Guild Wars 2

Are you all fine with grinding now? Because this event is absolutely atrocious.

There have never been a “no grind” philosophy.

There have been (and still is) “no need to grind in order to access content philosophy”.

It always comes back to “They only meant you wouldn’t have to grind levels or new tiers of gear”
Everything else is fair game.

Everytime this topic comes up people forget the context around the whole “no grind” statement. They never said no grind, they said you wouldn’t need to grind to get the the gear you need to complete all of the content. They enver talked about there being no optional grind (for cosmetics and such, not extra power)

Went out the window with the manifesto a long time ago.

It boils down to Arena.net having a very specific definition of “grind” that doesn’t entirely mesh with what gamers have come to define the term.

Well, we can’t say there is “no grind” for gear, because despite what they claim (re: material farming) ascended is completely a grind.

But, yes, there is essentially no grind in order to simply play through the game’s content. Grind only comes into it when you’re chasing those cosmetics and legendaries, and that’s perfectly ok.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Are you all fine with grinding now? Because this event is absolutely atrocious.

Anets no grind philosophy always only applied to ‘no gear treadmill’. Everything past that is fair game to them

Ha, lol. No such thing as grinding? Karma train, zerk train, chest train, shovel train etc … grind grind grind.
We also don’t have attunement. We called it Masteries
No, no kill 10 rats quest. We have Heart system, go kill bunch of skritts fill up a bar on your top right. As if there is much difference.
Dynamic events, revolutionary. Reality, heavily scripted events.
Bottom line, don’t believe everything they tell you.

Everything in the game has some sort of grind to it if you think about it. But ask yourself, does this make you a better player? Does it increase your stats? You don’t need it but it’s there if you want it. The halo/horns are one of those items which says you were playing way back then or “I grinded hard for this” its bragging rights items not really needed but nice to have like legendaries. #swagwars2

dsslive.8473:

They enver talked about there being no optional grind (for cosmetics and such, not extra power)

Since fashion/cosmetics is GW2´s true endgame, you could argue that grinding for cosmetics is not really optional for a lot of players =P

You still don’t have to stand at the same spot killing the same mobs for 50 hours
just to make ONE MORE LEVEL .. like in real grinders like the original Lineage 2.

Thats all they said .. farming for some stuff takes time but is totally optional.

Anet defined grind so that nothing in their game could ever be defined as a grind, while in reality you would need to grind much more than any other game in existence.

And people will actually defend this like you were trying to murder their child.

Good luck.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Anet defined grind so that nothing in their game could ever be defined as a grind, while in reality you would need to grind much more than any other game in existence.

And people will actually defend this like you were trying to murder their child.

Good luck.

You have clearly played very few games. There are a rather large amount of game that are waaaaay more grind than GW2.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Anet defined grind so that nothing in their game could ever be defined as a grind, while in reality you would need to grind much more than any other game in existence.

And people will actually defend this like you were trying to murder their child.

Good luck.

Lmao If you think grinding in gw2 is worse than any game in existence then you probably didn’t play much games at all. Grind in gw2 is mostly for cosmetics and the grind is a choice. If you complain about little things like that when you have a choice to not do it makes it seem like you’re a whiny lil kitten irl tbh.

lordkrall.7241:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Anet defined grind so that nothing in their game could ever be defined as a grind, while in reality you would need to grind much more than any other game in existence.

And people will actually defend this like you were trying to murder their child.

Good luck.

You have clearly played very few games. There are a rather large amount of game that are waaaaay more grind than GW2.

Saying that doesn’t make GW2 not or any less grindy lol. Look it’s mmorpg grind is in the blood. GW2 is grindy too, no exception.
Calling stuffs optional not gonna work too. It has always been optional to grind in any grindy games, you can always quit lol. Grind is grind, it’s mmorpg. GW2 is no exception.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Anet defined grind so that nothing in their game could ever be defined as a grind, while in reality you would need to grind much more than any other game in existence.

And people will actually defend this like you were trying to murder their child.

Good luck.

Let me guess you only played hello kitty and angry birds. The grind in guild wars 2 is nothing. Leveling is easy, crafting gear is easier. You don’t put in 12 hours a day and still have no gear to show for.

> Goes in game

> Sees event that gives nothing but cosmetic shinies but requires work

>"I thought GW2 had no griend!"

