Guild Wars 2

What do you look for in your own creations?
Do your builds tend to follow the meta?
Do you think meta builds are always the strongest or best of their type?

What do you think is imperative for a build to be considered “strong”?

And do you think the strongest builds are fun to play or repetitive? Are less efficient builds more fun and interesting?

I don’t follow metas, though I’ve been impressed enough with certain hammer warriors in PvP that I’ve tried to figure a build out. As long as my guys don’t die, can damage the bad guys, and have a decent synchronicity with skills and traits then I’m satisfied.

needs to be very good at what it’s supposed to do

I ignore the “meta”, but a few of my builds are near meta anyway, because the meta builds tend to be good at what they set out to do. Like there isn’t a whole lot of flexibility in build choice when going for the mathematically maximum possible dps, for example.

Anything that “does its job” very fast, and can maintain themselves in all content to a higher level.

Can be damage, healing, CC etc.

I have never followed meta, meta sux, and most of the time meta is full zerk, but that makes you weak and you die alot.

When I make a build, I usualy try to get as much power as possible while trying to maximize vitality w/o too many percision losses, and I prefer to use wepons and skills that give you survivabilty options over dmg, that makes you very sustainable ehile dealing enough dmg that you outdmg other zerk builders that are constantly dead

For the current meta it’s:

“As much damage as possible, as little utility as needed.”

Many mistake this line however for “Bring all the DPS you can.”
This only works for a select few who have mastered the battlefield and its mechanics.

In many cases it’s worth bringing something else to either stay alive yourself, or to keep your party alive. The dead don’t deal DPS.

I have for nearly my entire play-time as a Guardian chosen the Hammer over the Greatsword for damage. Not because I knew the damage of the hammer in the long run would be better than the Greatsword’s burst, but because I liked the utility the hammer had to offer despite its slow attack speed.

A strong build for me, is a build that fits your own playstyle and fulfills its duty even if its in a lesser amount as the optimized DPS-builds.

Which is also what frustrates me about raids and their DPS-thresholds.
If you don’t deal enough damage quickly enough, you won’t be able to kill Gorseval for example.
From what I’ve heard, this threshold is thought to be so high that mostly only the “Meta” builds are considered “worthy” to bring. I haven’t had the ability to try a raid out with a minimum amount of optimized DPS-builds, but I’d surely like to know if raids are indeed for the Hardcore players who stick to the meta (-or slight deviations thereof), or if less optimized builds can still complete them.

P.S.
The Guardian-Meta has one of the most fun histories ever.
There have been times, shortly after the release of GW2, when the Guardian’s Meta was the “AH-Anchor Guardian”. A build focussed on selfish healing with Altruistic Healing to sustain.
It was a Comfort-Zone build, for those who feared death and thus became bunkers.

I remember a lot of these “utility-builds” back in the day.

• Healing Shouts Warrior, Regen-warrior!
• Sword/Pistol thief.
• Healer-Necro with 100% vit/healing power + healing from wells.
• Longbow/Bear-pet ranger, which is still used quite often.

It took a while for the GW2 players to switch to the Meta as it is today.
Dungeons weren’t completely known yet, mechanics themselves weren’t.

A “comfort-zone” was very much appreciated in builds, if you weren’t confident in your skills.

Nowadays this “comfort-zone” is seen as weakness because you’re not “meta” enough by many.
For this you ought to remember the following things:

1. Following the presumed “meta” and going 100% DPS might satisfy some LFG-messages, but a constantly downed or even defeated player is a lot more pointless than one dealing 70% of the “optimal” DPS.
2. Don’t get too comfortable in your comfort-zone, if you stay there you won’t evolve a lot as a player. Try to feel comfortable with taking risks.
3. Customize your builds, feel free to begin with a meta-build and add a bit more of yourself to it. Meta-builds aren’t sacred-templates that fail to function properly if you tinker with it a bit. Feel free to remove a +10% damage trait if in return you get a party-wide condi-cleanse or anything else you desire.
4. Play as you want, create your own LFG’s, find like-minded players, perhaps even join a guild with this mindset. There is a lot more to PvE and PvP than the exact Meta found on Metabattle.com.

I hear a lot about this Meta but I must wonder since so many people I talk to disagree with it where exactly does it come from? Who dictates the Meta if not the players themselves?

I use “meta” purely as something to follow while building up synergy with my traits. I like to have my characters as “lore-appropriate” as they can be in my head so I use a lot of utilities that aren’t deemed meta. The main reason I like metabuild pages is only for learning rotations and finding new ways to blast your own fields (for example ele, which took me personally a long time to figure out how to stack on my own).

