There’s been any number of discussion out there that either the game is too easy and takes no skill, or that something isn’t really challenging and requiring of skill, but just frustrating.
So pray tell., since I haven’t played any other MMO, tell me what “skill” is, and what ideal challenges would be.
For many players in other MMOs, the word “Skill” is synonymous with “Gear”. The raiders are “skilled”, everyone else isn’t. The hardcore PvPers wearing the top end PvP gear are “skilled”, the “noobs” wearing greens (regardless of the player behind the wheel) are not.
In FPS games and other games were everyone is of a base stat plateau, skill literally means 1 player’s ability to win against opponents/survive the game world.
In this game it’s a bit of both. For me, at least, when I whine about something not requiring skill I mean that I could do it with minimal thought and effort on my part as a player. My character, wearing all exotic gear and being level 80, can complete the task with me watching Dr. Who on the side monitor and only mildly paying attention to the game in my peripheral vision.
To date, with the exception of a few jumping puzzles, that pretty has described 99% of my GW2 PVE experience :-P
The closest to a high skill PvE battle I’ve had in this game was on the heart of the mist island. Go to where the various class sparring partner NPCs are. On the right side are 2 kind of close together- the warrior and the thief. Aggro both of them together and try to win. Be honest about it- don’t get the warrior to half health and THEN aggro the thief. 1 autohit on the warrior, then run to the thief (or the other way around). Dont fight back until both are fighting you.
THAT is a skill based PvE fight, IMO. It took me several tries before I could regularly beat that duo.
(edited by Tolmos.8395)
For many players in other MMOs, the word “Skill” is synonymous with “Gear”. The raiders are “skilled”, everyone else isn’t. The hardcore PvPers wearing the top end PvP gear are “skilled”, the “noobs” wearing greens (regardless of the player behind the wheel) are not.
In FPS games and other games were everyone is of a base stat plateau, skill literally means 1 player’s ability to win against opponents/survive the game world.
In this game it’s a bit of both. For me, at least, when I whine about something not requiring skill I mean that I could do it with minimal thought and effort on my part as a player. My character, wearing all exotic gear and being level 80, can complete the task with me watching Dr. Who on the side monitor and only mildly paying attention to the game in my peripheral vision.
To date, with the exception of a few jumping puzzles, that pretty has described 99% of my GW2 PVE experience :-P
Another Dr. Who fan!!! YAY!!
It takes skills to recognize great TV.
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment. This one just doesn’t suck as much time out of you as some others. I’m looking at you FFXI.
If you want truly skill based content, MOBAs and FPS’s are about as close as it gets for video games.
With regards to Guild Wars 2, skill is a combination of reflexes/reaction time, hand-eye-coordination/muscle memory, situational awareness, and knowledge. Skill has nothing at all to do with gear.
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment. This one just doesn’t suck as much time out of you as some others. I’m looking at you FFXI.
So completion of the Mad King’s Tower jumping puzzle didn’t require skill? In FFXI when me and my static cleared CoP 6-4 (pre-nerf) it had nothing to do with skill? You’re wrong. Not “I subjectively disagree with your opinion” wrong, but “factually and objectionably” wrong.
(edited by darkace.8925)
“skill” is what 90% of gw2 players that still play don’t have.
With regards to Guild Wars 2, skill is a combination of reflexes/reaction time, hand-eye-coordination/muscle memory, situational awareness, and knowledge. Skill has nothing at all to do with gear.
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment. This one just doesn’t suck as much time out of you as some others. I’m looking at you FFXI.
So completion of the Mad King’s Tower jumping puzzle didn’t require skill? In FFXI when me and my static cleared CoP 6-4 (pre-nerf) it had nothing to do with skill? You’re wrong. Not “I subjectively disagree with your opinion” wrong, but “factually and objectionably” wrong.
I’m sorry I disagree with your opinion. MMO’s are definitely a time invested = reward more than any other genre. Here have a cookie of your choice.
Skill to me depends on the game you are playing as well as what activity you are doing within that game. I guess I could say the more you know and practice the mechanics of a fight, event, or activity (such as crafting) the more skill you have.
As far as challenging goes, I feel that simply making a boss take more hits just makes an encounter bland to me. There’s a great sense of satisfaction in being able to dodge big attacks and take advantage of the recovery time for the boss afterwards. Maybe ANet could make attacks have LESS of a telegraph the closer the boss is to death. Kind of like speeding up the boss’s big attacks. They’d have to get rid of one-shots though. That would make it a fun challenge for me.
