Guild Wars 2

Ropechef.6192:

something to think about…

I see all the time the notion of adjusting mob AI to be more “intelligent” or (insert random what not here)

It is already done. It already exists. the problem is that it is some of the most hated, and despised portion of the entire world of Tyria. Day in and day out there is an equal number of complaints, moaning and whining about a “smart” AI. a low power fast hitting self buffing and group buffing and dodging and moving AWAY from the LoS spot…

the Underground Facility.

ALL of the things you are all asking for in a mob AI exists already in that single fractal. and it murders 90 percent of the playerbase.

think about that

It has been a long time since my last high/mid level fractal run, but I don’t remeber any dredge dodging, nor I’ve noticed them attacking faster or LoS-ing on a different way than any other enemy.
They use AoE buffs and that’s a nice thing. However, from what I’d read, they tend to reapply them instantly if stripped, which makes the whole mechanic pointless.

I don’t think dredge AI is better than usual.
They’re just annoying to fight for several reasons like inmunity to blind or CC spam (which isn’t a bad thing on its own but becomes really annoying when you have to fight craploads of dredges at the same time, which is quite usual).
And then, specific of the underground facility, we have really anoying events like the clown clar or even the bomb event, that make us fight dredge spawns over and over for ages.

Gearbox.2748:

frans.8092:

Gearbox.2748:

You know- you can just -choose-- not to have zerker gear. It might be less efficient but the majority of the content is still doable without stacking and zerker gear etc.- It’s just often slower.

Why?

Why do you want other people to stop wearing a specific set of gear? Why can’t they use the builds they like and are comfortable with?

ehm. I don’t… “want other people … etc” .— that was the point of the post.
you can just choose not to wear zerker.

I guess you miss his point. I would say he knows that he can choose not to zerker.
His point is there is no other option available.

If you go full on defense you can be killed same easily like zerker outfit you just
kill slower.
I’m sure he was talking about making other stuff usable. Something like stances or
special armor skills “tank” a zerker. Of course that includes no to deal too much damage.

But a change like that alone would populate different builds and game style in general.
Well… i can also see why not too many people like that.
It’s too tempting for the kids these days just to push #2 button

Honestly you can get pretty ridiculous passive defense if your groups specs for it. Perfectly viable for anything. Problem is that it will be slow but I have yet to see any reasonable ideas to fix that.

Nerelith.7360:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Nerelith.7360:

When I heard about this game, the idea was “Control, Support, and damage” you could decide which one you wanted to focus.

Whoever first stated that the GW2 Trinity would be damage, control and support did a disservice to the game. Calling it a trinity evoked the old trinity, which has dedicated and static roles. This created the impression that “focusing” on being a healer or controller was going to be a dedicated, static “thing” as part of the optimum strategy for group play.

Even in PvP/WvW, where control is used a lot, it’s not a dedicated role. Nor is healing others a dedicated role, unless I’m much mistaken. Instead, if there is a PvP trinity, it’s Conditions, Glass, and Bunker, with further specialization depending on profession and what you’re doing at any given time.

You ignored the quote you used. " you could decide which one you wanted to focus on."

People say that changing Mob AI would make things harder than they are now, and maybe it might also make the trip to level 80 last longer.

Good. That is what a good game needs, challenge, and longevity. A week to hit level 80, is not good game design.

Honestly, it should take 3 to 6 months of solid consistent game play to hit level cap in my opinion. Then the Crafting would also have value. Crafting is not a major part of the economy because people zip through levels so fast that it doesn’t make sense to do anything other than play the TP, or Buy gems.

A lot of players seem to want the game to be an easy ride from 1-80… and then " the game starts at 80." The problem here is… This type of mentality resists challenge, avoids the need for patience, and dedication. It’s giving in to the cry of youth…" I want it all, I want it all, I want it all…and I want it now."

Sometimes good things are worth waiting for, and that which takes Longer is more appreciated. If the climb to Everest were simple as getting on an elevator… it would be less appreciated.

I think the nerf was an easy out, that ultimately will not work. I think the whole Mob and Boss AI, Mob combat, needs to be re-envisioned. And if it takes Longer to hit level 80… ultimately that is a good thing… even if players scream.

I’m sorry, I thought I was addressing the comment, “You could decide which one you wanted to focus on.” To reword the point: when someone (ANet, I think?) said, "The GW2 “trinity” will be control, support and damage." this created the impression that “focusing” on one or the other would be a choice made on the gearing level, to the exclusion of the other roles, rather than from moment to moment during a fight.

I agree with you that it’s too easy to level in GW2. Too many things give experience, and ANet’s “hour and a half per level” means ~hundred and twenty hour leveling curve, with some folks getting there sooner.

What makes challenge in GW2? To master the game, you have to have situational awareness, knowledge of what various skills/traits do and decent twitch reflexes to time dodges, blocks, etc. If you’ve got those, the game can be very easy in spots, especially those dominated by herds of players. However, there is a huge spread with regard to those knowledges/skills and abilities in the player-base, especially outside of dungeons. Unfortunately, the trend in MMO’s lately seems to be to set the challenge level so as to attract the biggest numbers. For all that earlier MMO’s provided more challenge, they never boasted the large player numbers that WoW does/did. I also doubt they had concurrency numbers like GW2 boasted of last year, though I’d be willing to be proved wrong on that one. Development companies are catering to the most money.

All of that means that I have come to the conclusion that in order to find consistent challenge in a “modern” MMO, one has to play PvP.

Can you tank Lupi and win with 5 Cleric Guardians?

IndigoSundown.5419:

….

All of that means that I have come to the conclusion that in order to find consistent challenge in a “modern” MMO, one has to play PvP.

Might as well play Street Fighter or any other fighting game. Why would I bother with a MMORPG?

Twitch reflexes are great if you are in the US with a good internet connection with little lag. I would even settle for reliable connectivity to GW2 servers, given frequent DCs on Anet’s servers end.

Nerelith.7360:

I was here at release. I remember how Gw2 advertised itself. I saw the videos On youtube.