Plazar.8946:

I have never followed meta, meta sux, and most of the time meta is full zerk, but that makes you weak and you die alot.

When I make a build, I usualy try to get as much power as possible while trying to maximize vitality w/o too many percision losses, and I prefer to use wepons and skills that give you survivabilty options over dmg, that makes you very sustainable ehile dealing enough dmg that you outdmg other zerk builders that are constantly dead

Meta builds don’t make you die a lot. A lack of skill playing with zerker builds makes you die a lot.

Nero.8047:

I have for nearly my entire play-time as a Guardian chosen the Hammer over the Greatsword for damage. Not because I knew the damage of the hammer in the long run would be better than the Greatsword’s burst, but because I liked the utility the hammer had to offer despite its slow attack speed.

I’m right there with you. I created my own build for the Guardian revolving around staying alive as long as possible, as well as making sure that anyone within my range (standing next to me is best) get buffs as well that can help them sustain damage longer.

Have been using it ever since as my go to build/weapon for any challenging content. Sure, it’s not full Zerker, and I don’t play with Meta groups. But it suits my preference and has gotten the job done more times than not.

I feel that the Meta is simply a thing that limits us, and in order to be better players we all need to challenge the meta and create something that can match it, but is our own in design. The Meta is a rule, so break it

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Plazar.8946:

I have never followed meta, meta sux, and most of the time meta is full zerk, but that makes you weak and you die alot.

When I make a build, I usualy try to get as much power as possible while trying to maximize vitality w/o too many percision losses, and I prefer to use wepons and skills that give you survivabilty options over dmg, that makes you very sustainable ehile dealing enough dmg that you outdmg other zerk builders that are constantly dead

Meta builds don’t make you die a lot. A lack of skill playing with zerker builds makes you die a lot.

More often than not, it’s lack of experience rather than skill. Nobody knows a fight beforehand. Which is why people chafe against the meta. You send out the message “you are a bad player if you don’t use the meta”. Nobody wants to think of themselves as a bad player, so they cave into the pressure of only using the meta, and then they become a liability.

If you are running pure zerk when learning a fight, you are a liability. And if you are a liability, you are a manifesting yourself as a bad player, regardless of you “skill”. Plain and simple.

After you master the fight. THEN go full zerk.

DGraves.3720:

I hear a lot about this Meta but I must wonder since so many people I talk to disagree with it where exactly does it come from? Who dictates the Meta if not the players themselves?

The meta is not dictated by the majority of the players in itself.
It stems mostly from a commonly agreed upon stance towards gameplay embodied by a sub-group of players.

In other words:
Guild Wars 2 players are often either lost or curious.
They encounter challenges and ask themselves the eternal question.

“How could I be more efficient in this situation?”

The general thought often becomes:
“I would like to have the same tools to my disposition as others who seem to be clearing content more efficiently.”

Websites like www.Metabattle.com provide these tools.

These tools are finely adjusted to the creed of:
“As much damage as possible, as little utility as needed.”

Keywords included in the topic of what is “Meta” for Guild Wars 2 are:

• Meta, with the meaning of a Meta-Theory which has the possibility of being unique to any subject.
• Efficiency, which differs per game-mode.

Efficiency for the PvE-Meta is the quote I cited above.
“As much damage as possible, as little utility as needed.”

Efficiency for the PvP-Meta differs due to the involvement of multiple factors such as the behaviour of the opponent and active counter-play.
This results in more aspects which are to be added to the PvE-creed.
Efficiency in the shape and form of speed is no longer the sole-purpose of PvP-meta-builds.
Survivability and other counters also become of importance.

In Short:

• The Term “Meta” does not indicate it’s a silent majority’s vote for a specific build or type of gameplay.
• The “Meta” is dictated by a minority of skilled players who are recognized for their gameplay-abilities and act as Paragons (embodiments of an ideal) to other players. These players desire to attain the same tools as the skilled players.
• In PvE it’s in itself also a comfort-zone for PUG’s in that you can be certain of what to expect in your party composition. It is easier to have a simple strategy such as: “Stack -> Aggro -> Kill” Especially when the game’s mechanics support it so well. This strategy requires no intricate cooperation or Voice-chat to work as players know what do to and expect.
• In PvP it’s either a well-balanced build containing excellent embodiments of all aspects of what can be expected in PvP. Or it’s a cheese build excelling in a certain aspect. (Bunker builds, Burst builds.) Naturally there are gradations made by player customization. Which is a reason why you experience the “Meta” being mentioned as more negatively in PvE than in PvP.
• Meta-builds are often also supported well by theory. As an Example: Numbers indicate their damage output is higher than other builds and thus their efficiency is also greater.

