What's the point in having levels?

What's the point in having levels?

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

please read the whole thing before you flame

It appears that the point to the design is to have everyone playing all over. Why not just have a starter area and then your fully leveled once you play through? You get out and then play all over. Different rewards and different levels are preventing that.

I thought the idea was “no grind play how you like” and then you put 80 levels in? Why not then just do the 20 levels like in GW1? The same can be said about gathering materials. It routes the player into specific areas.

I won’t lie, I am not a fan of this system, I like rewards. Clearly, you guys don’t get that. In lieu of that, homogonize everything and let people just go wherever. I mean, you are downleveling everyone anyway. What is the point?

(edited by SHM.7628)

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Posted by: Red Falcon.8257

Red Falcon.8257

They wanted it this way and it’s not like they’re going to scrap the whole for no benefit at all.

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Posted by: wookie slayer.4259

wookie slayer.4259

The only real reason for levels is to give a sense of progression and gating so you can’t just go everywhere at the beginning. In the early levels it also servers to hold skills back so people arnt overwhelmed.

But yes this game could be levelless and would not make a huge difference. I would prefer levels and stated gear progression as I like progression alot. But that’s a opinion.

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Posted by: Polluxo.4967

Polluxo.4967

Because the first thing MMO-conditioned players are going to ask is, “how many levels are there?” And some of them will judge the game based on the amount of levels.

They didn’t do it to reinforce their ideal of the game, it’s simply a genius marketing ploy.

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Posted by: Natjur.4017

Natjur.4017

The higher levels give higher rewards, if anyone after a few mins where ‘max’ level, they would all move to the end zones and the middle zones would never get used.

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Posted by: pandemos.3497

pandemos.3497

Levels help to ease people into their skillsets and gate content. Even the most open sandbox games use different mechanisms to help direct players… levels or not.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

They wanted it this way and it’s not like they’re going to scrap the whole for no benefit at all.

I just don’t think the system works as they intended it to.

This game is not about rewards anyway. (look at DR) Forcing someone to get and stay in an area seems obsurd. Whether its forcing them with higher Karma or with XP for leveling.

Do you understand that I am not really an advocate for this? I’m just saying if you want everyone all over then make everything uniform.

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Posted by: Painking.4703

Painking.4703

If the game didn’t have levels, you’d have alot of players simply not knowing what to do, because there’s -so- much to do. A lot of people that are turned off of minecraft cite this as a reason, having absolutely no pre-set goals leaves players scratching their heads in what should be done next. Not to mention if a new player wanted to go right to Orr and started complaning about the difficulty, why is it so much harder of an area if the whole game is the same?

We all need a sense of progression and leveling does that for us. Everyone likes to see the numbers get higher, that little flash of light that occurs, that statement of “I leveled up” every race has, it’s a gratifying experience.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

The higher levels give higher rewards, if anyone after a few mins where ‘max’ level, they would all move to the end zones and the middle zones would never get used.

The whole point was make the rewards uniform. If the rewards were the same, wouldn’t you go all over? Added bonus, you can just scrap DR.

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Posted by: Rise.9702

Rise.9702

If the game didn’t have levels, you’d have alot of players simply not knowing what to do, because there’s -so- much to do. A lot of people that are turned off of minecraft cite this as a reason, having absolutely no pre-set goals leaves players scratching their heads in what should be done next. Not to mention if a new player wanted to go right to Orr and started complaning about the difficulty, why is it so much harder of an area if the whole game is the same?

We all need a sense of progression and leveling does that for us. Everyone likes to see the numbers get higher, that little flash of light that occurs, that statement of “I leveled up” every race has, it’s a gratifying experience.

I like the feeling of leveling up. Also, leveling up gets you a skill and trait point. Also it keeps you intact on where you should and shouldn’t go. I would be lost if I had no levels and then go over to a tougher opponent and not knowing what level he was then die lol then try and find an easier one.

You sir are a Scholar and Gentlekitten.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

The only real reason for levels is to give a sense of progression and gating so you can’t just go everywhere at the beginning. In the early levels it also servers to hold skills back so people arnt overwhelmed.

But yes this game could be levelless and would not make a huge difference. I would prefer levels and stated gear progression as I like progression alot. But that’s a opinion.