Then you missed/misunderstood this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSIna5oeNlQ#t=9

Nerelith.7360:

We were told there would be 3 game mechanics… Control, Support, and Damage. We have the tools for all three, but we only have a need for one.

Meta teams use support, control, and damage. If you think support and control is exclusively from stats, then that’s real funny. The reason why they perform so well in full damage stats is mainly because they know how to use support and control at the right moment.

All games have a meta, what game doesn’t? You can chop your tree with your hammer if you want, but that doesn’t mean other people are obligated to join you.

This is an action game and being that it touches a little of reality. So I ask the question again, when a fist is heading towards your face why would someone want to take that hit like an idiot? Who get’s into a fight not wanting to subdue his opponent? Even combat medics carry guns.

Nerelith.7360:

A week to hit level 80, is not good game design.

No, that’s what YOU think. GW1 was only level 20 and you hit it very early – it was arguably “good design”. Many games don’t even have leveling up.

Bread.7516:

Meta teams use support, control, and damage. If you think support and control is exclusively from stats, then that’s real funny….

Defiance /15chars.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Bread.7516:

Meta teams use support, control, and damage. If you think support and control is exclusively from stats, then that’s real funny….

Defiance /15chars.

aww how cute
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control
read please

Khal Drogo.9631:

Can you tank Lupi and win with 5 Cleric Guardians?

I’m too lazy to search for rT’s No-Dodge-Arah2 run right now. So the answer is yes.

Agnima.3714:

The only ones really able to get away with full berserker gear and standing in the corner and not getting downed every other special are warriors. I don’t like running full berserker gear in dungeons and I suppose its a blessing for all the other people doing it since after they get downed I am there to bail them out and get them back on their feet. I’ve seen more runs fail from people unable to take the hits then from people being too tanky. Not a single class has infinite dodges available at every moment or no CD heals.

Not saying people need to be rolling wvw tank builds into dungeons, but it really wouldn’t hurt if you put on a few pieces of knights gear, your slightly lower dps would hardly be noticeable in the overall speed of the run. In fact it might speed it up because you weren’t downed by random trash or the occasional boss hit causing your personal dps to drop and at least one other persons to stop completely while they get you back up.

Just a few quick points.

1) I use a full berserker Guardian, which means I can get insta-downed very easily. When it is time to stack I don’t just stand in the corner and hope to not get downed. That’s what blinds, aegis, and dodges are for.

2) If I do get downed I don’t expect people to just stop and res me, that’s what the rally system is for.

3) Of course no class has infinite dodges and there are CDs. The whole point is to manage those so that you aren’t sol when the time comes you need them.

4) Knight’s gear does hurt because I like to see big numbers and that prevents me from seeing them. :S
Also, it is noticeable when people aren’t in full berserker gear.

That’s the wrong way to phrase your concern. When you talk about nerfing zerker, that invites people to say they don’t want the game to be less action oriented or something, which misses the point. It’s not about zerker getting nerfed, it’s about mechanics that support other types of builds and play styles. I know that’s what you present in the OP, but people don’t read.

A lot of people here do get it at least and have made some really good points. Nerelith’s posts are really solid, well done sir. Especially this:

Nerelith.7360:

We were told there would be 3 game mechanics… Control, Support, and Damage. We have the tools for all three, but we only have a need for one.

That line is so good, I’m a little jealous. Seriously, this is pve in a nutshell.

But let’s look at wvw, there is no zerker meta there. I use a power based ele, condition spammer necro, support/dps guardian, and a support warrior. Other builds have value there and it’s not just “dodge or die.” Mechanics like that could help out pve, while not mitigating the use of zerker.

Basically, mobs use skills similar to what we use, it worked in gw1. That way mobs won’t use an attack and then stand there, awkwardly staring at you for 3 seconds before attacking again.

What if a few mobs and bosses had obvious-tell heal skills on a long cool down? Stunning at the right time becomes important making control more viable. Mobs could have defense skills, and use them smarter. For instance, Ascolonian warriors wouldn’t use shield stance immediately when you see them, making you sit there staring at them. Instead they might use it strategically, like when you’re actually attacking them. Make more directional attacks so kiting is more important.

Changing classes a bit is necessary too. Warriors can provide good team support while still specced for dps, just bring a banner and For Great Justice. I guess that’s an issue for another thread though.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

DarkWasp.7291:

You can slow zerkers down but that won’t change:

• 1-shot mechanics invalidating tanks and heals.
• The way conditions override other party members’ conditions.
• The Defiant mechanic, AKA CC is really only really usable once per boss/champ.

So long as those issues remain, the last two parts of the damage, support, control triangle aren’t going to look too attractive.

My original questions assume that nerfing zerker would specifically involve changing things like you mention here. For example, tripling mob attack speeds while proportionately reducing damage would eliminate the 1-shot mechanic you mention. I also mentioned defiant. If ANet did make changes to those things, would the resulting gameplay be worse or better? I can see folks seeing it either way. I’m just mainly interested in why.

The above problems are just lazy programming. It would require more work from Anet, I don’t know if they would force themselves into that. I also think increasing hits per foes is a bad idea due to the RNG this game over-employs. I would rather see 3 times more foes. It would just be more satisfying to kill more faster as opposed to grinding a gazillion health down to zero for XX minutes.

Well, regardless, Anet is making changes in the future so that we can do more than just kill things faster to better support each other. What I’m hearing from the reluctant folks here is that when there are changes, we need the support and healing builds to be more active than passive and should require a decent amount of skill to pull off. That way, you can be an awesome group healer or shut down mobs with skill, all while killing things fast too. I don’t see why we can’t allow amazing healing builds that do good damage so long as it is a skill based build. That’s the logic behind allowing people to stack PPF and still survive as well as they do, right? Let’s move forward with that trend instead of stagnating. Passive defense = boring. Active defense = awesome.

nightwulf.1986:

Well, regardless, Anet is making changes in the future so that we can do more than just kill things faster to better support each other. What I’m hearing from the reluctant folks here is that when there are changes, we need the support and healing builds to be more active than passive and should require a decent amount of skill to pull off. That way, you can be an awesome group healer or shut down mobs with skill, all while killing things fast too. I don’t see why we can’t allow amazing healing builds that do good damage so long as it is a skill based build. That’s the logic behind allowing people to stack PPF and still survive as well as they do, right? Let’s move forward with that trend instead of stagnating. Passive defense = boring. Active defense = awesome.

