Guild Wars 2

vertical progress or horizontal progress

A loyal fanbase created by trust from the developers who understand what their aimed audience would like to see in the gem shop.

Xuro.5861:

A loyal fanbase created by trust from the developers who understand what their aimed audience would like to see in the gem shop.

This. And the game isn’t FTP its B2P with a cash shop. Cash shop games that aren’t P2W rely heavily on casuals. This new system is anti-casual since the new gear requires a huge time investment: skill doens’t make you get through the dungeons any faster, essences are random drops (RNG FTL), and to get rings you need to be level 10+ (community segregation).

Xuro.5861:

A loyal fanbase created by trust from the developers who understand what their aimed audience would like to see in the gem shop.

Quoted.

its not a matter of vertical or horizontal progression, But the players you are aiming for.
If you aim for both, you fail. , its like what to right and left, in the same moment.

Well I spent about $700 since launch until I got wind of these changes. Anet, NCSoft, and this Nexon will never get another cent from me!

I wonder if their new playerbase will be as generous with their cash as I was. I went out of my way to buy gems as I supported the lies they sold me in their manifesto and wanted a game along those lines to play for seven years or more like I did the original Guild Wars game.

Time to ask for a refund of all that money – for the game and the gems!

I don’t like being lied to, their marketers are running a bait-and-switch scam. I’ve already made formal complaints to the govt agencies who police business practices at state and federal level and I hope they get some nice big fines for their efforts to defraud me.

Xpiher.5209:

Xuro.5861:

A loyal fanbase created by trust from the developers who understand what their aimed audience would like to see in the gem shop.

This. And the game isn’t FTP its B2P with a cash shop. Cash shop games that aren’t P2W rely heavily on casuals. This new system is anti-casual since the new gear requires a huge time investment: skill doens’t make you get through the dungeons any faster, essences are random drops (RNG FTL), and to get rings you need to be level 10+ (community segregation).

It will be FTP if I don’t spend any more money into it.

Onshidesigns.1069:

Xpiher.5209:

Xuro.5861:

A loyal fanbase created by trust from the developers who understand what their aimed audience would like to see in the gem shop.

This. And the game isn’t FTP its B2P with a cash shop. Cash shop games that aren’t P2W rely heavily on casuals. This new system is anti-casual since the new gear requires a huge time investment: skill doens’t make you get through the dungeons any faster, essences are random drops (RNG FTL), and to get rings you need to be level 10+ (community segregation).

It will be FTP if I don’t spend any more money into it.

And shut down if no one spends money on it. The servers don’t work the same way they did in GW1.

It’s kinda interesting. B2P and F2P aren’t really too different in how they collect money over time.

There’s games with working F2P models. Some are terrible pay-to-win setups, and then you’ve got.. Dota2 and LoL and TF2. Pay money, get fancy hats. Thats uh, pretty much it.

Can’t tell me those 2 games aren’t successful. Can’t tell me those business models aren’t working well.

You don’t get people to give you money by making it painful if they do not. You get people to give you money by making them have fun and WANT to give you money.

I wonder how long before we see cash shop items of unbelievable numbers (stats) and limited duration :[

warmonkey.8013:

You don’t get people to give you money by making it painful if they do not. You get people to give you money by making them have fun and WANT to give you money.

Bulls-eye! And we were giving them money as a support to both the cause and their good work and for making a fun game.
This isn’t the case anymore and as many have stated “My wallet is closed from now on”.

Xuro.5861:

A loyal fanbase created by trust from the developers who understand what their aimed audience would like to see in the gem shop.

Things I would have paid cash (not gold) for gems to buy:

- more Gem Store skins for armor and weapons (pieces, not full sets)
- ALL skins should be available in combat (including sunglasses)
- mounts
- wardrobe slots

From a business perspective, I’d assume most of the paying “casual” customers don’t WANT to grind for things. Offer them desirable Gem Store items and they’ll buy them. If the first update had these items alone then ArenaNet would be rolling in real world cash from all of us.

What pays the bills? People buying vanity costumes, or random chests because they like gambling.

