Guild Wars 2

Have you ever wondered why no one ever debates what the definition of “book” is?

Living languages are messy, hairy, ugly snaggles of slang and misappropriated words… add in to that sub-cultures that develop a term, which is then further fragmented by sub-cultures of the sub-culture… and then sprinkled heavily with “what is your definition of……” which further fragements the terms down with personal definitions competing for canonical legitimacy….

“Only the dead have seen the end of war.” Plato or maybe George Santayana …. speaking of misappropriation.

Something is only a grind when I begin to find it monotonous.

That’s yet to happen.

zityz.6089:

This game doesn’t have nearly as much grind as some other MMO’s do. Heck the ascended pieces aren’t even that bad. Just do what you do, do some dailies that take what? 10 minutes to 30 minutes a day? just doing what your normally doing in game for the most part and you’ll eventually get them.

Stuff on the auction house isn’t all that pricy and ectos are NO WHERE near as hard to acquire in this game as they were in GW1.

The Fissure of Woe Armour or Vabbi Armour was more of a grind than 95% of anything in this game.

That’s my opinion at least.

What did you need piles of ectos in GW1 for? A straight comparison saying “oh an ecto is easier to get” means nothing.

Grind: Game play done not for its intrinsic value but rather as a means to some end.

In other words, if I play just to get something then I’m grinding.

I’ll stick with my version of the classic grind. Grind in a game is performing actions I don’t particularly enjoy over and over and over because there is no alternative means to progress towards my objective, which is usually to play the whole game.

Using this definition:

• WoW raids with the tier gear system were grind
• GW2 has no grind

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ll stick with my version of the classic grind. Grind in a game is performing actions I don’t particularly enjoy over and over and over because there is no alternative means to progress towards my objective, which is usually to play the whole game.

Using this definition:

• WoW raids with the tier gear system were grind
• GW2 has no grind

This.

Guild Wars 1 defines grind pretty good, imo.

I’ve never had a problem with it, I saw it as a ‘duty’ of/in the game to progress with something.

Treasure hunter in gw1 was a monster, but it sure gave the player a sense of achievement when you maxed it. It that respect it has it’s purpose.

yorick.1305:

I’ve never had a problem with it, I saw it as a ‘duty’ of/in the game to progress with something.

Treasure hunter in gw1 was a monster, but it sure gave the player a sense of achievement when you maxed it. It that respect it has it’s purpose.

It’s the same grind as in GW2 but people either haven’t played GW1 since release or they just want to sugarcoat it. If you look at GW1 since release it had one of the worst grinds I’ve seen in a pay2play (also includes monthly subgames) MMO.

@DigitalKirin

An agreement of the disparity and varieties in meaning can be a consensus, no? At least this way people can probe the meaning of other people’s grinds whenever the discussion comes up, instead of attacking and writing it off.

@Bluewanders

A book is a tangible, physical thing. A grind is an experience.

Heijincks.9267:

If there’s no reward in doing something, people won’t do it.

That’s not true, and we are the proof. there’s no reward in playing this game, and yet we’re here. Or should i say, fun is a reward in itself.

TwoBit.5903:

@DigitalKirin

An agreement of the disparity and varieties in meaning can be a consensus, no? At least this way people can probe the meaning of other people’s grinds whenever the discussion comes up, instead of attacking and writing it off.

@Bluewanders

A book is a tangible, physical thing. A grind is an experience.

Apples and pears I’m afraid. Both books and grind can be quantified. For a book it of course would be a collection of pages with sentences that form some sort of coherent whole. A grind as stated it a singular repetitive action performed to obtain a specific goal.

What you are comparing is the quantified item, book, to the negative or positive feeling when grinding. The feeling associated with grinding has nothing to do with the definition of it. To go back to the book you are not quantifying the book, but rather whether you like it or not.

Grind is defined, but if something is considered a grind is personal.

Conner.4702:

TwoBit.5903:

@DigitalKirin

An agreement of the disparity and varieties in meaning can be a consensus, no? At least this way people can probe the meaning of other people’s grinds whenever the discussion comes up, instead of attacking and writing it off.

@Bluewanders

A book is a tangible, physical thing. A grind is an experience.

Apples and pears I’m afraid. Both books and grind can be quantified. For a book it of course would be a collection of pages with sentences that form some sort of coherent whole. A grind as stated it a singular repetitive action performed to obtain a specific goal.

What you are comparing is the quantified item, book, to the negative or positive feeling when grinding. The feeling associated with grinding has nothing to do with the definition of it. To go back to the book you are not quantifying the book, but rather whether you like it or not.

