Guild Wars 2

Gallrvaghn.4921:

If you want something, you have to work for it. It’s called perspective.

The key is allowing everyone the ability to achieve something in an MMo, regardless or being a casual or a hardcore player. If the developer does that, the game already is heading in the right direction.

PiSquare.2904:

So right now i have a serious issue. By now we already know that GW 2 alienated most of the GW 1 playerbase.

I wonder tough and i might get a ban for wording this so hard. What the kitten went trough the dev teams brains, when they implemented better gear that you cant get for a certain time period.

The charm of GW is and was that you could swap builds on the fly. Here? Oh you want to use the best gear with your build? Well you have to farm for at least 20 days now. And nope cant get it faster because there is a limit on how many laurels you can get per day. So if i grind an amulet for 20 days and at the end i want to swap my build, well guess what another 20 days, lets not even think about gearing a second character. I wouldnt mind it if those were only items that looked better, but no, these are items that have plain better stats.

I never really got into WoW because of this gear threadmill, but atm, it feels like it would be better to go play WoW as they handle the threadmill better at least.

The major problem with WoW threadmill is a two-fold problem, first you require a hardcore raid guild thats dedicated enough, and secondly you need to be already on that treadmill in order to progress further.

This is why WoW is new-player unfriendly and each expansion totally resets that treadmill, so all the work and gear you’ve acquired over the space of a few years is pretty much wiped out and everything starts again. The problem for WoW is that, its getting old and its playerbase is ever shrinking as people burn out from the endless gear grind.

PiSquare.2904:

. Im a min maxer.

Isn’t min/max’ing, by nature, going to require more time and effort? Otherwise everyone could be a min/max player.

Or maybe I may have the wrong definition of the phrase.

kenshinakh.3672:

1) It is quite small in dungeons and WvW, and also remember that this 10% you’re talking about are stats, not overall damage increase like skills that give 10% more damage.

No, it is a 10% increase in damage overall, not just stats.

Power is multiplicative. A 10% increase in Power ~= 10% more damage.

2) I’d be mildly interested because these are the calculations I found:

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/23183
Berserker’s Amulet
90 Power
64 Precision
5% Critical Damage

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24498
Exquisite Ruby Jewel
25 power
3% critical damage
15 precision

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_the_Tethyos_Houses
Mark of the Tethyos Houses
94 Power
67 Precision
5% Critical damage
-
32 Power
4% Critical damage
18 Precision

You should have done your math before posting that. The stats you just posted indicate that the Ascended amulet has 126 Power and 85 Precision vs the Exotic amulet’s 115 Power and 79 Precision. That’s an increase of 9.56% in Power and 7.59% in Precision, not to mention the extra 1% of Critical Damage. That fits precisely within the 5-10% window I pointed out….the same one that the devs themselves gave us. So you actually proved my point.

And that’s just for one item, not for an entire set of Ascended gear (including armor, weapon, and trinkets).

But let’s be conservative for a moment and assume that all of the stats for Ascended gear produce only a 5% boost (even though as established above, this is clearly not true). How much damage will that produce? Let’s set up a scenario and find out. Using similar math to my last proof, and using knowledge gleaned from various sources, I’ll provide a rough estimate on expectations for Ascended Berserker assuming all future equipment to be released comes out at exactly 5% stronger. In the case of Crit Damage, we’ll assume it increases by 1% per item.

Exotic Player’s Stats
Base Stats: 916 Power, 916 Precision, 916 Toughness, 916 Vitality
Weapon: 995-1100 Base Damage, 179 Power, 128 Precision, 9% Critical Damage
Traits: 300 Power, 300 Precision
Armor (sans upgrades): 968 Base Defense, 315 Power, 224 Precision, 16% Critical Damage
Accessories: 162 Power, 110 Precision, 12% Critical Damage
Amulet: 115 Power, 79 Precision, 8% Critical Damage
Rings: 184 Power, 126 Precision, 12% Critical Damage
Back: 47 Power, 31 Precision, 4% Critical Damage
Final Stats: 2218 Power, 1914 Precision (including 61% Critical Damage), 916 Toughness, 916 Vitality, 995-1100 Base Damage, 968 Base Defense

1047.5 * (2218) / (916+968) = 1233 damage per strike on any skill with a modifier of 1, and will have a [4+(1914-916)/21] = 52% chance to deal (150+61) = 211% damage. The average damage is 1233*(1-0.52) + 1233*0.52*2.11 = 1944.7 average damage.

