Guild Wars 2

I’m beginning to wonder if ANet would have to rely on in-game micro-transactions if they could instead charge every time a forum poster debates GW2’s grind. These debates occur at least once per page, branching off as tangents or otherwise. They occur so often because they quickly lead to dead ends, and that prevents any further exploration. This isn’t all that surprising when you think about the word itself. The definition of “grind” is vague enough to allow for a variety of personal definitions, but it’s also simple enough to allow individuals to extrapolate their personal definitions onto others. It certainly doesn’t help that ANet loves to use their equally vague definition of grind as as a marketing ploy.

So, why don’t we try to establish something of a consensus on the meaning here? What’s your personal definition of a grind? How is it similar to the previous posters?

I’ll start:
For me a grind is doing anything that makes me feel as though my actions are meaningless within the context of the game. For example, after leveling my first character to 80, the second character I level becomes less meaningful and, therefore, feels more grindy.

To further extend this definition, I feel that the daily achievement is grindy not because of the length of time it takes to obtain an amulet, but because the tasks I’m provided with don’t give me a sense of accomplishment within the context of the world.

This is probably why I have such an easier time leveling an alt or doing mundange things with a friend, because it feels as though I’m helping someone as I level.

For me, grinding is that feeling I get when, while levelling or working towards a goal, I’m in some way artificially held back via systems that are either obvious or not. Horrible RNG, Calendar gating, lack of ingame systems. This then combines to cause that large lump of stone that i’m trying to carve into something I want, a huge granite blob and all i’m being offered to use while carving is a nail file. Hence, now instead of carving my goal out, I’m grinding away slowly at it, thus after a set amount of time my patience wears thin and I begin to question the point and/or design.

Having done that with this game, I decided that combining my rational conclusions that I subjectively drew along with the attitudes of those that would near attack me for drawing them and sharing them, I realized this was not the rpg I was looking for, and I now retain no faith in Anet or NCsoft as developers or publishers period.

I can handle repetition, it’s part of a game really that it may be limited, but the sheer insurmountable and bland grinding that this game offers simply takes too long and all in a game that doesn’t have the solidity to hold me to it. It’s to me, simply a sub par game that is far from living up to it’s potential.

To me it’s having to do the same things over and over again in order to progress. And I don’t mean “OMG I just did a Dynamic Event, now there’s another one?” or “I was defending an NPC in my last Personal Story”.

I mean those sections of games which will be familiar to anyone who’s ever played Pokemon or pretty much any JRPG. The part where you get to the next boss, or dungeon, or whatever and realise that in spite of having done all the side-quests you’ve come across and killed most/all the enemies along the way you’re still a few levels below what you need and the only way to get it is to walk round and round the same area fighting the same random spawns over and over. Or in an MMO camping a spawn point.

Or when you’re trying to buy or make a particular item and the only way to get the required materials is to keep killing a specific enemy until they eventually drop enough of what you need.

By this definition GW2 has stuck to the Manifesto. There is some grind in the game but it is all for optional extras. You’ll never find you’re a few levels below the next map or dungeon or whatever and your only option is to kill random spawns until you level up. If you randomly decide to switch from a sword to a rifle you don’t need to go back to a low level area and spend some time killing easy enemies to improve your rifle skill before you can use it in real combat. You’ll never be told you need gear from the last dungeon to go on to the next one.

ArenaNet defined grind during one of the AMAs as “repetitive game play that is not fun”

Going by their definition, nothing in the game is a grind unless the majority agrees.

For me, grinding is pretty much being forced to do something over and over hundreds of times, not because I want to, but because it’s the only way to continue.

I’m sorry, but I’ll have to offer something completely different. I don’t have a negative connotation of grinding in a game. In another MMO I played, if you asked what I was doing I might say that I was grinding out some leather to make a set of gear. Would you infer that I wasn’t enjoying myself because I considered what I was doing ‘grinding’? You would be wrong if you did. I am one of those people who enjoy farming. We exist. Within my own household there are people who ‘hate’ farming. Those people exist as well.

Though grinding has a generally negative connotation from its etymology and association with work, for me it simply means performing actions in a game in pursuit of a goal. If I want to craft a set of armor to sell for gold, I grind out the mats. Enjoyment is really not a factor in defining ‘grind’ for me. Take the legendary grind. You may find that parts of it you enjoy and parts of it you hate, but the whole thing is the legendary grind.

The only distinction I make around grinding is whether it is optional or non-optional. In a vertically progressing game in terms of the power level, the grind is not optional. If you want to play the game long-term you must do the grind. If you have the capacity for critical thought, a simple thought experiment should reveal that to you. With horizontal progression all grinds are optional. Around the question of optionality in grinding I do take a position. I favor optional grinds over non-optional ones.

@Healix
What kind of repetition and in what context? You’d be hard pressed to find a game that didn’t require you to do the same thing many times. Hell, Deux Ex Human Revolution repeated the same gameplay mechanics over and over again but gameplay was in no way a grind. Elder Scrolls games require you to complete repetitive tasks over and over again, with simple and repetitive gameplay mechanics and those don’t feel grindy.

And how does one define and use “fun” with medium whose diverse aesthetics are diverse as videogames. I enjoy the gameplay in survival horror, but playing them does not evoke the kinds emotions I would describe as “fun.” Am I grinding when I play them by ANet’s definition?

@Raine
That’s part of the argument as well. The term is formative given it’s age, so the connotation can become part of the definition given time. The fact that it’s given a negative connotation in GW2 is really due to ANet’s usage of it and the player’s reaction to ascended gear.