Grind is defined, but if something is considered a grind is personal.

Books have also been around for centuries. The definition of grind is only a few decades old. The connotation can very well be part of the definition, especially when ANet uses fun in theirs. You can hardly like or dislike the existence of books. You can like or dislike reading them, but the existence themselves warrants no like or dislike. But apparently you can for grind. That is, in ANet’s opinion at least.

And didn’t I already show how inadequate the common definition was? Many games require repetition of action, often singular action. In shooters you shoot, over and over. Often the situations and even environments are repeated.

You are failing to realise what people consider a grind is a state of mind. No discussion can be had until you admit that. My previous posts stands like a house. You can’t put a definition on what people feel is a grind just what a grind is and that has been established.

Also anet didn’t say the game wouldn’t have grind just no mandatory grind. If that is still the case is a different discussion all together.

Conner.4702:

You are failing to realise what people consider a grind is a state of mind. No discussion can be had until you admit that. My previous posts stands like a house. You can’t put a definition on what people feel is a grind just what a grind is and that has been established.

Also anet didn’t say the game wouldn’t have grind just no mandatory grind. If that is still the case is a different discussion all together.

I did say that. I said it’s an experience. You quoted me on that. What’s more useful is defining the the processes that cause the experience, and the current definition of the process is too vague and inadequate.

And this discussion is related to ANet’s definition of grind, not the implementation or their intent with it.

Grind is very obvious, it’s things like ascended gear (stat progression) and legendary. Long goals that take forever to finish and tons of gold sinks, RNG. Massive, massive, RNG.

I think this entire game is a grind because the loot is so horrid. I like guarantee’d, or at least loot tables with a chance of a boss dropping a certain table of rare loot. Named equipment with special looks etc like GW1 had. I hate running dungeons and not knowing what the hell is going to drop, or what even has a chance of dropping then getting a bunch of blue trash from the end chests.

What are you guys talking about?

Grinds don’t have any meaning without rewards. It depends on how the reward schedule is structured.

1) An event is completed (Player receives all rewards – 100% chance)

2) An event is completed (Player recieves reward token. Player can buy items from catalogue ranging from 1 token to 100 tokens.)

3) An event is completed (Player may or may not recieve reward – 10% chance)

2 and 3 are grinds by definition. The only way to make 1 repeatable is to make it fun and varied. It has to be random enough to provide a different experience each time. Which MMO developers have yet to do.

My personal definition of a grind is having to do the same thing over and over again in order to get to my goal when this thing never seems to change and/or is a challenge.
Per example doing a dungeon isn’t a grind to me, you’ll have to stay on your toes sometimes, pay attention, and there are 3 paths to take.
However, trying to obtain lodestones for a weapon from the mystic forge… Yuck. Killing mobs over and over mindlessly to hardly get anything useful, let alone the item you want. That’s a grind to me.

I really don’t mind working towards a goal, as long as I know that if I do x everyday, I’ll have that reward in y amount of days.

(I gave the mystic forge weapons as an example, however I ought to say, I don’t think they should remove the ridiculously high cost on some of those weapons. Although it would be nice to have some more cool skins that require less of the materials…)

So for those using pacing as an argument for grind, is something no longer considered a grind if I still do the total amount of work, but am forced to take periodic breaks?

As for the reward argument, how does one classify a reward? Is it something whose value is dictated by the game or something whose value is dictated by the player doing the grinding? Could dailies be grind for some based on perceived value or dictated value?

I think that the term “grind” can get really vague and arbitrary, because everyone just applies their own threshold. If someone has to do something they do not like more than a couple of times to get X, they call it a grind because it feels boring – like time is dragging by.
“grinding” is repeating an unenjoyable action for as long as the person has patience for it.

I kinda find that it’s morphed from a neutral term to describe what’s basically farming, to a negative term for uninteresting repetitive tasks. And the tasks could be anything; someone mentioned WvW tokens. I just have them piling up because I enjoy WvW and get them as a benefit of playing – others with the same amount of tokens as I might feel like they’re grinding them, because they don’t like WvW.

It’s all perspective, so I always take it with a grain of salt when people call this, that, or the other “a grind”.

TwoBit.5903:

So for those using pacing as an argument for grind, is something no longer considered a grind if I still do the total amount of work, but am forced to take periodic breaks?

Nope. That would just make the grind last longer. It would not be considered a grind only if you were doing this not for reward, but simply because that’s how you play.

TwoBit.5903:

What’s more useful is defining the the processes that cause the experience, and the current definition of the process is too vague and inadequate.