Ascended Player’s Stats
Base Stats: 916 Power, 916 Precision, 916 Toughness, 916 Vitality
Weapon: 1045-1155 Base Damage, 188 Power, 134 Precision, 10% Critical Damage (approximation based on http://i.imgur.com/lZz53.png )
Traits: 300 Power, 300 Precision
Armor (sans upgrades): 1016 Base Defense, 331 Power, 235 Precision, 17% Critical Damage
Accessories: 170 Power, 116 Precision, 14% Critical Damage
Amulet: 126 Power, 85 Precision, 9% Critical Damage (based on Mark of the Tethyos Houses)
Rings: 206 Power, 136 Precision, 16% Critical Damage (based on Red Ring of Death/Crystalline Band)
Back: 56 Power, 35 Precision, 5% Critical Damage (based on Quiver of Swift Flight)
Final Stats: 2293 Power, 1957 Precision (including 71% Critical Damage), 916 Toughness, 916 Vitality, 1045-1155 Base Damage, 1016 Base Defense

1100 * (2293) / (916+968) = 1339 damage per strike on any skill with a modifier of 1, and will have a [4+(1957-916)/21] = 54% chance to deal (150+71) = 221% damage. The average damage is 1339*(1-0.54) + 1339*0.54*2.21 = 2213.9 average damage.

These results show that the Ascended player is dealing 13.8% more damage than the player with only Exotic equipment. And keep in mind that the Exotic player, when in combat with the Ascended player, will actually deal less than the damage listed above because the Ascended player has a higher armor rating (due to the 5% more defense), so the Ascended player’s advantage only grows even larger once that is considered.

(continued in next post)

3) You’re missing my point. I’m saying it isn’t a grind depending on your perspective. I can absolutely play through that without feeling grind because I know well enough to avoid grinding it out. Whether you like it or not, this entire game is a grind, and same with GW1, if you were to put it in the perspective of grind = repeatitive actions. However, pulling away from the textbook definition of grind, GW2 gives you a variety of things to do usually, and depending on your play style, you’re not going to feel grind.

Not feeling the grind isn’t the same thing as not having grind.

4) I did not say gear treadmill existed in Mario and Pokemon. I said gear treadmill has roots from those games. Those games offer you a progression based system. You level up, get more power ups and etc. In pokemon, you capture stronger monsters, and train them and level them. It’s similar base concepts, except in MMOs it is applied to gear. It’s basically to give you a goal to shoot towards and give meaning for the “work” done.

That’s reducing the mechanics of a game to such a base level as to strip all meaning from them at all. Yes, all games have some manner of progression, but that doesn’t make it related to a grind or gear treadmill.

5) Again, you forget to consider the developer’s view of their own model. http://www.shacknews.com/article/76799/guild-wars-2-team-addresses-gear-grind-complaints

Which only goes to prove my point. They don’t believe that it’s grinding to keep introducing new tiers and levels of gear, and continue to advertise the game as “zero grind” even though it’s not. It’s a matter of honesty with your players. Your game clearly has grind in it, whether it’s minimal or not is irrelevant. I think it could stand to be less than it is right now, you’re obviously fine with it. That’s fine, we can agree to disagree.

I can play through this game without grind because I choose to. Why can’t you? Maybe you don’t want to or you haven’t figured out a way yet. You can surely learn from other players though instead of demanding Anet to change their game around your perspective.

I guarantee you that you’re wrong. You’ve repeated some aspect of this game at some point to reach the stage you’re at now. You may not have felt like you were grinding, but you were. The fact that you didn’t feel the grind is precisely the desired goal I’m trying to push for, except to a degree where a vast majority of the game’s players do not feel the grind, rather than just a few people who will defend the game regardless of its quality level.

I am not demanding anything. I am suggesting to the developers to fix their game so that the grind is reduced from its current levels so that their advertised stance of “zero grind” is at least plausibly more accurate than it is right now.

You forget that games are always evolving and changing. As developers, they know that your game has to evolve with the times. GW1 was great, but that doesn’t mean it is the ONLY thing that works. Ask yourself, are humans static? They’re not. They change over time, and so do the developers of games. Is GW2 bad? No, it’s still going strong, and the same “manefesto” they had at the start is still in progress. When the game first came out, it wasn’t true horizontal progression. It had elements of both horizontal and vertical, and it was unique BECAUSE of that. GW2 didn’t become great because of GW1. It is its own unique game.

GW2 hasn’t become “great” yet. It’s still a fledgling game whose fate will be decided within its first full year of release. You don’t become “great” overnight, you have to work at it.

What I am proposing is very simple: a series of changes that significantly reduce the game’s existing forms of grind to levels that are generally far more acceptable to the average player. If that is problematic and introduces concerns that the game will become too easy all too quickly, then that issue is solved simply by increasing the difficulty of the game’s content at large so that players will feel more optimally challenged. Right now the game is incredibly easy once you get the hang of it, to the point where you can still kill quite a lot of enemies with just blue or green gear at max level. They have plenty of room to increase difficulty and decrease grind in such a way as to strike a much more optimal balance of game play and content.

No one is asking for them to go back to GW1, here. What we’re suggesting is that they make some small yet significant changes in how they view their game and introduce their content while they are still a young game that can experience large growth. If they choose to rest on what they’ve created, that would be the truly stagnant option here, and eventually their player count will reflect that choice.

critickitten.1498:

You should have done your math before posting that. The stats you just posted indicate that the Ascended amulet has 126 Power and 85 Precision vs the Exotic amulet’s 115 Power and 79 Precision. That’s an increase of 9.56% in Power and 7.59% in Precision, not to mention the extra 1% of Critical Damage. That fits precisely within the 5-10% window I pointed out….the same one that the devs themselves gave us. So you actually proved my point.