Whining. Not everything in life comes easy. Especially cosmetic trivialities.

^^^^

Case and point. Sorry I killed all your children.

Played WoW, LOTRO, SWTOR, SWG, RIFT, and TERA.

GW2 is significantly more grindy than all of them.

queue people telling me that doing a 2 hour raid once a week is somehow more grindy than collecting 20,000 dungeon tokens to unlock a single set of weapons. lol

ZudetGambeous.9573:

^^^^

Case and point. Sorry I killed all your children.

Played WoW, LOTRO, SWTOR, SWG, RIFT, and TERA.

GW2 is significantly more grindy than all of them.

queue people telling me that doing a 2 hour raid once a week is somehow more grindy than collecting 20,000 dungeon tokens to unlock a single set of weapons. lol

Not sure when 6150 tokens became 20,000…. Did the cost of dungeon weapons suddenly triple?

Also you mentioned LOTRO? I have never played a game that required as much grind simply to level up as LOTRO requires.

Maybe you should check your facts before replying…

ZudetGambeous.9573:

^^^^

Case and point. Sorry I killed all your children.

Played WoW, LOTRO, SWTOR, SWG, RIFT, and TERA.

GW2 is significantly more grindy than all of them.

queue people telling me that doing a 2 hour raid once a week is somehow more grindy than collecting 20,000 dungeon tokens to unlock a single set of weapons. lol

Interesting.

I played WoW before it was casualized.
I tried RIFT as a WoW alternative.
I played Aoin before it was ‘Westernized’
I played SWtOR just after it went free to play
I attempted TERA.

I find GW2 to be, by far, less grindy than all the above. Most likely it has to do with how you play as opposed to how I play.

I find it interesting that you cite a raid, which you could only do once a week, as your comparison piece though. How about comparing dungeons to dungeons. The weapons you cite for GW2 are primarily desired for cosmetic and achievement purposes. People rarely go after the whole set unless they are collecting, and that’s entirely optional. WoW dungeons on the other hand required grind in order to achieve armor of a high enough stat rating to just progress the kitten game. Outside of fractals (and it’s agony requirements) no such requirement exists here.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Are you all fine with grinding now? Because this event is absolutely atrocious.

Should I even bother with this event?

believe.6514:

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Are you all fine with grinding now? Because this event is absolutely atrocious.

Should I even bother with this event?

If(haveHalo()==TRUE)
{
no();
}
else
{
yes();
}

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Let’s talk about how GW2 as a whole is grindy instead of the event like * the topic thread specified-

No.

The event isn’t grindy. I also hate it, but it isnt grindy.

I’m fine with it requiring actual work. It’s temporary and some of the prizes are decent. Do it or dont, makes no diff unless you want the halo.

The argument for GW2 is not grindy because everything is optional is getting old, seriously.

In game like WoW, Rift, etc like you guys mentioned. End game is defined, which is Raid. Yes it’s grindy.

GW2 has lack of definition when it comes to end game.
If one see Legendaries as endgame, yes it’s grindy as hell too.
Fashion wise, skins need golds, need tokens, grindy too.
Achievement Points hunters, yes grindy.
If you don’t aim for anything in GW2, of course it’s not grindy. So does for ppl who play Wow, level up max and call it.

The excuse for it being optional just doesn’t cut it. GW2 is grindy, it’s mmorpg, if you really wanted to achieve anything in the game.

How would you ever get players to stay in a game if there was no grind? The only other option for slow progression in a game are time-locked items, which is even worse than grind imo. If you got everything you wanted easily no one would play the game.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

^^^^

Case and point. Sorry I killed all your children.

Played WoW, LOTRO, SWTOR, SWG, RIFT, and TERA.

GW2 is significantly more grindy than all of them.

queue people telling me that doing a 2 hour raid once a week is somehow more grindy than collecting 20,000 dungeon tokens to unlock a single set of weapons. lol

True. But the two big difference is

1) The grind is optional. I can do all content without a grind. Some can argue about fractal 50, but even there is situation is debatable and I don’t even consider it a grind now since it’s so easy to get a ascended chest and to convert it to the right stats. I grind if I want, If I don’t want? I can do something else. Other game require you to grind in order to gain access to new content. There is mastery that could be view as a non optional grind since you need it to complete the raids, but you gain xp from pretty much everything you can do in the game except the current Invasion ; ), so you can do about anything to unlock it.