When used in the negative sense, grind used to mean doing something repetitive for a specific reward. In Aion, when it launched, if you wanted to level, you ran out of quests and you had to grind mobs to level, at least until you were high enough to PvP. People would grind the same mobs over and over again, just to level. This is the traditional definition of grinding.

You can grind faction points in games by doing the same dailies every single day, because that’s the only way to get the faction you need. The question of course, is whether you need stuff or not.

As in Aion, you needed to be a certain level to PvP. If you couldn’t get there with quests, grinding was the only answer. That was it.

If you need certain gear to get further in a game, you have to grind dungeons over and over again, waiting for an RNG drop in order to get geared high enough to get to the next raid.

By the standard definition, the only real grind in Guild Wars 2 can be found in FotM. Because if you want to go further, you need to grind that dungeon over and over. That’s been alleviated a bit by the laurals.

Dailies in Guild Wars 2 are less grindy than most people claim because most of them can be done quickly and easily and these days, you can even choose which ones you want. People call it a grind but in reality you’re not doing it long enough to make it a grind, unless you’re just not thinking about it. There are many times I get them without even trying.

People call it a grind because it takes a long time, but it doesn’t take a lot of work on your part. If the dailies take you an hour a day, which is a long time for dailies these days, then to get something it’ll take you 30 hours of play. But it’s not quite repetitive, because you can change it up. Do different things on different days. Calling it a grind is misleading because there’s variety. And you don’t have to do them because you don’t really need ascended gear anyway. None of the content is gated, except higher levels of FoTM. You can do the first ten levels without any ascended gear at all. I know because I did it myself.

Then you’ve basically experienced that content and you can decide if you want to continue. Some people do, some people don’t.

Compare this with a game like Rift, where you’re not even allowed to queue for a dungeon unless you meet certain criteria. The game won’t let you play a dungeon without certain minimum stats. Stats you need gear for, for which you have to grind. Specific stats on specific gear to get into specific dungeons or raids.

That’s my definition of grind.

This game doesn’t have nearly as much grind as some other MMO’s do. Heck the ascended pieces aren’t even that bad. Just do what you do, do some dailies that take what? 10 minutes to 30 minutes a day? just doing what your normally doing in game for the most part and you’ll eventually get them.

Stuff on the auction house isn’t all that pricy and ectos are NO WHERE near as hard to acquire in this game as they were in GW1.

The Fissure of Woe Armour or Vabbi Armour was more of a grind than 95% of anything in this game.

That’s my opinion at least.

I’m asking for the definition, not the amount you think is in the game.

For me, grinding is an instance wherein I am tasked to do the same kitten thing every time just to get the thing I wants. Good thing Guild Wars 2 gives me so many options to get what I want.

Vayne.8563:

When used in the negative sense, grind used to mean doing something repetitive for a specific reward. In Aion, when it launched, if you wanted to level, you ran out of quests and you had to grind mobs to level, at least until you were high enough to PvP. People would grind the same mobs over and over again, just to level. This is the traditional definition of grinding.

You can grind faction points in games by doing the same dailies every single day, because that’s the only way to get the faction you need. The question of course, is whether you need stuff or not.

As in Aion, you needed to be a certain level to PvP. If you couldn’t get there with quests, grinding was the only answer. That was it.

If you need certain gear to get further in a game, you have to grind dungeons over and over again, waiting for an RNG drop in order to get geared high enough to get to the next raid.

By the standard definition, the only real grind in Guild Wars 2 can be found in FotM. Because if you want to go further, you need to grind that dungeon over and over. That’s been alleviated a bit by the laurals.

Dailies in Guild Wars 2 are less grindy than most people claim because most of them can be done quickly and easily and these days, you can even choose which ones you want. People call it a grind but in reality you’re not doing it long enough to make it a grind, unless you’re just not thinking about it. There are many times I get them without even trying.

People call it a grind because it takes a long time, but it doesn’t take a lot of work on your part. If the dailies take you an hour a day, which is a long time for dailies these days, then to get something it’ll take you 30 hours of play. But it’s not quite repetitive, because you can change it up. Do different things on different days. Calling it a grind is misleading because there’s variety. And you don’t have to do them because you don’t really need ascended gear anyway. None of the content is gated, except higher levels of FoTM. You can do the first ten levels without any ascended gear at all. I know because I did it myself.

Then you’ve basically experienced that content and you can decide if you want to continue. Some people do, some people don’t.

Compare this with a game like Rift, where you’re not even allowed to queue for a dungeon unless you meet certain criteria. The game won’t let you play a dungeon without certain minimum stats. Stats you need gear for, for which you have to grind. Specific stats on specific gear to get into specific dungeons or raids.

That’s my definition of grind.

Good point. The Optional grind was what GW1 stand out from the crowd. If you wanted to work on GWAMM, or skin items, it was there for you you to do. However it was not madatory, nor did it effect your stats or ability in game.

Based on what I have seen on these forums, a grind is anything that requires effort and you can’t obtain right away.

A needed repeated action that tends to be a time filler that must be done to get to the next level of “difficultly.” The only thing in this game that close to that is fractal 20+ but even then its not a hard grind and is avoided by not rushing.

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

Would you say your experience in accumulating currency isn’t fun and therefore grindy? Or is there something else?

It’s just doing something repetitive for something you want. Noting that repetitive =/= tedious and that you actually have to have a goal in mind (Jumping in place in Mario to see how many jump make doesn’t count because you don’t have a solid goal/reward).

