Guild Wars 2

I keep hearing about how evil of vertical progression is, but I haven’t really heard why. You guys talk about the gear “grind”(we really need to go over the definition of grind. The only real grinding aspect in this game are legendaries), but don’t really talk about why it would hurt the game. Also what is horizontal progression?

We have other threads about it.

Most rpgs have some progression to them, either “vertical” of improving your character’s capabilities, or progressing a story. With regard to GW1, it was notable in that there was limited gear progression that was vertical, and very limited time leveling.

Horizontal progression is a term for not having any vertical progression. I guess it’d be like advancing a story-line, except there isn’t really any in GW2.

The potential bad part of vertical progression isn’t the progression part, but rather that “gating” is often associated with it, where a player may be effectively locked out of game content if they haven’t vertically-progressed enough.

Another draw back to vertical progression is older sections of a game often become obsolete which leads to a growing amount of unused content.

Jinn Kazuma.2163:

Another draw back to vertical progression is older sections of a game often become obsolete which leads to a growing amount of unused content.

“Wasted content” never troubles me. It’s there if you want to do it, especially in an auto-scale system.

We have a lot of it in GW2, simply because a new 80 will have less than 1/3 of the world covered. Myself, I’d really rather not do Timberline Falls, but it’s there for people to play.

It is a problem in games where content comes out slowly. But if we’re getting a new big chunk every month, it’s all ok here. In EQ1, my guild was generally an expansion behind in progression, and it worked fine for us (and they were still going strong last I checked in with them). Eventually, raid targets turned into single-party targets, so it really depends on the game and how gating works.

There is nothing wrong with it, but when…. oh never mind, it’s been said a 1000 times, use search.

My example would be Lineage II, eternal grind in lower levels, but was so much fun, even low levels were welcome in clans because used to create clan points for the clan to buy skills,, level up clan, get more slots, etc and even when you were doing the grind, you always found pvp in lower level areas, you were doing PvP for PvE, was an open world system, hardcore game which had a lot of casuals because the game was fun and cute, i stopped playing it when some one winged angels came out for personal reasons, and played it a few again when went f2p.

even in my low levels i used to go epic world raids, probably sometimes i was one shooted by the boss or by other players, because was open world sanbox, but used to ress people and some stuff to be worth around and i had fun, castle sieges happend the same, and when i got at top of the mountain, the game still had me charmed by the castle sieges, epic raids, daily pvp/pve, open world raid bosses, helping low level clan members, and the simple beauty of the game itself, etc

vertical or horizontal doesnt exist are just excuses of why you dont like something, at the end is the same thing, how is it done? how is handled? is it fun? will be worth while doing it? will be worth at the top? is accessible by everyone who care enough? etc, all depends in the game design itself, so stop using those two excuses (vertical and horizontal), theres just one word which is Progression.

Jinn Kazuma.2163:

Another draw back to vertical progression is older sections of a game often become obsolete which leads to a growing amount of unused content.

Really?? You mean like the 90% empty -80 zones in the game that we currently have. No one moaned about the 1-80 lvl grind in the game as I can see and no one foresaw that this would lead to an empty world.

I think you have to face facts here, GW2 already has vertical progression, it had it when you created a character and logged in.
For those of you that have played, Rift and GW2 have very similar designs however Rift made sure that there was a lot to do in all there zones and they did this without scaling the player lvl. Anet should take a leaf out of their book I think.

judeobscure.2537:

http://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw

really? what a god kitten awful examples, he compares LoL to WoW, has he ever played any of both? then he says in ‘’wow i go afk 1 year, but i come back and my friends have better gear than me because did new content and keep doing stuff while i was afk 1 year’’ hilarious ‘’the lower lvl areas get empty because are obsolete’’ more like you have nothing to do anymore there, but new chars should new players should, take as example my lineage II experience, i was in the Top and still had reasons to go back there and still logging in, all depends in the game not in some kind of hypothesis

After seeing that video i take back everything ive said, best way is vertical progression, it actually exist oh god, VERTICAL all the way.

Players who hate vertical progression are just those players in the wrong group. They are players who favor action-games than rpgs during their console-gaming phases in life.