And that’s just for one item, not for an entire set of Ascended gear (including armor, weapon, and trinkets).

But let’s be conservative for a moment and assume that all of the stats for Ascended gear produce only a 5% boost (even though as established above, this is clearly not true). How much damage will that produce? Let’s set up a scenario and find out. Using similar math to my last proof, and using knowledge gleaned from various sources, I’ll provide a rough estimate on expectations for Ascended Berserker assuming all future equipment to be released comes out at exactly 5% stronger. In the case of Crit Damage, we’ll assume it increases by 1% per item.
~snip math~
These results show that the Ascended player is dealing 13.8% more damage than the player with only Exotic equipment. And keep in mind that the Exotic player, when in combat with the Ascended player, will actually deal less than the damage listed above because the Ascended player has a higher armor rating (due to the 5% more defense), so the Ascended player’s advantage only grows even larger once that is considered.

(continued in next post)

My original post said 10% increase from ascended over exotics. It was a response to someone’s past post saying something a bit outrageous like 29%+. So yes, I’ve done the math already.

As far as ascended vs exotics, right now it’s not even an issue because only a few parts from ascended are available. If I were to WvW, would I automatically lose to someone wearing ascended? No, and I hardly feel at a disadvantage. The thing with ascended is that they’re introducing it part by part over a long time period, and with each patch, they’re making it easier to obtain. So that gives time for people to gear for it anyways. I’m not saying its completely negligible, but it’s not blown out of proportions like some people have been whining about.

critickitten.1498:

Not feeling the grind isn’t the same thing as not having grind.

To a certain extent, grind is perspective. In GW2, you can avoid most of the grind. That’s not saying there isn’t grind though.

critickitten.1498:

That’s reducing the mechanics of a game to such a base level as to strip all meaning from them at all. Yes, all games have some manner of progression, but that doesn’t make it related to a grind or gear treadmill.

Yes, I mentioned in the post before this that what I said is reducing things to a very base level. The point I was making is grind and the gear treadmill is a form of progression. I don’t like it though, but I was just pointing it out.

critickitten.1498:

Which only goes to prove my point. They don’t believe that it’s grinding to keep introducing new tiers and levels of gear, and continue to advertise the game as “zero grind” even though it’s not. It’s a matter of honesty with your players. Your game clearly has grind in it, whether it’s minimal or not is irrelevant. I think it could stand to be less than it is right now, you’re obviously fine with it. That’s fine, we can agree to disagree.

It’s again a matter of perspective. If I see them keeping to their manifesto of minimal (I say minimal because that’s what I get from when I read their interviews), then I say so. Of course, people will disagree and say they strayed, but my opinion still holds for very good reasons. It’s not like I’m brain-washed. I’m just more relaxed/chill with things maybe or maybe those “grind” things didn’t affect me enough for me to care or speak up. It could be because of my play style or past influences, but it still boils down to personal opinions.

critickitten.1498:

I guarantee you that you’re wrong. You’ve repeated some aspect of this game at some point to reach the stage you’re at now. You may not have felt like you were grinding, but you were. The fact that you didn’t feel the grind is precisely the desired goal I’m trying to push for, except to a degree where a vast majority of the game’s players do not feel the grind, rather than just a few people who will defend the game regardless of its quality level.

This relates back to grind being mostly an opinion, so you can’t guarantee I’m wrong. I could say “I’m grinding because I press this same button and do this same move more than 1000x”, but I don’t because I have a different definition of grind due to other games influencing me. It’s not unanimous that GW2 is a grind, but some of the past posts sounded like they implied it was only grinding. And I am not the type to defend the game regardless of quality level. I’m more of a person who speaks up when someone pushes their opinion like it’s 100% correct. I’m not referring to you by the way (I agree with most of the things you linked in your sig). My post was originally meant for the group of players that whine about grind without giving good suggestions to change it or lower it, and towards those people who have a very narrow perspective of the game.

critickitten.1498:

GW2 hasn’t become “great” yet. It’s still a fledgling game whose fate will be decided within its first full year of release. You don’t become “great” overnight, you have to work at it.

What I am proposing is very simple: a series of changes that significantly reduce the game’s existing forms of grind to levels that are generally far more acceptable to the average player. If that is problematic and introduces concerns that the game will become too easy all too quickly, then that issue is solved simply by increasing the difficulty of the game’s content at large so that players will feel more optimally challenged. Right now the game is incredibly easy once you get the hang of it, to the point where you can still kill quite a lot of enemies with just blue or green gear at max level. They have plenty of room to increase difficulty and decrease grind in such a way as to strike a much more optimal balance of game play and content.

No one is asking for them to go back to GW1, here. What we’re suggesting is that they make some small yet significant changes in how they view their game and introduce their content while they are still a young game that can experience large growth. If they choose to rest on what they’ve created, that would be the truly stagnant option here, and eventually their player count will reflect that choice.