2) Your stuff don’t get obsolete. I grinded for my ascended armor (kind of) and it will be the best armor in the game stats wise for ever. Over time I can have more and more armor for different characters and over the years I can go for other things. I don’t need to grind for a new armor that will make my old armor obsolete. What I grinded in GW2 stay revelant over the years, update and expansions.

Yes GW2 is really really grindy. But it’s done in such a way that it fit me way better than any of those other games.

No, Pino. They gave a definition of end game (at launch). They specifically started that ‘the entire game is endgame;’ however, that means different things to different people. Additionally, not everyone knows how to ‘direct’ themselves, considering we are used to games doing it for us. Those things (in conjunction with several other things) have led Anet to give us more specific types of end game – raiding, mastery building, extended fractals, etc.

Grind in and of itself is not something bad. The trick is to make the grind enjoyable and diversified so that it doesn´t actually feel like “grinding” and for the most part GW2 does a good job at that.

The current event however is the exact opposite. It is repetitive, super linear, has a very bad work/reward ratio and, to top it all off, is only available for a limited amount of time.

Big NOPE.

It was trampled by a zerg in Brisban Wildlands, no one stopped to revive it.

Pino.5209:

The argument for GW2 is not grindy because everything is optional is getting old, seriously.

In game like WoW, Rift, etc like you guys mentioned. End game is defined, which is Raid. Yes it’s grindy.

GW2 has lack of definition when it comes to end game.
If one see Legendaries as endgame, yes it’s grindy as hell too.
Fashion wise, skins need golds, need tokens, grindy too.
Achievement Points hunters, yes grindy.
If you don’t aim for anything in GW2, of course it’s not grindy. So does for ppl who play Wow, level up max and call it.

The excuse for it being optional just doesn’t cut it. GW2 is grindy, it’s mmorpg, if you really wanted to achieve anything in the game.

The difference between grind for something I need and something I want is HUGE. The thing is that a lot of people like to grind for a new tier of gear to get into new raids and it’s ok. But other people like other stuff and GW2 give them that (at least try to).

The plan is for us to chew on this grizzle for another five weeks, and spit it out when HoT drops.

But not a moment before.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

No, Pino. They gave a definition of end game (at launch). They specifically started that ‘the entire game is endgame;’ however, that means different things to different people. Additionally, not everyone knows how to ‘direct’ themselves, considering we are used to games doing it for us. Those things (in conjunction with several other things) have led Anet to give us more specific types of end game – raiding, mastery building, extended fractals, etc.

“Entire game is endgame” pretty much can be easily interpreted as do whatever you want as endgame. This is where players defined them themselves. Some ppl content with exotics n play pve pvp casually, calling it endgame. Then comes the “optional” argument from them. It’s not entirely about not knowing hot to direct themselves. Asking around and google is a child play in these era. Mmorpg is all about socializing after all.
Anet giving use raid, masteries, revamp fractals are more like desperate attempt to fill in the void of market dominance right now (knowing wow is losing it) and also recapturing back all those left complaining about no high end game contents as such.
GW2 is currently stale after 3 years to the point projected income probably plumet without expansion factor in.
It’s hard to argue back and forth about this stuff.
All i can say “optional” argument for GW2 not being grindy doesn’t really cut it nemore.

I mean it takes a couple of days or like a week max to hit 80. There, this is your no grind.

What do you think the game would look like if everyone got their ascended and skins ect in that same time frame as hitting endgame grind free?

Pino.5209:

All i can say “optional” argument for GW2 not being grindy doesn’t really cut it nemore.

Except that it’s the truth. Like 90% of the game is wholly optional. You can make it as grindy, or not grindy, as you so please. You can’t necessarily say the same of other games because there are more restrictions, more requirements to just “playing.” You must have ‘x’ to progress to ‘y’ type things, and in order to achieve ‘x’ you must do ‘z’ repeatedly. Pretty standard formula across games, not just MMOs really (though they rely on it heavily). Its busy work, nothing more nothing less. You really don’t have that ‘busy work’ here, unless you choose to go after something (ie, a legendary) that is intentionally designed to have it.

