Guild Wars 2

mesme.5028:

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

I play these two games pretty much the same way. What we got, from my point of view, was the feel of the world. This world feels to me like that world…and that’s no small thing.

I was an achievement hunter there and I’m an achievement hunter here. That could be part of it. I was grinding achievements in Guild Wars 1 that killed me. The way mapping worked there…scrapping the edge of every zone…ridiculous…but I did it.

I do miss Vanquishing, but I knew in an open world game with respawns that wouldn’t be possible.

In Guild Wars 1 damage mitigation was stronger than healing and the same is true in Guild Wars 2. Neither had ways to hold aggro (there’s no taunt mechanism here, unlike most MMOs). In fact, neither had a true trinity.

I’ve been playing some Guild Wars 1 lately, helping some Guildies through the game and though the mechanics themselves have changed greatly (and I wouldn’t give up jumping again or go back to a more pathed version of the game), the feel I get while playing the two games isn’t really all that different.

mesme.5028:

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

FDS
Races

ummm….

Vayne.8563:

In Guild Wars 1 damage mitigation was stronger than healing and the same is true in Guild Wars 2. Neither had ways to hold aggro (there’s no taunt mechanism here, unlike most MMOs). In fact, neither had a true trinity.

Aggro holding was quite possible in GW1 ( although taunts were not involved). Add in body-blocking and a prot/heals backline and you had a pretty solid semblance of trinity play.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

In Guild Wars 1 damage mitigation was stronger than healing and the same is true in Guild Wars 2. Neither had ways to hold aggro (there’s no taunt mechanism here, unlike most MMOs). In fact, neither had a true trinity.

Aggro holding was quite possible in GW1 ( although taunts were not involved). Add in body-blocking and a prot/heals backline and you had a pretty solid semblance of trinity play.

You couldn’t really “hold aggro though”. I mean enemies went for the healers first…healers or minion masters. It was a good AI mechanism. You could use control effects and you could body block, but it really wasn’t the same thing as holding aggro.

The closest thing I remember to that was how we used to dual farm FoW, the shadow creatures right at the beginning. We’d have a permasin aggro a bunch of them and stay alive. Then an ele would cast non-targeted spells like firestorm and meteor shower to kill them while the sin survived.

While this is technically him holding aggro, you were limited to very very few spells, and if you used any other spell that actually targeted a foe, then he’d go for you.

Vayne.8563:

You couldn’t really “hold aggro though”.

Yes you could.

AI also targeted based on health level. We had tanks that could take and hold aggro regardless of the number of monks or necros in the group. Pushing their health low, while relying on pre-protting, good reactions from both the prot and heal monks, as well as his own defensive array, allowed our alliance’s top tank to hold aggro (and survive) with an almost perfect record (once he had the technique down).

I think you might be thinking of GW2 for your description of firestorm and meteor shower. Both of those required a target in GW1. Only PBAOEs didnt.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

You couldn’t really “hold aggro though”.

Yes you could.

AI also targeted based on health level. We had tanks that could take and hold aggro regardless of the number of monks or necros in the group. Pushing their health low, while relying on pre-protting, good reactions from both the prot and heal monks, as well as his own defensive array, allowed our alliance’s top tank to hold aggro (and survive) with an almost perfect record (once he had the technique down).

Okay I stand corrected on that. I probably didn’t play with parties are organized as yours. But then we never played with tanks and I still beat all the content.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

You couldn’t really “hold aggro though”.

Yes you could.

AI also targeted based on health level. We had tanks that could take and hold aggro regardless of the number of monks or necros in the group. Pushing their health low, while relying on pre-protting, good reactions from both the prot and heal monks, as well as his own defensive array, allowed our alliance’s top tank to hold aggro (and survive) with an almost perfect record (once he had the technique down).

Okay I stand corrected on that. I probably didn’t play with parties are organized as yours. But then we never played with tanks and I still beat all the content.

No worries. It was very counter-intuitive. The lowest health guy in the group acting as tank ? We generally didn’t bother except when doing things like half party vanquishes and the like.

Vayne.8563:

enemies went for the healers first…healers or minion masters.

Necros in general actually….

But yes, yes they did. I was a much better tank on my monk than any war, derv, or sin we took in the party. Why? Cause the AI went ‘MONK! KILL IT!’ Fun kitten.

Hmm…now I desire to go play GW1…

The closest thing I remember to that was how we used to dual farm FoW, the shadow creatures right at the beginning. We’d have a permasin aggro a bunch of them and stay alive. Then an ele would cast non-targeted spells like firestorm and meteor shower to kill them while the sin survived.

While this is technically him holding aggro, you were limited to very very few spells, and if you used any other spell that actually targeted a foe, then he’d go for you.

I preferred duo rit and just walling things in with spirits. Worked for UW and FoW, although those shadow beasts were a pain in the kitten if anything died ‘outside’ of my walled up foes.

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

I play these two games pretty much the same way. What we got, from my point of view, was the feel of the world. This world feels to me like that world…and that’s no small thing.

I was an achievement hunter there and I’m an achievement hunter here. That could be part of it. I was grinding achievements in Guild Wars 1 that killed me. The way mapping worked there…scrapping the edge of every zone…ridiculous…but I did it.