There are reasons why RPG-fans like me hate games like Tomb Raider, Ninja Gaiden and other action-games. If people realised, Tomb Raider isn’t a RPG-genred even when you role-played as Lara Croft. RPGs isn’t just about “role-playing a character” but the progressive nature that develop the characters. RPG = Dedication > Player skills.

I like to progress the character like in storybooks than having a non-progressive character that makes stages harder through progression. At the same time, I want realism of the world. The “best items” have real rewarding functions. The “philosopher stone” in Harry Potter and “ring” in Lord of The Rings novels are not just aesthetics.

mulch.2586:

The potential bad part of vertical progression isn’t the progression part, but rather that “gating” is often associated with it, where a player may be effectively locked out of game content if they haven’t vertically-progressed enough.

I have stopped played WoW many times, for periods of 3 months to a year, and I always can find a group using their Looking for Dungeon Tools. In MMOs is impossible to stay locked out of the progression, because there will be always people at your level, or behind your level, or way ahead of you.

The idea of the entire server population progressing at the same time and leaving people behind is just that, and idea. In reality it doesnt work that way. I have never in all my life playing MMOs being unable to progress because “everyone else is already ahead of me”.

Naoko.7096:

Players who hate vertical progression are just those players in the wrong group. They are players who favor action-games than rpgs during their console-gaming phases in life.

There are reasons why RPG-fans like me hate games like Tomb Raider, Ninja Gaiden and other action-games. If people realised, Tomb Raider isn’t a RPG-genred even when you role-played as Lara Croft. RPGs isn’t just about “role-playing a character” but the progressive nature that develop the characters. RPG = Dedication > Player skills.

I like to progress the character like in storybooks than having a non-progressive character that makes stages harder through progression. At the same time, I want realism of the world. The “best items” have real rewarding functions. The “philosopher stone” in Harry Potter and “ring” in Lord of The Rings novels are not just aesthetics.

RPGs are about vertical progression, Dungeon and Dragons, the father of computer RPGs, has, along with a very nice journey, vertical progression through levels, XP and +items. And when you think you reach the top in D&D you start gaining epic levels, and then divinity.

luchifer.6401:

mulch.2586:

The potential bad part of vertical progression isn’t the progression part, but rather that “gating” is often associated with it, where a player may be effectively locked out of game content if they haven’t vertically-progressed enough.

I have stopped played WoW many times, for periods of 3 months to a year, and I always can find a group using their Looking for Dungeon Tools. In MMOs is impossible to stay locked out of the progression, because there will be always people at your level, or behind your level, or way ahead of you.

The idea of the entire server population progressing at the same time and leaving people behind is just that, and idea. In reality it doesnt work that way. I have never in all my life playing MMOs being unable to progress because “everyone else is already ahead of me”.

Ahhh I see, you mean like say the fractals system that is now already part of the game.

You could apply this theory though to any game at all, if you don’t want vertical progression Anet might as well have had a lvl cap of 1 with all class skills applied, access to all armors without a cost and had a single Pve zone.

I’m pretty sure though had they done this, GW2 would have turned into a crap game where people got bored after a couple of hours playing because there was nothing on the horizon to aim for.

luchifer.6401:

mulch.2586:

The potential bad part of vertical progression isn’t the progression part, but rather that “gating” is often associated with it, where a player may be effectively locked out of game content if they haven’t vertically-progressed enough.

I have stopped played WoW many times, for periods of 3 months to a year, and I always can find a group using their Looking for Dungeon Tools. In MMOs is impossible to stay locked out of the progression, because there will be always people at your level, or behind your level, or way ahead of you.

The idea of the entire server population progressing at the same time and leaving people behind is just that, and idea. In reality it doesnt work that way. I have never in all my life playing MMOs being unable to progress because “everyone else is already ahead of me”.

That’s true for WoW, because WoW has always been easy-mode (and even then, you couldn’t enter Serpentshrine without doing a lengthy key quest, even needed key for UBRS and Molten Core).

In EQ, on the other hand, you needed to be flagged, and since there were no instances, guilds would deliberately prevent other guilds from being able to get flagged. Lineage-2 had an explicit lock-out system that was pvp-related, if you’re in the wrong clan you can only feed the enemy.