I feel that a lot of you are missing the point…

The thing is this game is very grindy, if you want to aim for any goal at all really. If you want ascended armor? Legendary? Cultural Armor? Fancy Weapon Skin? Grind away.

Now, if you just want to hit level cap, use odd matching armor, etc…then yes there won’t be a grind. But the same can be said in ANY game. You don’t NEED to raid in other games, or grind day in and day out. You can just level up at your own pace, go pvp, or do some dungeons or whatever it is and call it a day. Raiding is OPTIONAL, it’s only if you want be part of that environment that you need to continually upgrade your gear and do this and that.

The same goes for GW2 but this is where my point stands. You don’t NEED to do anything in any game so you can’t really throw that argument out there to say that GW2 isn’t grindy since everything is OPTIONAL because as I previously mentioned if you actually want to get anything accomplished, the game is a grind.

One of the problems IMHO with GW2 is that you can’t spot grind for mats, you get random bags and hope it gets what you want. Whereas in other games you can go out and grind X spot for Y item. In this game you find the flavor of the month spot to grind for X amount of gold so that you can buy Y item. Then Anet nerfs this spot and that spot because they don’t want you to grind (or so they say) and people find another more profitable area to grind. But if they don’t want you to grind, why do they make the only reasonably obtainable way to get an item, a super tedious grind? It seems that Anet at times isn’t even sure of what they want.

The other thing is, this game doesn’t have end game revolving around a gear treadmill grind. It does however have a cosmetic treadmill and so I feel that it is only fair to compare it to other games in that regard…i.e, cosmetic grind is to GW2 as gear treadmill is to any other MMO. When you look at it that way, yes there is a grind.

Then you have people above that mention the game is not grindy because I can just get ascended chests and convert them to the armor I want. Well just because you get 1 ascended chest every few days, doesn’t mean others do. Some people have done Teq every day since the revamp and STILL don’t have a hoard. Others get 2-3 within the first month of doing Teq. For the first individual the game may not seem grindy for the latter….it is very much a grind.

Not to mention all the temporary content which poses an issue for certain people that can’t play during those periods of time.

Also, I played WoW for a very long time and found the “grind” there to be much less grindy than in GW2. I raided in Vanilla WoW up until I quit sometime in WOTLK, so I was there when the game would be considered far more grindy than it is today. So, no I haven’t played every other MMO under the sun that has more of a grind but I did play a game that people often compare this one to.

I know that every game has its grind and that helps with longevity but the difference comes with how “fun” the developer makes that grind. To me running around with a shovel for hours on end for maybe 10g an hour, or playing TP wars, or dungeon training the same dungeons for 3 years isn’t exactly fun…

Now, don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy many aspects of the game but there are some things I wish Anet would do better. RNG being one of them and they have already taken steps in the right direction (with things such as the legendary precursor track for HoT). Though, this event seems like a step in the wrong direction.

Hopefully, I made some sense here…and feel free to correct me on any points that I am mistaken on.

I think the biggest issue with why it feels more grindy (for some) is that GW2 does lack any definitive means of farming for specific items, which is something that is present in other games. Because of the additional randomness (anything can drop anywhere thing), we end up spending longer than what we typically would (or what we feel is acceptable) if we could simply farm ‘x’ and get ‘y.’ Something I know has been brought up as a complaint previously. Perhaps the incoming map bonus system will help reduce this frustration. I haven’t tested it myself in the betas, but most of the feedback Ive seen had been (for the most part) positive.

Why should someone get the same rewards as someone who put in the effort, just for doing an easier form of said content? You reward those who are willing to put in the effort and time to complete said hard content, you don’t reward the lesser skilled just for attempting. “Oh well, you tried, here, have a participation reward
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Some-people-don-t-like-hard-mode/page/10#post5400683

No efford , no fun :P

We had ppl in that thread , what hated RNG and wanted 100% chance to get the item or Tokens (which they are using atm in this events) :P

Setz.9675:

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Are you all fine with grinding now? Because this event is absolutely atrocious.

Anets no grind philosophy always only applied to ‘no gear treadmill’. Everything past that is fair game to them

Which is funny because Ascended Gear is grindy.

So when I mention WoW you won’t attack me with: "go back to that grindy game#?

