Guild Wars 2

It sickens me that people are celebrating a lack meaningful character progression in RPG games for the sake of “fairness” and going as far as calling it “the way of the future.”

In the meantime aka the way of the present, 99 out of 100 online RPG games fizzle out in the first year due to being unsustainable in their content and progression.

Vlaxitov.5693:

It sickens me that people are celebrating a lack meaningful character progression in RPG games for the sake of “fairness” and going as far as calling it “the way of the future.”

In the meantime aka the way of the present, 99 out of 100 online RPG games fizzle out in the first year due to being unsustainable in their content and progression.

I agree to an extent. The traditional RPG meta does not condone the formula that you see in GW2. But as I have said in some other threads and earlier in this thread, I don’t think that is a bad thing. It just means that GW2 isn’t the exact same genre as the other MMORPGs. It is very similar, but the difference between horizontal progression and vertical progression set it apart. For better or for worse is up to the player to decide. Strictly based on the definition and tradition of RPGs, it doesn’t fit, but ANet doesn’t really want it to fit – so there really isn’t a problem. If the player takes issue with the new formula presented in this game, they have the option to take a more traditional approach with other games.

Phaze Delta One.2834:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t your typical MMO. Why is this still a surprise to some people? If having no gear progression makes people upset, maybe they should go play a different game.

sighs happily

And that is why I have found a new game. Yay for PROGRESSION!
This game is COMPLETELY free, and 100% superior to GW2 in all regards. (psst. it’s not WoW. I won’t play that game or anything in SoE’s stable even if the company PAID me)

I am happy, and while I hope GW2 will improve, and eventually bring me back, there is NOTHING for me to do here.

I think I will go dump my money in the cash shop for this new game. At least I know what I put my money towards will be what I get, not some random RNG full of ‘tonics’ that change me into a…bird….

sighs and storms off

“Gear progression is only an endgame if WoW was your first MMO.
My endgame is PvP with rewards to keep improving your character. they have WvW, now they just need the reward system. Im not talking about gear, im talking about stats increases, skills and abilities, chance to crit, hitpoints, ect….”

And whats the gear improves ? Length of ur hair and nails?

If meaningful character progression means getting better gear so I don’t need to be skillful to beat other players then good riddance to ‘progression.’ GW has a set model where you get a level playing field (relatively in GW2) and if you want to beat someone else you better actually be better than them, not just have better gear.

While you guys can wonder off to find a game that makes you a stronger player because you have better gear, I’ll stick around here where I can smack down someone who may play longer hours but has little ability to adapt and play well.

GrimShade.8091:

If meaningful character progression means getting better gear so I don’t need to be skillful to beat other players then good riddance to ‘progression.’ GW has a set model where you get a level playing field (relatively in GW2) and if you want to beat someone else you better actually be better than them, not just have better gear.

While you guys can wonder off to find a game that makes you a stronger player because you have better gear, I’ll stick around here where I can smack down someone who may play longer hours but has little ability to adapt and play well.

In the sense of what it means to actually play an RPG, the traditional models actually support gear trumping skill if the margins are large enough. If you look at it from an RPG or Role Playing Game stand point (I emphasize only to remind people what the meaning of the abbreviation is) the hero/character/player who is the “oldest” (most time played) is the likeliest candidate to beat the newcomers. Not always the case, but in most cases it is true.

That hero, if you will, has spent more time honing his skills and acquiring his gear, and is therefore more seasoned than some newcomer who picks up a sword and shield and happens to be good at fighting. That new guy can still win, and people will be impressed when he does, but he is inherently at a disadvantage.

GW2 is not true to its RPG claiming title by those standards. Nothing wrong with that, but the fact remains that GW2 is much less an RPG than traditional styled games. In those games, gear is very much a reflection of your character progression. Nothing wrong with that either.

How am I supposed to get better if explore mode is cheese-fest? I don’t mean taking my death and graveyard rushing back… I can usually solo a boss long enough for folks to do that. Really aside from the Fire Golem phase of the Kudo fight, nothing else has really been all that challenging aside from maybe a few trash mob encounters.

There’s actually little difference between a lot of the boss fights, just different flavors of strafing/dodging and punishing you for not doing the evading correctly. Aside from the Melandru Priest, I don’t recall ever really having to play outside the box with my characters. Sure, other MMOs have there “rinse and repeat” flavors, but they usually take awhile to execute properly. Yes you want to make it casual friendly, but that shouldn’t surrender offering any such challenge.