My 2 cents on “skill”:
Some games require a deeper understanding of combat mechanics & ability synergy. These games require more knowledge, but not necessarily skill. Once the theorycrafters crunch the numbers and find the optimal sweet spot, everyone is onto it and there goes the need for a deeper understanding.
Combat mechanics can be discussed and bosses analyzed so that a player can win on the first attempt simply by reading and studying what others have observed & written.
Skill however, is something that can’t be read or studied, so much as perfected. I may have a complete understanding of the Engineer (skills, traits, synergies, weaknesses, etc) and still get completely rolled by a player with more skill. Anyone can stand at 1200 range and spam grenades for high damage. But to effectively pull off the 100 ’nades burst required movement, aoe targeting, quick reflexes, intuitive reaction, situation analysis, etc. The difference between a high level PvPer and a low level one is all skill. Same build, same understanding, but the one who can more effectively execute the mechanics and react quicker and size up a situation on the fly is the more skillful player.
/My opinion
“skill” is what 90% of gw2 players that still play don’t have.
So tell us, what SHOULD they have to be considered skillful? Add to the conversation.
There’s been any number of discussion out there that either the game is too easy and takes no skill, or that something isn’t really challenging and requiring of skill, but just frustrating.
So pray tell., since I haven’t played any other MMO, tell me what “skill” is, and what ideal challenges would be.
Skill is exists of: knowledge + reaction time + how good can you execute something.
A no skill game means that the game is too easy, this can be like: it doesn’t require any knowledge to complete (GW2 4 example) or where games are so easy it doesn’t matter if you have no reaction time or fail your executions. (GW2 also, but less than knowlegde).
A good example of skill is GW1. Take speedclears for example.
- U need alot of knowledge, you need to know where you go, what can kill you, what not to trigger, else your party will wipe or atleast you’ll die yourself which is really annoying for the speedclear.
- U need reaction times, Your spells can be interrupted by enemies, if your main survival skill gets interrupted, you die. You have to make sure you move in the right directions or use counter-interrupting skills at the right moments. Every second is important here.
- All in all, you can fail in many ways if you make a mistake. So this is where my last point comes in, the ability to not make mistakes.
These 3 points make a game SKILLED and fun, because it feels great when you accomplished something others might fail on. Like killing a huge spider for your scared girlfriend.
EDIT: I’m talking about PVE only. I don’t play PVP in GW2.
(edited by CoRtex.2157)
one indicator of skill is if you win a lot vs good teams.
For many players in other MMOs, the word “Skill” is synonymous with “Gear”. The raiders are “skilled”, everyone else isn’t. The hardcore PvPers wearing the top end PvP gear are “skilled”, the “noobs” wearing greens (regardless of the player behind the wheel) are not.
In FPS games and other games were everyone is of a base stat plateau, skill literally means 1 player’s ability to win against opponents/survive the game world.
In this game it’s a bit of both. For me, at least, when I whine about something not requiring skill I mean that I could do it with minimal thought and effort on my part as a player. My character, wearing all exotic gear and being level 80, can complete the task with me watching Dr. Who on the side monitor and only mildly paying attention to the game in my peripheral vision.
To date, with the exception of a few jumping puzzles, that pretty has described 99% of my GW2 PVE experience :-P
The closest to a high skill PvE battle I’ve had in this game was on the heart of the mist island. Go to where the various class sparring partner NPCs are. On the right side are 2 kind of close together- the warrior and the thief. Aggro both of them together and try to win. Be honest about it- don’t get the warrior to half health and THEN aggro the thief. 1 autohit on the warrior, then run to the thief (or the other way around). Dont fight back until both are fighting you.
THAT is a skill based PvE fight, IMO. It took me several tries before I could regularly beat that duo.
As a former “hardcore” raider, you are way off base with this assumption.
There’s been any number of discussion out there that either the game is too easy and takes no skill, or that something isn’t really challenging and requiring of skill, but just frustrating.
So pray tell., since I haven’t played any other MMO, tell me what “skill” is, and what ideal challenges would be.
skill is determined by situational awareness and timing.
Knowing when to use the right skill at the right time.
This was true in WoW and it’s true in GW2, also.
Ah, skill. Tough to define.
The economist in me tends to try to measure it in terms of decision making. Here, I use the term decision very loosely: any action you take in game—even inaction—is a decision. When I talk about positions, I am talking about the exact circumstance at that point in time: skill cooldowns, relative positions of friendly or foe players, NPCs, etc. and environmental circumstances.