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

mulch.2586:

luchifer.6401:

mulch.2586:

The potential bad part of vertical progression isn’t the progression part, but rather that “gating” is often associated with it, where a player may be effectively locked out of game content if they haven’t vertically-progressed enough.

I have stopped played WoW many times, for periods of 3 months to a year, and I always can find a group using their Looking for Dungeon Tools. In MMOs is impossible to stay locked out of the progression, because there will be always people at your level, or behind your level, or way ahead of you.

The idea of the entire server population progressing at the same time and leaving people behind is just that, and idea. In reality it doesnt work that way. I have never in all my life playing MMOs being unable to progress because “everyone else is already ahead of me”.

That’s true for WoW, because WoW has always been easy-mode (and even then, you couldn’t enter Serpentshrine without doing a lengthy key quest, even needed key for UBRS and Molten Core).

In EQ, on the other hand, you needed to be flagged, and since there were no instances, guilds would deliberately prevent other guilds from being able to get flagged. Lineage-2 had an explicit lock-out system that was pvp-related, if you’re in the wrong clan you can only feed the enemy.

You dont need keys in WoW anymore, and I dont talk about how easy is the game, im talking about how easy is to find a group to go to a dungeon to get gear to stay ahead of the leveling progression in WoW. I SWtor is the same, and its the same in every other game. Right now, I can create a new account in Swtor, DDO, Lotro, even GW1 and start doing quest, dungeons or whatever is required to progress vertically.

(obviouslly in GW1 the “vertical” part of the game is over in a week or two)

What Ganzo said: they claimed this game would be about horizontal progression. I personally don’t mind their change in philosophy to the point of quitting right away, but at the same time I’m also likely to remain in the market for new games for the foreseeable future. After all, the main thing in GW2 that appealed to me over the competition has been done away with.

Ganzo.5079:

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

Well, thats a very good point I can’t disagree.

This game does have vertical progressions and they do fail. Look at the low-mid level map.

My beef with horizontal progession is when they start making the mob x’ more HP so they can live through the new gear.

Then they have to add some silly stat for PvP like Resilience, expertise, or some other bull kitten stat allow people to be viable in PvP.

Thats when vertical progression starts messing with my enjoyment of the game.

I could give a happy rat if you have super duper king kong dungeon gear.
So far no dev’s have attempted to limit the effect of PvE on PvP

I take that back Vanilla WoW the two types of gear PvE and PvP were very close
Since then it’s a crap shoot

Ganzo.5079:

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

While this is true and I cant dissagee with your point, not a single person has complained about lvling from 1-80? Why not? no one brought this up in beta and its exactly what vertical progression is, if you wanted to complain then was the time to do it.

Let’s say vertical progression is a pickup truck and horizontal progression is a family sedan. There isn’t anything “wrong” with pickup trucks. but not every vehicle needs to be one. Sometimes a sedan is nice.

As well as the other problems listed I personally find it hollow. A lot of people seem to think it is mandatory for an MMO but none have yet to give a reason why adding + 1 equipment to fight the + 1 monsters is considered content. Why couldn’t we just go straight to fighting the new monsters? How is the new equipment worth it when the monsters are still just as hard to fight in comparison?

YPC.6349:

This game does have vertical progressions and they do fail. Look at the low-mid level map.

Every game with a level scale have a component of vertical progression, the real difference is what devs create when you hit the max level.

The wow like game have new tiers with a totally different level, on the old wrath of the lich king a level 80 char had item with level from 200 to 284 (i stopped to play on wotlk, so i dont know the items level for cata and pandaland)

The GW model is totally different, because after reaching the max level, you dont change stats, but only skins rarity.

Ganzo.5079:

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

Pretty much what Ganzo said (though the analogy made me lol). Nothing wrong with vertical progression but game was not advertised as such, rather there was a heavy emphasis on a plateau at level 80, cosmetics, exploration, ect. I mean, if they want to add vertical progression to increase retention that’s fine, but I personally feel it’s a lost cause given that most who left due to the lack of it at “end-game” won’t come be coming back in droves due to adding bits and pieces of gear in content patches sprinkled about.

Tbh if I wanted to play a game with heavy emphasis on gear/stat progress I would play something else (and I do). I like how easy getting the gear you wanted to experience dungeons competently/WvW is and would be put off if obtaining Ascended gear is as much of a grind as getting the silly trinkets/backpieces are in Fractals.