Animus.6073:

GW2 is not true to its RPG claiming title by those standards. Nothing wrong with that, but the fact remains that GW2 is much less an RPG than traditional styled games. In those games, gear is very much a reflection of your character progression. Nothing wrong with that either.

I agree with your definition of RPG, but just want to say, there’s no reason gear needs to be part of that equation. Nice gear is nice, but when my character is a master swordsman, I’d like to believe that they’ll still do pretty well, with any half-decent sword. Not be totally dependent on their fancy equipment.

By those same RPG standards the enemies you fight are stupid enough to go after the guy who they can’t kill. They completely ignore the guys they can kill and are doing more damage. They are also stupid enough to fall for a taunt, which will supposedly enrage them enough to attack the guy who actually damages them when they hit him. This is another thing GW ‘fixed.’

I don’t consider the fact that a game has inherent stupidity a good quality of an RPG. Just because old games did it that way doesn’t mean we need to continue. We can all strap on the same armor and weapons and whoever is better or luckier that day will be the winner. That’s more in line of the RPG I want to play.

Im just stating my endgame. i came from DAOC where after max level you could still improve your character y ranks, after time they became few and far inbetween but you were always improving, even after years. and bets part was 99.999% never hit the cap.

Gear has problems, it just sets another cap you will hit and get bored, in alot of cases teh better gear doesnt have the stats you want. gear systems like this also ruin the whole point of being a crafter. why spend time crafting when you cant make stuff as good as teh reward gear.

Someone mentioned Dark Souls earlier, so I’ll use it like an example too. Dark Souls is so successful because it heavily relies on progression. While there definitely is gear/stat progression in that game, skill progression plays an even more important part. It feels rewarding to take down that enemy that kept on killing you. It feels rewarding to get past a boss and unlock another chunk of the game world. It feels rewarding to pick up a dropped magic stone off of the corpse of said boss and use it to enhance your weapon. That, I think, is the essence of progression: Through effort (either skill or time), proving yourself worthy of being able to access new parts of the game. That feels rewarding. Beating a very difficult boss feels rewarding. Getting unique loot (either in stats or cosmetics!) for your effort feels rewarding. GW2 brings none of that to the table. You get access to every part of the game as long as you meet the laughably easy to attain level requirement. Bosses are zerg rushes. Dungeons are graveyard rushes. There is no challenge, and there is no reward. It feels like the whole game is the starting area, with the bulk of the game left off.

GrimShade.8091:

By those same RPG standards the enemies you fight are stupid enough to go after the guy who they can’t kill. They completely ignore the guys they can kill and are doing more damage. They are also stupid enough to fall for a taunt, which will supposedly enrage them enough to attack the guy who actually damages them when they hit him. This is another thing GW ‘fixed.’

I don’t consider the fact that a game has inherent stupidity a good quality of an RPG. Just because old games did it that way doesn’t mean we need to continue. We can all strap on the same armor and weapons and whoever is better or luckier that day will be the winner. That’s more in line of the RPG I want to play.

Another common fallacy is that hitting “taunt” in an RPG literally means that if you were that character, you would be taunting the enemy and making them blind to the real dangers posed to them. There has to be a little suspension of disbelief. Your character is not literally flipping the monster the bird and then holding its attention. The tank is grabbing the attention of the monster by forceful means, even if not through the highest damage. Even though you know that your teammates do more damage than you do, would the monster inherently know that? Maybe in some cases, but definitely not all. A well placed blow to the head from a mace would certainly do more damage than a glancing blow from a greatsword.

For the sake of promoting balance and preserving roles, RPGs require that you suspend your disbelief a little bit. Even in GW2, any boss you fight has a sporadic “aggro table.” A boss downs someone and then runs off to hit someone else while teammates pick the downed person back up. That doesn’t sound too realistic to me. The boss would down them and pummel them into the ground. If you are willing to suspend your disbelief for GW2, then why not for other MMORPGs. Reeks of bias in my opinion.

Animus.6073:

In the sense of what it means to actually play an RPG, the traditional models actually support gear trumping skill if the margins are large enough. If you look at it from an RPG or Role Playing Game stand point (I emphasize only to remind people what the meaning of the abbreviation is) the hero/character/player who is the “oldest” (most time played) is the likeliest candidate to beat the newcomers. Not always the case, but in most cases it is true.