I think Anet is hiding the obvious grinds in this game though dailies and monthlies. Say you want to get an ascended amulet (If you don’t want to go for ascended, consider exotic from dungeons and the daily factor introduced from DR). Ignoring monthlies, and assuming each daily takes half an hour on average it’s around a 15 hour grind to get that amulet. Maybe 12 hours if we consider monthlies. But even if it’s over a month, that’s still 12-15 hours of grinding.

The only difference between GW2 grinding and normal grinding is that in GW2 the grinding is spaced out over a period of time.

This game came be enjoyed perfectly without grinding – however that doesn’t mean it’s void of it. Whether or not you are interested in the parts that require grinding (Like legendary weapons for instance) is irrelevant* . The main question is if a game has at least one part that requires grinding or not.

*If a single person doesn’t need to grind to enjoy game, that doesn’t imply that everyone doesn’t need to grind to enjoy the game.

My opinion on what “grind” means, is the point at which a repetitive action becomes boring and detracts from my fun in the game. Usually, it involves the need to do some repetitive action in order to gain some type of reward that cannot be had any other way. Typical things in GW2 that become repetitive and boring enough to be considered a grind, IMO, are: leveling, legendaries & dungeon armor.

IMO, one of the best ways to relieve a grind, is to make items available for sale on the TP – therefore, I have the option to find a fun way to make gold, and can buy what I want, regardless of HOW the actual items needs to be farmed.

For example, if I like farming Orr, I should be able to do that and buy CoF armor on the TP. Or, vice versa, if I like doing dungeons, I should be able to take the profit from dungeons and use it to buy things that are found in Orr or WvW or guild missions, etc.

Having so many things account/soul bound makes the game feel more like a grind, because we are forced to do things we don’t want to do in order to obtain gear that we want.

Every form of end game content can be considered a grind by someone, but rarely is all end game content considered a grind by everyone.

World of Warcraft

did i win ?

im serious by the way

Sometimes i enjoy the Korean Grinding better then WoWs Grind its seriously horrible

The second fun becomes work.

When I feel like I’m not being meaningfully rewarded for my time.

I don’t mind doing stuff.

I don’t even mind doing stuff over and over to get stuff.

It’s when I feel I’m putting in more effort than I feel is justified for the reward that I’m unhappy.

The worst grinds to me are when I feel like I have to schedule appointments to do stuff, like WoWs raiding. I hate having a checklist of things to do and nothing meaningful to do outside of them.

First off i point out i dislike so many stuff but i accept it and adapt (example no open world but three instance minigames inside one along others like when they used so many times the statement ‘’not working as intended ’’ summary i do have complaints iam not a fancat)

Grind is a word which was made by people who couldnt stand a game required them to do x stuff, so insteand of rage quit, and walk away, they decided to whine and invent that word, because the game must run and spin over them if not is a bad game or design (we can use this statement to practically…anything especially in this part of the world), these days they use the word grind for any action or mechanic or design they dont like and make a sea of tears about it, the worst part is when they whine about an action or mechanic or design which they arent obligated to do it but could feel obliged to do it.

While others like me, are more concerned about the game not having bugs, cheats, good management, bots, giving freedom, the company not trying to manipulate anything, etc. so we dont use the word grind, we use the word farm.

Usual reference which was the start of the word is when leveling by just killing monsters in a mmorpg. They will say ‘’iam grinding monsters’’ while i will say ‘’iam just farming xp’’

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

That the thing its not mandatory so if you do not like it you do not have to do it. That not a true grind its an self imposed grind that dose nothing for you but looks.

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

This counterargument is extremely flawed for many reasons.

He wants to play the game. Sure, logging in is “optional”, but if he wants to play the game, if he doesn’t log in at all, it defeats the entire purpose.

The issue here is that you don’t need mundane things to play the game. It’s about practicality, not justifying a want.

If the game is all about getting a legendary, sure you might have a point, but the thing is, it’s not.

Grind:

A reward system combined with a style of gameplay that is easy and repetitive. If there is no reward there is no grind. If the reward can be aquired by repeating the same task over and over again; then that is a grind.

Having to repeat the same action an excessive amount of times to attain something you want or need.

If you spend a lot of time doing something that isn’t fun to you, but you feel you need to do because of some reward, AND more time spent doing it = more of said reward in all cases, then it is a grind.

‘Fun’ is subjective but think of it this way: would you continue to do this activity if it did not give gold/xp/karma/rank/badges/whatever it is you are trying to get? If the answer is ‘no’, then it is not fun to you.

Dailies and boss chests are not a grind because you can’t continue to put more time into them and get more stuff out, once they are done for the day they stop giving rewards.

Heijincks.9267:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

This counterargument is extremely flawed for many reasons.

He wants to play the game. Sure, logging in is “optional”, but if he wants to play the game, if he doesn’t log in at all, it defeats the entire purpose.

The issue here is that you don’t need mundane things to play the game. It’s about practicality, not justifying a want.

The argument is pointing out the stupid and yet commonly tossed about answer of “Well don’t do it then” which doesn’t answer anything, doesn’t get us to any sort of a consensus on what could be done or stimulate discussion AT ALL. I may as well answer all threads which ask why x mechanic causes y result with: “cos that’s the why”

Because it’s about as helpful to a discussion as that argument. How you derive fun from a game is a subjective matter… some players are claiming that they aren’t finding this fun, and the correct answers are NOT “well don’t do it then/leave the game” those answers are asinine and INSULTING to others.