Progression? I don’t get a sense of progression with this game anyway. I am down leveled., my rewards diminish. Level is just a pointless .number in this game. There were lots of DE’s in the midrange that i just couldn’t do because I was alone in the map.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

If the game didn’t have levels, you’d have alot of players simply not knowing what to do, because there’s -so- much to do. A lot of people that are turned off of minecraft cite this as a reason, having absolutely no pre-set goals leaves players scratching their heads in what should be done next. Not to mention if a new player wanted to go right to Orr and started complaning about the difficulty, why is it so much harder of an area if the whole game is the same?

We all need a sense of progression and leveling does that for us. Everyone likes to see the numbers get higher, that little flash of light that occurs, that statement of “I leveled up” every race has, it’s a gratifying experience.

I like the feeling of leveling up. Also, leveling up gets you a skill and trait point. Also it keeps you intact on where you should and shouldn’t go. I would be lost if I had no levels and then go over to a tougher opponent and not knowing what level he was then die lol then try and find an easier one.

Even if you are not for level elimination, they could be greatly reduced. You can get over the learning curve in the starter areas then just play all over. Its essentially like that at level 80 anyway. They downlevel you to the level.

I am just not seeing the point to an 80 level grind with this system.

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Posted by: Raven Paradox.1860

Raven Paradox.1860

It’s really all about progression. I hate leveling to the point where it’s “aww I just want to be max lvl on this toon I don’t want to spend countless hours playing it”, but it’s for progression. Even when downleveled you still have that reward for being 80. Being 80 in WvW gives you an extreme advantage (well, nowadays its an extreme disadvantage if you aren’t 80) and you have your traits to use.

The most common complaint I heard about GW1 after playing for 5 years was “omg only 20 lvls!?!”. It was never about being instance based or any of the other “problems” with Guild Wars. It was the level 20 cap. It’s fine at 80. It WILL NOT be raised anymore in future expansions. That’s what’s great about the downlevel. They can release more lowbie zones and you can play them at level 80 and still participate without horribly ruining events.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

Because the first thing MMO-conditioned players are going to ask is, “how many levels are there?” And some of them will judge the game based on the amount of levels.

They didn’t do it to reinforce their ideal of the game, it’s simply a genius marketing ploy.

While I see what you are saying. I just think their system is broken.

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Posted by: pandemos.3497

pandemos.3497

A lot of people that are turned off of minecraft cite this as a reason, having absolutely no pre-set goals leaves players scratching their heads in what should be done next.

That’s funny because minecraft was what I was thinking about regarding gated content for sandbox games… iron → diamonds → obisian → nether.

Levels just as fuel for enchanting.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

It’s really all about progression. I hate leveling to the point where it’s “aww I just want to be max lvl on this toon I don’t want to spend countless hours playing it”, but it’s for progression. Even when downleveled you still have that reward for being 80. Being 80 in WvW gives you an extreme advantage (well, nowadays its an extreme disadvantage if you aren’t 80) and you have your traits to use.

Honestly, That is how I felt with my 80 warrior. Let me just get there and get my gear and I’m done. I never felt progressed because of downleveling and diminishing rewards.

I just feel you can do with a few levels what they are doing with 80 (given this system) you can master your weapons and unlock traits /skill points as you go.

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Posted by: pandemos.3497

pandemos.3497

Progression? I don’t get a sense of progression with this game anyway. I am down leveled., my rewards diminish. Level is just a pointless .number in this game. There were lots of DE’s in the midrange that i just couldn’t do because I was alone in the map.

Are you level 80? with full exotics? because my character is orders of magnitude more powerful than when I initially created it, to the point that I felt bad doing an event in queensdale similar to hitting rifts outside of Meridian at max level. I was even thinking I might try the fire elemental again!

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Posted by: Azjenco.9425

Azjenco.9425

I remember vaguely that someone at ANet mentioned they initially discussed whether or not to include levels in the game. But in the end they did decide to do so, obviously.

I think they game could have been interesting without “levels”. Sure, you’d still accumulate XP, and ding to receive skill points and trait point. I guess the major stat improvements would have been through traits then.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

Progression? I don’t get a sense of progression with this game anyway. I am down leveled., my rewards diminish. Level is just a pointless .number in this game. There were lots of DE’s in the midrange that i just couldn’t do because I was alone in the map.