I’m not saying GW2 is great, nor am I saying it isn’t. I was saying that I’m content with the progress of the game, though that doesn’t mean I don’t see ways for improvement and changes that I think should be made. Again, I do agree with most of the things you’ve said and suggested. But the thread here seemed more like repeatitive complaints that I’ve been reading for so long without real solution. (That is, compared to your thread, though it’d be nice if your thread can be rebumped by people).

Bottom line: Once you commit to a certain gear set, you’re suck.

So, if you want to mat farm, you need a mf set, but then you take that mf set into a fotm: BAM, you’re the guy that dies all the time!

Okay, I want to manage a deep vitality/toughness pool. For dungeons, that’s cool until you want to farm cof…then you’re not welcome, and you’re useless in WvW against a hammer or thief.

When I run my Tanky build into a thief, and get back stabbed to a surprisingly quick death, I wish I could change up my set and run back out there to try again…but outside of food and changing a few traits, I’m stuck.

At least hook a guy up with a wardrobe manager if I have to grind out multiple sets of gear!

The gem store and investors, I think.

Raine.1394:

OP, it’s a question I’ve asked myself many times after 11/15 and especially before the AMA when we didn’t really know what ascended gear meant. I don’t know what they were thinking and that aspect is still a mystery. My guess is that got spooked by all the no endgame threads and thought they better give them something to do. But, it really is a mystery. Adding a gear grind to GW is one of the larger non sequiturs in my gaming experience. And, even after they saw the negative impact on the game, they seem committed to continuing down the path.

So, there’s the fact that the grinding culture is here, which is sad, and there is also the issue of the nature of the grind. I don’t think Anet is very good at making a grindy game. In WoW the grind is relatively fast. When you are grinding out your PvP and PvE sets it’s basically what you focus on. Once you have the level of gear you want you can relax and most of the expansion is relaxed. Here it seems there will always be a sword over your head and a need to grind. Not a very good way of designing a grindy game if you ask me. (I cut them some slack here as they are new to grindy games.)

The problem with your way of thinking is that in wow you need the top tear gear to do new or up comeing content. In gw2 with its slow burn there is no need to have it in order to do the content we have and by the time we do NEED it it will be much easyer for every one to get

Also it the new gear dosnt lock you out of or make old content pointless like it dose in wow

Critickitten is the kryptonite to this game’s white knights. My hat is off to you, sir!

kenshinakh.3672:

My original post said 10% increase from ascended over exotics. It was a response to someone’s past post saying something a bit outrageous like 29%+. So yes, I’ve done the math already.

Stat increase of about 10% (which is what we have now – the 5% increase assumed in the calculations you quoted is actually very conservative, and way lower that the increases on 4 types of items we saw so far) results in about 28-29% damage increase for berserker sets (easiest to compare). So yes, cumulative advantage of one set over the other can reach +29% in some categories.

As far as ascended vs exotics, right now it’s not even an issue because only a few parts from ascended are available.

That’s like saying driving towards a cliff is not an issue because we didn’t go over it yet.
The best ways of dealing with problems is NOT trying to clean up after they happen, but to predict and prevent them beforehand.

PiSquare.2904:

So right now i have a serious issue. By now we already know that GW 2 alienated most of the GW 1 playerbase.

I wonder tough and i might get a ban for wording this so hard. What the kitten went trough the dev teams brains, when they implemented better gear that you cant get for a certain time period.

The charm of GW is and was that you could swap builds on the fly. Here? Oh you want to use the best gear with your build? Well you have to farm for at least 20 days now. And nope cant get it faster because there is a limit on how many laurels you can get per day. So if i grind an amulet for 20 days and at the end i want to swap my build, well guess what another 20 days, lets not even think about gearing a second character. I wouldnt mind it if those were only items that looked better, but no, these are items that have plain better stats.

I never really got into WoW because of this gear threadmill, but atm, it feels like it would be better to go play WoW as they handle the threadmill better at least.

Could you please stop praising the gear system from GW1 to heaven? Because it was a much more worse grind than we have now at the beginning.
Gear was relatively cheap in GW1 but the superiour Runes were next to impossible to get for “casual” players, same thing goes for the weapons with the best upgrades. Without the griffon, minotaur, uw farmruns no one would have been able to get that stuff in a short matter of time.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Raine.1394:

OP, it’s a question I’ve asked myself many times after 11/15 and especially before the AMA when we didn’t really know what ascended gear meant. I don’t know what they were thinking and that aspect is still a mystery. My guess is that got spooked by all the no endgame threads and thought they better give them something to do. But, it really is a mystery. Adding a gear grind to GW is one of the larger non sequiturs in my gaming experience. And, even after they saw the negative impact on the game, they seem committed to continuing down the path.

So, there’s the fact that the grinding culture is here, which is sad, and there is also the issue of the nature of the grind. I don’t think Anet is very good at making a grindy game. In WoW the grind is relatively fast. When you are grinding out your PvP and PvE sets it’s basically what you focus on. Once you have the level of gear you want you can relax and most of the expansion is relaxed. Here it seems there will always be a sword over your head and a need to grind. Not a very good way of designing a grindy game if you ask me. (I cut them some slack here as they are new to grindy games.)