I personally feel FotM, and the emphasis on obtaining the items/gear there, devalues a lot of the game as a whole; though I guess it also shows a large amount of the playerbase don’t care about the game world/exploring. Or maybe Arena Net does a bad job at providing incentive for exploring the world? Dunno.

Ganzo.5079:

YPC.6349:

This game does have vertical progressions and they do fail. Look at the low-mid level map.

Every game with a level scale have a component of vertical progression, the real difference is what devs create when you hit the max level.

The wow like game have new tiers with a totally different level, on the old wrath of the lich king a level 80 char had item with level from 200 to 284 (i stopped to play on wotlk, so i dont know the items level for cata and pandaland)

The GW model is totally different, because after reaching the max level, you dont change stats, but only skins rarity.

The idea of rewarding progression with a new skin is great in my opinion however there is one problem with it, people are only likely to do these new things if the skin is something they like or want.

Giving players a reward with a stat + on it, regardless of how small that bonus means people have more of an incentive to go and get it.

DieQuex.4096:

Ganzo.5079:

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

I personally feel FotM, and the emphasis on obtaining the items/gear there, devalues a lot of the game as a whole; though I guess it also shows a large amount of the playerbase don’t care about the game world/exploring. Or maybe Arena Net does a bad job at providing incentive for exploring the world? Dunno.

In the start i was really angry with the Fotm choice, now im not playing, but i plan to return when all the ascended set will be fully released.(i like to plan my equipment, and i really hate partial releases)
I hope they understand they error they made, and they will stop with the stats progression in favor of more challeging contents.

and to be exaustive with a stupid example if you add +1 on difficulty, and then +1 on equipment value, the overall challenge rate , is pratically the same.
on WOW do a lvl 70 dungeon with equipment designed for lvl 70 chars, and do lvl 80 dungeon with equipment designed for lvl 80 chars, is the same experience! no real challenge. This is the trap of the vertical progression after the max level.

p.s. after reading the message i see that my example is just wrong, but i hope that ppl understand what i mean, otherwise, i will do an example that perfectly fit my idea.

Ganzo.5079:

on WOW do a lvl 70 dungeon with equipment designe for lvl 70 chars, and do lvl 80 dungeon with equiopment designed for lvl 80 chars, is the same experience! no real challenge. This is the trap of the vertical progression after the max level.

Is not a trap, players arent stupid to not notice that. People know it but they want that because it doesnt matter if its the same, it feels like your character is evolving. Its the same in everything else, in movies the hero does not go and kill directly the boss, he has to go through trash, mini bosses, get weapons and then kill the boss. Or in Gran Turismo and Need for speed game, you get a new, shiny car? great, now go and race against new and shiny cars.

Horizontal progression let you choose what do you wanna do. Vertical progression not so much. Both have pros and cons. One thing against horizontal progression, is that every dungeon you dont want to do ot every skin you dont like, means content wasted by the designers of the game.

GranMothNathan.1285:

I keep hearing about how evil of vertical progression is, but I haven’t really heard why. You guys talk about the gear “grind”(we really need to go over the definition of grind. The only real grinding aspect in this game are legendaries), but don’t really talk about why it would hurt the game. Also what is horizontal progression?

So you’re arguing that 40 skill points, 50 ecto, and 250 of a T6 crafting material for ONE back piece isn’t a “grind”? (Or 1850 Fractal relics, 40 skill points, and 1 vial of RNG goodness.)

Also, playing the RNG every single day for a freaking ring (that you don’t even get to determine the stats of) isn’t a grind?

The issue is that Ascended items (as even stated by Mike O’brien) give a 5-10% stat boost. Yeah, for the 3/12 slots… You may only end up being 2% better than you were before…

But once we have a full Ascended set? That’s going to be a 10% improvement over Exotics.

You can’t tell me that 10% isn’t a noticeable difference. That’s 10% more armor, HP, and attack/condition damage.

This complaining about grind and such has caused ArenaNet to re-evaluate the way they introduced the existing Ascended items (and thus they hopefully won’t make the same mistakes in the future.)

Naoko.7096:

Players who hate vertical progression are just those players in the wrong group. They are players who favor action-games than rpgs during their console-gaming phases in life.