Are you level 80? with full exotics? because my character is orders of magnitude more powerful than when I initially created it, to the point that I felt bad doing an event in queensdale similar to hitting rifts outside of Meridian at max level. I was even thinking I might try the fire elemental again!

My main is level 80 in full exotics. Sure, I’m overpowered the starter areas like queensdale. There’s no real reason to go there anyway. They are out of the way and the rewards are not worth it anyway.

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Posted by: Damage Inc.5736

Damage Inc.5736

Someone is new to RPG’s lmao.
I mean seriously?

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Posted by: lothefallen.7081

lothefallen.7081

please read the whole thing before you flame

It appears that the point to the design is to have everyone playing all over. Why not just have a starter area and then your fully leveled once you play through? You get out and then play all over. Different rewards and different levels are preventing that.

I thought the idea was “no grind play how you like” and then you put 80 levels in? Why not then just do the 20 levels like in GW1? The same can be said about gathering materials. It routes the player into specific areas.

I won’t lie, I am not a fan of this system, I like rewards. Clearly, you guys don’t get that. In lieu of that, homogonize everything and let people just go wherever. I mean, you are downleveling everyone anyway. What is the point?

The levels are an arbitrary design mechanic to section off content. They are a carrot on a stick to the almost non-existent progression. Since there is very little progression or solid character building, they serve as a number to make players of traditional MMOs feel like the content is structured and that they are progressing. In reality, it’s just a redundant number to compliment the design of an MMO rather than a CRPG like GW1. A lot of design decisions in this game, like gutting the team strategy, roles, and solid character building also don’t make a lot of sense.


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Posted by: Khronus.8370

Khronus.8370

There isn’t a grind in this game. Go any direction and you will find something to do. I literally walked in any direction that looked cool and I ended up hitting 80 and eventually world completing by following the idea of doing whatever I wanted. This game is nearly perfect. Don’t cry about one of the simplest mechanics in this game please.

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Posted by: yarn.3427

yarn.3427

There is a grind in this game- grinding to 80 and grinding for the gear with stats you want and for every character. The difference between this and a typical MMO is that its shorter and you dont have to keep replacing your gear. This is of course only about mandatory grind, dungeon sets, legendary’s etc are a massive grind-fest.

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

I actually really like the way they gated/scaffolded the 1-79 part of the game. Leveling never felt slow or difficult, and did feel like a progression — from helping farmers against bandits, off to the frontier, and then to the front lines of the battle against death and dragons.

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Posted by: Kichwas.7152

Kichwas.7152

I’ve met countless people who refused to play GW1 because it only had 20 levels.

It doesn’t matter that both games technically have unlimited levels – every so many XP you get something. And that technically both games have levels that are meaningless past a fairly early point…

People want that number over their heads, and want it to be big…

So we have it.

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Justice And Honor – Tarnished Coast.

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Posted by: Rufus Shinra.2351

Rufus Shinra.2351

I played GW1 for 7 years and loved it. I also loved the fact that there was only 20 levels and you didn’t have to grind to max level in order to get maximum attributes points.

They could do it in GW2. They keep 2 zones per race with progressive leveling and then you hit max lvl. You can then enjoy your character at maximum, messing with traits depending on the zone you’re going into and the play style you like.

What’s the point of getting all the traits points at 80 when there’s nothing more to do than farming…

The sad part is that it’ll never happen :P

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Posted by: Phy.2913

Phy.2913

I dislike leveling personally. In traditional MMO’s the game begins at max level. Even though GW has down a good job getting rid of this, it’s still there to an extent.

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Posted by: Treason.8417

Treason.8417

For a long time they had upscaling, which leveled your character up to the zone you’re in. I still don’t know why they took it out.

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Posted by: sixfeetunder.6508

sixfeetunder.6508

The higher levels give higher rewards, if anyone after a few mins where ‘max’ level, they would all move to the end zones and the middle zones would never get used.

The whole point was make the rewards uniform. If the rewards were the same, wouldn’t you go all over? Added bonus, you can just scrap DR.

ironicaly at some point they are the same rewards. Ive have had the same multiple items drop from the pack of monsters i killed in 1 spot. Greens and blues too.

I agree witht he op..whats the point when all you do in the end is pvp on this game and when you join at lvl2 you are 80 in the zone with all traits and skills lol. Ontop of that you get free gear and weapons in the pvp zones lol.