I disagree, I think what’s more useful is realizing that the process generates a feeling(experience) for a person, and for that person to realize and understand inside of themselves how to properly react to said feeling(experience).

If we were to define the process of grinding in its most general term, I think my definition of “a repetitive action that causes a wearing away” is completely appropriate. It encompasses each action that people consider a grind and distills it down to one concept.

The problem with trying to do the opposite of repetition in a game (and not just MMOs, but just about every single game in existence) is that core elements rely on the ability to repeat and replay.

Let us instead take an example of a one time event that you will never ever be able to replay. The Introduction of the Lost Shores was a one time event. They’ll never replay/reintroduce the Lost Shores and Southsun Cove. Those that were able to attend got to see whatever cutscenes and play whatever missions. Those who couldn’t make it missed out and will never get to experience those. It is therefore impossible to “grind” any mission that might have been associated with this experience. Does that make one-time experiences the kind of things that should be implemented to avoid “grind”?

The Choice to do a repetitive action until you reach a state of mental fatigue is entirely yours. If the reward at the end of the adventure isn’t worth the effort, stop putting in the effort. Your time is valuable and better spent doing something that you will find fulfillment in.

A better defined process gives way to a better understanding of its effects. And by better I don’t mean thorough, just more accurate or appropriate. I think “wearing away” sums up the general view pretty nicely, but it doesn’t explain why as well as it could. How about adding “due to lack of intrinsic motivation” at the end?

And I agree with your feelings on Lost Shores event. Repetition is not intrinsically bad, and along the same lines one-time events aren’t intrinsically good. If I watch a good movie, for instance, I’m more likely to watch it again. If the movies bad, I won’t.

I pretty much define it as an artificial barrier that exists for the sole purpose of elongating an activity. For example, adding a couple zeros to the amount of materials needed to craft some item isn’t any harder compared to how hard it would be with less zeros — It just takes longer. Much longer.

Actual difficulty and artificial timesinks are a completely different thing, in my opinion.

@LunaNosCustodit

That’s certainly something a grind could be used for, but I think there are other mechanics that fit the criteria.

To me grinding is the classic grinding. Slaughtering mobs on end to gain experience to level, without any real quests. Grinding a full gear of PvP or PvE armor in WoW. Do the same thing over and over, for several hours each session, for several sessions.

One could (but shouldnt) argue that dailies in this game is a grind to get laurels, but it really isnt. It’s a side thing you get done while doing other things, many of your own choice. Maybe you need to do one daily part you really dont want to some day, but its not a grind.

To me grinding is killing x mobs for 0.0xxx xp gain while looking for 0.00xxx drop to either use / craft something with (think Ragnarok Online/EQ @release). This game doesn’t quite have that. Feels like it at times but /shrug.

To me, grinding is relative to the person, and yes, it does have to do with enjoyment of said activity. But enjoyment and grinding are not mutually exclusive. You can enjoy grinding, but that’s you, and it may differ from person to person.

My definition of grind is when an activity is repeated that offers no avenues for the player to improve upon. When the challenge in doing a certain activity is lost, there simply is little to no motivation to do it. If said motivation is only supplied by the shiny at the other end, then this is exactly the grind that feels unrewarding and boring.

As such, there is a lot of grind in Guild Wars 2. Heaps. Its a stark contrast to a game such as the first Monster Hunters, where I might slay a boss 30 times just for a particular piece of item, but the challenge is there every time, keeping the experience fresh.

In that game, I can reduce the feeling of ‘grind’ simply by changing weapons. This is often less true with GW2 because the amount of investment required in changing a build. More often than not, you will be repeating a simple activity using the same build. This is not rewarding, and feels completely grindy.

IMO.

Somthing is a grind when you feel like you’ve done the task a million times and you want to quickly get it out of the way to do somthing else.

Any sort of repetitious task done over a long period of time to achieve some kind of goal.

I don’t think grind to me has a negative connotation though. A grind that forces one to take unwanted detours on the other hand is a very annoying thing.

What is your definition of grind?

November 16th, 2012

runeblade.7514:

What is your definition of grind?

November 16th, 2012

lol

runeblade.7514:

What is your definition of grind?

November 16th, 2012

smart +1

Kill one million karka.

