I keep hearing about how evil of vertical progression is, but I haven’t really heard why. You guys talk about the gear “grind”(we really need to go over the definition of grind. The only real grinding aspect in this game are legendaries), but don’t really talk about why it would hurt the game. Also what is horizontal progression?
The problem with horizontal progression is that when you feel your character is complete, you have no reason to continue, whereas with vertical progression, you’re (eventually) forced to continue.
No, that is not a problem with horizontal progression. It’s a problem of the gear-obsessed hamster wheel mentality that seems incapable of grasping the idea that a game is meant to be fun, not a second job that you are indeed “forced” to do. And instead of getting paid for said job, we pay for the “privilege” of being “forced” to do something that isn’t even fun. How utterly messed up is that?
WoW and similar games have brainwashed the creativity and initiative out of their players, at least the ones who wholeheartedly fall for the neverending treadmill, while fostering a very toxic atmosphere of elitism in which your entire worth not only as a player but frequently also as a human being is measured in pixel loot. And that is effing sad to say the least.
As I have said before, I want games with content that can stand on its own merit. I want to do an encounter 101 times because it’s interesting, challenging, funny, not because I’m “forced” to. I want to be able to grab a handful of nice folks and go have fun with them without having to worry about anyone being turned away because their gear isn’t purple enough.
Sorry if you feel that way. I can’t help you on that.
It’s just your over-imagination that you think others hold authority over it.
The whole “structure” has already existed since the beginning.
Progressions, social interactions, role-playing, culture, system architecture and psychology are all part of what makes a mmorpg. Read the psychology aspect of mmorpgs that shares about few points of human nature. What is a mmorpg when there’s no realism in it? Mmorpg is not just a “game” where you play in arcades or console with multi-player options. It’s a virtual world. In novels, authors are recommended to learn about the realism of human nature and behaviours to move readers too. That is because there’s a “world” in books too. RPGs are the same.
The only difference with the world structure are:
[mmorpgs = players-players]
[rpgs = players-npc]
P.S. GW2 got the best rpg title, not the best mmorpg. GW2 deserves best rpg award because the [players-npc] interactions are one of the best in rpgs I played. The npc feel lively and they are very interactive/realistic.
This is why I said people who hate vertical progressions are playing the wrong genre. mmorpg is all about vertical progression. In books, movies and rpgs, character develops and progresses. It’s what keep readers, audiences and players anticipated.
My overimagination? You mean you aren’t the one sitting there, typing away on what a MMORPG has to like, and completely denying all other ways of play?
Also, learn to read. The wiki link only lists progression as a common feature. It’s not a defining feature that makes the genre. Let me just list a few examples.
“In nearly all MMORPGs, the development of the player’s character is a primary goal.”
Note that nearly is bolded for emphasis. It means that almost all MMORPGs have progression as a feature, but not all.
“Many players report that the emotions they feel while playing an MMORPG are very strong, to the extent that 8.7% of male and 23.2% of female players in a statistical study have had an online wedding.”
And this has to do with progression? Besides, there are many games that aren’t MMORPGs that illicit the same kind of player on player memories that you like to mention so much.
You don’t need or have to get max stat gear if it’s too much work for you. If you think the leveling process is too long, then you might want to stack more xp boosts, because the level cap will be raised in the future.
…
GW2 is a big boy’s game, and those big boys want their journey to be as long and hard as possible.
Nobody is going to kill you if you accept that you don’t have what it takes to stay on top. Feeling entitled to be on the same stair step with people that worked hard for it however doesn’t make you any friends. Be humble, know your place.
GW2 is a harsher environment, and the falloff rate for aspiring dedicated players is far higher, but that is what is needed to allow the masses dedicated players to feel a sense of superiority without breaking the game for those who decide to underperform.
My main concern with GW2’s sudden focus on vertical instead of horizontal progression is that we already have TONs of games already focused on it… And they do a better job. GW2 was unique, and that made it amazing. Knowing all content would be about story, exploration and looks instead of just chasing bigger numbers… It was amazing.
But unique doesn’t sell well. If it did, the market wouldn’t be littered with WoW clones.
My main concern with GW2’s sudden focus on vertical instead of horizontal progression is that we already have TONs of games already focused on it… And they do a better job. GW2 was unique, and that made it amazing. Knowing all content would be about story, exploration and looks instead of just chasing bigger numbers… It was amazing.
But unique doesn’t sell well. If it did, the market wouldn’t be littered with WoW clones.
This is not entirely fair as an assessment. You are right to say that other games are better at vertical progression.
The problem for GW2 however is not that it was unique or too different. The problem is that the horizontal progression and story line were not well done for this game. GW1 was a shining example of that, GW2 fails to deliver on that completely, because they took everything from GW1 that made it work and threw it out instead of making it work even better. Story lines are a matter of taste to a degree, but I insist they are not well done. They will never win a prize for their story lines here nor for the voice acting.
Horizontal progression is about making a connection to your character and giving depth to that character. GW2 does not deliver on that at all. So they brought in vertical progression, apparently it was already planned.
The game isn’t all bad of course. There are a lot of good things and ideas in it but it fails to deliver on a more elementary level.
Bottom line for me is this: They are not doing vertical progression as well as other companies and they completely missed the mark on horizontal progression, even though they did it very well in GW1.
It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.
wanted to post this to see what kind of reaction i’d get from newbs in the general forum (but eventually that post got infracted by a mod for double-posting)
haw haw haw
enjoy all ye WoW newb scrubbers, those who’ve moved into this game from WoW.
ANet has built a great game, and now the Gear Treadmill problem has been solved. Forget about your woes of the past from WoW. Move on with this new and improved formula!
ANet has built a great game, and now the Gear Treadmill problem has been solved. Forget about your woes of the past from WoW. Move on with this new and improved formula!