Now “skill” for me boils down to making the best (or optimal) moves in a given position for any position a player finds him/herself in. Often this might come with a short-term sacrifice for later-term gain or counterplay.
“In chess, there are only three kinds of moves: a good move, a bad move, and the best move.”
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment.
Just because a game/genre rewards time investment does not mean that it can’t also reward skill.
Also, just because a game is easy for you does not mean that it doesn’t take skill. I’ve played with a lot of people who struggle to do things that others do easily. Ironically though, half the time people say that the game takes no skill it’s actually a reflection of their own lack of understanding/skill (eg “That Thief just killed me in two shots! Thief takes no skill!”).
Any time you do something better with practice, you’re exhibiting skill at doing that activity. I would label reaction speed and probably even the ability to focus on multiple things at once (avoid “tunneling”) as talents. Those attributes can improve with practice, but it’s more akin to lifting weights to improve strength (talent) than practicing your free throw shooting (skill).
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment.
Just because a game/genre rewards time investment does not mean that it can’t also reward skill.
Also, just because a game is easy for you does not mean that it doesn’t take skill. I’ve played with a lot of people who struggle to do things that others do easily. Ironically though, half the time people say that the game takes no skill it’s actually a reflection of their own lack of understanding/skill (eg “That Thief just killed me in two shots! Thief takes no skill!”).
Any time you do something better with practice, you’re exhibiting skill at doing that activity. I would label reaction speed and probably even the ability to focus on multiple things at once (avoid “tunneling”) as talents. Those attributes can improve with practice, but it’s more akin to lifting weights to improve strength (talent) than practicing your free throw shooting (skill).
I guess I can see what you are talking about. I still think repeating something over and over until you learn it, whether it’s a JP or a dungeon, takes no skill, because all you are doing is memorizing something. Skill to me is something that can be proved on the fly, not something like “oh hey I did this JP in 2 hours and only fell 14 times!”. That’s just learned behavior, a time investment.
GW2 has 2 major skill types: Reaction and Strategy.
Reaction is the ability to perform the best possible action in response to a change of events, with the correct timing. In GW2 this means things like dodging, healing and ccing at the right time, changing targets as the situation demands, etc.
Strategy is the ability to choose the appropriate gear, traits, skills etc. to prepare for an encounter, and learning the encounter’s mechanics. It’s the kind of skill that’s used before the fight even starts. Very often it’s done for you (read a guide on builds or a dungeon) or it’s unnecessary, so Reaction is more important overall.
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment. This one just doesn’t suck as much time out of you as some others. I’m looking at you FFXI.
If you want truly skill based content, MOBAs and FPS’s are about as close as it gets for video games.
This is not true. FPS’s and MOBAs doesn’t have to be more skill based. You just need some knowledge about the game and a good aim to be successful in an FPS game. Not really that many skill factors.
In MOBA you need to have great teamwork, that’s pretty much all it takes. You obviously have to be a good player also. But you don’t exactly need to be extremely skilled.
Mastering a MOBA doesn’t have to be much more difficult than to master GW2.
I’m referring to pvp/wvw in gw2 obviously and not pve, as you compared it with two other pvp genres.
Edit: What you say might be true in some games, where gear or other items give you an unfair advantage.
(edited by Pukknub.7368)
Skill in gw2 is really just having a good understanding of each class specially the one you play knowing how to react in every situation with ur class skills know how to build your class propperly to your playstyle.
With the Arena introduction now we can have more 1v1 where you can determin somewhat ur pvp skills on the PVE note meh… all PVE content is so easy in here
Skill, to me, is mostly this:
Time invested + ability to learn + ability to coordinate with others.
Most things in GW2 are a culmination of these things together, be it tPvP, Dungeons, or WvW. The only thing holding someone back is their ability to learn and (for PvE) time invested.
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment.
Just because a game/genre rewards time investment does not mean that it can’t also reward skill.
Also, just because a game is easy for you does not mean that it doesn’t take skill. I’ve played with a lot of people who struggle to do things that others do easily. Ironically though, half the time people say that the game takes no skill it’s actually a reflection of their own lack of understanding/skill (eg “That Thief just killed me in two shots! Thief takes no skill!”).
Any time you do something better with practice, you’re exhibiting skill at doing that activity. I would label reaction speed and probably even the ability to focus on multiple things at once (avoid “tunneling”) as talents. Those attributes can improve with practice, but it’s more akin to lifting weights to improve strength (talent) than practicing your free throw shooting (skill).