You said it yourself : Passive defense = boring. Active defense = awesome.

But ppl who want to nerf berserker meta want passive defense. Stats on gear are passive, your skills are active. Zerker wouldn’t be able to exist without active skills. Thats why so many ppl in zerker gear sucks – they expect to kill things with just zerker gear without pushing other buttons …

You want to play your awesome group healer, which would do good dmg at the same time – now that would be crazy OP, becouse that not how gw2 was designed . In other games such role is required, becouse dps classes ussualy have only limited healing (if any) and low dmg mitigation, so they need healers and tanks. But in gw2 all have superb dmg avoidance (dodge) and all have personal heals. With players who know their class, you dont need party healer – all have already what they need.

Bread.7516:

Nerelith.7360:

I was here at release. I remember how Gw2 advertised itself. I saw the videos On youtube.

Then you missed/misunderstood this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSIna5oeNlQ#t=9

Nerelith.7360:

We were told there would be 3 game mechanics… Control, Support, and Damage. We have the tools for all three, but we only have a need for one.

Meta teams use support, control, and damage. If you think support and control is exclusively from stats, then that’s real funny. The reason why they perform so well in full damage stats is mainly because they know how to use support and control at the right moment.

All games have a meta, what game doesn’t? You can chop your tree with your hammer if you want, but that doesn’t mean other people are obligated to join you.

This is an action game and being that it touches a little of reality. So I ask the question again, when a fist is heading towards your face why would someone want to take that hit like an idiot? Who get’s into a fight not wanting to subdue his opponent? Even combat medics carry guns.

Nerelith.7360:

A week to hit level 80, is not good game design.

No, that’s what YOU think. GW1 was only level 20 and you hit it very early – it was arguably “good design”. Many games don’t even have leveling up.

I do admit I Missed that Video, but it still does back up My point. They say any class can fill any role, support, control…damage. but all you need is to bring on the damage .
If anyone tries to say " hey, maybe Mob AI should be changed so that conditions make sense, so that wearing more toughness or vitality makes sense, so that having more Into healing makes sense. Having More Points Put into tanking skills makes sense." The damage crowd all scream bloody murder about " NOOO that way lies the Holy Trinity!!!!"

Is it so bad to ask for MORE challenging combat that requires More than " dodge…. dodge…dodge….full damage gear… damage Skills." ?

I came to gw2 expecting more. based On what they promised. As I said, we have all these wonderful tools… would be Nice if using them were not Just " ooh look cool skills to use cause I feel like it." and More Like" Ok, let me switch to a support build…. this is needed in this encounter…and appreciated by my teammates."

It seems that all that is needed is damage, and all that is appreciated is… damage.

The heart of the matter is, everybody is already capable of using boons and control skills with any gear. It makes other stats feel redundant in PVE where the ease of gameplay and the Defiant system reduces the value of defensive gear and control skills while simultaneously being incapable of improving the effectiveness of many of your skills, while in Berserker gear you can get some kitten fine damage and still have complete access to dodges, protection, aegis, and enough healing to self-sustain properly.

What I would prefer is that healing power and toughness become actually capable of increasing the power of one’s boons, like aegis at certain toughness thresholds granting an extra block, shields being able to absorb more damage before failing, or the protection you give out adding a percentage to its total based on your character’s toughness, maybe have healing power contribute to boon duration as well for added utility. Add in more abilities that allow a player to take damage for their fellow players at a reduced amount, put it on a cooldown and limited timer to make it a reactionary ability, but something that can still be used often enough to be useful.

Allowing ranged characters to more consistently benefit from boons would be nice too.

The thing that makes the gear choices stale is that lack of direct interactivity with one’s own abilities. You can talk about how the effectiveness of boons on an individual character are improved by their own stats, but I find the lack of interactivity unfun, especially when grouping with others and seeing that all of their boons would do the exact same amount all the time for everyone in the party, with boon duration being about the only differentiating factor among them.

Which would still leave the issue of the game not being challenging enough to warrant the extra support and control, but I would at least like to see some more direct interactivity between abilities and stats.

Hello gear checks!

Nope.

The only reason why zerker reigns is that no stats are mandatory. You can do pve content with non-dps builds; it just takes longer. Therefore if you are good and all stats are not needed, then the best stat is naturally the damage one.

To me there is no problem. This so called “zerker meta” only affects speedrun groups, and you shouldn’t be joining speedrun groups if you don’t want to dps.

Until they fix pve conditions, nothing will change.

Nerelith.7360:

…..
I do admit I Missed that Video, but it still does back up My point. They say any class can fill any role, support, control…damage. but all you need is to bring on the damage

If anyone tries to say " hey, maybe Mob AI should be changed so that conditions make sense, so that wearing more toughness or vitality makes sense, so that having more Into healing makes sense. Having More Points Put into tanking skills makes sense." The damage crowd all scream bloody murder about " NOOO that way lies the Holy Trinity!!!!"

Is it so bad to ask for MORE challenging combat that requires More than " dodge…. dodge…dodge….full damage gear… damage Skills." ?

I came to gw2 expecting more. based On what they promised. As I said, we have all these wonderful tools… would be Nice if using them were not Just " ooh look cool skills to use cause I feel like it." and More Like" Ok, let me switch to a support build…. this is needed in this encounter…and appreciated by my teammates."

It seems that all that is needed is damage, and all that is appreciated is… damage.
…..

I’m looking at it at a perspective of what GW2 is right now and not what it can be since I do play other games.

Full DPS teams bring active control and support via utility. Support doesn’t exclusively mean stats.

Full DPS teams are meta and should only be used for people who know exactly what to do and when, they’re for really fast runs. You can see for yourself that many PUG parties have failed trying to replicate this on the fly. So in the sense of casual runs with casual players a little support stats and traits is appreciated, but when playing with optimized parties it should be apparent that you’re leaning towards the meta (which is unavoidable).