This is just speculation, but I figure that, with the way the gem store is set up, my impression is that “hardcore grinders” are less likely to spend real money for gems, because they can just spend in-game gold for gems. The person who’ll throw down 10 actual dollars for a cool Halloween costume is someone who doesn’t routinely farm up 10 gold.

Onshidesigns.1069:

vertical progress or horizontal progress

Well 7+ years of business with horizontal progression in GW shows that horizontal can work just fine.

In all cases: A playerbase that feel grateful and know they can trust the developer is a good starting point. As long as you maintain that trust you can pretty much go left/right, horizontal/vertical and still be successful, key point being: Maintain trust!

Without the trust any model will be a lot harder to make successful.

Worst case: Break previously established trust, split your community in two factions that sceam at eachother while you still avoid giving clear answers on future plans (progression in character levels + further stat-level increases) = Your business is now officially playing in “hardcore” mode.

The people who love the game will more likely support it by using the Cash Shop.

Many people have already replied in these forums about not only their cash shop purchases but their box purchases for friends and family. Guess what? Those individuals said they loved the “no gear progression” approach.

I have yet to find one post from someone who wanted vertical progression saying they will now spend money in the cash shop.

The above is anecdotal but may be an indicator of how wrong this change is, especially if it was done to generate more cash shop revenue.

ASP.8093:

What pays the bills? People buying vanity costumes, or random chests because they like gambling.

This is just speculation, but I figure that, with the way the gem store is set up, my impression is that “hardcore grinders” are less likely to spend real money for gems, because they can just spend in-game gold for gems. The person who’ll throw down 10 actual dollars for a cool Halloween costume is someone who doesn’t routinely farm up 10 gold.

Not necessarily true. I’m someone who enjoys farming and grinding (really liked running Plinx, was upset that it was nerfed), and almost everything I’ve gotten from the cash shop I’ve purchased with real money. I’m way more attached to my in-game gold and don’t mind dropping the real world stuff in the shop to support a game I like.

The main reason I don’t spend more in the cash shop is that there’s nothing I want to buy. A lot of the town clothes the NPCs wear I’d purchase in a heartbeat, and I really like the GW1 nostalgia armor skins, but what’s actually in there now isn’t exciting. I don’t have access to their data or anything, but I’d be shocked if goofy rabbit ear headbands that can’t even be worn in combat are making them any money. They said pre-launch that they wanted to make money by selling things people want to buy, but if they want that, they need to:

1) start updating the gem store more frequently, instead of just trickling in a tiny amount of thematic pieces when there’s a big update;

2) reconsider the idea of making town clothes only wearable out of combat, and at least offer in-combat versions for the standalone headgear (since we can already hide our helms, and there’s no reason we couldn’t wear a sailor cap or something if we’re already choosing to go without visible head armor);

3) stop relying so heavily on the gambling chests. The problem with the chests is that they’re a choice between gambling real money, and buying stuff directly on the TP with gold. People like me who don’t like RNG are always going to buy this stuff from other players, but I would have bought almost all of the chest-dropped Halloween skins directly from the gem store if they’d been available.

it’s weird. i bought this game up front. but it has the same cash shop model of the most abusive PWE f2p games i’ve had the displeasure of playing.

i was hoping they would epxand and improve upon the whole stated intention of end game and cash shop around cosmetics, i’d love to farm and spend money on more skins that i could more easily swap between.

i really felt in practice the transmutation method was too distructive to have any longevity. see i want to spend more money and time on getting lots of outfits, but i end up double dipping with identical stat allocation sets, it more than halves the value of my dollar. where as i can go back to tsw and spend less money on the sub and cash shop together, and get alot more outfits to play dress up with than i can do with my dollar in gw2.

so idk it’s tough you know? i had been debating with myself to get more stat sets for the remaining skins i wanted, and hope they brought out more, but i guess that is a moot point now.

This game wasn’t free to play.