I do miss Vanquishing, but I knew in an open world game with respawns that wouldn’t be possible.

In Guild Wars 1 damage mitigation was stronger than healing and the same is true in Guild Wars 2. Neither had ways to hold aggro (there’s no taunt mechanism here, unlike most MMOs). In fact, neither had a true trinity.

I’ve been playing some Guild Wars 1 lately, helping some Guildies through the game and though the mechanics themselves have changed greatly (and I wouldn’t give up jumping again or go back to a more pathed version of the game), the feel I get while playing the two games isn’t really all that different.

I have seen the wp system and lack of aggro systems in other games so these arn’t unique to gw.

Even gw2 dynamic event’s, knights online, perhaps one of the first mmos had a variation of those.(I know not in gw1 but just saying) same with the aggro.

I don’t get the feeling you do that the world is the same, i loved places like slavers exile, the deep, fow and uw, i still play gw1 the guild im in has a full alliance and we do still play this content and pvp.

I miss heros when i log into gw2 and being fully in control of how a dungeon etc will go,
i do pug some dungeons in gw2, some peeps wont, gw1 you don’t have that problem, i wish there was more from the original game, perhaps more things will be implemented given time, i can only hope, but i did expect more than we got.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

I play these two games pretty much the same way. What we got, from my point of view, was the feel of the world. This world feels to me like that world…and that’s no small thing.

I was an achievement hunter there and I’m an achievement hunter here. That could be part of it. I was grinding achievements in Guild Wars 1 that killed me. The way mapping worked there…scrapping the edge of every zone…ridiculous…but I did it.

I do miss Vanquishing, but I knew in an open world game with respawns that wouldn’t be possible.

In Guild Wars 1 damage mitigation was stronger than healing and the same is true in Guild Wars 2. Neither had ways to hold aggro (there’s no taunt mechanism here, unlike most MMOs). In fact, neither had a true trinity.

I’ve been playing some Guild Wars 1 lately, helping some Guildies through the game and though the mechanics themselves have changed greatly (and I wouldn’t give up jumping again or go back to a more pathed version of the game), the feel I get while playing the two games isn’t really all that different.

I have seen the wp system and lack of aggro systems in other games so these arn’t unique to gw.

Even gw2 dynamic event’s, knights online, perhaps one of the first mmos had a variation of those.(I know not in gw1 but just saying) same with the aggro.

I don’t get the feeling you do that the world is the same, i loved places like slavers exile, the deep, fow and uw, i still play gw1 the guild im in has a full alliance and we do still play this content and pvp.

I miss heros when i log into gw2 and being fully in control of how a dungeon etc will go,
i do pug some dungeons in gw2, some peeps wont, gw1 you don’t have that problem, i wish there was more from the original game, perhaps more things will be implemented given time, i can only hope, but i did expect more than we got.

See, I don’t consider elite instance the world. To me, Kryta feels sort of like Kryta, you know?

I get the whole missing heroes thing, but since I played with guilds and we almost always had enough in Guild Wars 1 for live parties, that didn’t vary much for me either.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

You couldn’t really “hold aggro though”.

Yes you could.

AI also targeted based on health level. We had tanks that could take and hold aggro regardless of the number of monks or necros in the group. Pushing their health low, while relying on pre-protting, good reactions from both the prot and heal monks, as well as his own defensive array, allowed our alliance’s top tank to hold aggro (and survive) with an almost perfect record (once he had the technique down).

I think you might be thinking of GW2 for your description of firestorm and meteor shower. Both of those required a target in GW1. Only PBAOEs didnt.

I didn’t play with tanks either, but interesting, ill mention it in alliance when i log into gw1 next and see if others do

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

I play these two games pretty much the same way. What we got, from my point of view, was the feel of the world. This world feels to me like that world…and that’s no small thing.

I was an achievement hunter there and I’m an achievement hunter here. That could be part of it. I was grinding achievements in Guild Wars 1 that killed me. The way mapping worked there…scrapping the edge of every zone…ridiculous…but I did it.

I do miss Vanquishing, but I knew in an open world game with respawns that wouldn’t be possible.

In Guild Wars 1 damage mitigation was stronger than healing and the same is true in Guild Wars 2. Neither had ways to hold aggro (there’s no taunt mechanism here, unlike most MMOs). In fact, neither had a true trinity.

I’ve been playing some Guild Wars 1 lately, helping some Guildies through the game and though the mechanics themselves have changed greatly (and I wouldn’t give up jumping again or go back to a more pathed version of the game), the feel I get while playing the two games isn’t really all that different.

I have seen the wp system and lack of aggro systems in other games so these arn’t unique to gw.

Even gw2 dynamic event’s, knights online, perhaps one of the first mmos had a variation of those.(I know not in gw1 but just saying) same with the aggro.

I don’t get the feeling you do that the world is the same, i loved places like slavers exile, the deep, fow and uw, i still play gw1 the guild im in has a full alliance and we do still play this content and pvp.

I miss heros when i log into gw2 and being fully in control of how a dungeon etc will go,
i do pug some dungeons in gw2, some peeps wont, gw1 you don’t have that problem, i wish there was more from the original game, perhaps more things will be implemented given time, i can only hope, but i did expect more than we got.