The problem with your way of thinking is that in wow you need the top tear gear to do new or up comeing content. In gw2 with its slow burn there is no need to have it in order to do the content we have and by the time we do NEED it it will be much easyer for every one to get

Also it the new gear dosnt lock you out of or make old content pointless like it dose in wow

“does”

And there are better ways of making sure the game isn’t a gearcheck (which is the crux of your fears) than these methods. You’re not seeing the bigger picture, and like a few here, don’t want to.
It’s ironic that I actually agree with the principle ideas of some of those that are defending the game, but I also think they’ve missed the points or are personally biased.

kokiman.2364:

Could you please stop praising the gear system from GW1 to heaven? Because it was a much more worse grind than we have now at the beginning.
Gear was relatively cheap in GW1 but the superiour Runes were next to impossible to get for “casual” players, same thing goes for the weapons with the best upgrades. Without the griffon, minotaur, uw farmruns no one would have been able to get that stuff in a short matter of time.

lol wat.

The best gear in the entire game was purchasable for 5 platinum, which was a relatively cheap sum to obtain. I could do that overnight in my prime as a GW1 player. All elite armors and weapon skins were truly optional in that they didn’t provide a lick of better stats, only made you look cooler.

If we compare to this game, the best gear in the entire game takes an absolute minimum of 20 Fractals runs to get one ring (assuming you’re not lucky and one drops during dailies), or 30 days worth of dailies to get one from the laurel shop. 35 if you want to count amulets. And let’s not even look at legendaries, which will soon become more powerful than any Exotic in the game and will continue to get stronger as new content is released.

Yeah, no, GW1’s grind was much smaller and was actually truly optional. You could get the best stats in no time flat and sit on them if you wanted (and I did for quite a while). But GW2’s grind is neither of those things, you must grind in order to have the best stats. I don’t like people “worshiping” GW1 either but let’s be honest about what is really going on, here.

critickitten.1498:

kokiman.2364:

Could you please stop praising the gear system from GW1 to heaven? Because it was a much more worse grind than we have now at the beginning.
Gear was relatively cheap in GW1 but the superiour Runes were next to impossible to get for “casual” players, same thing goes for the weapons with the best upgrades. Without the griffon, minotaur, uw farmruns no one would have been able to get that stuff in a short matter of time.

lol wat.

The best gear in the entire game was purchasable for 5 platinum, which was a relatively cheap sum to obtain. I could do that overnight in my prime as a GW1 player. All elite armors and weapon skins were truly optional in that they didn’t provide a lick of better stats, only made you look cooler.

Yeah, no, GW1’s grind was much smaller and was actually truly optional. You could get the best stats in no time flat and sit on them if you wanted (and I did for quite a while). But GW2’s grind is neither of those things, you must grind in order to have the best stats. I don’t like people “worshiping” GW1 either but let’s be honest about what is really going on, here.

Maybe we played different versions of this game but when I played the max armor was at 1,5k each piece (5pieces = 7,5k) and a rune of superior health was at around 100k, same for the sup rune of absorb. . Getting a req 9 weapon with 15^50 was relatively easy to achieve due to collectors but putting upgrades like + 30 +sundering vamp or zealous on it was a pain in the kitten because those upgrades were so expensive ( back in the days you couldn’t choose which part of the weapon you salvage it was luck based wether you get the +30 Health or 4 Woodplanks). But hey there was not only a gear grind but also an achievement grind because some achievements improved your stats too, for example Luxon, Kurzick/Lightbringer or Treasurehunter. People seem to forget all of this horrendous grind we had in GW1 and I don’t know why.

Sure, you could play without perfect equipment but the same goes for GW2, right?!

I agree with everything you said.. I’m playing much more less now because of this thing. They already ruined the game for some players like us who doesn’t like grinding. I want to have the best gear in the game, but i don’t want to to grind every hour, every day just to get it.

How about OP doesn’t slot BiS ascended for his no-doubt constant ADD rotation of builds?

Problem solved

kenshinakh.3672:

3. Stats in WoW work multicatively too… 1 Stamina = 10 HP. 1 Str = 2 AP for certain classes. You get my point right?

Right. Except that this is totally not what multiplicative means in this context.

There are numerous posts in this very thread now that better illustrate how power, precision and cirt damage interact in this game, and how it is different to the example you provided.

For reference: Multiplicative in this instance means every point of power gets more valuable for every point of precision and crit damage I have and vice versa. This is not true in your example, where strength and stamina do not interact at all.

Vayne.8563:

Content isn’t gated by your gear. You can still do all the dungeons.

FotM lvl 20+ says hello, you can’t live past jade maw with 0 ar. Heck FotM is now completely gated at lvl 49 because of the unavoidable agony.

Shadowmoon.7986:

Vayne.8563:

Content isn’t gated by your gear. You can still do all the dungeons.