From the “what it can be” perspective.

Mob AI change, a lot of people wanted this (me included), but some people’s idea of how it can be changed and mine would be completely different. So it’s all about pleasing which crowd, also there is the crowd that just finds it fine – so which crowd gives them more money?

Challenge can mean very different things depending on genre, saying that all dodge and damage is not challenging is a fallacy since if you look at other games like dark souls – it is regarded as challenging and a success; GW2 makes dodging easier because of a huge 0.75 seconds of invulnerability. But of course GW2 will not be like that game since it caters to a wider audience. So it brings back the question – which side spends more money.

Also I assume they don’t use hitboxes/collision meshes so it is incapable of having more flexibility when it comes to intuitive dodging of swings, rather they use something similar to an RTS.

Morsus.5106:

Zerker will remain on top not because it’s just too powerful, but because the others are pretty redundant.

this.

+1
and lets not start about support/debuff/bunker game style.

even condition DPS in PVE was not designed properly…
power eles and guardians occupy the burning slot 50% of the time,
condi ranger or engy drop their DPS by 50%.
same with poison.

bleeds?
power warrior and power rangers stack bleeds on crits, taking bleed slots from condition specced classes…

and the cap? two condition users in the same group are redundant.
only one condition user allowed and only if he use bleeds or confusion, as other conditions ( burn and poison) will not work for 50% of the time.

have you tried destroying burrows with condition spec?

Nerfing Berserker’s is pointless IMHO, because it penalizes those who prefer doing max direct damage. IMHO it should always remain as the more powerful direct damage option, as there are many players who are all up for that, and who are we to deny them?

What is sad is those stat combos that have the same risk as Berserker’s but generally also do less damage as well. IMHO, Berserker’s should represent a berserker’s playstyle, going into battle in a rage and risking his/her life to attain more damage. Which is partially true, of course-you have zero natural survivability other than your dodges, skills, and traits, but what about Rampager’s? VS Berserker’s, the rampager character has actually a greater risk in battles due to the overall damage being less than that of a berserker, while having the same zero survivability but enemies still lasting a bit longer, which risks their character’s lives with them being so squishy.

I am, however, in favor of all game changes that will encourage the use of things other than Berserker’s. Traits, AI changes, or whatever that will help people appreciate other combos outside PvP. That said, nerfing Berserker’s gear is unfair to those who like and effectively use those offensive stats-no “nerf zerk!” is necessary for other gear to shine (and to a limited extent, those other stats can already excel as long as you don’t care about what other people think-which rarely players do, quite unfortunately, as they are prone to caring too much about getting “rejected”, doing things the way everybody else does, etc.)

If you ask me, do play how you want, but do not join-or belittle-those who don’t wish you to play how you want. Same goes for the other guys-play your speedclear runs, but don’t be mad at people or call them “bads” for choosing to play whatever they like-it’s their gaming experience, not yours, so just don’t play with them (no need for silly epithets like “playhowyouwants”, etc.)

I sneak in plenty of knight gear and no one notices. Condition damage being completely unviable is a problem though, at the very least make it personal.

You can’t buff conditions because that’s the current meta in sPvP.

You can’t nerf zerker because everything’s a DPS race in PvE (teq/wurm)

You can’t buff Heals or Tank unless you plan to go trinity.

Anet shot themselves in the foot here, any change in one area affects the others.

Nerf as in remove critical damage completely?

Let see, not a big change, warriors and guardians will still have their place.

Nerelith.7360:

It seems that all that is needed is damage, and all that is appreciated is… damage.

And yet you compltely missed something in the post you quoted!

Meta teams use support, control, and damage. If you think support and control is exclusively from stats, then that’s real funny. The reason why they perform so well in full damage stats is mainly because they know how to use support and control at the right moment.

It’s not all damage, the actual meta teams do EVERYTHING, damage, support, buff, heal EVERYTHING

If you join a team that just wants damage then that team is an epic failure

The only “problem” in this game is that Berserkers can do EVERYTHING almost equally well as the other gear stats.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Can you tank Lupi and win with 5 Cleric Guardians?

You can. I can’t find that video now but I did get this:

See how “underpowered” Healing Power, Healing Skills and “Support” is in this game?

maddoctor.2738:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Can you tank Lupi and win with 5 Cleric Guardians?

You can. I can’t find that video now but I did get this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMltxyvAvo

See how “underpowered” Healing Power, Healing Skills and “Support” is in this game?

There can be only one consequence: Nerf cleric!

My opinion:
Zerker is for the highest possible direct damage. The current nerf was because zerkers weren’t supposed to do the amount of damage it did.

Well, next step for ANet is to update hostile NPCs:
include more high armor low health foes, which makes direct damage source less potent, though this would increase power-conditiondmg hybrid builds, like rampager gear.
create some sort of AI that like example: switches between defensive and offensive skill sets. Inflict more direct damage within set time period and the hostile NPC switches to defensive mode.
And Defiant, that’s abit mystery for me how that would be changed. For PvE, if big boss is zerged, it does make sense to prevent players from stun locking the boss, but as zerging goes, it’s least tactical strategy.
In dungeons, I think defiant works pretty much as intended, tho the simplicity of hostile NPCs makes use of zerker build more favorable.

FrostSpectre.4198:

And Defiant, that’s abit mystery for me how that would be changed. For PvE, if big boss is zerged, it does make sense to prevent players from stun locking the boss, but as zerging goes, it’s least tactical strategy.
In dungeons, I think defiant works pretty much as intended, tho the simplicity of hostile NPCs makes use of zerker build more favorable.

That would be incredibly simple: Introduce diminishing returns on CC effects for mobs that have the unshakable buff. First stun works full duration, second one only 50 %, third one 25 %, fourth one immune. Reset after a reasonable amount of time (something like 30-60 s), probably pool some CC effects like knockdown+knockback and stun+daze so you can’t lock the boss down forever by cycling through the different effects.

Nerelith.7360:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Nerelith.7360:

When I heard about this game, the idea was “Control, Support, and damage” you could decide which one you wanted to focus.