But I’ll be fair and answer the question anyway, since with no sub they do need to continue to make money somehow:

We don’t know what makes them money. They don’t release those numbers to us. Such as what the average player spends in the shop, what the average player buys, what their research shows that players in other games buy and what game mechanics will make players spend more money.

We can make guesses and gather snippets of info from various places, but in the end, we are left in the dark.

This whole post and title seems like a threat to remind Anet about whose paying the bills. Really appreciated.

In this model, after launch (profits from which are largely used to pay for game development and required hardware) money is basically made in the cash stop.

If ArenaNet doesn’t have someone who is looking at what the players who spend the most money in the cash shop are doing in the game, GW2 is destined for financial ruin. They should be concentrating efforts on keeping those who spend the most in the cash shop happy in the game. Whether that is people who favor vertical or horizontal progression, we are not privy to that information. From experience in quite a few games with cash shops, I would guess one is more represented than the other in the amount they spend on cash purchases. My guess is moot. ArenaNet should know and if they fail to cater to the appropriate group, to put it bluntly, they’re just plain idiots.

It’s a Buy to Play game. So, the revenue starts at the retail purchase. Then Gem Store purchases, which IMO isn’t being fully developed at this point but still doing surprisingly well.

Lastly, major content expansions will have a purchase price to add to the revenue stream.

francisling.2987:

This whole post and title seems like a threat to remind Anet about whose paying the bills. Really appreciated.

But do we know who pays the bills?

If we assume for argument’s sake that the goal is now to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible we have no idea whether it is best for their bottom line to trade their target market (those of us who want only horizontal progression after exotics) for new/returning/discontented players who want vertical progression.

Even if there are more of us target players than vertical progression players and always will be, what matters isn’t the number of players in the game or what is said on this forum, what matters is who is spending the most in the cash shop.

If the assumption about making as much money as quickly as possible is actually fact, we have the answer to who spends more based on recent events, or at least who they think will spend more.

Since we will never get access to numbers like that, all we can do is look at new changes and extrapolate from there. Of course we can’t know for sure the full motives of the decision makers (long term profit? Short term? How much?) or how accurate their assessments of our spending habits are, so we’re still playing this guessing game pretty much in the dark.

I will make one (uneducated) guess about whoever is currently in charge: They aren’t interested in relying on player good will purchases (purchases made by players more to support the game than for the actual items themselves). Either they know for sure this won’t keep them afloat, or they aren’t willing to risk relying on that, or they believe they will make far more money in different ways.

Sorry for the speculative ramble, I’m just really interested in this subject.

Ferguson.2157:

Well I spent about $700 since launch until I got wind of these changes. Anet, NCSoft, and this Nexon will never get another cent from me!

I wonder if their new playerbase will be as generous with their cash as I was. I went out of my way to buy gems as I supported the lies they sold me in their manifesto and wanted a game along those lines to play for seven years or more like I did the original Guild Wars game.

Time to ask for a refund of all that money – for the game and the gems!

I don’t like being lied to, their marketers are running a bait-and-switch scam. I’ve already made formal complaints to the govt agencies who police business practices at state and federal level and I hope they get some nice big fines for their efforts to defraud me.

You’re the one that was so ….. to put 700 in the cashshop,and now ask for a refund ? Im wondering wth is wrong with some of you people,Really.

Corvindi.5734:

This game wasn’t free to play.

But I’ll be fair and answer the question anyway, since with no sub they do need to continue to make money somehow:

We don’t know what makes them money. They don’t release those numbers to us. Such as what the average player spends in the shop, what the average player buys, what their research shows that players in other games buy and what game mechanics will make players spend more money.

We can make guesses and gather snippets of info from various places, but in the end, we are left in the dark.

I already made a comment on why I called it FTP.

Seems like most people think horizontal progress focused new content and gem store sales is what pays Areananet’s bills. As long as the game is not PTW.

Things like Dgn Token boosters, or cool looking new armor and weapon skins will be hot sellers.

All those are horizontal progression.

In fact, me thinks that Dgn Token boosters will sell like hot cakes.

White Knights saying “it’s b2p not f2p!!!” – the whole point in making an MMO is to make money in the long run.