Except people are moving away from this game, what’s up with that?
There is nothing wrong with vertical progression, i played a lot of games with vertical progression in the past, but the problem is when you add vertical progression in a game that was advertised without it (or is better to say, without a mandatory gear grind).
If someone tell you that a new drink is the thing you will love if you hate coke, and then the new drink taste EXACLTY like a coke, someone will surely love it, but the original buyers the ones that thrust on the advertise, have all the rights to be concerned.
This.
There is nothing wrong with vertical progression. It gives an illusion of “progress” and serves as a motivator for continued play for many. What is it? Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually and predominantly through the addition of a new tier of gear with higher stats. So, before the new tier all players are at power X. The new tier is introduced and everyone hops on the treadmill. When they get off they are all at power Y and can now do new content at power Y. There has been no change in relative power before or after the treadmill between players vs. other players or between players and environment. This is why it’s called a treadmill—the reality is no one has gone anywhere; they’ve just gone for a treadmill ride. It offers an illusion of progress and requires that you perform a grind to attain the new power level.
Again, nothing wrong with this. It’s worked for WoW for years. The problem is statements by Anet pre-release that assured players that GW2 was going to be a different MMO that wouldn’t have a gear grind. There’s the problem. Some of us have grinded our lives away for years and realize that the emperor really is naked—there is no progress in vertical progression—there’s no reason for a grind in an MMO. Some of us wanted that different MMO.
I’m horrified at the idea that a single instance is now the end-all be-all don’t-bother-doing-anything-else source of the best gear.
What a gorram trainwreck. A dull, repetitive, lazy, trainwreck.
If it were my game, I would have put a “Out of Order” sign on FotM’s until the high-end loot was dispersed properly around the world. How they left it going like this, tells me more then I want to know.
There should be an option to add how many zeros anyone prefer, to be added after the combat text numbers, and the stats numbers in tooltips and in the paperdoll window, completely independent from the gear one is wearing.
Vertical progression is fine, in some circumstances. Like if there is a set goal. For instance leveling. You get better every time you level, but there is a solid goal. Hitting level 80. Vertical progression with gear CAN work. Just not the way it’s done currently. The set goals are too temporary. The progression is too large. Take for example, the end game gear from WotLK, and the level 81 greens. They were SO much better. The difference was way too big.
I like getting better gear. I like seeing my progression on my character. Not just skins. Most major MMOs release too many new loot tables, too often. The improvements are too large and often too time consuming. They cause other players to fall behind very quickly.
The way I think vertical gear progression could work is say….a major expansion every year (or whatever long time frame). That expansion will have ONE new tier of gear (and whatever else mobs/skins/titles ect.). The new gear tier should be the new exotics (stat wise). Obviously it’d be more complicated should said expansion have the level cap raised. Even then I’d want to gear improvements to be enough to notice, but not enough to hinder people who don’t have that gear set. The new tier should be a bit more expensive (again, not enough that it will be a lot harder for new players to get it) than the previous tier. Those who have the previous will have the resoucres to spend on it. While those who don’t will either skip the previous tier and save for that newer one, or get the previous and not see themselves hindered. Obviously this is not a perfect fix, and there are details that need to be adressed. It is something I think could please people who like gear upgrades, while not making it hard on those who don’t.
Personally I’d like to see something like realm ranks in daoc… very difficult (think years or forever for most) to ding up but worthwhile. Maybe an extra trait slot at a certain level even but mostly a few cool abilities that you can trait instead of your usual.
Could make it as simple as few really high price skill point wise abilities that would take a while to collect them all but realitively easy to get your favorite.
they whant to do one set for lvl 80 and do all content whit that gear
Absolutely incorrect. Before ascended was introduced, I intended to collect multiple exotic gear sets so that I could try every trait build that interested me (I’m a thief, so condi dmg, crit, and even survivability with power/tough/vit). This was a long term, but obtainable goal, that I made for myself because I thoroughly enjoyed playing the character in every playstyle I tried. With the absurd grind for ascended gear, it’s now completely unrealistic for anyone with a life outside the game to do such a thing. What’s worse, if I log in to try to work toward my former goal, I feel like I’m just wasting time, as anything I obtain will be made increasingly sub-par as new ascended gear grinds are introduced. It’s lose/lose.
they whant to do one set for lvl 80 and do all content whit that gear
Absolutely incorrect. Before ascended was introduced, I intended to collect multiple exotic gear sets so that I could try every trait build that interested me (I’m a thief, so condi dmg, crit, and even survivability with power/tough/vit). This was a long term, but obtainable goal, that I made for myself because I thoroughly enjoyed playing the character in every playstyle I tried. With the absurd grind for ascended gear, it’s now completely unrealistic for anyone with a life outside the game to do such a thing. What’s worse, if I log in to try to work toward my former goal, I feel like I’m just wasting time, as anything I obtain will be made increasingly sub-par as new ascended gear grinds are introduced. It’s lose/lose.
This is, unfortunately, why I find myself increasingly less interested in logging back in as the days go by.
Pre-nov 15th patch I logged over 500 hours on my account. Post Nov15th patch I have added less than 3 to that
I wish more RPG’s would adopt a progression line like EVE online. Where the ONLY vertical progression is how many “0’s” you have in your wallet, and not how many “0’s” come after your weapon/stats.
What’s so bad about vertical progression? Stat Inflation. Look at WoW, nuff said.
This thread sums up my view on vertical progression pretty well.
This is the most important one for me: “… those who want an MMOG where competition between players is not permanently skewed by never-ending gear score differentials”. I just wish they would at least remove never ending progression for WvW, maybe by implementing a version of it that utilizes the sPvP scaling and gear system.