What? RP (role playing) is acting out a character. It has absolutely nothing to do with levels or the amount of time spent playing a character. Making it a game involves scenarios to solve, etc. Toss in 100+ people and it’s massively multiplayer. Do that online and bam, you have a MMORPG. Notice that nowhere does that imply that you’ll loot, level or anything of the sort? Hell, it would be an MMORPG about ants in an ant hill and it would still apply. Not sure how awesome gathering crap for the mound would be… over and over doing the same gathering quest.

pandemos.3497:

Animus.6073:

In the sense of what it means to actually play an RPG, the traditional models actually support gear trumping skill if the margins are large enough. If you look at it from an RPG or Role Playing Game stand point (I emphasize only to remind people what the meaning of the abbreviation is) the hero/character/player who is the “oldest” (most time played) is the likeliest candidate to beat the newcomers. Not always the case, but in most cases it is true.

What? RP (role playing) is acting out a character. It has absolutely nothing to do with levels or the amount of time spent playing a character. Making it a game involves scenarios to solve, etc. Toss in 100+ people and it’s massively multiplayer. Do that online and bam, you have a MMORPG. Notice that nowhere does that imply that you’ll loot, level or anything of the sort? Hell, it would be an MMORPG about ants in an ant hill and it would still apply. Not sure how awesome gathering crap for the mound would be… over and over doing the same gathering quest.

Semantics are not arguments. If you split hairs like that, it is obvious that I cannot agree or refute your claims. An established meta has become prevalent in the RPG genre. That meta defines the genre. GW2 goes outside of that meta to an extent. Like I said, nothing is wrong with that, but it cannot be passed off as the exact same type of game. A sub-genre would be more accurate. Horizontal or Vertical MMORPG, if you will.

I would be having loads more fun ‘exploring’ if the content was actually solo-able.

I can’t tell you how many events I have stumbled upon, and would of had fun doing if they could actually be completed. But if nobody else is around many of the level 80 events are just impossible to solo, all because of the terrible respawn rates.

Speaking of semantics, we’re talking about fundamental systems here which can transcend genre. If we were talking about match making systems, are we not allowed to use FPS games with good match making because they’re FPS’s? A good idea is a good idea… a great idea is learning from good ideas.

Don’t think that’s true, look at smartphones and wonder what it would be like now if the developers stuck to just the phone aspect because “it’s a cellphone so we can’t compare it to anything other than other cellphones”. What did they look at to develop smartphones? Computers… cause basically a smartphone is that (but can also make calls as well).

Animus.6073:

For the sake of promoting balance and preserving roles, RPGs require that you suspend your disbelief a little bit. Even in GW2, any boss you fight has a sporadic “aggro table.” A boss downs someone and then runs off to hit someone else while teammates pick the downed person back up. That doesn’t sound too realistic to me. The boss would down them and pummel them into the ground. If you are willing to suspend your disbelief for GW2, then why not for other MMORPGs. Reeks of bias in my opinion.

So I have a taunt skill that encourages a monster to pay attention to me, or I have binding blades that forces the monster to stay near me even though it may not want to pay attention to me. You are dam right this reeks of bias, I am biased the towards system that makes more sense to me and perhaps spent a bit more time ‘filling in the gaps.’ Rather than telling me to just imagine that skill X pulled the monsters to you, it actually does.

Now I’ll fully admit at this point that this type of CC is now working right. Standard groups of monsters are too easily run over by multiple players thus I don’t need to tactically use CC. Then it doesn’t work on Bosses. I truly hope they do something about this…

As to preserving balance, I don’t see how a taunt system of tank and spank has any balance. The glass cannons are able to deliver higher damage because they go down real easy. But we then put in a system to ensure they aren’t targeted thus they don’t ‘go down.’ I really preferred the GW1 system on this, the glass cannons went down easy and wekittengeted first. The teams had to position properly and body block properly if they wanted to keep the back line safe.

I read the original post multiple times and all i can really gleen from it is that you think every game should be a wow clone.

well there is a reason most wow clones fail, and that is because if people wanted to play wow, they would go play wow.

i am personally glad for a mmo style game with an end game focused on pvp where i can actually compete without sacrificing my life over it.

if i wanted to play a wow style game, i would play wow.

thats why i am here.

GrimShade.8091:

Animus.6073:

For the sake of promoting balance and preserving roles, RPGs require that you suspend your disbelief a little bit. Even in GW2, any boss you fight has a sporadic “aggro table.” A boss downs someone and then runs off to hit someone else while teammates pick the downed person back up. That doesn’t sound too realistic to me. The boss would down them and pummel them into the ground. If you are willing to suspend your disbelief for GW2, then why not for other MMORPGs. Reeks of bias in my opinion.

So I have a taunt skill that encourages a monster to pay attention to me, or I have binding blades that forces the monster to stay near me even though it may not want to pay attention to me. You are dam right this reeks of bias, I am biased the towards system that makes more sense to me and perhaps spent a bit more time ‘filling in the gaps.’ Rather than telling me to just imagine that skill X pulled the monsters to you, it actually does.