I guess I can see what you are talking about. I still think repeating something over and over until you learn it, whether it’s a JP or a dungeon, takes no skill, because all you are doing is memorizing something. Skill to me is something that can be proved on the fly, not something like “oh hey I did this JP in 2 hours and only fell 14 times!”. That’s just learned behavior, a time investment.
So, you equate skill more with reacting to the unexpected and succeeding? PvE in MMO’s is subject to a practice effect because the content is predictable. While PvE can present relative levels of difficulty (or lack thereof), it’s possible to anticipate what you need to do. MMO PvP might require skill because it’s less possible to predict what a player will do.
Where talk about skill gets muddy is trying to differentiate skill from talent. Some peoples’ twitch reactions will never be as good as some others’. That’s talent. Those with bad twitch reactions can improve them within the range of what’s possible for them. That’s skill.
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment.
Just because a game/genre rewards time investment does not mean that it can’t also reward skill.
Also, just because a game is easy for you does not mean that it doesn’t take skill. I’ve played with a lot of people who struggle to do things that others do easily. Ironically though, half the time people say that the game takes no skill it’s actually a reflection of their own lack of understanding/skill (eg “That Thief just killed me in two shots! Thief takes no skill!”).
Any time you do something better with practice, you’re exhibiting skill at doing that activity. I would label reaction speed and probably even the ability to focus on multiple things at once (avoid “tunneling”) as talents. Those attributes can improve with practice, but it’s more akin to lifting weights to improve strength (talent) than practicing your free throw shooting (skill).
I guess I can see what you are talking about. I still think repeating something over and over until you learn it, whether it’s a JP or a dungeon, takes no skill, because all you are doing is memorizing something. Skill to me is something that can be proved on the fly, not something like “oh hey I did this JP in 2 hours and only fell 14 times!”. That’s just learned behavior, a time investment.
So, you equate skill more with reacting to the unexpected and succeeding? PvE in MMO’s is subject to a practice effect because the content is predictable. While PvE can present relative levels of difficulty (or lack thereof), it’s possible to anticipate what you need to do. MMO PvP might require skill because it’s less possible to predict what a player will do.
Where talk about skill gets muddy is trying to differentiate skill from talent. Some peoples’ twitch reactions will never be as good as some others’. That’s talent. Those with bad twitch reactions can improve them within the range of what’s possible for them. That’s skill.
That’s the best explanation I have seen yet in this thread. Someone give this man cookies. Well said.
For many players in other MMOs, the word “Skill” is synonymous with “Gear”. The raiders are “skilled”, everyone else isn’t. The hardcore PvPers wearing the top end PvP gear are “skilled”, the “noobs” wearing greens (regardless of the player behind the wheel) are not.
In FPS games and other games were everyone is of a base stat plateau, skill literally means 1 player’s ability to win against opponents/survive the game world.
In this game it’s a bit of both. For me, at least, when I whine about something not requiring skill I mean that I could do it with minimal thought and effort on my part as a player. My character, wearing all exotic gear and being level 80, can complete the task with me watching Dr. Who on the side monitor and only mildly paying attention to the game in my peripheral vision.
To date, with the exception of a few jumping puzzles, that pretty has described 99% of my GW2 PVE experience :-P
The closest to a high skill PvE battle I’ve had in this game was on the heart of the mist island. Go to where the various class sparring partner NPCs are. On the right side are 2 kind of close together- the warrior and the thief. Aggro both of them together and try to win. Be honest about it- don’t get the warrior to half health and THEN aggro the thief. 1 autohit on the warrior, then run to the thief (or the other way around). Dont fight back until both are fighting you.
THAT is a skill based PvE fight, IMO. It took me several tries before I could regularly beat that duo.
As a former “hardcore” raider, you are way off base with this assumption.
As I am also a former hardcore raider from both WoW and Rift, I stand by my statement.
For many players in other MMOs, the word “Skill” is synonymous with “Gear”. The raiders are “skilled”, everyone else isn’t. The hardcore PvPers wearing the top end PvP gear are “skilled”, the “noobs” wearing greens (regardless of the player behind the wheel) are not.
In FPS games and other games were everyone is of a base stat plateau, skill literally means 1 player’s ability to win against opponents/survive the game world.
In this game it’s a bit of both. For me, at least, when I whine about something not requiring skill I mean that I could do it with minimal thought and effort on my part as a player. My character, wearing all exotic gear and being level 80, can complete the task with me watching Dr. Who on the side monitor and only mildly paying attention to the game in my peripheral vision.
