Guild Wars 2

What if a core trait line became an elite too.

For example the lines that was the primary trait line before specializations came in to place.

Warrior – discapline
Thief – trickery
Ele – arcane

Would that create build diversity or ruin it more?

I can see two potential frictions with that idea :

• It requires a broad trait overhaul for all traits of all professions, so that the core elite becomes really meaningful. I’d add that trait rework is deeply needed whatsoever. Especially since PoF’s elite seem to have, roughly, 3 mechanics highlighted in traits : core and HoT’s elite require to be raised to the very same standards.
• Some builds require both HoT elite traitline and that “core elite” traitline, so there’d be a lot of yelling against the idea.

That said, I’m not especially against it. Roughly, I’m not against big overhauls in traits and skills once in a time : it shakes the habits, which usually draws to more creativity in builds and the so-called meta. So I’m anticipating it’d create new builds. As for how many of them compared to what exists now, I don’t know.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

What if a core trait line became an elite too.

For example the lines that was the primary trait line before specializations came in to place.

Warrior – discapline
Thief – trickery
Ele – arcane

Would that create build diversity or ruin it more?

This would basically be adding another restriction on the options you have when making builds so I think it would harm build diversity. Those traitlines are mostly there to buff the class mechanics and those class mechanics are often just as important to the elite specs as they are to the base class.

A quick look at metabattle also shows that this change would “break” most of the Daredevil elite spec builds, a few Berserker builds and hardly any Tempest builds so there’s also the fact that the three lines you mention are not exactly equal in terms of their usefulness.

We’re not going to get away from the fact that there will always be a “meta build” that’s considered the “best” option for any given content.

• At best, your change would just change the traits in the “meta build” and those “meta builds” would probably be worse than they are now.
• At worst, some professions would no longer have a “meta build” that’s considered viable for specific types of content.

@pilfil that’s kinda my point. The idea was with the new elite specs were an optional choice and wasn’t meant to be godmode compared to the rest of the trait but look how powerful trickery and daredevil is, or beserker and discipline is (sustain nerfed from adrenaline health) yet both core builds are still viable, well core s/d is at least not tried d/p.

I like the idea of having core skills updated by a new specialization. So you have two trait lines with buffs for these skills/builds.

Engineer: Inventions + new specialization = Turreter
Necromancer: Death Magic + new specialization = Minion Master
Guardian: Zeal + new specialization = Zealot
…

Core Trait Lines are no specializations, they are the basics of a class.

So a clear no from me. It would destroy build diversity.

What would instead INCREASE build diversity would be reworking the Trait System to provide more Traits per Line and more Traitlines per Trait Category als also adding more Trait Categories per Class.

Simple Example between current Version and what I propose here with the Thief:

Thief has current 5 Core Trait Categories and soon for now 2 Elite Specialization Categories.
These Core Traitlines consistt out of 12 Traits per Line, from which are 3 build definers that are always given, 9 are optional you can choose from in a 3 section times 3 options way.
—

Now how do we seriously increase build diversity? We raise the amount of OPTIONS, because so more options people have, so higher is proportionally the build diversity players can have with their class.

If GW2 would provide now for example instead of 5 Core Traitlines now instead 7 Core Traitlines, allowing us to use instead of 3 now 4 Lines for our Build – this would increase diversity in GW2.

if we would have instead of a 3 section times 3 options trait system now a 4 section times 4 options-system..this would significantly increase build diversity.
Yes, it woudl make class balancing also a bit more complex, sure, but the proportional increase build diversity outweights this imo.

Then would consist each Traitline instead of 12 Traits now out of 16 Traits.
Throw the additional 2 Core Traitliens would come togegher 32 new Traits.
Plus the 4 from each of the already existing 5 Core Lines = +20.
SO this rework of the system woudl mean that each Class woudl get 52 new Traits.
52 new options, which would significantly increase the build diversity for each class for more and far better, than turning the Core Classes just into Elite Specs and this significantly REDUCING the variety as you can’t have more than 1 ES in you build.
Means if you make out of Core Traits now ES, then you can’t combine these traits anymore with the already existing ES traitlines, thus you massively criplle down as a result the build diversity ruining the game!!!