Disclaimer and personal note: (Don’t read if all you cared about was an objective answer. ^^)
I fully support builds that deviate from the “Meta” and do so for their originality and character. I do believe that playing a “Non-Meta” build would often result in giving yourself a handicap due to the objective advantage the Meta-builds supported by theoretic evidence have. I do however welcome this handicap as “efficiency” is a word that often sounds more toxic to me than the “Meta”.

The term “Meta” is not synonymous to “optimized efficiency” although one does crave for the other. I, once again, advise players to step out of their comfort zones.
Be it the comfort-zone created by bunker-builds or by 100% Meta Zerker-builds. Playing a seemingly optimized meta-build does not guarantee you to be an optimized player and it may even result in an inefficiency. If you can not handle the lack of armour of a 100% Berserker build, do not feel compelled to use it. Playing at your own level is not admitting defeat or inferiority compared to other players. It is being honest with yourself.

As DGraves said many people disagree with what is considered “Meta”.
If you dislike it, don’t play it. Guild Wars 2 is a game, not a job at which you must perform at peak-efficiency even if you can’t handle it.

There are many players who do not use “Meta-builds” myself included.
I lead an entire guild of this variation of players and can assure you, we exist and we have fun. If you’re reading this and you find yourself disgruntled by the Meta, simply stop feeling bothered by it. There is a large portion of the game’s community that is very vocal of their opinions be it a stance on the meta or anything else.

If you’re still feeling bothered by meta-gameplay, just PM me in-game.
If you’re an EU player I’ll gladly play with you.

Kind regards,

He who bears no ill-will towards Meta-players or Non-Meta-players and merely dislikes the tendency of other players to control another’s gameplay.

Play as you want,

Nero.

P.S. INB4 “GIT GUD NUB!”

Brekknar.3567:

Nero.8047:

I have for nearly my entire play-time as a Guardian chosen the Hammer over the Greatsword for damage. Not because I knew the damage of the hammer in the long run would be better than the Greatsword’s burst, but because I liked the utility the hammer had to offer despite its slow attack speed.

I’m right there with you. I created my own build for the Guardian revolving around staying alive as long as possible, as well as making sure that anyone within my range (standing next to me is best) get buffs as well that can help them sustain damage longer.

Have been using it ever since as my go to build/weapon for any challenging content. Sure, it’s not full Zerker, and I don’t play with Meta groups. But it suits my preference and has gotten the job done more times than not.

I feel that the Meta is simply a thing that limits us, and in order to be better players we all need to challenge the meta and create something that can match it, but is our own in design. The Meta is a rule, so break it

You’re cool, I like you and your playstyle! ^^

Ticky.5831:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Plazar.8946:

I have never followed meta, meta sux, and most of the time meta is full zerk, but that makes you weak and you die alot.

When I make a build, I usualy try to get as much power as possible while trying to maximize vitality w/o too many percision losses, and I prefer to use wepons and skills that give you survivabilty options over dmg, that makes you very sustainable ehile dealing enough dmg that you outdmg other zerk builders that are constantly dead

Meta builds don’t make you die a lot. A lack of skill playing with zerker builds makes you die a lot.

More often than not, it’s lack of experience rather than skill. Nobody knows a fight beforehand. Which is why people chafe against the meta. You send out the message “you are a bad player if you don’t use the meta”. Nobody wants to think of themselves as a bad player, so they cave into the pressure of only using the meta, and then they become a liability.

If you are running pure zerk when learning a fight, you are a liability. And if you are a liability, you are a manifesting yourself as a bad player, regardless of you “skill”. Plain and simple.

After you master the fight. THEN go full zerk.

Reading comprehension skills are hard too, it seems. I didn’t say players are bad if they don’t use the meta. I said that players who don’t know their class but go full zerk anyway have a high probablity of dying and being a liability in a fight. That is not the same thing. It’s not the build that makes the difference, it’s the person at the controls. And a lack of skills often comes from not having enough experience in a certain fight. Again, not the build, but the person controlling it.

You are not a liability if you’re learning a fight in pure zerk gear. Most of my characters have full zerk gear and that is how my guild Raid group entered the Forsaken Thicket the first time. Sure, we could’ve donned PVT gear (to name one example) but considering the timers on those fights I am pretty sure it would’ve taken us a lot longer to master the fights in PVT gear than in zerker gear. And regardless of fight mechanics, your skills don’t change. Dodging remains the same, evade skills remain the same, fighting enemies from behind so you don’t get hit full frontal, fighting at maximum melee range, etc. Those are all skills, not builds. You learn the mechanics of a fight just as well in zerker gear as in PVT gear. How fast and how well depends on you, not your build. Switch a few utilities if you need more protection when you’re just starting to learn a fight, but no need to considerably lower your damage output and drag out the fight for longer than it needs to, giving your enemy more opportunity to kill you and your allies. People who don’t know how to dodge will not miraculously know how to once they let go of their meta builds and zerker gear.

