking: lazy
- Fix WvW bugs: lazy
- Fix Skyhammer bugs: lazy
- Make build templates: lazy
- Make new PvP maps: lazy
- Make promised in 2013 new legendary skins: lazy
- Make more translations into major languages: lazy
- Make support of Cyrillic and Arabic font ingame: lazy
And here is how Arena.net do their game. They do small PvE updates (LS) with grind maps and grind achievements to fill game with something that is not broken. They make new jumping puzzles to match their 12 years old player base. Also they do Unicorns finishers and Badazar outfits for gem store. Wait isn’t that all other non innovative games are about?
At least they try to do something with HoT. But I bet their jungle verticallity would end up as underwater combat. They had almost the same marketing about underwater combat back in the day.
This was part of Anets ongoing campaign to remove underwater combat from the game.
Their first step was to remove it from PvP
Next they removed it from WvW areas
Then they removed it from some zones through LS
Then they removed it from all the starting zones
Finally they stopped making underwater skins for new weapon sets
Fractals and dungeons are unlikely to ever be changed because Anet hates them already. The other zones will be dead once HoT launches, and I suspect there will be 0 water combat in HoT.
Nobody, and I do mean nobody can challenge a Necro underwater solo and expect to win.
Sure about that? I’m always surprised how much people underestimate me (Mesmer) underwater, in spite of how much the Trident got (rightfully) nerfed.
Mesmers are the toughest for a Necro to beat, but the fight is still in the Necro’s favor underwater. Illusions make prime targets for the faster-casting Epidemic, for example.
The fact content was removed is a waste,a waste of player timeand effort, a waste o programmer time and the NPE has been toxic. It drove of quite a lot of ppl due to them no caring to make another alt.
I do think the reward for the levelling and story improved but all other changes should still be binned and returned to the old system….
I hate gating. I have 17 character slots and 15 lvl 80’s…
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Since all new players are to be treated as if they don’t have full control of…. well… any faculties -AND- they couldn’t be bothered with making GW2 arm floaties for the gemstore — We get this instead.
What’s sad is that for Necromancers, all but the weapons restrictions are the opposite. Improved combo play, faster attack speeds, higher damage, still have high CC (both soft and hard) and good mobility, and even more reliable utilities (in the form of minions) than on land. Nobody, and I do mean nobody can challenge a Necro underwater solo and expect to win.
That would be completely dependent on the necro. I really can’t seem to kill anything with the necro and the ele. I only like the underwater combat on the warrior and ranger. If you fight me with any class, and me on my necro, you’ll be guaranteed a win.
Their first step was to remove it from PvP
Next they removed it from WvW areas
Then they removed it from some zones through LS
Then they removed it from all the starting zones
Finally they stopped making underwater skins for new weapon sets
They didn’t remove underwater combat from the starter zones, just from the lower-level part of them, of which the only meaningful example was the lake in Rata Sum.
Also, I don’t remember the Living Story removing any underwater content.
What’s sad is that for Necromancers, all but the weapons restrictions are the opposite. Improved combo play, faster attack speeds, higher damage, still have high CC (both soft and hard) and good mobility, and even more reliable utilities (in the form of minions) than on land. Nobody, and I do mean nobody can challenge a Necro underwater solo and expect to win.
That would be completely dependent on the necro. I really can’t seem to kill anything with the necro and the ele. I only like the underwater combat on the warrior and ranger. If you fight me with any class, and me on my necro, you’ll be guaranteed a win.
How much do you play Necro? I recall multiple times back when the quaggans were still in the lake in WvW borderlands where I would solo against 1-3 players plus a swarm of Krait and come out on top with ease. Multiple times when a thief ganks me and I’m below half health when I dive into the water (haven’t touched the thief yet) only to demolish the thief entirely.