I’m guessing though that you’re of the mind that these players who have issues are “self entitled” (lol EA games coined phrase the IRONY!) and they should just be happy with what they have

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQd9FKD7fY6p9oh5QEnE45uJlG2LvHdfI_1eZj9tw628JR52NP5FA

Hellkaiser.6025:

Heijincks.9267:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

This counterargument is extremely flawed for many reasons.

He wants to play the game. Sure, logging in is “optional”, but if he wants to play the game, if he doesn’t log in at all, it defeats the entire purpose.

The issue here is that you don’t need mundane things to play the game. It’s about practicality, not justifying a want.

The argument is pointing out the stupid and yet commonly tossed about answer of “Well don’t do it then” which doesn’t answer anything, doesn’t get us to any sort of a consensus on what could be done or stimulate discussion AT ALL. I may as well answer all threads which ask why x mechanic causes y result with: “cos that’s the why”

Because it’s about as helpful to a discussion as that argument. How you derive fun from a game is a subjective matter… some players are claiming that they aren’t finding this fun, and the correct answers are NOT “well don’t do it then/leave the game” those answers are asinine and INSULTING to others.

I’m guessing though that you’re of the mind that these players who have issues are “self entitled” (lol EA games coined phrase the IRONY!) and they should just be happy with what they have

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQd9FKD7fY6p9oh5QEnE45uJlG2LvHdfI_1eZj9tw628JR52NP5FA

Its a good argument you just do not like it. If you do not like to work for something then do not work for it. Its very simple commonsense logic. Its showing the shallowness of the grind argument when you cant even counter this type of logic and you must go out of your way just to call it “bad.”

Hellkaiser.6025:

Heijincks.9267:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

This counterargument is extremely flawed for many reasons.

He wants to play the game. Sure, logging in is “optional”, but if he wants to play the game, if he doesn’t log in at all, it defeats the entire purpose.

The issue here is that you don’t need mundane things to play the game. It’s about practicality, not justifying a want.

The argument is pointing out the stupid and yet commonly tossed about answer of “Well don’t do it then” which doesn’t answer anything, doesn’t get us to any sort of a consensus on what could be done or stimulate discussion AT ALL. I may as well answer all threads which ask why x mechanic causes y result with: “cos that’s the why”

Because it’s about as helpful to a discussion as that argument. How you derive fun from a game is a subjective matter… some players are claiming that they aren’t finding this fun, and the correct answers are NOT “well don’t do it then/leave the game” those answers are asinine and INSULTING to others.

I’m guessing though that you’re of the mind that these players who have issues are “self entitled” (lol EA games coined phrase the IRONY!) and they should just be happy with what they have

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQd9FKD7fY6p9oh5QEnE45uJlG2LvHdfI_1eZj9tw628JR52NP5FA

Looks like you missed the word “practicality”.

For example, reading is practical. Eating is practical. Both are “optional”.

Let’s contrast that to playing a game.

If you want to play Guild Wars 2, logging on is practical. If you want to play Guild Wars 2 properly, being sufficiently geared is practical. Both are also “optional”.

Getting a legendary however, isn’t practical. The line gets a little fuzzier with ascended, but you can play the game 99.99% just as well without it, therefore it’s not so practical.

There’s a huge distinction. I can say spamming /dance all day is my version of “fun”. But is it practical?

No.

Let’s put this real simple. Whatever you need in the most fundamental definition of the word is practical. Whatever you want in its most fundamental definition isn’t. There’s a clear distinction between a need and a want.

TwoBit.5903:

So, why don’t we try to establish something of a consensus on the meaning here? What’s your personal definition of a grind?

Good questions. I think having a consensus on the definition of grind could possibly be very helpful, however, given the breadth of people that use it, that could be difficult – if not near impossible – to settle on one definition. And maybe we shouldn’t, who knows, time will surely tell.

I think 2 questions that could be added is:
Why do you think your definition has more weight, or encapsulates the consensual opinion?
Why should your definition be what more people should hold as the consensual opinion of the definition?

My personal definition of grind is “A repetitive motion or task that creates a wearing away.”

The act of grinding in and of itself has no negative connotation. I think a few posters have already mentioned that they happen to enjoy grinding.

The MEANING that we hold in our minds is what most people have problems with. Playing a game such as an MMO merely provides a tool with which we allow ourselves to express something already inherent in our mentality. (Now does this mean the tool is flawless? Of course not. This game can always be a work in progress.)

In the grand overarching scheme of things, one way or another, you can say that everything we do here in this game is meaningless… Except for the meaning you give to it. As soon as you find your personal meaning in this game, I think you will find your fulfillment and through that a lot more happiness with this game.

TwoBit.5903:

This is probably why I have such an easier time leveling an alt or doing mundange things with a friend, because it feels as though I’m helping someone as I level.

I think you’re hitting on something important and not realizing it. If you’re a Helpful soul, isn’t that really what’s important to you? Shouldn’t you just keep focusing on doing that? If you do, everything else becomes incidental.

How important is that amulet that you get from doing your dailies? If you have to be the Best of the Best but that means sacrificing time that you could be using to help other people, is it really that important?

Would you value your time more if you got good at running newbies through dungeons and having them realize that dungeons aren’t horrible and are actually fun and challenging?

Calae.1738:

Grind:

A reward system combined with a style of gameplay that is easy and repetitive. If there is no reward there is no grind. If the reward can be aquired by repeating the same task over and over again; then that is a grind.