So I stick by my initial response: it’s not the build but your lack of skills that kill you. And whenever you lack skill, you practice to become better. If you don’t, that’s fine, but that means certain content will always be more challenging to you than it is to others. That doesn’t make them bad players, it makes them players who prefer other types of content or other types of gameplay. Less suitable for speedclearing a dungeon or clearing a Raid wing in an hour, but they could be great at other things. So don’t jump to conclusions. The majority of the player base will agree that it’s your personal skills that make you a good player or not, not your gear stats or build. That goes for everything in life: with the right tools AND sufficient skills you can get the best result, but even without all the right tools, with your skills it can still result in something decent. Give all the right tools to someone who doesn’t know how to work them, and it goes wrong. That’s got nothing to do with the tools but everything with the one using them.

Basically you just changed a simple fact into a judgement. My comment on builds and skills was anything but a judgement. Don’t assume that anyone who prefers meta builds is an elitist who claims that those who don’t follow the meta are bad players. I know there are lots of them out there who do think that (hubris is still a very common human flaw, after all, and that’s just what it is) but I am not one of them.

Edit: spelling.

I don’t follow the meta, I find full dps builds uncomfortable but my reaction time is kind of slow, I fail at timing dodges and blocks… I main a tanky Necro in Knight gear and I’m in love with it. c: I think a build is strong if it has a healthy amount of offense and defense.

In group play, it’s usually just the most damage possible with minimum amount of sustain. This is because group play allows you to manipulate agro tables, so sustain is less of an issue.

In solo play, it’s not the case at all. When I theory craft a solo build with a class, I am trying to create some kind of composition that gives me a defensive rotation that can out last any champion or elite’s offensive rotation. Once I have that, then I start to layer on more damage to decrease the fight time.

In PvP, it’s much more complicated, because it’s a team event and what build I am trying to create is contextual to the role I am fulfilling on that team.

BTW the meta builds are usually made by the guild DnT.

Now, a strong build is one that

#1: Is coherent. You’d be surprised how many builds have random things in random place.

#2: Is capable of affecting change, particularly better than other builds that attempt the same thing. “Affecting change” is the universal way of saying that it can either do a lot of damage, put out sufficient enough heals, or hold aggro. Buffs/debuffs/conditions fall into this category as well.

In general, my builds are pseudo-meta. That is, they look like they’re meta builds at first glance, but closer inspection I’ve tweaked them for solo play. One of the issues of the meta is that the builds are always made operating under several assumptions:

#1: Boons and vulnerability are handled by other people around you.
#2: Your team is already full of other meta builds.
#3: Perfect play.
#4: Anything other than the champion is going to magical melt and pose no threat and/or be skipped.

Because of this, they favor unique and specific kinds of buffs, and damage tactics that don’t necessarily synergize well, but because buffs and conditions are already handled by “other people”, you go with them instead.

I, however, used to pug run dungeons with random people who would use completely random and unpredictable builds/tactics. Because of this, my builds are edited to have better self buffing and defensive options. I.E. I usually ran sword/pistol thief, because the weakness and blinds and cleave are actually really useful in a stack. Sure, I didn’t do uber single target DPS, but I certainly kept the team alive and cleaved down enemies that would’ve this random group of people.

But in general, yeah I favor max DPS. This isn’t an “I’m so skilled I can do it” kind of brag. Building for maximum damage is just plain better.

I should do more research. The thoughts in this thread are really different than what I expected and a lot less linear as well. I’m even more interested in solo play building versus group play and how this changes how people play in general. There might be more to the direction of this game than I originally thought there was.

DGraves: If you plan on solo play, I’d recommend turning on some music, sitting down, and taking a couple hours to examine what it is you might like in a character class, study all the skills and traits that class possesses, and see how you can make it work for you.

It sounds like a lot of work, and it can be, but in the end you can get an idea of what your preferences are, and by studying that character/class, you can easily figure out what sounds good for you/that class, and what doesn’t.

As an example, I’ll detail my Guardian, as he’s the first character in GW2 that I ever built a build for myself.

My Guardian was made with the intent of being able to play with a team, but also able to easily play solo if necessary. I run Power, Toughness, and Vitality. Which works for me because power is a primary attribute, so I hit fairly hard, but I also have just a little more soaking ability than some other stat builds. It also means that if I make a mistake, I have just a little more room to maybe bounce back from it, rather than being completely screwed.