There are reasons why RPG-fans like me hate games like Tomb Raider, Ninja Gaiden and other action-games. If people realised, Tomb Raider isn’t a RPG-genred even when you role-played as Lara Croft. RPGs isn’t just about “role-playing a character” but the progressive nature that develop the characters. RPG = Dedication > Player skills.

I like to progress the character like in storybooks than having a non-progressive character that makes stages harder through progression. At the same time, I want realism of the world. The “best items” have real rewarding functions. The “philosopher stone” in Harry Potter and “ring” in Lord of The Rings novels are not just aesthetics.

So who made you the authority on what a RPG has to be? How is your “realism” any more real than +1 gear that doesn’t exist in the real world?

Stop spewing nonsense.

A lot of people keep saying that GW1 didn’t have verticial progression.

I would like to argue that it does, just not in an obvious way. Most people are describing vertical progression as “needing to grind or do something periodically to keep up with the rest of the players in the game”.

GW1 had exactly that, though perhaps on a more minor scale. I played the original GW pretty soon after it first came out, then I stopped playing for a few years. I came back after Nightfall and Factions were introduced only to find that my skillsets (and technically my equipment) was out of date. I had to go get those skills and had to re-equip to match. When EotN came out, the same thing happened.

Plus you didn’t have to grind to get the “best” equipment, but you sure had to grind to get the coolest equipment, and to get titles. And after a certain point, pretty much everyone wants a cool title and cool stuff.

Vertical progression is fine as long as it’s small (and I’d much rather stat changes than new skills coming out that require complete build changes, especially with the current armor salvage system). And grinding simply to get the “cool” stuff is fine. If you want the “cool” stuff, grind away. If you don’t, you aren’t going to be crippling yourself terribly either.

I don’t understand how the people who want to be “absolutely perfect at everything” are often the same people who “don’t like the idea of vertical progression”. You want a goal to achieve, and they are giving it to you.

If the armor releases with a HUGE difference in stats, and the weapons come out with crazy bonuses, I will probably start carrying a pitchfork with you guys though. I’m going to give Anet a chance for a bit though, see what they plan on doing.

luchifer.6401:

Ganzo.5079:

on WOW do a lvl 70 dungeon with equipment designe for lvl 70 chars, and do lvl 80 dungeon with equiopment designed for lvl 80 chars, is the same experience! no real challenge. This is the trap of the vertical progression after the max level.

Is not a trap, players arent stupid to not notice that. People know it but they want that because it doesnt matter if its the same, it feels like your character is evolving. Its the same in everything else, in movies the hero does not go and kill directly the boss, he has to go through trash, mini bosses, get weapons and then kill the boss. Or in Gran Turismo and Need for speed game, you get a new, shiny car? great, now go and race against new and shiny cars.

Horizontal progression let you choose what do you wanna do. Vertical progression not so much. Both have pros and cons. One thing against horizontal progression, is that every dungeon you dont want to do ot every skin you dont like, means content wasted by the designers of the game.

With the latest Need for Speed game, all cars are available from the start… You just have to find them.

Yeah, completing events unlocks upgrades for the car… But that’s equivalent to leveling in an RPG.

You don’t have to depend on a RNG that prevents your progression through a certain race that gives better gear for your car. Because that would just be an incredibly bad game design choice. (See: Fractals, Agony, and Ascended Rings)

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

If the armor releases with a HUGE difference in stats, and the weapons come out with crazy bonuses, I will probably start carrying a pitchfork with you guys though. I’m going to give Anet a chance for a bit though, see what they plan on doing.

Thats the real issue. Rings (i cant talk about backs, because dont exist an exotic back) have already a good difference in terms of stats so, the whole ascended set will be surely a lot stronger then the exotic one, but thats not a real problem if:

• Ascended set and infusion, mantain a fixed level of stats (i dont talk about agony resistance, because it influence only FOTM), so no stats tier after the ascended one.
• Rune and sigils will be usable on ascended items too.
• Ascended set will be obtainable through the whole environment, and not only through mistic forge and fractal.

Ganzo.5079:

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

If the armor releases with a HUGE difference in stats, and the weapons come out with crazy bonuses, I will probably start carrying a pitchfork with you guys though. I’m going to give Anet a chance for a bit though, see what they plan on doing.