See, I don’t consider elite instance the world. To me, Kryta feels sort of like Kryta, you know?

I get the whole missing heroes thing, but since I played with guilds and we almost always had enough in Guild Wars 1 for live parties, that didn’t vary much for me either.

Yes i do know what you are saying, but when i log into a game i consider everything a part of that world, so i guess just different view point’s.

In a word, “What happened to the manifesto?” – Nothing

• A Manifesto is a desire, a dream, a wishful intention.
• It is NOT a project plan, defined path or an absolute surety

There will inevitably be hurtles, detours and insurmountable obstacles to be overcome. This doesn’t mean your hopes and dreams change, just the path you travel in the effort to achieve that dream.

mesme.5028:

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

Strip the name off and the lore, and what in this game reminds me of the previous one? How deep do we strip the lore, I mean, does me having nostalgia on visiting the ruins of Droknar’s Forge count as “lore” to be taken away?

All the classes had their functions and feel changed. Even Warrior.

Guilds remain, but the Alliance system is gone in favor of trying to make Guilds stronger than “a tag and a cape”, while integrating Guild Halls into the buffs you can call on.

The PvP I stuck my head in briefly felt like Random Arenas mixed with Codex Arena; I had no control over who I got paired with and we all get the same pool of skills to work from similar to Codex Arena. Nothing like Jade Quarry (thank the Six) or Fort Aspenwood (. . . aww), no Alliance Battles or Guild Battles.

The Trait system reminds me of the Attribute system from release (including effort needed to buyback/reset).

So if you were to rip out the lore and file off the name, it plays like a different game. I don’t consider this a complete loss as I barely touched most of the options which got lost. I understand a lot of people had a love for these things but I wasn’t one of them.

Sorry. If we want to talk about what GW1 was to me, it was this:

I can pick it up when I feel like playing and go have some fun messing around in the areas without needing to worry about farming specific drops. Without needing to worry about getting X people together to go camp a rare spawn or an experience farm. I can join in some random people doing something or I can just fool around alone. And I’m not paying $30/month to do so.

Vayne.8563:

People hanging on every single word and then misinterpreting what was said based on their own preconceptions happened.

There is NO mention of gear grind or vertical progression in the manifesto video. None at all. The only way you could possibly think it was mentioned is to ignore everything around it.

What happened is people placed their own definition of grind into the manifesto and decided that’s what Colin meant when he was talking about grind, when in reality Colin already defined what he was talking about…and later clarified it in other places.

And you’re once again focusing on the narrow-scope of the Manifesto rather than the spirit behind it AND the interviews and blogs that were released. I understand why you’d use such a tactic, as your position becomes much less tenable when looking at the big picture. Just know the Manifesto doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

mesme.5028:

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

Inb4 we get some retroactive continuity due to the biased human perspective of Guild Wars, as to further the forced Salad agenda.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

People hanging on every single word and then misinterpreting what was said based on their own preconceptions happened.

There is NO mention of gear grind or vertical progression in the manifesto video. None at all. The only way you could possibly think it was mentioned is to ignore everything around it.

What happened is people placed their own definition of grind into the manifesto and decided that’s what Colin meant when he was talking about grind, when in reality Colin already defined what he was talking about…and later clarified it in other places.

And you’re once again focusing on the narrow-scope of the Manifesto rather than the spirit behind it AND the interviews and blogs that were released. I understand why you’d use such a tactic, as your position becomes much less tenable when looking at the big picture. Just know the Manifesto doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

Sorry mate, but this thread is about the manifesto, not about other interviews. The SPIRIT of the manifesto, what it was REALLY talking about, has not changed, other than one single line about Guild Wars 1. One line. Period. The rest of the spirit of the manifesto, completely 100% unchanged. What was it saying, the manifesto video itself, not anything else, because this thread isn’t about anything else.

It’s about fun things to do without grinding to get to them. In later weeks and months after the manifesto was published, Colin used the Shadow Behemoth and an example of what he meant. Is that in the game? Check.

It’s about active/dynamic combat, where you have to move around instead of standing there casting. Is that in the game? Check.

It’s about beautiful, detailed, rich environments. Is that in the game? In spades.

It’s about dynamic events and personal story…both of which are in the game.

There is a single line, a throwaway marketing line, that couldn’t possibly have ever stood up to scrutiny….“everything you love about Guild Wars 1”. Everything else in the MANIFESTO is there.

The spirit of the manifesto hasn’t changed. You take away the ideas players have superimposed over it, based on other stuff said and the manifesto…that’s still there.

There are maybe, MAYBE five other quotes over years and years and years of promotions which have changed completely. Yes, we all know they’ve changed. Every single person in this forums should know by now that those things have changed.

But then no one quotes Eric Flannum saying there would be stuff for people to grind for for those who like that play style. No one quotes the iteration passages.

Vertical progression existed in this game at launch. Things to grind for, including power, existed in Guild Wars 1 before the manifesto was ever made.

Yes, things have changed, but not nearly as much as people think they have.

And a lot of the changes were annouced long before launch and people knew about them and bought the game anyway.