FotM lvl 20+ says hello, you can’t live past jade maw with 0 ar. Heck FotM is now completely gated at lvl 49 because of the unavoidable agony.

If you are Level 20 FotM with 0 AR you did something wrong.

Shadowmoon.7986:

Vayne.8563:

Content isn’t gated by your gear. You can still do all the dungeons.

FotM lvl 20+ says hello, you can’t live past jade maw with 0 ar. Heck FotM is now completely gated at lvl 49 because of the unavoidable agony.

Right and you get those drops from the fractals themselves. It’s self-perpetuating. I can go into the fractals all day and farm tier 10 and I’m doing that content. And if that’s what I’m into, then I’m there anyway to get the drops. Simple as.

But that’s the point. I’ve done all the fractals, and I’ve enjoyed what I’ve done and I’ve stopped, because that content doesn’t interest me. If it does, I can keep doing it and get the stuff from that fractal. Ergo the content isn’t gated.

This how it was designed. It was designed to let grinders have something to grind without affecting the rest of the game. It’s called a compromise.

PiSquare.2904:

I never really got into WoW because of this gear threadmill, but atm, it feels like it would be better to go play WoW as they handle the threadmill better at least.

GW2 has no gear treadmill. I don’t think you understand what the WoW treadmill was.

WoW released gear with better stats every other month or so, making the old gear worse. It was an infinite carrot on a stick – if you ever got close to the best gear, they released better!

With GW2, you can’t even inspect other players gear. You don’t even need to have a full set of exotics. There’s a stat difference, but the combat is much more about your skill, making the stats a secondary thing. Ascended is imo just ANet’s candy for those who wants to have the best of the best – It’s not even cosmetic since it’s all trinkets.

You can easily play this game just doing what you want to do – But as a new MMO, there’s still ALOT of tweaking and content to be made until they’ve a good endgame that fulfills the Guildwars 2 Philosophy.

As much as I love GW2…Yes, a couple of the promises were broken.
Anet touted GW2 as having cosmetic-only grinds and not having 0/20 fetch quests.
The ascended treadmill broke the idea of no stat grind, and dailies broke the idea of no fetch quests.

Still best MMO on the market, but I’m somewhat losing the trust I had built in the last 8 years.

I can stand a change of direction as long as I’m explained why I was sold X and got Y.
These changes of direction were done without explanation and just the assumption that we’d accept them period.
Not quite the Anet I’m used to. Perhaps it isn’t really the same people of GW1 to lead GW2.

It would be good if they made an article/post to give explanations for this.
It’d be interesting to at least know the reasons.

I suggest that Anet does not try to push too much on our trust though, if you wish to change directions then please try to soften the hit.
Sudden changes with no explanations aren’t good PR.

kokiman.2364:

Maybe we played different versions of this game but when I played the max armor was at 1,5k each piece (5pieces = 7,5k) and a rune of superior health was at around 100k, same for the sup rune of absorb. . Getting a req 9 weapon with 15^50 was relatively easy to achieve due to collectors but putting upgrades like + 30 +sundering vamp or zealous on it was a pain in the kitten because those upgrades were so expensive ( back in the days you couldn’t choose which part of the weapon you salvage it was luck based wether you get the +30 Health or 4 Woodplanks).

Clearly we did play different games, because the game I played had armors of max power on sale for 1 platinum per piece. A few examples:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ranger_Sunspear_armor
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Paragon_Elonian_armor
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assassin_Imperial_armor

Also: I logged in this morning to check, a Rune of Superior Vigor is currently at 22 platinum.

So it sounds like you got ripped off and played some other game that wasn’t Guild Wars 1. ANet should probably sue that other company out there using their franchise name, I guess.

Or maybe you shouldn’t exaggerate because it severely weakens your argument when someone calls you out on your wrong information.

But hey there was not only a gear grind but also an achievement grind because some achievements improved your stats too, for example Luxon, Kurzick/Lightbringer or Treasurehunter. People seem to forget all of this horrendous grind we had in GW1 and I don’t know why.

Because there wasn’t a horrendous mandatory grind in GW1. There was grind, absolutely, but the grind was actually optional.

You could get max armor easily, platinum was not that hard to come by unless you weren’t managing your money well (I had 253 plat banked last I checked, and that was after spending quite a lot of it to obtain stuff for my 30 HoM points), and you practically trip over max gear in that game because it’s everywhere.

GW2’s drop rates are not nearly as considerate, its best gear is stuck behind mandatory month-long grinds (otherwise you get to “settle” for the next tier down on the list), and money is not as easy to come by unless you play the TP.

It’s very difficult to argue that GW1’s grind is worse than GW2’s, or even comparable.

Sure, you could play without perfect equipment but the same goes for GW2, right?!

You could play GW1 without perfect equipment, yes. But you’re living in a fantasy if you think that GW1’s perfect equipment was in any way nearly as much of a grind to obtain as GW2’s is.

And the other MAJOR difference in GW1, if I needed to buy something, I could do something casual like blow up birds for an hour and earn a plat.. or more..depending on feather and rune market.