They need continuous income to support costs of servers, staff and other various things.

If you weren’t such super ultra die hard blind fans you’d know those basic facts.

And that’s why the OP asks what pays the bills.

People really like being unique. I’m surprised ArenaNet has been slacking on appearance gear for sell in the GemShop.

Or, you know, expansion packs that are worth it to buy.

That could never work though…

stayBlind.7849:

Or, you know, expansion packs that are worth it to buy.

That could never work though…

Expansion packs that are worth buying must be accessible to all level 80s. If they are only for players with Ascended items, thats lost gem store sales.

That’s why I think infusions should be on all Exotics. And Exotic stats should be top tier.

Ferguson.2157:

Well I spent about $700 since launch until I got wind of these changes. Anet, NCSoft, and this Nexon will never get another cent from me!

I wonder if their new playerbase will be as generous with their cash as I was. I went out of my way to buy gems as I supported the lies they sold me in their manifesto and wanted a game along those lines to play for seven years or more like I did the original Guild Wars game.

Time to ask for a refund of all that money – for the game and the gems!

I don’t like being lied to, their marketers are running a bait-and-switch scam. I’ve already made formal complaints to the govt agencies who police business practices at state and federal level and I hope they get some nice big fines for their efforts to defraud me.

Wait, what happened with Nexon?

Generally speaking, I would say a playerbase without knives sticking out of their backs.

Vertical progress seems to require a monthly fee to pay the bills.
Horizontal progress requires new content everyone can enjoy with a good cash shop.

If you have not seen this, watch it:Power Creep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

This game isn’t “Free to play”. Just pointing that out. You had to buy the game to play, even the beta…

Onshidesigns.1069:

stayBlind.7849:

Or, you know, expansion packs that are worth it to buy.

That could never work though…

Expansion packs that are worth buying must be accessible to all level 80s. If they are only for players with Ascended items, thats lost gem store sales.

That’s why I think infusions should be on all Exotics. And Exotic stats should be top tier.

Exactly what this man said. Kill the ascended items and make the infusions like they were in GW1, an extra ‘stat’ that gets slapped onto armor which doesn’t actually effect combat effectiveness, only prevents something from massively decreasing it.

dalendria.3762:

The people who love the game will more likely support it by using the Cash Shop.

I was about to support the game (again), but all that I get was this knife in my back.

It’s all about trust.

I’ve decided to buy 800 Gems per month whether I need them or not. I’m having super fun with the game, and have no problem giving them $10 per month to show my support.

Unknown.2796:

This game isn’t “Free to play”. Just pointing that out. You had to buy the game to play, even the beta…

I used FTP in the title, so people will think cash shops are what pays the bills. FTP is associated with cash shops or PTW.

eisberg.2379:

I’ve decided to buy 800 Gems per month whether I need them or not. I’m having super fun with the game, and have no problem giving them $10 per month to show my support.

Finding Ascended items to transmute skins is not going to be easy.

2 million copies of 60 $ is a good start to pay some bills.
Because, as mentioned over and over: this is NOT F2P. It is Buy to play (B2P).

And beyond that an overly pushed gem shop should cover the rest.

For a game only 3 months old, I would guess it hasn’t done bad financially so far.
Between the initial sales, the gems, the Haloween sellings…

No idea how that summs out for the costs and the future plans, but no one can argue that they didn’t make quite a lot of money so far.

Hiring some staff could be an idea

I put all of this here to show that they don’t really need either vertical or horizontal progression yet. Not to cover costs I think.
So I would have expected for them to wait a bit longer before introducing this…

As for horizontal progression: there is a lot more than ‘skins’.
They could offer a world to unlock in terms of mounts, houses, pets, city items not for combat, spell effects, etc…

So even when they arrive at the point they need money, there is no fixed choice what would be best: vertical or horizontal progression.
Both can work IF you want them to work.

I still maintain that adding horizontal progression in the form of period updates will still encourage game and gem sales for a longer, more sustainable length of time than vertical progression.