Now I’ll fully admit at this point that this type of CC is now working right. Standard groups of monsters are too easily run over by multiple players thus I don’t need to tactically use CC. Then it doesn’t work on Bosses. I truly hope they do something about this…

Death Knight Death Grip? Don’t know if you played WoW or not, but just in case you didn’t, this ability literally pulled a monster to you and served as a taunt. I see you also completely ignored my reference to aggro tables and bosses not pounding downed characters until they were good and dead. You reek even more of bias now than I originally presumed.

Animus.6073:

I see you also completely ignored my reference to aggro tables and bosses not pounding downed characters until they were good and dead. You reek even more of bias now than I originally presumed.

Yes I did forget to ask where you are playing. I always get beat down by the boss that downed me unless I do something to actively lose agro like I can do on my thief. I’d love to start playing in area’s where I do get to rez myself before getting downed.

GrimShade.8091:

Animus.6073:

I see you also completely ignored my reference to aggro tables and bosses not pounding downed characters until they were good and dead. You reek even more of bias now than I originally presumed.

Yes I did forget to ask where you are playing. I always get beat down by the boss that downed me unless I do something to actively lose agro like I can do on my thief. I’d love to start playing in area’s where I do get to rez myself before getting downed.

You are now confusing the argument and yourself. You are talking about a group, not solo play. Your team picks you up, you do not get up on your own. It happens in just about every single boss encounter in this game if you get downed. If you are dying after getting downed in a boss fight, it is either a wipe or your team is playing rather poorly, or both now that i think about it.

Problem is, Anet didn’ hide the fact that this wasn’ gonna be like every other MMO. They told us there wasn’ gonna be a l33t g34r grind for teh haxor lootz, it ain’ their fault if people didn’ listen. Allota people what came ta this game were countin’ on it not bein’ like every other mmorpg; no loot race ta pown noobs, no reason ta grief, no countin’ gear points in yer endless grind ta nowhere, and no trinity. That’s what brought ‘em in; it’s what brought me in.

So, people lookin’ for the same ole same, they got two choices … either they leave, or they adapt. Me, I’d like ta see the second so we can keep on spreadin’ the love.

@Jack of Tears:

Problem is, you guys just aren’t listening: Progression == Gear is not always true. (See my post above). While ArenaNet did state there isn’t going to be a gear treadmill, they never stated there won’t be any character progression. A lot of players believed that ArenaNet would compensate for the removal of the gear treadmill with some brilliant new idea, which in the end, they didn’t even attempt to do. What I want are tiers of challenge. Right now, the whole PvE world feels like one big starter area. All the content is the same difficulty level. Dungeons are the second tier of difficulty, but not that much higher. That is great for sandbox MMO’s, where that void is filled up by in-world PvP, guild territories, and political systems, but does not work for a themepark MMO very well.

HEHO.2109:

“Gear progression is only an endgame if WoW was your first MMO.
My endgame is PvP with rewards to keep improving your character. they have WvW, now they just need the reward system. Im not talking about gear, im talking about stats increases, skills and abilities, chance to crit, hitpoints, ect….”

And whats the gear improves ? Length of ur hair and nails?

As veteran WoW player I can tell you that I did not care about gear progression, after such long time played I didn’t need the gear to perform on a decent level. Also, I was mainly a pvp player, I didn’t need a gear or rewards there either because it was fun. I have made a 50k hk and I would made even more but I have often been switching characters. Honestly? It was just fun, here pvp is crap. Total crap. They replaced world pvp with chaotic WvWvW, sPvP has only one mode (capture and def) maps are too small for 15vs15 and don’t even get me started about class balance. A game in wnich single player has no hard cc chain or stuff like that anything that is slightly better than anything else completly wrecks people.

I could write a lot more of this trash-talk but I am just going to end this and tell you that – I got disappointed and I regret buying this game. Probably I will just finish my personal story and go back to WoW.

lacrimstein.5603:

@Jack of Tears:

Problem is, you guys just aren’t listening: Progression == Gear is not always true. (See my post above). While ArenaNet did state there isn’t going to be a gear treadmill, they never stated there won’t be any character progression. A lot of players believed that ArenaNet would compensate for the removal of the gear treadmill with some brilliant new idea, which in the end, they didn’t even attempt to do.

Are people not listening? Or not believing it? Maybe they think its just some fringe element that isn’t talking about gear? Or maybe just not reading follow-up posts? Why does this discussion go in the same circle over and over?