To date, with the exception of a few jumping puzzles, that pretty has described 99% of my GW2 PVE experience :-P
The closest to a high skill PvE battle I’ve had in this game was on the heart of the mist island. Go to where the various class sparring partner NPCs are. On the right side are 2 kind of close together- the warrior and the thief. Aggro both of them together and try to win. Be honest about it- don’t get the warrior to half health and THEN aggro the thief. 1 autohit on the warrior, then run to the thief (or the other way around). Dont fight back until both are fighting you.
THAT is a skill based PvE fight, IMO. It took me several tries before I could regularly beat that duo.
As a former “hardcore” raider, you are way off base with this assumption.
As I am also a former hardcore raider from both WoW and Rift, I stand by my statement.
So your guilds didn’t evaluate the skill of players who were applying? I’ve not raided in those games, but in the games I did play, we always evaluated apps for skill (in addition to attitude, reliability, ect). Gear was never rarely a factor because it was easily worth our time to get them upgrades if they were skilled, reliable, and fit in well.
There’s been any number of discussion out there that either the game is too easy and takes no skill, or that something isn’t really challenging and requiring of skill, but just frustrating.
So pray tell., since I haven’t played any other MMO, tell me what “skill” is, and what ideal challenges would be.
skill is determined by situational awareness and timing.
Knowing when to use the right skill at the right time.
This was true in WoW and it’s true in GW2, also.
Exactly.
And gear is a reward of skill.
Gear allows you to progress to the next ‘challenge’ where you have to use SKILL again.
This is why I’ve said in another forum that original Vanilla WoW was challenging in many parts…especially the 45 min baron run. There were raiders in raiding gear that couldn’t complete it. My small guild beat it with us in the normal dungeon gear. And our reward was the better looking gear that most didn’t have.
in regards to Skill in GW2…there isn’t much at all. Honestly the combat in GW2 is mind-numbly boring.
When you can just sit back and spam 1 and kill things, it’s not skill and like the poster said above…99% of this game is that.
I got so bored with this I stopped playing for a bit.
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment.
Just because a game/genre rewards time investment does not mean that it can’t also reward skill.
Also, just because a game is easy for you does not mean that it doesn’t take skill. I’ve played with a lot of people who struggle to do things that others do easily. Ironically though, half the time people say that the game takes no skill it’s actually a reflection of their own lack of understanding/skill (eg “That Thief just killed me in two shots! Thief takes no skill!”).
Any time you do something better with practice, you’re exhibiting skill at doing that activity. I would label reaction speed and probably even the ability to focus on multiple things at once (avoid “tunneling”) as talents. Those attributes can improve with practice, but it’s more akin to lifting weights to improve strength (talent) than practicing your free throw shooting (skill).
I guess I can see what you are talking about. I still think repeating something over and over until you learn it, whether it’s a JP or a dungeon, takes no skill, because all you are doing is memorizing something. Skill to me is something that can be proved on the fly, not something like “oh hey I did this JP in 2 hours and only fell 14 times!”. That’s just learned behavior, a time investment.
So, you equate skill more with reacting to the unexpected and succeeding? PvE in MMO’s is subject to a practice effect because the content is predictable. While PvE can present relative levels of difficulty (or lack thereof), it’s possible to anticipate what you need to do. MMO PvP might require skill because it’s less possible to predict what a player will do.
Where talk about skill gets muddy is trying to differentiate skill from talent. Some peoples’ twitch reactions will never be as good as some others’. That’s talent. Those with bad twitch reactions can improve them within the range of what’s possible for them. That’s skill.
That’s the best explanation I have seen yet in this thread. Someone give this man cookies. Well said.
Indeed. How the word talent had escaped me all this time makes me worry.
And building on that my opinion becomes that the game right now lacks the ability to build a character to compensate for talents. Meaning i can’t really shore up my reduced reaction time by putting on more armor or build for healing, as neither of those at the high end can really match the damage output of someone with high reaction talent that build for damage.
Meaning that the overall game design has confused talent (reaction time) and skill, and built everything around dodge/block/interrupt (reaction time).
Skill is irrelevant in any MMO. Every single one, including this one, is a time investment. This one just doesn’t suck as much time out of you as some others. I’m looking at you FFXI.
If you want truly skill based content, MOBAs and FPS’s are about as close as it gets for video games.
I would like to see you raid or do speedclears without any knowledge… Let’s see how many seconds it would take you to die. Read my post somewhere in this topic.
For an old guy like me skill is being able to press the ‘3’ key at the right time and then switch to ‘5’ real fast while also pressing mouse button 3. Oh and knowing when to run. I’m great at that. I’m totally hardcore and I have the blue armor to prove it! ‘Noobs’
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