Thats the real issue. Rings (i cant talk about backs, because dont exist an exotic back) have already a good difference in terms of stats so, the whole ascended set will be surely a lot stronger then the exotic one, but thats not a real problem if:

• Ascended set and infusion, mantain a fixed level of stats (i dont talk about agony resistance, because it influence only FOTM), so no stats tier after the ascended one.
• Rune and sigils will be usable on ascended items too.
• Ascended set will be obtainable through the whole environment, and not only through mistic forge and fractal.

I agree.

They have mentioned that they are going to be obtainable through FotM, WvW, and PvE. So that shouldn’t be a problem unless they do it in some wonky way like… weapons in WvW, jewelry in FotM, and armor in PvE.

I might have misread or misunderstood the rune/sigil thing, but they made it sound like they would be included in the items, which means there may be some impossible to make builds with ascended gear. I suppose if that were the case, some builds would be more powerful than others, since they got their gear.

I feel like ascended will be the last. I think they will bite the bullet on this one, and keep going with ascended gear. But I don’t think they will make a gear tier above this, because the huge backlash this time will only get worse if they do it again.

Legendary > Ascended > Exotic > Rare > Masterwork > Common

I am perfectly content with that. Other than the color pink. Blech. I don’t want pink gear!

Twitchz.6407:

Ganzo.5079:

YPC.6349:

This game does have vertical progressions and they do fail. Look at the low-mid level map.

Every game with a level scale have a component of vertical progression, the real difference is what devs create when you hit the max level.

The wow like game have new tiers with a totally different level, on the old wrath of the lich king a level 80 char had item with level from 200 to 284 (i stopped to play on wotlk, so i dont know the items level for cata and pandaland)

The GW model is totally different, because after reaching the max level, you dont change stats, but only skins rarity.

The idea of rewarding progression with a new skin is great in my opinion however there is one problem with it, people are only likely to do these new things if the skin is something they like or want.

Giving players a reward with a stat + on it, regardless of how small that bonus means people have more of an incentive to go and get it.

But that’s the point, you have already been proven wrong. In GW1, players worked for years to get the FOW armor, which was some of the ugliest armor in the game, but having it was an elite status, so players still worked for it. No better stats, just a skin which was not the best in game, and players worked for years? How do you explain that?

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

I might have misread or misunderstood the rune/sigil thing, but they made it sound like they would be included in the items, which means there may be some impossible to make builds with ascended gear. I suppose if that were the case, some builds would be more powerful than others, since they got their gear.

I quote only this, because i agree on the rest.

Well we dont know what they deserve for armors and weapons, but have the crest stats directly on the item, will be a fatal error!

To make and example, i play a shout guardian, but without the soldier rune it will be less and less effective, not for stats, but for the 6 rune effect. i really hope they tweak armors and weapons with a dual slot, one for upgrades, and one for infusions. (jewelery is fine, i know no one that change the gems on an exotic ring, i dont know if its possible too xD)

Twitchz.6407:

Ganzo.5079:

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

While this is true and I cant dissagee with your point, not a single person has complained about lvling from 1-80? Why not? no one brought this up in beta and its exactly what vertical progression is, if you wanted to complain then was the time to do it.

There is not even a response to that, I would suggest you go read the many, MANY threads and comments on the subject as you seem to have no grasp of what the issue is and I am not going to waste my time trying to explain what has been explained before.

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

Twitchz.6407:

Ganzo.5079:

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

While this is true and I cant dissagee with your point, not a single person has complained about lvling from 1-80? Why not? no one brought this up in beta and its exactly what vertical progression is, if you wanted to complain then was the time to do it.

There is not even a response to that, I would suggest you go read the many, MANY threads and comments on the subject as you seem to have no grasp of what the issue is and I am not going to waste my time trying to explain what has been explained before.

I didn’t play GW1 for very long due to the fact that I joined late after it released and could never find a group to do anything with, however saying that there is no way I would waste my time getting an armor skin that i didn’t want just because its there.

As for your other response I haven’t seen any threads regarding vertical progression pre release, and if there are any I have to ask if you knew there was a lvl grind why did you buy the game. Could you point me towards any of these threads ShiningSquirrel because I cant seem to see any.