The spirit of the manifesto itself? That’s not changed at all.

Judge Banks.9018:

mesme.5028:

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

Inb4 we get some retroactive continuity due to the biased human perspective of Guild Wars, as to further the forced Salad agenda.

I said it all along, Sylvari are not to be trusted !!!

Vayne.8563:

It’s about fun things to do without grinding to get to them.

So if I want to play through Arah explorable (a fun thing) with my level 11 Guardian (leveling him is a grind) I can ?

Or would I have to grind to get to the fun thing ?

See, the whole argument about the Manifesto is subjective. The people arguing that it was not delivered upon are every bit as correct as you are in claiming that it has.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

It’s about fun things to do without grinding to get to them.

So if I want to play through Arah explorable (a fun thing) with my level 11 Guardian (leveling him is a grind) I can ?

Or would I have to grind to get to the fun thing ?

See, the whole argument about the Manifesto is subjective. The people arguing that it was not delivered upon are every bit as correct as you are in claiming that it has.

Actually it’s not subjective. He’s not saying that you can do everything fun in the game from the moment you launch. He’s saying you don’t have to get through 80 levels of boring grind to get to fun stuff. This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

And remember, it wasn’t a zerg thing when this game launched. Before they gave guaranteed rares, those encounters were fun. People demanded better rewards and Anet gave them to them.

But the core concept of the piece, we want to change the way people view combat hasn’t changed at all. The same sorts of things you do at level 80 you can do at level 30.

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying you don’t have to get through 80 levels of boring grind to get to fun stuff.

Then he would be wrong according to my example right ?

Playing through those 80 levels would be a boring grind to get to what is fun.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying you don’t have to get through 80 levels of boring grind to get to fun stuff.

Then he would be wrong according to my example right ?

Playing through those 80 levels would be a boring grind to get to what is fun.

Only if Arah were the only fun stuff in the game. Again, he’s not saying you don’t have to level to get to ALL the fun stuff. He’s saying fun stuff is there right from the beginning. I know this because it was reiterated several times afterwards at conventions. That’s what he meant.

You can twist it any way you want, but it’s not reasonable to assume that you can do everything when you start..there would be some skill progression involved at very least. One part of the game trains you to play the next part of the game. That’s why there are harder and easier zones. No one could start the game and do Lupi on day one. It would be impossible.

But he said there’s fun stuff to do right away, not that all fun stuff can be done right away. You’re deliberately misinterpreting it to try to make a point.

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Vayne.8563:

It’s about active/dynamic combat, where you have to move around instead of standing there casting. Is that in the game? Check.

Lol no.

Stacking exist.

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

I especially like how you skipped over the getting to level 15 to do it part and went straight for the combat.

Indeed a nice job. But do follow through on all points of a post, not just the one you can defend the best.

And yes. I do like how for 90% of the game’s content, I can stack and repeatedly hit my 1 key and then 2 – 5 as a refresher every 30s. And when I see red circles beneath me, I double tap my movement keys to dodge. AND THEN! Back to beloved stacking and 1 key serial abuse. It has revolutionized combat so much. Because sometimes, I can even hit 1 and AFK for a few minutes and answer a text, type an email, check Facebook, or even make a phone call. Free my hands.

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ -Captain Smilez

What would one say is the equivalent of Quarter Knocking or Quarter Stepping in Guild Wars 2? Dancing with your weapon out? Stacking legendary auras?

Call me when the combat is strong enough to foster emergent gameplay.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying you don’t have to get through 80 levels of boring grind to get to fun stuff.

Then he would be wrong according to my example right ?

Playing through those 80 levels would be a boring grind to get to what is fun.

Only if Arah were the only fun stuff in the game. Again, he’s not saying you don’t have to level to get to ALL the fun stuff. He’s saying fun stuff is there right from the beginning. I know this because it was reiterated several times afterwards at conventions. That’s what he meant.

You can twist it any way you want, but it’s not reasonable to assume that you can do everything when you start..there would be some skill progression involved at very least. One part of the game trains you to play the next part of the game. That’s why there are harder and easier zones. No one could start the game and do Lupi on day one. It would be impossible.

But he said there’s fun stuff to do right away, not that all fun stuff can be done right away. You’re deliberately misinterpreting it to try to make a point.

I am not misinterpreting anything. My statement is very simple as is my example. In order to do what would be fun on my guardian I would have to endure boring grind. Period. Leveling him is a boring grind, and nothing in the game at his current level is fun. Technically the lower level dungeons might substitute for Arah or HotW (my personal favorite) but in order to do ANY of the fun things, ANY AT ALL, requires boring grind first in order to get to it.

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

I especially like how you skipped over the getting to level 15 to do it part and went straight for the combat.

Indeed a nice job. But do follow through on all points of a post, not just the one you can defend the best.

And yes. I do like how for 90% of the game’s content, I can stack and repeatedly hit my 1 key and then 2 – 5 as a refresher every 30s. And when I see red circles beneath me, I double tap my movement keys to dodge. AND THEN! Back to beloved stacking and 1 key serial abuse. It has revolutionized combat so much. Because sometimes, I can even hit 1 and AFK for a few minutes and answer a text, type an email, check Facebook, or even make a phone call. Free my hands.