The pve aspect of this game is pretty kitten boring.

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Posted by: Raging Bull.5048

Raging Bull.5048

I’ve wondered the same thing so many times too, OP. I don’t see the point in even having levels, and I DO NOT like the system they’re using.

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Posted by: yarn.3427

yarn.3427

If they did so happen to remove or somehow negate levels I believe it could add to the replayability of the game. The reason: you can play all content with all classes, combat itself is also in big need of an overhaul but you’ll be able to play everything instead of one locked in template without grinding out another character. Unfortunately levels are central to PvE so I dont know how they’d be able to pull it off.

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Posted by: helladoom.4317

helladoom.4317

“The higher levels give higher rewards”

The higher levels have higher cost and face tougher mobs, so relatively it’s the same.

The only real differences between low level an high level is that low level can not do high level content, and high level has more skills to choose from.

“I’ve met countless people who refused to play GW1 because it only had 20 levels.”

Perhaps it would help if Anet would go all the way with their design philosophy and ditch levels all together. At least then it would be obvious to everyone that it’s fundamentally different than traditional computer mmorpgs.

Though there probably should be a few tiers: something like (optional) tutorial with skill progression, casual/normal, casual/hard, hardcore.

Having no levels sure would make level downscaling and upscaling a lot simpler…

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

Only thing I really dislike about level-system is weak down-scaling. At level 80 most of the areas are just faceroll.
Would have loved it if all areas were kind of equal (starter areas of course easier) and with cross-area events.

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Posted by: Milennin.4825

Milennin.4825

To set the pacing.

Just who the hell do you think I am!?

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Posted by: Knote.2904

Knote.2904

Because progression feels great, despite what people will say otherwise lol.

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Posted by: Seras.5702

Seras.5702

In GW, once you hit 20, you could just skip everything between you and the fun “end-game” stuff. TOA runs, Droks runs, and runs to the Crystal Desert existed because people hit 20 so fast and they wanted immediate access to things like FOW, Ring of Fire, and armor. Progression keeps everyone from rushing to the end before their time. And, it gives you a better sense of immersion in the story. Remember, you’re building a hero & a legacy from scratch. Most don’t simply leap into a dragon’s den on day 2.

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Posted by: Rick.1378

Rick.1378

Op has an excellent point IMO, why bother with levels? I think something unique may be that a particular dungeon needs a special skill set which is earned through finishing a zone. For example you can have a dungeon that requires an undead skill set, and you earn that skill set by finishing an undead solo and/or group zone.

I was hoping we would be done with levels one day, but Anet is not the company to do it. Off topic, but one day I’d love to not have mobs aimlessly wandering in the wild waiting for you to step into their “aggro radius” before chasing you a certain distance then magically leashing.

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Posted by: Kendu Kuzal.3985

Kendu Kuzal.3985

I agree with the OP as well. Not that I know any better than the developers, but the current system is very similar to the SWG system minus the ability to multi-class spec. The trait points offer you the ability to truly make your own build that is unique.

For those of you that didn’t play SWG (pre-NGE, aka “the golden years”). It was a sandbox style MMO that had the most incredible community and player driven content. They implemented a Skill tree system in which you built up a pool of experience. Your experience could be put into a specified skill within a class tree. Each class tree contained 4 core levels, a novice level, and a mastery level. It would work as follows:

Everyone had 255 spendable skillpoints but they could only be spent when enough experience was gained for a skill box.

You’d become a novice of a specified base profession at the cost of no experience and something like 15 skill points. The novice skill box would give you some base stats and weapon certifications- For Guild Wars sake, you wouldn’t pick your profession and spend points, it would just be the class you chose from the start.

Based on the weapon type you used (or crafting type you performed) you would gain experience in that specific weapon. Once you built up enough experience you could use it to purchase another box in your skill tree for that specified weapon. It would also spend a minimal amount of skill points, say maybe 2, since this is one of your first tier boxes. So now you’ve used 17 of 255 skillpoints. As you gain more experience you could use it for additional skillboxes. You’d have 4 total for each weapon type or specialization for a grand total of 16 boxes within a profession before mastery. So each of the 4 tiers of boxes would cost progressively more experience and skillpoints.

Once you reached 4th tier in a set of boxes, you might be able to progress into a mastery level profession. Some master level professions had several pre-requisites. Other master level professions didn’t.