Whoever first stated that the GW2 Trinity would be damage, control and support did a disservice to the game. Calling it a trinity evoked the old trinity, which has dedicated and static roles. This created the impression that “focusing” on being a healer or controller was going to be a dedicated, static “thing” as part of the optimum strategy for group play.

Even in PvP/WvW, where control is used a lot, it’s not a dedicated role. Nor is healing others a dedicated role, unless I’m much mistaken. Instead, if there is a PvP trinity, it’s Conditions, Glass, and Bunker, with further specialization depending on profession and what you’re doing at any given time.

You ignored the quote you used. " you could decide which one you wanted to focus on."

People say that changing Mob AI would make things harder than they are now, and maybe it might also make the trip to level 80 last longer.

Good. That is what a good game needs, challenge, and longevity. A week to hit level 80, is not good game design.

Honestly, it should take 3 to 6 months of solid consistent game play to hit level cap in my opinion. Then the Crafting would also have value. Crafting is not a major part of the economy because people zip through levels so fast that it doesn’t make sense to do anything other than play the TP, or Buy gems.

A lot of players seem to want the game to be an easy ride from 1-80… and then " the game starts at 80." The problem here is… This type of mentality resists challenge, avoids the need for patience, and dedication. It’s giving in to the cry of youth…" I want it all, I want it all, I want it all…and I want it now."

Sometimes good things are worth waiting for, and that which takes Longer is more appreciated. If the climb to Everest were simple as getting on an elevator… it would be less appreciated.

I think the nerf was an easy out, that ultimately will not work. I think the whole Mob and Boss AI, Mob combat, needs to be re-envisioned. And if it takes Longer to hit level 80… ultimately that is a good thing… even if players scream.

The Guild Wars franchise was never about hitting the level cap after a long period of time or with a lot of hardship.

This was one of the main concerns people hand when it was announced that the level cap would be 80 ( as opposed to the GW1 cap of 20). People don’t want to take forever leveling up.

I’ve never come across a player in game saying " man I wish it’d take me longer to level up" or " I wish I didn’t hit 80 so soon".

The real game does start at level 80 because at that point you can stop improving your character power-wise and start working towards improving his look ( game’s intended horizontal progression) and towards improving yourself as a player ( game’s intended dodge-based organic combat system).

Reduce boss monster HP.
Increase boss monster DMG and Attack rate.
Increase Healing Power and CC.
Update boss monster AI.

Monsters hit harder and more often – toughness and heals more viable.

Example – full Zerk, 2 hits, you’re dead, 10 hits to kill monster.
Full PTV, 10 hits you’re dead, 20 hits to kill monster.

Just an idea. Not going to happen must keep it simple and casual.

Nerelith.7360:

Bread.7516:

Has anyone of you “pls nerf zerk i want to be dedicated tank/heal” people ever played an action game?

FYI you dont really win a fight by being a sand bag.

Just because gw2 is an mmo (which isn’t a genre by itself) doesn’t mean the mechanics will be your reskinned [insert typical spank and tank rpg game]. Gw2 is (and andvertised as such) mainly an action game mmo hybrid with other elements.

I was here at release. I remember how Gw2 advertised itself. I saw the videos On youtube.

They said that they were doing away with the typical Healer, Tank, Damage Holy trinity. They said there would be no dedicated healer, and No Locked In classes. The idea that if you play an elementalist you arte Locked in to being a damage dealer. etc… warrior tank…etc…

I remember how Gw2 advertised itself.

They said that there would be three basic game mehcaniscs. Control, Support, and Damage. This is what Gw2 promised. Now the tools are there for any of the three.

The issue is, it’s Like being given a toolbox, with hammers , and screwdrivers, and saws, and nuts and bolts, and wrenches, and chainsaws…. then being told " chop down that tree."

Ok, you get the chainsaw and go at the tree. Then they say again " Chop down that tree." so you go again with the chainsaw. All this time, all the game asks is for you to chop trees, so you never touch any of the other tools in the box. Now some players are saying " wouldn’t it be cool if we could join these peices of wood with a screw driver and screws?" And you have many saying " But I Like this chainsaw!!!"

We were told there would be 3 game mechanics… Control, Support, and Damage. We have the tools for all three, but we only have a need for one.

Guild Wars 2 has support.

You have to realize though that support in GW2 isn’t what players came here imagining it’d be. It’s not being a healbot in tanky gear.

Support in GW2 means :

-Buffing your allies’ damage output using boons or banners or whatnot.
-Buffing your allies’ dodge capability by granting vigor.
-Helping your allies survive more by using water fields and blast finishers.
-Using reflects to keep your team alive.
-Using ports to keep your team going and skip problematic areas.
-Using stealth to avoid the avoidable fight.
-Using protection to keep your party up.
-Using blind to avoid a boss’ heavy attack.

That’s what support is. It’s all these little things that people seem not to notice but that really do make a difference.

Try going melee versus Lupicus without a feedback mesmer and see the difference.
Try doing the Uncategorized fractal without reflects and you’ll realize support is in the game it and it does make a difference.

Control is in the game but as long as we have Defiant we won’t really be seeing too much of it.

Star Ace.5207:

If you ask me, do play how you want, but do not join-or belittle-those who don’t wish you to play how you want. Same goes for the other guys-play your speedclear runs, but don’t be mad at people or call them “bads” for choosing to play whatever they like-it’s their gaming experience, not yours, so just don’t play with them (no need for silly epithets like “playhowyouwants”, etc.)

People get called bads and playhowyouwants because they constantly join zerk groups without zerk gear and try to alter the gaming experiences of others who want to do full zerk runs (yes, that is a generalization, but it’s often true). This is the biggest problem with the game and NOT the zerk meta. These threads or threads like it pop up all the time because people don’t group up with people with the same mindset. People don’t read lfg descriptions and end up in parties that they don’t fit the requirements. My solution to the zerk “problem”: improve reading comprehension and group with like minded individuals. It’s really that SIMPLE.