I didn’t realize that you had to be level 15 to join in on the Shadow Behemoth. Does that boss lock you out if you’re below level 15? If not, then why couldn’t you do it before then?

Ashen.2907:

I am not misinterpreting anything. My statement is very simple as is my example. In order to do what would be fun on my guardian I would have to endure boring grind. Period. Leveling him is a boring grind, and nothing in the game at his current level is fun. Technically the lower level dungeons might substitute for Arah or HotW (my personal favorite) but in order to do ANY of the fun things, ANY AT ALL, requires boring grind first in order to get to it.

And that isn’t different than every other MMO once the new MMO smell wears off how? If you don’t like your guardian roll something else. If you don’t like the game any longer then don’t play and move onto another game.

But I can’t think of an MMO that I’ve played that didn’t have a particular level range that was uninteresting or was frustrating for the class I’m running. But at least here you can always go play in an already done area doing content that you had enjoyed to level up.

And yes some professions are a pain to play in the lower levels. Not every profession will feel powerful from level 1 to 80 in all content. And they shouldn’t because then it doesn’t matter what you play.

Edit: I’m having a hard time saying that all MMOs I’ve played included boring level ranges and frustrating level ranges for every class. But that’s the nature of the genre.

TChalla.7146:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

I especially like how you skipped over the getting to level 15 to do it part and went straight for the combat.

Indeed a nice job. But do follow through on all points of a post, not just the one you can defend the best.

And yes. I do like how for 90% of the game’s content, I can stack and repeatedly hit my 1 key and then 2 – 5 as a refresher every 30s. And when I see red circles beneath me, I double tap my movement keys to dodge. AND THEN! Back to beloved stacking and 1 key serial abuse. It has revolutionized combat so much. Because sometimes, I can even hit 1 and AFK for a few minutes and answer a text, type an email, check Facebook, or even make a phone call. Free my hands.

I didn’t realize that you had to be level 15 to join in on the Shadow Behemoth. Does that boss lock you out if you’re below level 15? If not, then why couldn’t you do it before then?

You can do it before then. If you get hit, you can be one-shotted where higher level characters won’t be. You likely won’t hurt it much, so getting more than bronze credit is unlikely. Also, the rewards will be level appropriate for you, so whether it’s worth doing is up to you.

Behellagh.1468:

And that isn’t different than every other MMO once the new MMO smell wears off how?

It isn’t any different. That was part of my point.

TChalla.7146:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

I especially like how you skipped over the getting to level 15 to do it part and went straight for the combat.

Indeed a nice job. But do follow through on all points of a post, not just the one you can defend the best.

And yes. I do like how for 90% of the game’s content, I can stack and repeatedly hit my 1 key and then 2 – 5 as a refresher every 30s. And when I see red circles beneath me, I double tap my movement keys to dodge. AND THEN! Back to beloved stacking and 1 key serial abuse. It has revolutionized combat so much. Because sometimes, I can even hit 1 and AFK for a few minutes and answer a text, type an email, check Facebook, or even make a phone call. Free my hands.

I didn’t realize that you had to be level 15 to join in on the Shadow Behemoth. Does that boss lock you out if you’re below level 15? If not, then why couldn’t you do it before then?

Like Indigo said, doing it below the level equates tons of frustration and kitten rewards, if you do enough damage to even get the chest. Neither of which are much “fun”.

I’ll make an argument more valid and not just being snarky (which I have to apologize because I was being snarky at the time).

Using the Shadow Behemoth as the example, which can legitimately be done at level 15, you are technically correct that there is a bit of leveling that you have to complete before you do it. However, getting one character to level 15 (because you only need one level 15 character to reach level 15 to do it) can’t really be considered a grind, since if you don’t plan on doing any leveling in the game, why are you playing in the first place? And if the answer is PvP, you probably wouldn’t be doing the Shadow Behemoth anyway.

So… there is still no grind to do that content.

Ashen.2907:

Behellagh.1468:

And that isn’t different than every other MMO once the new MMO smell wears off how?

It isn’t any different. That was part of my point.

Well it is different in one case, which is why I came in the first place to ANet’s games: I don’t have to pay $##/mo to play, nor get “nickel and dimed” on microtransactions to “stay in the game”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well it is different in one case, which is why I came in the first place to ANet’s games: I don’t have to pay $##/mo to play, nor get “nickel and dimed” on microtransactions to “stay in the game”.

Sorry, that was a reference to leveling up to get to level gated content. I absolutely love GW2’s financial model.

Ashen.2907:

Sorry, that was a reference to leveling up to get to level gated content. I absolutely love GW2’s financial model.

Can’t attest to level gating, I’m still having Everquest flashbacks when people talk about that sort of thing.

Of course, it still has almost nothing on “omg wtf” experiences of console RPGs in that score Mmm, the first time in Dragon Warrior when I went too far north and had a Magician shove a hand down my throat and show me my pancreas.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying you don’t have to get through 80 levels of boring grind to get to fun stuff.

Then he would be wrong according to my example right ?

Playing through those 80 levels would be a boring grind to get to what is fun.