I like this, except for the fact that a grind is subjective. What I find a grind, you may not.

Which is why I would add that when something repetitive becomes boring or tedious, then it becomes a grind.

In fact, the first few times I farm an area, I don’t find it to be a grind. As I continue, it becomes more of a grind.

grinding for me is doing something incredibly boring because it feels like its taking forever so i dont want to do it.

Jski.6180:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Heijincks.9267:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

This counterargument is extremely flawed for many reasons.

He wants to play the game. Sure, logging in is “optional”, but if he wants to play the game, if he doesn’t log in at all, it defeats the entire purpose.

The issue here is that you don’t need mundane things to play the game. It’s about practicality, not justifying a want.

The argument is pointing out the stupid and yet commonly tossed about answer of “Well don’t do it then” which doesn’t answer anything, doesn’t get us to any sort of a consensus on what could be done or stimulate discussion AT ALL. I may as well answer all threads which ask why x mechanic causes y result with: “cos that’s the why”

Because it’s about as helpful to a discussion as that argument. How you derive fun from a game is a subjective matter… some players are claiming that they aren’t finding this fun, and the correct answers are NOT “well don’t do it then/leave the game” those answers are asinine and INSULTING to others.

I’m guessing though that you’re of the mind that these players who have issues are “self entitled” (lol EA games coined phrase the IRONY!) and they should just be happy with what they have

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQd9FKD7fY6p9oh5QEnE45uJlG2LvHdfI_1eZj9tw628JR52NP5FA

Its a good argument you just do not like it. If you do not like to work for something then do not work for it. Its very simple commonsense logic. Its showing the shallowness of the grind argument when you cant even counter this type of logic and you must go out of your way just to call it “bad.”

I bought this game to play it, changes to said game and discrepancies between their claims in the manifesto video have in fact brought it to the point where I don’t play the game (ironically what you suggested haha) and so I and others who share the issues but haven’t left the game out of some strange sense of idealistic hope, tend to ponder why the only answer that is given by the community at large that defends the game is to “not play the game” as opposed to help encourage people towards looking at the positive aspects in the game.

Comparatively, if you’re talking about the alternative and healthy responses which breed discussion, and the cop out answer “stop playing, don’t do it etc” then honestly, there’s nothing “good” about you argument aside from you can’t argue with it because it’s so asinine. Cleverly stupid, is the term I’d use

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Heijincks.9267:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

This counterargument is extremely flawed for many reasons.

He wants to play the game. Sure, logging in is “optional”, but if he wants to play the game, if he doesn’t log in at all, it defeats the entire purpose.

The issue here is that you don’t need mundane things to play the game. It’s about practicality, not justifying a want.

The argument is pointing out the stupid and yet commonly tossed about answer of “Well don’t do it then” which doesn’t answer anything, doesn’t get us to any sort of a consensus on what could be done or stimulate discussion AT ALL. I may as well answer all threads which ask why x mechanic causes y result with: “cos that’s the why”

Because it’s about as helpful to a discussion as that argument. How you derive fun from a game is a subjective matter… some players are claiming that they aren’t finding this fun, and the correct answers are NOT “well don’t do it then/leave the game” those answers are asinine and INSULTING to others.

I’m guessing though that you’re of the mind that these players who have issues are “self entitled” (lol EA games coined phrase the IRONY!) and they should just be happy with what they have

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQd9FKD7fY6p9oh5QEnE45uJlG2LvHdfI_1eZj9tw628JR52NP5FA

Its a good argument you just do not like it. If you do not like to work for something then do not work for it. Its very simple commonsense logic. Its showing the shallowness of the grind argument when you cant even counter this type of logic and you must go out of your way just to call it “bad.”

I bought this game to play it, changes to said game and discrepancies between their claims in the manifesto video have in fact brought it to the point where I don’t play the game (ironically what you suggested haha) and so I and others who share the issues but haven’t left the game out of some strange sense of idealistic hope, tend to ponder why the only answer that is given by the community at large that defends the game is to “not play the game” as opposed to help encourage people towards looking at the positive aspects in the game.

Comparatively, if you’re talking about the alternative and healthy responses which breed discussion, and the cop out answer “stop playing, don’t do it etc” then honestly, there’s nothing “good” about you argument aside from you can’t argue with it because it’s so asinine. Cleverly stupid, is the term I’d use

How is it stupid? If you don’t like doing something, you simply don’t do it. If you don’t like the game, then don’t play it. Just because you don’t like the game does not mean everyone else shares the same sentiments as you do.

With that being said, sure, I admit that the “don’t like it don’t play it” only works to a certain degree. This brings us back to the practical issue. If the flaw is in a place where the subject at hand is practical matter (eg. bugs), then “don’t like it don’t play it” wouldn’t work. However, if it’s something that’s impractical (eg. legendary obtainment), then “don’t like it don’t play it” does work.

Also, while Anet’s manifesto is extremely sensationalist, they never actually went against it.

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Heijincks.9267:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Jski.6180:

Tsumiju.3071:

I did have a definition for grind, and thanks to GW2 I’m revising it simply because of well, everything.

I can save up my Karma from doing a variety of things to purchase armor with exotic stats, but to make it look pretty I need to either play the game for several months to get 30 gold for ONE ITEM, or run the same dungeon over and over to get the tokens.

And don’t event start me on legendaries. Bad design in my opinion.

So you need all these items?

Does he need to log in?

Does he need to be able to read?