If players stopped insisting that only rewards will make them repeat content, then ANet could dispense with grind. Grind is essential to MMO’s because some players insist that MMO support playing for many hours a day over the course of years while insisting that the game keep them motivated. Grind is inescapable in MMO’s, at least given current development methods. I’m not saying that this event’s reward requirements are good, but developers use grind because players insist on rewards at the same time that the company’s income depends on keeping players playing.

runeblade.7514:

Setz.9675:

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Are you all fine with grinding now? Because this event is absolutely atrocious.

Anets no grind philosophy always only applied to ‘no gear treadmill’. Everything past that is fair game to them

Which is funny because Ascended Gear is grindy.

Not when it drops in the open game as well and you change the stats on it. Ascended Gear is actually fairly easy to get.

And this event is hardly grindy. I already have 90 blooms and just jump in when I can. None of the items on the vendor are items that are required for you to progress.

So once again, “grind” is self-imposed due to want.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Why should someone get the same rewards as someone who put in the effort, just for doing an easier form of said content? You reward those who are willing to put in the effort and time to complete said hard content, you don’t reward the lesser skilled just for attempting. “Oh well, you tried, here, have a participation reward
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Some-people-don-t-like-hard-mode/page/10#post5400683

No efford , no fun :P

We had ppl in that thread , what hated RNG and wanted 100% chance to get the item or Tokens (which they are using atm in this events) :P

But it currently isn’t skill based… A large portion is just random, the other portion is just having enough time to grind stuff out.

Grind, even for skins is worked to have a variety of ways to accomplish. I.e. getting dungeon skins by running dungeons and/or PvP.
Getting materials by TP. Gathering, salvaging, mystic forge etc.

And as always everything is optional unless you choose to grind

The ‘no grind’ mantra is in the same garbage can where Anet tossed in the Ranger class. How the hell can Anet screw up so much lately is a mystery to me.

I played a game called Ether Saga. In that game you could buy a bot from the cash shop that would kill in a specific area for you, heal you when health was set to whatever % you wanted it to heal you and even set the range of which you targeted mobs. When I played the max level was 105. In the time it took to go from 104 to 105 you had to use these bots for non stop 24/7 grinding in the best spot in the game for xp which there was only 18 of them btw, 9 of which were in non pvp and 9 in pvp. The time it took for 1 being the class with the longest range aoe, 1 shotting the mobs was 10 months. The other classes took over a year. That is non stop grinding. People of this game do not know what grinding is.

When putting into context of what Arenanet said about No grinding, they stayed true to that. What ever yourself feels what grinding is, is irrelevant to what Arenanet said. The facts are there, they are staying true to their “no grind” philosophy.

lordkrall.7241:

There have never been a “no grind” philosophy.

There have been (and still is) “no need to grind in order to access content philosophy”.

Logic is a hard thing to absorb today it seems. Next thing we will see is manifesto posts linking to the event.

ThreeFeetOfMagic.4529:

I played a game called Ether Saga. In that game you could buy a bot from the cash shop that would kill in a specific area for you, heal you when health was set to whatever % you wanted it to heal you and even set the range of which you targeted mobs. When I played the max level was 105. In the time it took to go from 104 to 105 you had to use these bots for non stop 24/7 grinding in the best spot in the game for xp which there was only 18 of them btw, 9 of which were in non pvp and 9 in pvp. The time it took for 1 being the class with the longest range aoe, 1 shotting the mobs was 10 months. The other classes took over a year. That is non stop grinding. People of this game do not know what grinding is.

So what you are saying is that because you played a game that was so grindy that you had to have a BOT play the game FOR YOU for 10 months, to grind out a level…That GW2 doesn’t have a grind?

Can you please consider what you are saying for a moment and how ridiculous your accusation is? Keep in mind GW2 is catering to a casual crowd and is supposed to be different from other MMO’s.

Or better yet consider how ridiculous the game you were playing was…to level up you have to let something play the game for you, that makes no sense what so ever. You really went to the extreme with your example.

If you are choosing to grind for the event that’s your choice, it’s absolutely not required though so yea I’m fine with it.

Every mmo I’ve played has grind in it. When you play any game content time and again, it becomes a grind, the trick is to find ways to make it feel less so, over time. The invasion failed at that.