As you seem unable or unwilling to share your opinion on the matter though I’m afraid I’ll have to dismiss your comment.

Answering the thread title:
- gates content
- divide users base
- makes past content useless

judeobscure.2537:

http://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw

This.

Nothing really wrong with it but this is not the kind of game that was advertised to us.

More Answers the thread title:

-gives unneeded gear advantage to hardcore over casual
-puts pressure on people to play (grind) so they don’t fall behind progression curve
-changes incentives socially making people act more cut throat and builds an elitist culture
-gives gear advantage of rich people over poor (buying hard to get mats)

Horizontal progression is giving rewards that makes one different is some way but not better in regards to gear.

Vertical progression ends up focusing more on how good your gear is (and thereby how much time and in-game money {read: more time} you’ve sunk into the game), and horizontal ends up focusing more on your build and your skill (since everyone is on the same gear level at max). This is, I think, a bigger deal in PvP than PvE – but then again, it would also affect things like dungeons, because people want the best-spec’d players.
Also, the thing about vertical progression, is that you can’t just stop it once you’ve set it in motion. You have to keep adding better armor, higher levels, augmentier augments to keep people interested, because that is what you have set up as the players’ goal, and once they reach the highest tier, if you do not introduce a new one, they’ll just say “ok nothing else to do here”.
As time goes on, it creates a barrier for new players as well, because they have a longer way to go to catch up.
Horizontal, on the other hand, caps all the stats and keeps them there, and expands armor/weapons/skills horizontally in the sense that a new piece of armor or weapon or skill will be different, but not better than the others (if balanced). It has a “treadmill” of its own, but this one is more for the devs than the players, because they have to consistently introduce new content (vs. a new gear-tier in vertical for people to grind).

I think the concept is easy to understand if you visualize it as a tree chart. Vertical is long, with a couple of branches, and horizontal is stumpy with a lot of branches.

Naoko.7096:

Players who hate vertical progression are just those players in the wrong group. They are players who favor action-games than rpgs during their console-gaming phases in life.

I’d say it’s more like prefering Planescape Torment rather than Icewind Dale. Both are cRPGs, but one is more about RPG part, while the second is mostly linear progression grind.

JemL.3501:

judeobscure.2537:

http://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw

really? what a god kitten awful examples, he compares LoL to WoW

Really? What god kitten awful arguments you got down there. Not only the video explains what power creep is and why it’s bad, but it also does a pretty good job at it. So what, it compares LoL and WoW? They’re both videogames you know, altough completely different ones.

You see, the problem with vertical progression is that it doesn’t exist. You aren’t really progressing in anything at all : your characters stats increase, but the same happens to your foes. Back to square one. Vertical progression is there because MMO companies need to retain their players subscriptions by making them busy and creating the illusion of content, but GW2 has no sub fees so they really don’t need to have us playing every single day.

Now I just had a brilliant idea for the December patch, hear me out!
Let’s make it so that AC tokens can buy you an ascended set after 50 runs, and you need the ascended set to run CM. With CM’s tokens you buy Ascended 2.0 (better stats yay!) items and after 50 runs you are ready for TA! Then you’ll do SE and so on Now that is A LOT of new content and awesome fun, right guys?
How I wish they decided to implement this kind of system during beta/launch. I could’ve avoided suggesting the game to friends, asked for a refund and everyone would’ve been happier.

Twitchz.6407:

Ganzo.5079:

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

While this is true and I cant dissagee with your point, not a single person has complained about lvling from 1-80? Why not? no one brought this up in beta and its exactly what vertical progression is, if you wanted to complain then was the time to do it.

No, leveling up is not the vertical progression we are talking about. It ends. Gear treadmills don’t, once you reach max stats they simply add higher ones. It doesn’t take much, while the almighty progression requires you to spend 20hours for a +1 on your HP pool. It’s also a diverse experience ( you can do open-world PVE, story mode dungeons,WvW, even craft ) and doesn’t require you to farm or repeat any content.

I have no issues with vertical progression but as with the ascended gear it shouldn’t be a grind fest in order to achieve it, I think there should have been rewards to FotM that upgrade your armor as you progress through it or something like that.