Just about anything can be argued as “not mandatory” in some long winded and ridiculous way, but they certainly help don’t they? I mean… he might just be the kind of person who derives enjoyment from gear acquisition or progression. And without that or as it is in it’s current state, he might find that it’s not enjoyable, are you stating that your opinion of the subject is more important than his? and that you as a player are too? cos every time I see you post “don’t do it then, don’t play then etc etc”

It just reads “My preference are more important than yours”

This counterargument is extremely flawed for many reasons.

He wants to play the game. Sure, logging in is “optional”, but if he wants to play the game, if he doesn’t log in at all, it defeats the entire purpose.

The issue here is that you don’t need mundane things to play the game. It’s about practicality, not justifying a want.

The argument is pointing out the stupid and yet commonly tossed about answer of “Well don’t do it then” which doesn’t answer anything, doesn’t get us to any sort of a consensus on what could be done or stimulate discussion AT ALL. I may as well answer all threads which ask why x mechanic causes y result with: “cos that’s the why”

Because it’s about as helpful to a discussion as that argument. How you derive fun from a game is a subjective matter… some players are claiming that they aren’t finding this fun, and the correct answers are NOT “well don’t do it then/leave the game” those answers are asinine and INSULTING to others.

I’m guessing though that you’re of the mind that these players who have issues are “self entitled” (lol EA games coined phrase the IRONY!) and they should just be happy with what they have

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQd9FKD7fY6p9oh5QEnE45uJlG2LvHdfI_1eZj9tw628JR52NP5FA

Its a good argument you just do not like it. If you do not like to work for something then do not work for it. Its very simple commonsense logic. Its showing the shallowness of the grind argument when you cant even counter this type of logic and you must go out of your way just to call it “bad.”

I bought this game to play it, changes to said game and discrepancies between their claims in the manifesto video have in fact brought it to the point where I don’t play the game (ironically what you suggested haha) and so I and others who share the issues but haven’t left the game out of some strange sense of idealistic hope, tend to ponder why the only answer that is given by the community at large that defends the game is to “not play the game” as opposed to help encourage people towards looking at the positive aspects in the game.

Comparatively, if you’re talking about the alternative and healthy responses which breed discussion, and the cop out answer “stop playing, don’t do it etc” then honestly, there’s nothing “good” about you argument aside from you can’t argue with it because it’s so asinine. Cleverly stupid, is the term I’d use

Its really not they have stayed with there manifesto video. If any thing the players or your self even do not want to play by the Anet manifesto. You know some ppl have fun by getting HARD TO GET ITEMS and by making it easier to get your killing there fun so its you whom wants to remove other ppl fun.

I never said stop playing and it was nothing like it. I just think if your so focus on one thing in the game then your no longer playing the game your playing for that one item. It stop being a game at that point BUT that is the chose made by the player not by Anet. Now Anet could just remove these items from the game and there would be no more problem but i think most like the idea of having something that will take a long time to get. Look at it this way how much rage there was with the idea of just buying one of these weapons ppl want them to mean something to have it if every one has it then it means NOTING.

Heijincks.9267:

How is it stupid? If you don’t like doing something, you simply don’t do it. If you don’t like the game, then don’t play it. Just because you don’t like the game does not mean everyone else shares the same sentiments as you do.

With that being said, sure, I admit that the “don’t like it don’t play it” only works to a certain degree. This brings us back to the practical issue. If the flaw is in a place where the subject at hand is practical matter (eg. bugs), then “don’t like it don’t play it” wouldn’t work. However, if it’s something that’s impractical (eg. legendary obtainment), then “don’t like it don’t play it” does work.

Also, while Anet’s manifesto is extremely sensationalist, they never actually went against it.

They’ve been criticized for being misleading in their manifesto, it’s a HUGE bone of contention for a lot of ex players I’ve known outside of the game, many cite it as blatant “bait and switch” others as just “wrong” but that’s anecdotal.

My point on the matter is what does one argue against “don’t like it don’t play it” other than from the natural response
“OK, but that doesn’t change the fact that I now own a game I feel I wasted my money on, and that I was misled and now have nothing good to say about the developers and publishers of the game” and how on earth does the former answer bring us to ANYWHERE nearer to a proper discussion on what might be done to help alleviate that feeling and the issues that brought it about?

If an answer to an issue like this, leads to nothing else in terms of discussion, then it’s hardly a good answer becuase it doesn’t help drive towards anything else and remains a cop out.

To me, grinding is when I’m more or less ‘forced’ to play a certain aspect of the game, just to be able to keep up with the gear.

Or when something untrivial takes a long amount of time.

In both cases, Ascended gear qualifies.

Hellkaiser.6025:

Heijincks.9267:

How is it stupid? If you don’t like doing something, you simply don’t do it. If you don’t like the game, then don’t play it. Just because you don’t like the game does not mean everyone else shares the same sentiments as you do.

With that being said, sure, I admit that the “don’t like it don’t play it” only works to a certain degree. This brings us back to the practical issue. If the flaw is in a place where the subject at hand is practical matter (eg. bugs), then “don’t like it don’t play it” wouldn’t work. However, if it’s something that’s impractical (eg. legendary obtainment), then “don’t like it don’t play it” does work.

Also, while Anet’s manifesto is extremely sensationalist, they never actually went against it.

They’ve been criticized for being misleading in their manifesto, it’s a HUGE bone of contention for a lot of ex players I’ve known outside of the game, many cite it as blatant “bait and switch” others as just “wrong” but that’s anecdotal.