But just expanding the system to a bigger 4×4 format with additional two new core trait lines, this doesnt destroy the game, it improves just somethign we already have by providing more new options for build diversity. New options, which could also help in shaking up the meta

Thief for example should receive as additional Core Trait Lines

• Dexterity – as a Core Trait Line, which is fully focused in Initiative Management and Counterattacks through Dodges, as like ways of receiving Boons like Stability, Quickness and Protection.

• Thievery – as a Core Trait, that is focused on Steal, Boon Stealing, Enemy Attribute Leeching, Steal Skill Improvements, Increasement of Steal Skill Slots ect. to allow to steal more oftenly before having to wait on recharge

Each class easily has potential for 2 new Core Traitlines to improve that way their build diversity.

Warrior = Leadership & Motivation
Necromancer = Ritualism & Hexes
Ranger = Trappery & Hunting Instincts
Elementalist = Ice Magic & Lightning Magic (reworking Water/Wind Skills to fit better to the elements/sub elements here and you have also only Water Spells under Water Magic and no Ice Spells, addign also two new Attunements to Ele with new Weapon Skills)
Guardian = Authority & Dignity
Engineer = Repairment & Golemancy
Mesmer = Willpower & Mentality
Revenant = Empathy (Gwen) & Proud (Asgeir Dragonrender)

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Thief – trickery

Would that create build diversity or ruin it more?

It will simply destroy an entire class.

“Build Diversity” is a myth, and as such cannot be used to argue against streamlining build design.

Making the profession-specific train line an elite would make balancing easier which results in the players getting an increase in REAL choices. Would you prefer to have 20 options but only 2 of them are good or 10 options with 5 of them being good?

If you were to take a core trait line to create a core elite specialization, you also need to ask the question; For consistency, do you also keep the game design, style and philosophy of the current elite specs?

That would mean:
Trait line
Elite restricted weapon – likely needs to be taken from a current core weapon, which will be an issue with Engi because of how few core weapon it has.
Change in class mechanics – there should be a game play difference between an elite vs non-elite build (e.g. Guradian’s change in F-abilities, Thief’s extra dodge, Ele’s overloads)

Personally, I’m not sold on the idea.

Shirlias.8104:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Thief – trickery

Would that create build diversity or ruin it more?

It will simply destroy an entire class.

It would now yes since hot has been out too long and nearly all thieves rely on both trickery and daredevil. Core s/d works pretty good now with the changes to #2 and swindles equalibaim or what ever it’s called.

mtpelion.4562:

“Build Diversity” is a myth, and as such cannot be used to argue against streamlining build design.

Making the profession-specific train line an elite would make balancing easier which results in the players getting an increase in REAL choices. Would you prefer to have 20 options but only 2 of them are good or 10 options with 5 of them being good?

I prefer more options with all of them potentially good, instead of decreasing options through pointless changes of turnign core traits into ES-Traits, because what you write down here is nothinng more than your own personal assumption of how it would end up.

Fact is, nobody will know, how increased options wil lend up, we could also end up after your exampel with 10 new options and all ten end up beign good.
It codl end up also with 10 new options and none of them are in your optioning “good”, because they don’t fit maybe to your own prsonal playstyle, but mybe for tons of other players it exactly does!!

“Being Good” is relative

But fact is, increasign the options proportionally will increase the diversity… reducign the options will not, it will instead limitate only the diversity end enforces only more meta builds upon all players the less alternatives there are, letting ANet also have alot lesser playroom for balance chances so lesser options for changes exist to attempt class balance through various different ways and not just only through a reduction of build diversity, which woudl be like mentioned before totally counterproductive and it would also, like mentioned by Shirlias destroy even whole classes, if suddenly specific Trailines that are mandatory for classes like the Thief to be Core Traitlines, would get changed into ES Lines and suddenly can’t then be combined anymore together wioth Daredevil for example.

Seriously, what would change this for the game, other then destroying classes and build diversity?
I see absolutely NOTHING positive, that would come from turning core traitlines now into ES Lines.