Only if Arah were the only fun stuff in the game. Again, he’s not saying you don’t have to level to get to ALL the fun stuff. He’s saying fun stuff is there right from the beginning. I know this because it was reiterated several times afterwards at conventions. That’s what he meant.

You can twist it any way you want, but it’s not reasonable to assume that you can do everything when you start..there would be some skill progression involved at very least. One part of the game trains you to play the next part of the game. That’s why there are harder and easier zones. No one could start the game and do Lupi on day one. It would be impossible.

But he said there’s fun stuff to do right away, not that all fun stuff can be done right away. You’re deliberately misinterpreting it to try to make a point.

I am not misinterpreting anything. My statement is very simple as is my example. In order to do what would be fun on my guardian I would have to endure boring grind. Period. Leveling him is a boring grind, and nothing in the game at his current level is fun. Technically the lower level dungeons might substitute for Arah or HotW (my personal favorite) but in order to do ANY of the fun things, ANY AT ALL, requires boring grind first in order to get to it.

No, Sir. In order to have fun on your guardian you just have to play the game. Again YOU don’t like the combat, so to you, combat is the grind. I LOVE the combat, and so I’m never grinding when I combat.

He was talking about the way people view combat. That’s it. He’s saying it’s no longer a grind to get to fun stuff. Now you can disagree with him by saying you personally don’t like the combat, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s not talking about vertical progression and he’s not talking about gear grind, which is what most people are trying to say.

He’s actually talking about the combat itself being fun. Which means either Anet was or wasn’t successful in doing that, but they certainly were saying that.

I think enough people find the combat fun in this game that you couldn’t call them on lying. The most you could do is say that you don’t find it fun, and that’s perfectly fine. Not everyone will connect with every game.

But that’s not what people have been saying in this thread.

Skan.5301:

TChalla.7146:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

I especially like how you skipped over the getting to level 15 to do it part and went straight for the combat.

Indeed a nice job. But do follow through on all points of a post, not just the one you can defend the best.

And yes. I do like how for 90% of the game’s content, I can stack and repeatedly hit my 1 key and then 2 – 5 as a refresher every 30s. And when I see red circles beneath me, I double tap my movement keys to dodge. AND THEN! Back to beloved stacking and 1 key serial abuse. It has revolutionized combat so much. Because sometimes, I can even hit 1 and AFK for a few minutes and answer a text, type an email, check Facebook, or even make a phone call. Free my hands.

I didn’t realize that you had to be level 15 to join in on the Shadow Behemoth. Does that boss lock you out if you’re below level 15? If not, then why couldn’t you do it before then?

Like Indigo said, doing it below the level equates tons of frustration and kitten rewards, if you do enough damage to even get the chest. Neither of which are much “fun”.

But that wasn’t the case when the manifesto was written. The change to this wasn’t ANet going back on a promise. The change that made it this way was Anet, get this, LISTENING to their fan base, who said that meta events should reward people better. Anet listened. If you don’t think people were asking for better rewards for metas and champions you weren’t paying much attention.

So for months after launch, you could do it and get credit for it. There weren’t even timer sites back then.

Now it’s another situation but did that make the manifesto a lie? No, Anet responded to the requests of the player base.

Vayne.8563:

No, Sir. In order to have fun on your guardian you just have to play the game.

It is a bit odd of you to claim to know what I find fun better than I do. I can assure you that you are wrong.

Vayne.8563:

Again YOU don’t like the combat, so to you, combat is the grind. I LOVE the combat, and so I’m never grinding when I combat.

Again you claim to know what I like/don’t like (you are mistaken).

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying it’s no longer a grind to get to fun stuff.

And yet sometimes it is.

I did not say anything about vertical progression. I did not say anything about gear grind. I pointed out that this aspect of the manifesto is subjective because one person might not have to grind to get to the fun stuff while another person will. Since fun is subjective the claim that it’s no longer a grind to get to fun stuff cannot be anything but subjective as well.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

No, Sir. In order to have fun on your guardian you just have to play the game.

It is a bit odd of you to claim to know what I find fun better than I do. I can assure you that you are wrong.

Vayne.8563:

Again YOU don’t like the combat, so to you, combat is the grind. I LOVE the combat, and so I’m never grinding when I combat.

Again you claim to know what I like/don’t like (you are mistaken).

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying it’s no longer a grind to get to fun stuff.

And yet sometimes it is.

I did not say anything about vertical progression. I did not say anything about gear grind. I pointed out that this aspect of the manifesto is subjective because one person might not have to grind to get to the fun stuff while another person will. Since fun is subjective the claim that it’s no longer a grind to get to fun stuff cannot be anything but subjective as well.

It’s not me telling you what to like or not like, you miss the point. Anyone who’s not being disingenuous knows full well that fun is a matter of personal taste. What one person finds fun another person doesn’t.

What you’re doing is trying to say the devs were wrong or misleading for calling their game fun, because you don’t find if fun…specifically the combat in their game. That’s like a company saying their car looks good, and you saying they’re wrong because you don’t like how it looks. Sure you can have a contrary opinion, but it doesn’t mean the company has gone back on it’s word. It’s rather that you just don’t like it.