Bit different than here, where an hour’s farming nets me 23 silver worth of crap.

GW1 allowed income to match playstyle. Speed clearing people made more, running DOA made more, people doing harder, more involved content made more. But, a person casually soloing what the could solo comfortably also made income, slower, but steady.

I don’t see that option here. Do a couple of activities, over and over, or starve with DR, tp costs and terrible drop rates doing anything else.

I don’t want the world. I would like to get to 60 on an alt and not have to sell my meager stash of needed craft fines or sell mystic coins just to get a stinking trait book.

Or have to decide.. do I make armor or buy traits because there simply isn’t enough cash for both.

GW1, grind for titles, fancy skins, elite armors. GW2, grind just as much for basic needs. Not good.

critickitten.1498:

kokiman.2364:

Maybe we played different versions of this game but when I played the max armor was at 1,5k each piece (5pieces = 7,5k) and a rune of superior health was at around 100k, same for the sup rune of absorb. . Getting a req 9 weapon with 15^50 was relatively easy to achieve due to collectors but putting upgrades like + 30 +sundering vamp or zealous on it was a pain in the kitten because those upgrades were so expensive ( back in the days you couldn’t choose which part of the weapon you salvage it was luck based wether you get the +30 Health or 4 Woodplanks).

Clearly we did play different games, because the game I played had armors of max power on sale for 1 platinum per piece. A few examples:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ranger_Sunspear_armor
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Paragon_Elonian_armor
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assassin_Imperial_armor

Also: I logged in this morning to check, a Rune of Superior Vigor is currently at 22 platinum.

It was up to about 50 at one point, but that was long ago, before they could be safely salvaged out of armor.

Unless you went for looks, everything was relatively cheap – but, what’s more, you could just buy it from a vendor. Some of really nice eq (max damage, with good, though usually not perfect bonuses, and great skins) you were even receiving as a preorder bonus.

In GW2 it would be like getting a set of respawnable, unsalvageable level 80 exotic cavalier (or similar not the best stat set) weapons with Volcanus-class equivalent skins just for buying the game. And vendors selling ascended eq for 1-2 gold (or cheaper) per piece. And we all know the chances of it happening here.

critickitten.1498:

Clearly we did play different games, because the game I played had armors of max power on sale for 1 platinum per piece. A few examples:

Never played at release, huh? Well I was actually referring to the game at the state of release until factions.

critickitten.1498:

Because there wasn’t a horrendous mandatory grind in GW1. There was grind, absolutely, but the grind was actually optional.

Skills that get stronger by grinding more factionpoints isn’t mandatory?

critickitten.1498:

It’s very difficult to argue that GW1’s grind is worse than GW2’s, or even comparable.

It was just flat out worse. Getting “perfect” gear is so simple in GW2 right now. Salvage some rares, craft your exotic stuff. Do every day Level 10 fractals to get the daily reward and do the dailies to get laurels.

critickitten.1498:

You could play GW1 without perfect equipment, yes. But you’re living in a fantasy if you think that GW1’s perfect equipment was in any way nearly as much of a grind to obtain as GW2’s is.

No you just didn’t play the game at release.

kokiman.2364:

critickitten.1498:

Clearly we did play different games, because the game I played had armors of max power on sale for 1 platinum per piece. A few examples:

Never played at release, huh? Well I was actually referring to the game at the state of release until factions.

critickitten.1498:

Because there wasn’t a horrendous mandatory grind in GW1. There was grind, absolutely, but the grind was actually optional.

Skills that get stronger by grinding more factionpoints isn’t mandatory?

critickitten.1498:

It’s very difficult to argue that GW1’s grind is worse than GW2’s, or even comparable.

It was just flat out worse. Getting “perfect” gear is so simple in GW2 right now. Salvage some rares, craft your exotic stuff. Do every day Level 10 fractals to get the daily reward and do the dailies to get laurels.

critickitten.1498:

You could play GW1 without perfect equipment, yes. But you’re living in a fantasy if you think that GW1’s perfect equipment was in any way nearly as much of a grind to obtain as GW2’s is.

No you just didn’t play the game at release.

And you pick and choose what era of GW1 you compare with to attempt to make your point. There were no faction required skills at release, or in Prophecies.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

kokiman.2364:

critickitten.1498:

Clearly we did play different games, because the game I played had armors of max power on sale for 1 platinum per piece. A few examples:

Never played at release, huh? Well I was actually referring to the game at the state of release until factions.

critickitten.1498:

Because there wasn’t a horrendous mandatory grind in GW1. There was grind, absolutely, but the grind was actually optional.

Skills that get stronger by grinding more factionpoints isn’t mandatory?

critickitten.1498:

It’s very difficult to argue that GW1’s grind is worse than GW2’s, or even comparable.

It was just flat out worse. Getting “perfect” gear is so simple in GW2 right now. Salvage some rares, craft your exotic stuff. Do every day Level 10 fractals to get the daily reward and do the dailies to get laurels.

critickitten.1498:

You could play GW1 without perfect equipment, yes. But you’re living in a fantasy if you think that GW1’s perfect equipment was in any way nearly as much of a grind to obtain as GW2’s is.