Now, my weapon of choice is the Hammer. It hits fairly hard, has a mobility lock that can help me control light mobs with ease, as well as a knockback that, of course, is self explanatory.

However, the best part of my Hammer, is the Auto-attack, which on the 3rd strike creates a symbol that grants protection. That’s the first reason for why standing close to him is a good idea (melee DPS like warriors and thieves will like me muchly).

Now, at the time I made this guy up, the traits rework hadn’t been in effect yet, so the big hit for him was the trait Writ of Persistence, which makes the symbols larger, last longer, and heal allies. Reason #2 as to why standing near him is awesome xD

Also at the time, Pure of Voice, if I remember right, was a Major Trait rather than a Grandmaster. And I rolled shouts mainly for the survivability they granted not only to myself, but to everyone around me. Pure of Voice turns conditions on friendlies into boons/buffs. Which was great because if I timed my shouts right, which I needed to be doing anyway, anyone around me was almost literally condition-proof.

Now, I realize that, either now, or before, some of my facts may be skewed, it’s been a long while. And I no longer play my Guardian because I’ve grown bored of him. But the gist of it was, that any Melees near me lived longer, which meant much more damage, they got healed every 3rd strike, and my Guardian got the same treatment for himself, so 75% of the party benefited from being close and personal.

It didn’t always work, mind you, but more times than not I saved quite a few players from death by shouting in their ear, or throwing out one of my Virtues which were also traited to do things like heal or buff.

Too Long; Didn’t Read: With enough patience and knowledge of the game, you can make a build just for you that, with enough refinement, can turn a solo player into a hero, and a team player into a saint. Just takes time, and the knowing of what you like in a character and play-style preference.

There’s little to no build flexibility when you’re trying to build your character a certain way. For example, if you’re trying to build a condition damage based Revenant, there’s only really 1 path to go down towards (Mallyx/Herald with Mace/Axe as your main weapon set). If you’re trying to build outside of these parameters, your build generally just isn’t as strong or viable as “meta” builds.

That being said, you also have to be flexible in your build depending on the situation. You may want to slot in more condi clear if your enemy team is full of reapers and scrappers, or you might want to slot in some protection boon spam (or a different amulet) if your enemy team has a couple of thieves that might be hard to deal with. In WvW, you might want to swap up your food buffs depending on who you’re up against. In PvE… um… rotate skills better? Damage has never really mattered in PvE.

Brekknar.3567:

I feel that the Meta is simply a thing that limits us, and in order to be better players we all need to challenge the meta and create something that can match it, but is our own in design. The Meta is a rule, so break it

You should make builds that have a legitimate in game purpose, not just to be all hipster and rebel against the great tyranny of the Meta.

In PvE dungeon and fractals, for example, there is very little reason to ever deviate from high damage builds with minimum sustain, because the agro tables can be manipulated to spread the damage around all 5 party members, thus really negating any need for builds that focus on high healing and high toughness.

Effectively, making such a build is limiting you as a player, because you are just using it to facetank while contributing little to the group, instead of learning how to manipulate agro in order to play a high damage build.

DPS is always an issue with a build if it doesn’t do that you might as well lay down and pretend you’re dead. Though I’m saying this I don’t use these meta full dps builds except in raids where they are balanced to co-op with the other raid profession builds. I tend to create my own builds focusing on dps (direct/condi/hybrid) and with a hint of some defense from either traits or stats. I’m also not interested in having my toes up on every encounter so some mistakes will be made but I’ll survive those thanks to my personalized builds which are effective yet fun to play.

The answer depends on your playstyle.

MadRabbit.3179:

Brekknar.3567:

I feel that the Meta is simply a thing that limits us, and in order to be better players we all need to challenge the meta and create something that can match it, but is our own in design. The Meta is a rule, so break it

You should make builds that have a legitimate in game purpose, not just to be all hipster and rebel against the great tyranny of the Meta.

And I do just that. None of my builds follow a Meta, and they still produce fair results for myself and the people I happen to play with/around. I rebel against nothing but the limitations of people telling me I’m an idiot for not playing a certain way, or taking a certain skill, or a certain armor.

The Meta, believe it or not, produces this sort of behavior. I’ve met no one using a Meta who was of a gentle opinion. Each one that I’ve met had something to say about me, my playstyle, or the gear/skills/traits I’m using. And only a scant few were capable of applying a buffer before ramming their nose up my business.

I rebel in the name of fun and enjoyment. Others should too.