Other people have said it many times in this thread (especially Bread), but all classes/gear have the ability to control, support and damage. Most people just don’t understand how to use it and/or when to use it so they claim we don’t have it. Control maybe not as much because of the poorly implemented and lazyily designed mechanic that is Defiant, but control is still there if used properly.

This game has it’s obvious flaws and balance issues, but it always seems to me that people who complain about zerkers or wanting their builds to be more viable is they just want to be accepted into any run at any time. Instead of worrying about “being more viable”, when all builds are viable in PVE already, you should spend more time finding people who run the same builds and want to play how you want to play. I suppose that would require work on your end, but why do that when you can beg Anet to change the game to fit your ideals of how it should be?

Nerelith.7360:

I do admit I Missed that Video, but it still does back up My point. They say any class can fill any role, support, control…damage. but all you need is to bring on the damage .
If anyone tries to say " hey, maybe Mob AI should be changed so that conditions make sense, so that wearing more toughness or vitality makes sense, so that having more Into healing makes sense. Having More Points Put into tanking skills makes sense." The damage crowd all scream bloody murder about " NOOO that way lies the Holy Trinity!!!!"

Is it so bad to ask for MORE challenging combat that requires More than " dodge…. dodge…dodge….full damage gear… damage Skills." ?

I came to gw2 expecting more. based On what they promised. As I said, we have all these wonderful tools… would be Nice if using them were not Just " ooh look cool skills to use cause I feel like it." and More Like" Ok, let me switch to a support build…. this is needed in this encounter…and appreciated by my teammates."

It seems that all that is needed is damage, and all that is appreciated is… damage.

Doesn’t mean fill it exclusively. If damage was the only thing then why aren’t Necros accepted more. They deal damage using the dps build. But Necros have like kitten for support or control that is useful for PvE.

I find it strange that you are suggesting an increase viability in stats like toughness and vitality yet you want things more challenging. This seems like the opposite. Tanks don’t make dungeons challenging. Passive gameplay isn’t challenging. What makes something challenging is how the bosses are themselves. And on top of that forcing you to use active defenses correctly to succeed.

GW2 doesn’t have hero mode. By that I mean it will never be the case where someone will feel like they are the sole reason why the group managed to proceed in a dungeon. The design focuses around groups rather than individuals. If you need to feel appreciated then something is wrong or you are playing the wrong game. For Guardians a well placed aegis is amazing but you won’t see the appreciation because everyone also brings some support, cc, defense, and offense. In other games a tank brings solely tanking abilities and a healer healing abilities so if you clutch heal people know it only comes from one person. I don’t see how you need to feel appreciated to play well. You should play well for the sake of playing well unless losing or not doing your best unless someone notices it is your strategy.

As for damage go look at the guardian build (obal). Tell me how if you look at traits, utilities, gear, and weapon skills that it is completely 100% dps only with 0 support, defense, or cc.

Harper.4173:

Nerelith.7360:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Nerelith.7360:

When I heard about this game, the idea was “Control, Support, and damage” you could decide which one you wanted to focus.

Whoever first stated that the GW2 Trinity would be damage, control and support did a disservice to the game. Calling it a trinity evoked the old trinity, which has dedicated and static roles. This created the impression that “focusing” on being a healer or controller was going to be a dedicated, static “thing” as part of the optimum strategy for group play.

Even in PvP/WvW, where control is used a lot, it’s not a dedicated role. Nor is healing others a dedicated role, unless I’m much mistaken. Instead, if there is a PvP trinity, it’s Conditions, Glass, and Bunker, with further specialization depending on profession and what you’re doing at any given time.

You ignored the quote you used. " you could decide which one you wanted to focus on."

People say that changing Mob AI would make things harder than they are now, and maybe it might also make the trip to level 80 last longer.

Good. That is what a good game needs, challenge, and longevity. A week to hit level 80, is not good game design.

Honestly, it should take 3 to 6 months of solid consistent game play to hit level cap in my opinion. Then the Crafting would also have value. Crafting is not a major part of the economy because people zip through levels so fast that it doesn’t make sense to do anything other than play the TP, or Buy gems.

A lot of players seem to want the game to be an easy ride from 1-80… and then " the game starts at 80." The problem here is… This type of mentality resists challenge, avoids the need for patience, and dedication. It’s giving in to the cry of youth…" I want it all, I want it all, I want it all…and I want it now."

Sometimes good things are worth waiting for, and that which takes Longer is more appreciated. If the climb to Everest were simple as getting on an elevator… it would be less appreciated.

I think the nerf was an easy out, that ultimately will not work. I think the whole Mob and Boss AI, Mob combat, needs to be re-envisioned. And if it takes Longer to hit level 80… ultimately that is a good thing… even if players scream.

The Guild Wars franchise was never about hitting the level cap after a long period of time or with a lot of hardship.

This was one of the main concerns people hand when it was announced that the level cap would be 80 ( as opposed to the GW1 cap of 20). People don’t want to take forever leveling up.

I’ve never come across a player in game saying " man I wish it’d take me longer to level up" or " I wish I didn’t hit 80 so soon".

The real game does start at level 80 because at that point you can stop improving your character power-wise and start working towards improving his look ( game’s intended horizontal progression) and towards improving yourself as a player ( game’s intended dodge-based organic combat system).

I remember the devs saying “The game begins at level 1.” If the true game doesn’t begin til level 80, and if the travel from 1-79 is just an Inconvenience to be assailed and vanquished ASAP, then “The game does not begin at level 1.”.

If they really want people to stop playing full zerker, I can see two options:

1. Massively reduce the effectiveness of dodges. It would have to be rendered down to something like how dodging works in ESO (consumes a lot of stamina) or like it is in TSW (a 10 second CD or so), so it becomes more of a panic button than a standard form of migitation.

This would require them to pretty much completely re-stat and even redesign every fight in the game.

2. Give a method of DPSing which requires or favors having other stats. An example could be like how blood magic in TSW works, it has probably the highest DPS in the game, but will constantly drain your HP.

But that’s going to be very very difficult to balance, and make sure people can’t just pull it off with zerker stats anyways.

In other words, full-zerker is probably here to stay for at least most of the current content. New stuff, they might be able to. Cliffside favors soldier/sentinel instead of zerker for most of the run because of how the fractal works, so it can happen.