Now, the thread is about “what ever happened to the manifesto” and the implication in most of the early posts in this thread and indeed some later ones is that Anet has somehow gone back on their word. When in reality what has happened is that a bunch of people have made certain assumptions about what was meant.

If you want to say I don’t enjoy the combat in Guild Wars 2 so the manifesto isn’t true for me, I support that 100%. Of course, you should have known pretty fast that you don’t like the combat and you six months to get a refund and go play another game, and then by posting here, you’re essentially just being contrary.

My point is not changed at all by you liking or not liking the combat, nor is it changed by you having fun or not having fun. The point is is that there’s no great change in either case from the day the manifesto was written and published till now.

It might not hold true for someone who doesn’t like what Anet was trying to do…but they did in fact try to do something and continue to try to do it. A manifesto is a statement of intent. They may have failed you specifically, but that’s not a lie, and that’s what’s been implied by many people throughout this thread.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not me telling you what to like or not like, you miss the point. Anyone who’s not being disingenuous knows full well that fun is a matter of personal taste. What one person finds fun another person doesn’t.

And yet you told me what would be fun for me after I said that it wasn’t.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re doing is trying to say the devs were wrong or misleading for calling their game fun, because you don’t find if fun…specifically the combat in their game. That’s like a company saying their car looks good, and you saying they’re wrong because you don’t like how it looks. Sure you can have a contrary opinion, but it doesn’t mean the company has gone back on it’s word. It’s rather that you just don’t like it.

What I said was that this aspect of the manifesto was subjective. That for some people it was true and that for others it was not. You said that it was not subjective. A claim that something is not subjective is a claim that it is objective. You keep claiming that I do not like the combat. I keep pointing out that you are wrong. As you have been informed of the truth (that I do not dislike the combat) why do you keep making this dishonest claim ? Why do you claim to know better than I do what I do and do not like ?

Vayne.8563:

If you want to say I don’t enjoy the combat in Guild Wars 2 so the manifesto isn’t true for me, I support that 100%. Of course, you should have known pretty fast that you don’t like the combat and you six months to get a refund and go play another game, and then by posting here, you’re essentially just being contrary..

Yet again comments about me not liking the combat in GW2 when I have pointed out that this is not the case.

Still I wonder. When I claimed that the grind to get to the fun part of the manifesto is true for some and not true for others you did not support that 100%. You claimed that it was not subjective which means that you were claiming that it was true for everyone. Hardly 100% support for someone saying that it, “isn’t true for me.”

Vayne.8563:

My point is not changed at all by you liking or not liking the combat, nor is it changed by you having fun or not having fun. The point is is that there’s no great change in either case from the day the manifesto was written and published till now.

It might not hold true for someone who doesn’t like what Anet was trying to do…but they did in fact try to do something and continue to try to do it. A manifesto is a statement of intent. They may have failed you specifically, but that’s not a lie, and that’s what’s been implied by many people throughout this thread.

I made no claim that they lied here. I merely stated that this particular aspect was subjective, that some people did have to go through boring grind to get to the fun stuff even if some people did not. You then stated that it was not subjective.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not me telling you what to like or not like, you miss the point. Anyone who’s not being disingenuous knows full well that fun is a matter of personal taste. What one person finds fun another person doesn’t.

And yet you told me what would be fun for me after I said that it wasn’t.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re doing is trying to say the devs were wrong or misleading for calling their game fun, because you don’t find if fun…specifically the combat in their game. That’s like a company saying their car looks good, and you saying they’re wrong because you don’t like how it looks. Sure you can have a contrary opinion, but it doesn’t mean the company has gone back on it’s word. It’s rather that you just don’t like it.

What I said was that this aspect of the manifesto was subjective. That for some people it was true and that for others it was not. You said that it was not subjective. A claim that something is not subjective is a claim that it is objective. You keep claiming that I do not like the combat. I keep pointing out that you are wrong. As you have been informed of the truth (that I do not dislike the combat) why do you keep making this dishonest claim ? Why do you claim to know better than I do what I do and do not like ?

Vayne.8563:

If you want to say I don’t enjoy the combat in Guild Wars 2 so the manifesto isn’t true for me, I support that 100%. Of course, you should have known pretty fast that you don’t like the combat and you six months to get a refund and go play another game, and then by posting here, you’re essentially just being contrary..

Yet again comments about me not liking the combat in GW2 when I have pointed out that this is not the case.

Still I wonder. When I claimed that the grind to get to the fun part of the manifesto is true for some and not true for others you did not support that 100%. You claimed that it was not subjective which means that you were claiming that it was true for everyone. Hardly 100% support for someone saying that it, “isn’t true for me.”

Vayne.8563:

My point is not changed at all by you liking or not liking the combat, nor is it changed by you having fun or not having fun. The point is is that there’s no great change in either case from the day the manifesto was written and published till now.

It might not hold true for someone who doesn’t like what Anet was trying to do…but they did in fact try to do something and continue to try to do it. A manifesto is a statement of intent. They may have failed you specifically, but that’s not a lie, and that’s what’s been implied by many people throughout this thread.

I made no claim that they lied here. I merely stated that this particular aspect was subjective, that some people did have to go through boring grind to get to the fun stuff even if some people did not. You then stated that it was not subjective.