My point on the matter is what does one argue against “don’t like it don’t play it” other than from the natural response
“OK, but that doesn’t change the fact that I now own a game I feel I wasted my money on, and that I was misled and now have nothing good to say about the developers and publishers of the game” and how on earth does the former answer bring us to ANYWHERE nearer to a proper discussion on what might be done to help alleviate that feeling and the issues that brought it about?

If an answer to an issue like this, leads to nothing else in terms of discussion, then it’s hardly a good answer becuase it doesn’t help drive towards anything else and remains a cop out.

Misleading… to their own opinions. Remember that “grind” is completely relative from one person to the next. What’s grind to one person may not be considered grind for another. For all we know, ex-players might have been complaining about the grind for a legendary which kind of defeats the purpose of their argument.

Above all, Anet’s manifesto is sensationalist for a good reason: Marketing. If they actually went against it, it’d be false advertising. This is the reason players think Anet went against it because the sensationalism molds so well into what many players expect from a game, which is of course, subjective. It might not meet their expectations at the end, but at the same time, they weren’t lied to. You can say Anet’s being deliberately ambiguous.

With that being said, how good a game is would be completely subjective to an individual as well. What’s issues to you might not be issues to someone else. Problems are thus tackled on a majority basis since the subjective opinion would be the most common there, and whatever newly released would cater to the majority.

It might not solve your problem. It solves what the majority currently playing the game thinks is a problem.

EDIT: I don’t think you understand the extent of “don’t like it don’t play it”. No one can use that to excuse practical issues such as bugs. It however, can excuse styles of gameplay.

Jski.6180:

Its really not they have stayed with there manifesto video. If any thing the players or your self even do not want to play by the Anet manifesto. You know some ppl have fun by getting HARD TO GET ITEMS and by making it easier to get your killing there fun so its you whom wants to remove other ppl fun.

I never said stop playing and it was nothing like it. I just think if your so focus on one thing in the game then your no longer playing the game your playing for that one item. It stop being a game at that point BUT that is the chose made by the player not by Anet. Now Anet could just remove these items from the game and there would be no more problem but i think most like the idea of having something that will take a long time to get. Look at it this way how much rage there was with the idea of just buying one of these weapons ppl want them to mean something to have it if every one has it then it means NOTING.

“we don’t want you to grind” should never mean “we’re going to include grind centric design, and then punish you for grinding” this I’ve repeated so many times as being incredibly misleading. And nobody said make items EASIER to get, they said make them less reliant on RNG, stop people from flat out buying them etc etc etc etc etc, if they’re not going to keep crafting professions as relevant all through the game aside from levelling via it. Then at least don’t leave us to the whims of the worst type of RNG imaginable, the “korean esque” type…

And the answer “stop playing/dont’ do it” go hand in hand, they breed nothing in terms of discussion or resolution, or at least are far less likely to breed ideas or alternatives, and only serve as a cop out. Which I feel is kind of insulting to those with issue. And when it comes to the meaning of an item, if you can buy it flat out, then it’s not going to have much prestige, if it’s highly rng related you’re “lucky” not skilled in getting it, and if its got little to no challenge associated with the grinding of it’s materials there there’s not really much “awe and wonder” with grabbing the mats, it’s just a giant granite block that you defeat with a nail file by sheer stomach churning repetition, that’s how I find some aspects of this game. The other aspects such as WVWV may as well not exist since paid transfer went live as I’m on a dead server and can only guest into some action (read: people trolling in /m in L.A) and Spvp is about as meaningless as it gets.

clay.7849:

Calae.1738:

Grind:

A reward system combined with a style of gameplay that is easy and repetitive. If there is no reward there is no grind. If the reward can be aquired by repeating the same task over and over again; then that is a grind.

I like this, except for the fact that a grind is subjective. What I find a grind, you may not.

Which is why I would add that when something repetitive becomes boring or tedious, then it becomes a grind.

In fact, the first few times I farm an area, I don’t find it to be a grind. As I continue, it becomes more of a grind.

If going out in the open world killing NPC’s was fun and had no reward; even if you did it countless times it is not a grind. You’re actually enjoying yourself.

Ask yourself this…

If all rewards were removed from Guild Wars 2, which part of the game do you think would be fun enough to play without any reward?

The very idea that the designer has to bribe the player with rewards in order to get them to play thier game; calls into question if the game is any fun at all.

Calae.1738:

clay.7849:

Calae.1738:

Grind:

A reward system combined with a style of gameplay that is easy and repetitive. If there is no reward there is no grind. If the reward can be aquired by repeating the same task over and over again; then that is a grind.

I like this, except for the fact that a grind is subjective. What I find a grind, you may not.

Which is why I would add that when something repetitive becomes boring or tedious, then it becomes a grind.

In fact, the first few times I farm an area, I don’t find it to be a grind. As I continue, it becomes more of a grind.

If going out in the open world killing NPC’s was fun and had no reward; even if you did it countless times it is not a grind. You’re actually enjoying yourself.

[b]Ask yourself this…

If all rewards were removed from Guild Wars 2, which part of the game do you think would be fun enough to play without any reward?

The very idea that the designer has to bribe the player with rewards in order to get them to play thier game; calls into question if the game is any fun at all.[/b]

This is common to all MMORPGs actually. Actually no; all games. Actually, not even that. It’s even common even in life.

If there’s no reward in doing something, people won’t do it.

When I repeat a discreet piece of content often enough that I don’t have to think about what I’m doing anymore. No surprises, no randomness. It when playing a game makes me start feeling like my character is dragging me through tar.