Harper.4173:

Guild Wars 2 has support.

You have to realize though that support in GW2 isn’t what players came here imagining it’d be. It’s not being a healbot in tanky gear.

Support in GW2 means :

-Buffing your allies’ damage output using boons or banners or whatnot.
-Buffing your allies’ dodge capability by granting vigor.
-Helping your allies survive more by using water fields and blast finishers.
-Using reflects to keep your team alive.
-Using ports to keep your team going and skip problematic areas.
-Using stealth to avoid the avoidable fight.
-Using protection to keep your party up.
-Using blind to avoid a boss’ heavy attack.

That’s what support is. It’s all these little things that people seem not to notice but that really do make a difference.

When you think about it, that’s an awful lot of contribution by each player in a group. How many of those things happen regularly in a dungeon in other modern MMO’s, dating as far back as Warcraft? Very little.

• Most buffs are usually applied once an hour or half hour
• Long CD burst buffs get used only for specific fights and only require timing, not timing and positioning
• Long CD CC skills get used rarely, and only on trash, as they never work on bosses anyway

Wethospu.6437:

Honestly you can get pretty ridiculous passive defense if your groups specs for it. Perfectly viable for anything. Problem is that it will be slow but I have yet to see any reasonable ideas to fix that.

Buff retal in pve?

the only thing that will fix zerker, if you like to call it that, is an adjustment of DR (which anet is quite fond of everywhere else in the game). The zerker stats give an incredible return of investment and synergize extremely well with each other. Take a look at the healing stat for example which scales so bad it is not worth investing a single point. Reevaluation of all stat scaling, reducing monster HP, done. But I guess they fear the backlash quite a bit.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Can you tank Lupi and win with 5 Cleric Guardians?

http://youtu.be/b2VhmwLwvrM

Nick.6972:

Reduce boss monster HP.
Increase boss monster DMG and Attack rate.
Increase Healing Power and CC.
Update boss monster AI.

Monsters hit harder and more often – toughness and heals more viable.

Example – full Zerk, 2 hits, you’re dead, 10 hits to kill monster.
Full PTV, 10 hits you’re dead, 20 hits to kill monster.

Just an idea. Not going to happen must keep it simple and casual.

You mean buff something that allows you to solo legendary bosses while sipping a c’ocktail?

http://youtu.be/vNMltxyvAvo

Not strong enough, huh?

haviz.1340:

Nick.6972:

Reduce boss monster HP.
Increase boss monster DMG and Attack rate.
Increase Healing Power and CC.
Update boss monster AI.

Monsters hit harder and more often – toughness and heals more viable.

Example – full Zerk, 2 hits, you’re dead, 10 hits to kill monster.
Full PTV, 10 hits you’re dead, 20 hits to kill monster.

Just an idea. Not going to happen must keep it simple and casual.

You mean buff something that allows you to solo legendary bosses while sipping a c’ocktail?

http://youtu.be/vNMltxyvAvo

Not strong enough, huh?

Hey I already posted that vid!

Actually I think when people ask for buffs to defensive gear / healing gear, is because

1) They have no idea how the game works and forget that boons/ healing /blinds /aegis don’t depend on gear at all (ok healing is a tiny bit)
2) Want to keep that kind of gear as survivable as it is now (god mode) but also kill mobs / finish dungeons as fast as zerkers.

maddoctor.2738:

Hey I already posted that vid!

Actually I think when people ask for buffs to defensive gear / healing gear, is because

1) They have no idea how the game works and forget that boons/ healing /blinds /aegis don’t depend on gear at all (ok healing is a tiny bit)
2) Want to keep that kind of gear as survivable as it is now (god mode) but also kill mobs / finish dungeons as fast as zerkers.

When I’m really bored I retrait to something more defensive like 0/0/2/6/6 ele and go fractals with the guild. The amount of defense this one spec gives to an entire party is mind-boggling. Mossman at scale 40 hits for 2k instead of 12k because of protection (elemental shielding+powerful aura+elemental attunement), weakness (glyph of elemental power+lightning touch+skale venom) and frost aura. That actually makes 2k heals you get from evasive arcana and swapping to water more than viable. But according to our community, it’s not enough.

You know you can get 1.1k heals from autoattack in water with staff as an ele? That’s extremely high number and should not be buffed.

cranked.3812:

Star Ace.5207:

If you ask me, do play how you want, but do not join-or belittle-those who don’t wish you to play how you want. Same goes for the other guys-play your speedclear runs, but don’t be mad at people or call them “bads” for choosing to play whatever they like-it’s their gaming experience, not yours, so just don’t play with them (no need for silly epithets like “playhowyouwants”, etc.)

People get called bads and playhowyouwants because they constantly join zerk groups without zerk gear and try to alter the gaming experiences of others who want to do full zerk runs (yes, that is a generalization, but it’s often true). This is the biggest problem with the game and NOT the zerk meta. These threads or threads like it pop up all the time because people don’t group up with people with the same mindset. People don’t read lfg descriptions and end up in parties that they don’t fit the requirements. My solution to the zerk “problem”: improve reading comprehension and group with like minded individuals. It’s really that SIMPLE.

Other people have said it many times in this thread (especially Bread), but all classes/gear have the ability to control, support and damage. Most people just don’t understand how to use it and/or when to use it so they claim we don’t have it. Control maybe not as much because of the poorly implemented and lazyily designed mechanic that is Defiant, but control is still there if used properly.

This game has it’s obvious flaws and balance issues, but it always seems to me that people who complain about zerkers or wanting their builds to be more viable is they just want to be accepted into any run at any time. Instead of worrying about “being more viable”, when all builds are viable in PVE already, you should spend more time finding people who run the same builds and want to play how you want to play. I suppose that would require work on your end, but why do that when you can beg Anet to change the game to fit your ideals of how it should be?