You initially responded to me and my response was to people that were saying Anet lied. If you don’t like the game they produced, that’s perfectly reasonable. But your’e coming into the conversation at the end and trying to shift my point.

My point is people are misquoting and misconstruing that’s there. You’re actually supporting what I"m saying even fi you’re saying it means something else. That’s fine. You’ve helped me greatly with these posts.

Now you’re arguing along different lines that I was arguing originally. I’m quite happy to listen to you say that you think a subjective fun in fact could be an objective fun.

Anet said there would be fun things to do and that combat would be fun. That’s true for lots of people. There is no way conceivable that could be an objective statement and no one could in good conscience take it that way. They created something they felt people would have fun with and enough people do to make me say that’s fine.

Those people who don’t think combat is fun, that’s cool too. I’m sure they can find a game where they think combat is fun. Everyone should then be happy.

Go back and watch the Manifesto, forget what you know and think you know, what actually stands up in the light of day?

Forget the, oh they meant it this way, not that way, watch it and see.

mesme.5028:

Go back and watch the Manifesto, forget what you know and think you know, what actually stands up in the light of day?

Forget the, oh they meant it this way, not that way, watch it and see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZqw12hkdEc

I did watch it. And you know…my opinion hasn’t changed, because I originally interpreted it to mean what I think it means today. So it’s the same for me.

mesme.5028:

Go back and watch the Manifesto, forget what you know and think you know, what actually stands up in the light of day?

Forget the, oh they meant it this way, not that way, watch it and see.

Do you really want me to do this? Because I will do this and you will not like it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

Go back and watch the Manifesto, forget what you know and think you know, what actually stands up in the light of day?

Forget the, oh they meant it this way, not that way, watch it and see.

Do you really want me to do this? Because I will do this and you will not like it.

Go for it.

This thread really needs to be locked. The dead horse has been beaten into mush. If you think Anet lied that badly on the manifesto and it upsets you that much, go play other MMO’s that are much worse than this one. Thanks.

Mike O’Brien: “We founded ArenaNet to innovate, so Guild Wars 2 is our opportunity to question everything, to make a game that defies existing conventions. If you love MMOs, you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMOs, you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world that’s got more active combat, a fully-branching, personalized storyline, a new event system to get people playing together, and still no monthly fees.”

Well, I so far haven’t seen anything worth calling out. Sure the storyline isn’t really “personalized” after the first two chapters, but the rest actually holds up.

Daniel Dociu: “The look of Guild Wars 2 is stylized. We’re going for a painterly, illustrated aesthetic. Everything in our world feels handcrafted and artisanal. We treat our environments as if they are characters themselves.”

Oh, right, this must be where I need to jump up and down . . . nah, just joking. The world’s beautiful to look at and it is definitely nicer to look at than GW1’s burned out husk of Old Ascalon. God I got tired of staring at that place, it was ugly.

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

Well, he is wrong, I have seen combat like this. Capcom’s done it in “Monster Hunter” . . . right down to the greatswords. Man I wish I could get the gang back together and go tear up some Rajang or Fatalis. Actually, scratch that, Fatalis was boring as heck.

Ree Soesbee: “As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the same thing you are doing. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later. It doesn’t care that I’m there.”

Valid points. Man I really wish the Shatterer would just stay gone rather than another one getting created by this great and powerful Dragon to send after me. Then I could only fight it once in the first three days of the game and if I missed it, never see it again.

Colin Johanson: “You’ll get quest text that tells you ’I’m being attacked by these horrible things,’ and it’s not actually happening. In the game world, these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field, and you get a quest step that says ‘Go kill ten centaurs.’ We don’t think that’s OK. You see what’s happening. You see centaurs running to the trading post, knocking the walls down, burning and killing the merchants.”

That’s total crap, I never see centaurs killing merchants. Usually they have the good sense to run before the centaurs get there. It’s the farmers of Beetletun and the residents of Nebo Terrace who die when the centaurs come knocking. Pfft, trading post. Totally full of it.

Ree Soesbee: “We do not want to build the same MMO everyone else is building, and in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world. It’s your story. You affect things around you in a very permanent way.”

If only. I’m sure the old Lion’s Arch lighthouse is going to magically fix itself. Or that Ancient Karka doesn’t stay down. Of course, thanks to players having a lot of issue with one time events like those I guess this really is one of those lies. Since, you know, we complained and they stopped . . . totally broke their promises there with no influence from us.

Colin Johanson: “Cause and effect: A single decision made by a player cascades out in a chain of events.”

Really ill-defined and if they really don’t work on this soon I bet it’ll be a problem later. Absolutely nothing we do has ever caused anything like that. I mean, people deciding to not bother with Gendarran Fields anymore has absolutely no effect on things there.

Ree Soesbee: “You’re meeting new people whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, who then remember you. The most important thing in any game should be the player. We have built a game for them.”

Well, I did rescue Shaemoor and they still remember me for it. (Somehow.) So let’s mark that down as “yes”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

-snip-

Nicely done.

Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, who else wants to give a shot of the Manifesto breakdown?

Note: I’m not saying Tobias is right or wrong. Basically, it’s what he thinks and he’s given examples of why.