1. Ragnarok Online
2. World of Warcraft
3. Diablo 3

There is obviously alot of grinding in the game. The argument that you “don’t need to” is completely redundant. There is only so much content in this game. Seeing Anet implementing all these carrots on a stick for people scares me. Why? Because its a clear indication by them that they are not intending on giving this game the development attention it deserves. They brought out a pretty good game. Now they are dropping it like a dead horse. It saddens me.

sostronk.8167:

There is obviously alot of grinding in the game. The argument that you “don’t need to” is completely redundant. There is only so much content in this game. Seeing Anet implementing all these carrots on a stick for people scares me. Why? Because its a clear indication by them that they are not intending on giving this game the development attention it deserves. They brought out a pretty good game. Now they are dropping it like a dead horse. It saddens me.

1. How is it redundant? Because you can’t argue against it?

2. There is only so much content in EVERY game.

3. They are giving plenty of attention to the game. Not all updates are well received but the fact that they are updates proves how wrong you are.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

sostronk.8167:

There is obviously alot of grinding in the game. The argument that you “don’t need to” is completely redundant. There is only so much content in this game. Seeing Anet implementing all these carrots on a stick for people scares me. Why? Because its a clear indication by them that they are not intending on giving this game the development attention it deserves. They brought out a pretty good game. Now they are dropping it like a dead horse. It saddens me.

1. How is it redundant? Because you can’t argue against it?

2. There is only so much content in EVERY game.

3. They are giving plenty of attention to the game. Not all updates are well received but the fact that they are updates proves how wrong you are.

Why the heck is WoW a grind to you then? You can wait for the next season to get the previous season’s stuff with gold. Which is abundant and easy to come by. All you need to do are dailies for gold to buy gear that is capable of getting into the next raids.

Oh and by dailies, I mean that they are the easiest way of accumulating gold, certainly not the only. In fact if we all fly with the ‘you don’t have to do it’ argument, WoW is much less grindy than Guild Wars 2.

sostronk.8167:

There is obviously alot of grinding in the game. The argument that you “don’t need to” is completely redundant. There is only so much content in this game. Seeing Anet implementing all these carrots on a stick for people scares me. Why? Because its a clear indication by them that they are not intending on giving this game the development attention it deserves. They brought out a pretty good game. Now they are dropping it like a dead horse. It saddens me.

I’m not sure where you have found this “grinding” in GW2.

I have 3 fully geared character and I never needed to farm or grind anything.
Got their exotics by completing 60+ maps and selling rewards for gold.
Got ascended rings by simply playing fractals and opening chests with rings (and I have 40+ unused ones in bank).
Got my ascended amulets naturally by getting laurels over time, which most times didn’t even require me to go out my usual gaming route.
Got my ascended back by simply using the mystic forge with the capacitator I got with relics that I got by playing the game.

So where is this whole required grinding monster that haunts GW2?

Grinding for me is having to repeat tasks i do not want to just to get equipment of higher levels i need to be optimal (game is balanced around highest lvl…..you can easily see they are boosting difficulty in EVERY area….from open pve to fotm).

But grind is also limiting my game just because i need to farm.

I’d like to not play cof ut i need moneys for a legendary TIER weapon (still cannot afford HALF and i play a lot i’d want to know how people can have 3-4).

I’d like to have personal goals like mists weapons (vision of the mist, lyss etc) but i cannot because i have to save moneys for …..legendary weapons.

Also because ascended probably will make my equipment obsolete…

I’d like to try many builds in game (trying in the mist is useless for me) but i cannot because the ridiculous cost of ascended equipment so i can t experiment with stats

That was just a change introduced after nov15, before aside a lack of endgame content (that is NOT grind but dungeons etc) it was a lot better.

Now we have people that thinks that farming like bots to get stats is “fun”….while people who liked to explore content and play things they like are just looking for other games.

Grind is farming furbolgs for weeks for their feathers and beads just to add five reputation points until you get 21K

Grind is trying to reach PVP rank 11 and up farming warsong gulch over and over again for 10 hours a day (8 work and 6 sleepeat etc)

Grind is trying to level back above lvl 62 in KO doing harpies packs and these skeletal knights over and over again for days, after you got killed and lost XP. (that what we did ten years ago)

Grind is trying to get the exact first age legendary sword that its legacies will match your Minstrel virtues and then level it up by farming and deconstructing worse legendary swords…

Grind … is to do boring repetitive things that you forced to do in order to achieve gaming goal that will allow you to progress in game .

the only grind that exist in GW2 is legendary weapon grind, and it is NOT mandatory (unless Anet will give legendary weapons better stats than exotics, which will be BIG FAIL).

ascended items are not “grind” they are outcome effect of doing fractals for fun.
rings are very easy to obtain. back takes little more time, its a matter of progress.
if you don’t do fractals for fun, you don’t need ascended items.

the ability to purchase ascended rings with dailies, its just for the ego of people who refuse to do fractals but still want to wear ascended items as a status symbol.

the ability to purchase ascended amulets only with dailies, i have no idea why such crooked system was implemented, but there is no real grind in it.