My definition of “grind” being essentially forced or channeled in to one “route” and having to repeat content over and over again till im flagged as high enough to do the next bit of content without major incident.

So like being a level 28 and clear a map to 100% and then be “stuck” either repeating the same map content over and over till leveled enough for a 30+ zone or trying to do battle in a 30+ zone and getting whacked over and over wasting money on repairs.

Thats grind.

The simple fact is the XP curve in the game gets way to steep to soon, meaning you finish areas off before you level enough for the next zone. It imo needs the curve lowered a bit so that its not as “grindy” and is more dynamic to the player (cleared map = lvl 30> to next zone ) kinda thing.

Heijincks.9267:

Calae.1738:

clay.7849:

Calae.1738:

Grind:

A reward system combined with a style of gameplay that is easy and repetitive. If there is no reward there is no grind. If the reward can be aquired by repeating the same task over and over again; then that is a grind.

I like this, except for the fact that a grind is subjective. What I find a grind, you may not.

Which is why I would add that when something repetitive becomes boring or tedious, then it becomes a grind.

In fact, the first few times I farm an area, I don’t find it to be a grind. As I continue, it becomes more of a grind.

If going out in the open world killing NPC’s was fun and had no reward; even if you did it countless times it is not a grind. You’re actually enjoying yourself.

[b]Ask yourself this…

If all rewards were removed from Guild Wars 2, which part of the game do you think would be fun enough to play without any reward?

The very idea that the designer has to bribe the player with rewards in order to get them to play thier game; calls into question if the game is any fun at all.[/b]

This is common to all MMORPGs actually. Actually no; all games. Actually, not even that. It’s even common even in life.

If there’s no reward in doing something, people won’t do it.

I suppose all those people playing WvWvW must be crazy.

TwoBit.5903:

What is your definition of grind?

Guild Wars 2

Calae.1738:

Heijincks.9267:

Calae.1738:

clay.7849:

Calae.1738:

Grind:

A reward system combined with a style of gameplay that is easy and repetitive. If there is no reward there is no grind. If the reward can be aquired by repeating the same task over and over again; then that is a grind.

I like this, except for the fact that a grind is subjective. What I find a grind, you may not.

Which is why I would add that when something repetitive becomes boring or tedious, then it becomes a grind.

In fact, the first few times I farm an area, I don’t find it to be a grind. As I continue, it becomes more of a grind.

If going out in the open world killing NPC’s was fun and had no reward; even if you did it countless times it is not a grind. You’re actually enjoying yourself.

[b]Ask yourself this…

If all rewards were removed from Guild Wars 2, which part of the game do you think would be fun enough to play without any reward?

The very idea that the designer has to bribe the player with rewards in order to get them to play thier game; calls into question if the game is any fun at all.[/b]

This is common to all MMORPGs actually. Actually no; all games. Actually, not even that. It’s even common even in life.

If there’s no reward in doing something, people won’t do it.

I suppose all those people playing WvWvW must be crazy.

So you’re saying WvW has no rewards?

Grinding is simply defined as the repetition of activity for the sake of attaining “rewards”. So, yes, anything that demands repetition would fall under that definition.

But that doesn’t mean grinding is evil or wrong. Grinding is perfectly fine, so long as it doesn’t exceed an individual person’s subjective view of what is “too much”.

In this game’s context, however, they advertise themselves as “zero grind”, which is obviously false. There is grinding in this game, some optional and some not as much. But, again, it’s not evil just because it’s there. If it’s kept to a “reasonable” amount, it’s fine.

For example, I think that dailies individually are okay. But the pricing system of laurels is a grind of sorts, in that it expects you to repeat tasks for 30-40 days to attain a single reward. I’m not fond of dungeon rewards either, in that they expect you to run 23 times to obtain a full set of gear (less than the Ascended problem, but IMO still too high).

My preference would be to cut those amounts down, so that they’re not excessively demanding on people’s time and not expecting them to log in with absurd regularity in order to obtain rewards.

I think the problem with this thread is that people are confusing their own personal preferences with grind. Let me give you an example.

I don’t like WvW, so getting badges in WvW FEELS like a grind. It’s not really a grind, because those who do like WvW get them all the time. They have stacks of them. There are jumping puzzles I can do too, to get badges of honor.

But the bottom line is just because you don’t like to do something or it bores you, doesn’t make it grindy. It just feels grindy to you.

An objective grind is different from a subjective grind. For example, no matter how much you enjoy running dungeons, if you have to run the same dungeon over and over again, waiting for a specific piece of gear to drop that you specifically need to progress to the next dungeon, that would, objectively, be a grind. Even if you like dungeons, you’re still running that dungeon to get that one piece. And then there’s a person who ninjas it when it finally drops and you have to do it again. That’s grind in most games.

Karma couldn’t objectively be considered a grind, because there are so many ways to get karma.

If you want a set of Dungeon armor, getting the whole set could objectively be called a grind, due to the number of times you have to run that dungeon. But you don’t need that dungeon armor, you want it.

And that, I think is the difference. This game doesn’t gate content. You can do everything with greens if you want to, certainly rares. So you don’t NEED to grind. However, without grind, there’d be little to do in ANY MMO long term.

So grind has to exist. As long as it’s optional grind then no one should be complaining.

The problem with ascended gear is that some people say it’s necessary and some people say it isn’t. For those who feel you can comfortably play the game without it, like me, it’s not a grind. For those people who feel they absolutely must have it, it is one.