Adding more Core Traitlines and enhancign the 3×3 system of traits into a 4×4 system actually would be a positive change for more build diversity, without that classes get destroyed by this change!
Even just only changing the system from 3×3 to 4×4 alone would be already far enough, addign new core traitliones was just an additional idea of mine I came up with now.

Just adding 4 new traits for each class can be already enough of an change, if those 4 traits for each class are very well designed and impactive enough to be a good alternative to use over the already existing traits, because then was the change actually successful as it created then actually really more build diversity, when alot of peopel consider continuing to play their class with the new traits instead of the older ones – it don#t have to be all palyers switching traits now, but when just alot of people consider actually a change and play then nmore around with the different new traits – then the adding of new traits was then good enough of a reason to do it for more build diversity.

If such new traits end up being a comlete fail, cause nobody uses them, then this woudl b just a sign for Anet, that they woudl have to return to the scratch board and change the new traits, until they make some, which get used by the people often enough to keep them so in the game.

“Good” in this context means “Used as or competitive with a Meta build for at least one game area”.

Limiting the number of combinations makes it easier to balance the remaining combinations, which will increase the usefulness of each option.

Replying to opening post : That would ruin build diversity, since you’re making an unnecessary restriction. No thanks.

I’m in favor of this change. I thought they would go this route before HoT. It would be nice if the core professions remained competitive and an exclusive trait line would help.

I don’t think more options increases build diversity. There needs to be an equal opportunity cost when selecting traits. Some trait lines are better than others and some of the individual traits are far superior to the other options in their tier.

The base trait lines need to be adjusted so they are closer to elite trait lines in viability. Core professions need to keep the same level as the new specs.

What I’m trying to say is every traitline should, ideally, offer the same overall viability for builds, so elites don’t become mandatory, and base lines can be used with or without elite specs.

This of course means a lot of work, and sadly is probably not going to happen.

Any trait line that you lock down and say would be considered elite would crash a multiple of peoples builds. The 5 core ones are the backbone of the class. So have to agree not for that.

Also after the last patch I would put (and actually am in PvP & WvW) core builds against elites. That last patch did a lot to add more synergy into some builds. The Ammo change alone made more core abilities more viable as well making it so they nudge out some elites abilities. Will we need tuning on the new elites, sure, but cores feeling pretty good right now.

mtpelion.4562:

“Good” in this context means “Used as or competitive with a Meta build for at least one game area”.

Limiting the number of combinations makes it easier to balance the remaining combinations, which will increase the usefulness of each option.

Tell that to Ranger, which takes quick draw in EVERY build due to how universally powerful it is. Taking away quick draw would force them to use other traits… but none of those trait choices results in better performance.

The problem here is that class mechanics are NOT omni-fucntional to every build. Guardian Virtue actives are beyond impractical, and is why Dragonhunter replaced them with extremely high utility functions. Thief steal has no support options what-so-ever. Ranger pet, for all its diversity, is still a hot mess, and is more of a passive weapon then an active mechanic (hell, even the Flesh golem is a better active weapon, and has even less control in it). Engie Tool belt skills are incredibly straight forward, and the Tools line was only ever taken because of endurance bonus and swiftness, as it only really needed Firearms and/or Explosives for the majority of builds. And as the most extreme case, Ele only benefited from Arcane for Staff AOE size and access to Blast Finishers….. elements that were hardly build defining.

In order for the “Exclusive” trait line, which is aimed at enhancing the class mechanic, to be an Espec, it has to be universally applicable to ALL builds in Core. The reality is it was rarely taken, because the class mechanic itself was not universally applicable, and generally not as powerful as weapon/utility combos (which get stronger boosts from traits anyway).

To even consider making that a Espec, every trait would have to reexamined, and the Class mechanics themselves buffed into universal utility. That trait line would also have to be made synergistic with the other 4 core traits, which is hard to make sense of considering the GM line of those 4 core traits are supposed to be build defining themselves. Frankly, I don’t trust the designers to get this right, because they’re going to have to resort to “best in slot” options for specific pairings with utilities and weapons….. which also means those skills will have to be revamped as well.