I could see a similar system implemented with the trait system we use now, as it uses a similar principle. Instead of 255 skill points we currently get 40 trait points. You could easily bump that up to 80 points to properly mesh with all of the in game items.

Next you break the professions down by what we’d call “build types”. Lets use warriors.

Warriors would gain access to all weapons, or maybe one handed mainhand weapons from the start. As they used each weapon, they’d gain experience and could unlock traitpoints within related trees. Say, mace and hammers are linked to experience that would build defense and tactics skills. Two handers would build primarily precision with secondary power. Swords and axes would build power and condition, etc.
Once you got so many trait points within, you’d unlock the next rarity set of weapons or maybe just open up a better crop of them. (ie first tier grey-blue, second tier green-yellow). Perhaps the same would go for armor. May also tie your skills into it, or utilities into it.

So you are progressively getting better based on your experience, and gaining new masteries and skills/stats based on the boxes YOU choose. It eliminates skills associated with weapons you don’t use, and allows you to fine tune your spec even more. No levels necessary.

Obviously this is rough and would require a lot more thought, but I will say, the first thing the trait system freedom reminded me of was SWG. By my standards, the original SWG was the best MMO I had ever played simply because of the freedom and community it promoted. Also reminds me of UO to an extent as well, just more in depth. This is the first MMO I have played since the old days that I have really enjoyed progressing in. I’m glad A-net used the system it did, as it’s introducing a lot of casual or new MMORPG players to what made this genre so great in the first place. Freedom.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

@Damage Inc.5736

Someone is new to RPG’s lmao.
I mean seriously?

That seems like an elitist attitude. I am not new to MMO’s. This system was supposed to not be typical of MMO’s. Why not just start everyone at 80? There’s down leveling anyway.

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Posted by: SHM.7628

SHM.7628

They wanted it this way and it’s not like they’re going to scrap the whole for no benefit at all.

Red there is a benefit. Whole zones won’t be empty. This game is designed to work better with full maps. It’s not easy doing most of these DE’s alone.

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Posted by: EnochDagor.6185

EnochDagor.6185

Levels help to ease people into their skillsets and gate content. Even the most open sandbox games use different mechanisms to help direct players… levels or not.

QFT – this is the real reason. You could get rid of levels but then certain player types (ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test) will find the game completely unappealing because of a lack of direction.

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Various other classes for figuring out how to kill em (thief, warrior, mesmer, etc…)
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Posted by: CJAncients.6907

CJAncients.6907

Because people aren’t ready for no levels yet. It’s really simple as that.

You might not like levels, other people might not like levels, I don’t like levels too. It doesn’t change the face we are completely outnumbered by those who do.

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Posted by: dimgl.4786

dimgl.4786

I’ve met countless people who refused to play GW1 because it only had 20 levels.

It doesn’t matter that both games technically have unlimited levels – every so many XP you get something. And that technically both games have levels that are meaningless past a fairly early point…

People want that number over their heads, and want it to be big…

So we have it.

And it was such a stupid reason not to play the game. Guild Wars is an amazing game.

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Posted by: Mancub.2495

Mancub.2495

I’ve wondered this about the game since I started playing. There is nothing wrong with leveling but it doesn’t feel like it belongs in this game from the way the game was designed.

They put various mechanics in game to get people into all the zones; even if you are above level they want you out exploring areas. The way map completion, DE’s, downscaling, etc. works encourage you to see everything. Then they put one big mechanic in that greatly discourages exploration and being out and about: leveling and a level scaled rewards system.

I get wanting to have a sense of progression for your character, but leveling? Leveling as a tool for progression has pitfalls. If leveling gives a sense of progression, doesn’t going back to old zones, being down-leveled, given low level rewards feel like regression? To me it does. Sure I feel more powerful than low level content and it’s still fun to do but from a progression standpoint, it’s counterproductive to visit low level areas.

As mentioned by others though, leveling is a sacred cow in gaming, esp RPG’s. Take it out and people will immediately assume the game has no direction or progression, making it difficult to scrap from the marketing side of development.

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Posted by: callidus.7085

callidus.7085

I can understand both sides but in the end I’m glad there are 80 levels. It’s more familiar for people who are used to games with level progression and if that helps increase the population, so be it! It just feels right to me ^.^

Slow down and smell the pixels.