Wolfheart.1938:

JemL.3501:

judeobscure.2537:

http://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw

really? what a god kitten awful examples, he compares LoL to WoW

Really? What god kitten awful arguments you got down there. Not only the video explains what power creep is and why it’s bad, but it also does a pretty good job at it. So what, it compares LoL and WoW? They’re both videogames you know, altough completely different ones.

and a cool story

LOL = MOBA
WOW = MMORPG
SC2 = MMORTS
PS2 = MMOFPS

capiche?

Power creep? he doesnt explain anything than the obvious, he dont do a good job at it, he sounds like a console gamer. We arent playing The Legend of Zelda or Final Fantasy even if these both are RPGs cannot be compared to an MMORPG. You cannot compare two different types of gameplay and game mechanics, is delusional.

LoL can be compared only to practically Hon and Dota 2, that is it, while WoW to GW2 or RIFT or TERA or -insert any other MMORPG-

That video is terrible in all aspects, period.

And i already stated vertical and horizontal doesnt exist are just excuses from people which dislike or like some features, the only word that exist is progression, even a console game RPG game has it, but when you finish it, that is it, goes to the dust, thats the good thing of MMORPG, the internet, is a wonderful thing which wont require to make another The Legend of Zelda series., go and read my first post of why i played for so long Lineage II.

Wolfheart.1938:

Twitchz.6407:

Ganzo.5079:

There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).

If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.

While this is true and I cant dissagee with your point, not a single person has complained about lvling from 1-80? Why not? no one brought this up in beta and its exactly what vertical progression is, if you wanted to complain then was the time to do it.

No, leveling up is not the vertical progression we are talking about. It ends. Gear treadmills don’t, once you reach max stats they simply add higher ones. It doesn’t take much, while the almighty progression requires you to spend 20hours for a +1 on your HP pool. It’s also a diverse experience ( you can do open-world PVE, story mode dungeons,WvW, even craft ) and doesn’t require you to farm or repeat any content.

So really what you guys are after are things more like dynamic events and such to take part in, ala Rift style?

In this sense there is no point adding any more items to the game and Anet should simply focus on what people enjoy doing most.

I’m fine with progression as long as it doesn’t have to do with gear.
Gear progression is bad, obsolete, woefully stale – and especially, it’s lazy design.
Character progression instead is interesting.

A lot of things can push people to play new content, such as capping new skills, unlocking new titles, unlocking difficulties, gaining new traits… just use a bit of imagination.

JemL.3501:

Wolfheart.1938:

cool story

LOL = MOBA
WOW = MMORPG
SC2 = MMORTS
PS2 = MMOFPS

capiche?

Power creep? he doesnt explain anything than the obvious, he dont do a good job at it, he sounds like a console gamer. We arent playing The Legend of Zelda or Final Fantasy. You cannot compare two different types of gameplay and game mechanics, is delusional.

That video is terrible in all aspects, period.

Sorry, what? So just because the genres are different you can’t make any comparisons in relation to a phenomen that is non-genre based? Power creep may not be present in Tetris, but it’s common in many different online videogames that are regurarly updated, such as WoW or LoL.
Also “ermagerd, console gamers r sooooo dumbz lol”.

Twitchz.6407:

I think you have to face facts here, GW2 already has vertical progression, it had it when you created a character and logged in.

The vertical progression was predicated on a great deal of horizontal progression, ie content. It was also definitely bounded by a level cap.

The new stuff they’re releasing is much shorter on horizontal progression, and much heavier on the vertical progression, VP which we can assume to be unrestricted by any sort of level cap given how it was introduced in the first place (by exceeding the level cap, and in fact dragging legendaries up along with it).

Given that developers, like all people, will only work as hard as they need to or feel they need to, the new content is very disheartening in that we’ll see more sizeable content expansions supplanted by smaller content underpinning yet more stat growth.

Southsun Cove is a great example; it’s pathetic in terms of a stand alone zone. It exists solely for a now completed event. You can complain about lower level zones being devoid of other players, but this place is devoid of just about anything. I expect more content like this, and players will accept it because there’s a tiny little stat increase associated with it.

And that’s the most insidious side of VP; it lowers the bar for what is considered acceptable HP. While VP may be a method for attracting players to particular content, overall the larger factor involved is the quality of the content itself, and that’s a matter of HP.