I logon,
I play,
some fractals, some dungeon, some WWW and the daily is completed by itself.

To me, a “grind” is an in-game activity which I feel pressed to do, even though I don’t like doing it, so as to reach some content which I expect to be “fun”, e.g. in WoW it was having to ‘gear up’ to be able to do content with my guildies.

So, GW2 doesn’t have a grind, in my view.

bluewanders.5297:

Have you ever wondered why no one ever debates what the definition of “book” is?

Pretty much because we are discussing a game and a definition of the term “book” is not needed in this context. In fact you will have to define the term book for example when speaking in context of bookbinding or editing to distinguish it from other forms like brochures or journals. So you can have several definitions of the term “book”, all given in a different context.

About the word “grind” I would say it is an action in videogames repetively done not only for the sheer pleasure of doing the action itself but in order to gain an expected reward.

Imo it does not matter if the grind is optional, or if it can be fun for some people to grind. Both are highly subjective categories. While grinding can be fun for someone I doubt that person would do what he/she is doing if there was no other reward than the pleasure of the action itself.

If a reward requires repetition without taking the pleasure of that action into it’s main focus but sets the reward as the main goal then I would say that particular reward requires grind and it does not matter if that reward is “needed” by someone or not.

You can however discuss wether grind for optional rewards is better than grind for necessary rewards.

Lalangamena.3694:

ascended items are not “grind” they are outcome effect of doing fractals for fun.
rings are very easy to obtain. back takes little more time, its a matter of progress.
if you don’t do fractals for fun, you don’t need ascended items.

agree but they force you to play fotm (i like them anyway) but at least are really easy to get….

Earrings and necklace btw

You forgot earrings really….

And as i said you find necklace easy to get?
Well lets say they nerf my character so my old build gets really unplayable (as anet is known to do often)….

Now i need a new ascended set….

And i need months to get new earrings and necklace…….that is grind.

LordByron.8369:

You forgot earrings really….

earrings are a guild mission rewards.
the ability to get them through too much laurels and too much ectos is again to cater people who refuse to join a guild
{or people whos “laid back liberal” guild of six people spend the time Role Playing separatists and queen Jennah followers in Eebonhawke }

here again, the reward should have been a really cool armor and weapon skin, not stat item for fractals.

I said I don’t understand why ascended items used as reward for dailies, this is a design flaw (IMHO) but there is no grind in that, as you will not get the amulet faster than 20 days (20 from dailies + 10 from monthly) no matter how much time and effort you invest in it…
working family guy who can play for one hour after his kids went to sleep and a college boy on vacation who plays 24/7 both will reach the ascended amulet exactly at the same time.

Lalangamena.3694:

the only grind that exist in GW2 is legendary weapon grind, and it is NOT mandatory (unless Anet will give legendary weapons better stats than exotics, which will be BIG FAIL).

ascended items are not “grind” they are outcome effect of doing fractals for fun.
rings are very easy to obtain. back takes little more time, its a matter of progress.
if you don’t do fractals for fun, you don’t need ascended items.

So, if I read you well, if legendaries don’t have better stats, they are an optional grind. If they have better stats they are a mandatory grind. So I understand that if something got better stats it’s mandatory in your eyes.

And then you say that ascended items have better stats but they are completely optional. Why ?

stof.9341:

And then you say that ascended items have better stats but they are completely optional. Why ?

maybe i didn’t expressed myself right.
I meant to say that ascended items are not grind at all, thats why the increased stats are OK for the small effort of obtaining them.
legendary weapons are huge grind, thats why increased stats are no OK.

I’m not sure how you can say that 80 days worth of dailies and 3 monthlies is such a “small” grind. At the rate of one hour per daily that’s quite some grind here. You still need to find 100 ectos and two ring through fractal too. It’s not as if running a daily level 10 fractal gives you much in the way of the regular daily completion either.

stof.9341:

I’m not sure how you can say that 80 days worth of dailies and 3 monthlies is such a “small” grind. At the rate of one hour per daily that’s quite some grind here. You still need to find 100 ectos and two ring through fractal too. It’s not as if running a daily level 10 fractal gives you much in the way of the regular daily completion either.

I never thought of it as a collective time but you have a point. 80 hours is insane.

Fortuna.7259:

Grind: Game play done not for its intrinsic value but rather as a means to some end.

In other words, if I play just to get something then I’m grinding.

So the road matters not, but for the destination at the end?