That is all good, but is no excuse to insult others given that a)speedrun players are playing how THEY want (hypocrisy) and b)some perhaps “pseudo” speedrun players actually take for granted that all Dungeon runs “must” be speedruns, and also do not read the LFG ads and join non-speedrun groups to later belittle other players in the group and complain. Some people feel “superior” by sharing the mentality of the speedclear meta, without necessarily meeting the skill level, and they feel it justifies insulting other players as “bads” (clearly, they are just bullies/jerks/insecure).

Why I feel it’s bad for the game to keep fostering the idea that Berserker’s is the one and only “ideal gear” for PvE is simply because it fosters the attitude of “enlightened players” (those who play GW2 “right”) vs “the bads” (people that don’t necessarily embrace all aspects of meta play for whatever reason-and often, it isn’t just “lack of skill”.) By having one “right” way to play, you are also saying the others are wrong by not playing how you want, and many people do believe that other players are actually “bad” just because they refuse to use whatever would be considered the most optimal gear at the time. Thus, while it’s OK that Berserker’s remains the most powerful direct damage gear, it isn’t good that all other choices are so trounced upon in comparison (which is never to say that Cleric’s should be as powerful as Berserker’s, which is a preposterous idea but one that I have heard before used as a bad strawman argument-“so you are saying that Cleric’s should clear a Dungeon as fast as a Berserker’s!”… no one ever said that.) Edited to add… such argument was just stated after my post.

Yes, Cleric’s/Soldier’s/Rabid’s/etc. are effective in what they do, but in the end, they are not that much highly desirable even for players that love and still use the gear. I use all sorts of gear on my characters, from Berserker’s to Dire (before I am belittled, I know how to dodge, thank you very much) and see the advantages and cons of each-ultimately direct damage is so favored in the game that one uses non-“zerk” gear despite its cons because of its limited advantages (or perhaps for RP reasons), not because we know that it’s the “best” gear for that character.

haviz.1340:

maddoctor.2738:

Hey I already posted that vid!

Actually I think when people ask for buffs to defensive gear / healing gear, is because

1) They have no idea how the game works and forget that boons/ healing /blinds /aegis don’t depend on gear at all (ok healing is a tiny bit)
2) Want to keep that kind of gear as survivable as it is now (god mode) but also kill mobs / finish dungeons as fast as zerkers.

When I’m really bored I retrait to something more defensive like 0/0/2/6/6 ele and go fractals with the guild. The amount of defense this one spec gives to an entire party is mind-boggling. Mossman at scale 40 hits for 2k instead of 12k because of protection (elemental shielding+powerful aura+elemental attunement), weakness (glyph of elemental power+lightning touch+skale venom) and frost aura. That actually makes 2k heals you get from evasive arcana and swapping to water more than viable. But according to our community, it’s not enough.

You know you can get 1.1k heals from autoattack in water with staff as an ele? That’s extremely high number and should not be buffed.

I can only assume people want it to clear dungeons as fast as zerker

Nerfing Zerker won’t solve the problem. What the developers should do is to make support more attractive in groups. Basicly, if you got a supporter in your group, you’ll do more damage. And if you would have another type of supporter, then you will take less health damage etc.
That is one of the reasons why Mesmers felt some hope when Power Block (10 sec CD on interrupt trait) was bugged so it could go trough defiance. They suddenly had an active CC role that would be very attractive in dungeons.

That is was players want. Not nerfs on the most popular playstyle.

The real problem is trying to eliminate the ‘trinity’. In my opinion, I think they would do better with not trying to necessarily eliminate class roles that, for years, people enjoy (healer, tank, dps) but instead make it so each class is capable of playing all three roles uniquely.

This would have the same desired effect of not being stuck waiting for one class to join your party to do a dungeon or more difficult content. It also opens the door to players being more dependent on each other for accomplishing larger goals (which was, I thought, supposed to be the original idea here…) It would be even easier to do now with the potential to swap traits on the fly to fill an otherwise absent role in a party.

Until we have that, they will always have to balance the game with the idea that there is no trinity, no dedicated support/healer/etc… With no tank, and no healer, then there is no point in class roles. Without class roles it becomes a dps race because the game is balanced for simple “Kill it before it kills you and avoid attacks that don’t do enough to need anyone else to support you because each class needs to be designed to stand on its own.”

CptAurellian.9537:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Can you tank Lupi and win with 5 Cleric Guardians?

I’m too lazy to search for rT’s No-Dodge-Arah2 run right now. So the answer is yes.

I think this full cleric run is better example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qc-h49HeqU

But here is the no dodge vid too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

edit:
To be more constructive.
People who are likeminded with OP are unable to learn the game mechanics of GW2 and role playing game designers. But due to their lack of knowledge, they can’t come up with proper feedback nor ideas, just nerfing a particular build and gear type, namely zerker, for the sake of nerf and stating furiously that the game lacks diversity and other viable options, meanwhile numerous forum users posts video evidence about facetanking the hardest dungeon in defensive gear with a proper setup.
And here we go again. People can’t come up with a good build even in “their style” aka. facetanking de la WoW and start blaming others, using a well accepted option.
Only one question remained.
Why?

Aniltiger.9186:

Nerfing Zerker won’t solve the problem. What the developers should do is to make support more attractive in groups. Basicly, if you got a supporter in your group, you’ll do more damage. And if you would have another type of supporter, then you will take less health damage etc.
That is one of the reasons why Mesmers felt some hope when Power Block (10 sec CD on interrupt trait) was bugged so it could go trough defiance. They suddenly had an active CC role that would be very attractive in dungeons.

That is was players want. Not nerfs on the most popular playstyle.

So eles/engineers don’t stack might?

haviz.1340:

So eles/engineers don’t stack might?

Of course they do, but what i’m trying to say is that there isn’t enough build diversity and demand on supporters.
Ever seen a group that specificly ask for a supporter? If you have, then it must be rare.
It is because most players feel that a fully dps geared and traited players is more beneficial in a group.

Aniltiger.9186:

Of course they do, but what i’m trying to say is that there isn’t enough build diversity and demand on supporters.
Ever seen a group that specificly ask for a supporter? If you have, then it must be rare.
It is because most players feel that a fully dps geared and traited players is more beneficial in a group.

I have seen, multiple times. Even more often than zekers.