No you just didn’t play the game at release.

And you pick and choose what era of GW1 you compare with to attempt to make your point. There were no faction required skills at release, or in Prophecies.

Oh yeah gearwise Prophecies until Fractions and for the rest you can take the whole game even after 7-8 years.

Well, you are just wrong. GW1, I could get to EoTN at level 10 in starter armor. 5k for max armor, and never ever HAVE to buy another set again. Switch stats.. no huhu. One perfect kit, runes, good to go. No grinding to loot/buy gear every 10 levels, no need to buy an entire new set to change specs, either.

From that point, nothing I “needed” to grind. Sure, could grind up PvE skills, but I got paid well to do it. Anything else, cosmetic and optional.

Superior Vigor runes were the only high value rune, and a Luxury. Major Vigor was fine, and 2-3k.

Here, grind to craft, grind for cash, grind for gear, level up, do it some more, level up, do it some more, then get to 80 aand.. grind some more.

The only not-grind here is leveling. No doubt, fastest leveling I’ve ever seen to 80. Faster than you can craft gear, earn gear, or make cash.

I will state, I didn’t start this game until shortly before the Nov 15 patch. I do not know what the loot drops were before. My experience has been grinding for hours just to get fines and needed cash for essentials, certainly not banking any. That does color my “grind” perception, a lot.

Eric Clapton can play a $999 guitar better than you can play a $1000 one. Skill>Miniscule Stat.

PiSquare.2904:

Randulf, actually i said that GW 2 alienated most of the GW 1 playerbase is based off my knowledge, my friends, and the players i talked with. The overwhelming majority disliked the path GW 2 is going down.

And yes, you do good dmg, but someone with the ascended gear will outdamage a equally skilled player. Im a min maxer, i look at the numbers, and the numbers tell me that ascended gear will make me stronger and thats pretty much a fact. So tell me why shouldnt i rather pick someone with ascended gear over someone without? In GW 1 if someone had to switch roles and was playing GW for longer than a couple of months, he could do so in a matter of minutes. In GW 2 its a matter of months now.

Lets say i just geared my warrior with full prec pow crit% gear. And now someone wants me to play a condition dmg tanky build. Well i have to do dailies for 20 days and 1 monthly and 20 lvl 10 fractal runs just so i can swap the gear.

And no, im not satisfied with , its just a minor boost. Its flat out better gear.

In all honesty how often do you face someone equally skilled as yourself? I play in WvW a fair bit and i can honestly say that i am more skilled then a large number of players. Skill > Gear. I would pick someone who has more knowledge and skill than a dumb kitten with ascended gear. My lvl13 mesmer in WvW was kicking full exotic lvl80s behinds just cause i knew how to use my mesmer. Sure it took me longer to kill them but in the same note i still killed them.

I have never once been asked to change my build and GW2 made it harder to change your build as well (having to go to a retrainer) which deters people from doing it. If your so focused on getting ascended your missing the entire point of why Anet made it a time sink. The made it for that exact reason! So i say congratz Anet your time sink idea is working.

kokiman.2364:

Never played at release, huh? Well I was actually referring to the game at the state of release until factions.

So you’re referring to a game state which hasn’t been true for over 6 years in reaching for your examples of how GW1 is more grindy than GW2? And you expect anyone to take this argument seriously?

Skills that get stronger by grinding more factionpoints isn’t mandatory?

Not any more “mandatory” than grinding out skill points to buy an elite skill in GW2 that you never intend to use, no. I almost never used faction skills at all, so I stopped “grinding” those points the very moment I had enough to put a statue into my HoM and earn points for it in GW2.

It was just flat out worse. Getting “perfect” gear is so simple in GW2 right now. Salvage some rares, craft your exotic stuff. Do every day Level 10 fractals to get the daily reward and do the dailies to get laurels.

Which takes no less than a month to do. I can “grind” 5 platinum in GW1 in less than a day and be at max armor.

And that’s not even getting into the comparison of runes in that game versus runes in this game. 22 platinum in GW1 is far easier to acquire than the nearly 46 gold in GW2 to obtain a full set of Superior Runes of Divinity (for an example of “extreme” rune pricing in one game vs the other).

Your argument is completely and provably false. The grind of GW1 is nothing compared to GW2, and the grinds in GW2 are all far more mandatory (in that you must do them to achieve maximum stats, whereas in GW1 they were all about looks) than those in GW1.

No you just didn’t play the game at release.

Why are we comparing GW2 with a game that hasn’t existed since 2006?

No one cares how GW1 was “at release”, we’re comparing it to the grind of GW1 now because we live now. And right now, the grind in GW2 is far, far, far larger than any mandatory GW1 grind, which (I’ll note) you still haven’t actually found an example of.

Unless “faction skills” was meant to be your example, in which case you and I have a fundamental disagreement on the meaning of the word “mandatory”.