Guild Wars 2

VakarisJ.5619:

I actually did.

You said that this theoretical person couldn’t complete this JP to save his life.
I compared it to a man who couldn’t breathe to save his life.
You said you’re determined to take away one’s crutch, I compared it to taking an other one’s crutch.

You know.

You’re pretty much required to breathe to live.

Whereas I don’t think your character will permanently die if you don’t do JPs.

VakarisJ.5619:

Really, in the end what does it matter if some guy, who’s struggling with a JP uses jump shot to finally get that achievement after hours of attempts at the simplest of jumps? It doesn’t harm you or me or anyone for that matter, yet it aids that person in doing something he would’ve likely never achieved.

As I said, we obviously reside in two different philosophical camps.

But still, I’m glad that you agree to my original post that Engies to enjoy a distinct advantage in JPs.

Ursan.7846:

VakarisJ.5619:

I actually did.

You said that this theoretical person couldn’t complete this JP to save his life.
I compared it to a man who couldn’t breathe to save his life.
You said you’re determined to take away one’s crutch, I compared it to taking an other one’s crutch.

You know.

You’re pretty much required to breathe to live.

Whereas I don’t think your character will permanently die if you don’t do JPs.

VakarisJ.5619:

Really, in the end what does it matter if some guy, who’s struggling with a JP uses jump shot to finally get that achievement after hours of attempts at the simplest of jumps? It doesn’t harm you or me or anyone for that matter, yet it aids that person in doing something he would’ve likely never achieved.

As I said, we obviously reside in two different philosophical camps.

But still, I’m glad that you agree to my original post that Engies to enjoy a distinct advantage in JPs.

Didn’t we agree to disagree just one post above? It seems like you’ve gone back and began repeating your self like a broken radio.
Just to remind you: I did state that I not agree that engies have a distinct broad advantage about the whole JP system. Only the leap system, which is counterbalanced by intensive swiftness micro. Keep in mind that if your swiftness fails in the middle of a jump — you’re screwed.

VakarisJ.5619:

Didn’t we agree to disagree just one post above? It seems like you’ve gone back and began repeating your self like a broken radio.
Just to remind you: I did state that I not agree that engies have a distinct broad advantage about the whole JP system. Only the leap system, which is counterbalanced by intensive swiftness micro.

We disagreed on whether baddies deserve a crutch or not.
We agree that Engi leap is a crutch.
So we agree that there is an imbalance in classes.

PS, you’ve yet to explain to me why lack perma swiftness is a disadvantage?

Ursan.7846:

VakarisJ.5619:

Didn’t we agree to disagree just one post above? It seems like you’ve gone back and began repeating your self like a broken radio.
Just to remind you: I did state that I not agree that engies have a distinct broad advantage about the whole JP system. Only the leap system, which is counterbalanced by intensive swiftness micro.

We disagreed on whether baddies deserve a crutch or not.
We agree that Engi leap is a crutch.
So we agree that there is an imbalance in classes.

PS, you’ve yet to explain to me why lack perma swiftness is a disadvantage?

VakarisJ.5619:

Keep in mind that if your swiftness fails in the middle of a jump — you’re screwed.

It’s easy to overlook the end of swiftness when you’re trying to get the most jumps out of your boons as you can, aside from that, if you can’t keep up perma-swiftness in some JPs that rely on time for you to get from point A to B, you can’t always sit back and wait for it to recharge.

Oh and I stated many times in this discussion already that imperfect balance doesn’t mean that something’s worse outright. Some classes excel in some areas, others — in others.

VakarisJ.5619:

It’s easy to overlook the end of swiftness when you’re trying to get the most jumps out of your boons as you can, aside from that, if you can’t keep up perma-siftness in some JPs that rely on time for you to get from point A to B, you can’t always sit back and wait for it to recharge.

Ugh.

Why do you need swiftness in jumping puzzles?

If you fear you’re going to underjump a jump.

Tell me, in which jumping puzzle will you hit a stretch of nothing but long jumps, AND can’t wait for the recharge of your swiftness?

There may be JPs in which there’s long stretches of long jumps, but I can think of none in which you can’t stay and wait for the CD.

There’s only one JP aside from Halloween/Wintersday that is timed, in Southsun. There, swiftness is pointless because the platform is so close, you have no need to swiftness.

VakarisJ.5619:

Oh and I stated many times in this discussion already that imperfect balance doesn’t mean that something’s worse outright. Some classes excel in some areas, others — in others.

I’m glad we can agree that there’s an imbalance.

VakarisJ.5619:

Ursan.7846:

It is also imbalanced in hugely favors engineers and mesmers.

False.

Oh a funny flipside, if the JP was actually timed, then it’ll shift the balance to favor eles (perma swiftness) and thief/ranger (25% speed signets). So yea, still imbalance. I’m pretty sure Anet considered that when they made Halloween/Wintersday puzzles have no class skills.

All holiday-jp <3
From the normal ones I really like

• Conundrum Cubed
• Spekks’s Laboratory

as these require some speed =)
Also I like the jp in eternal battleground since it is sooo huge and has different phases

He is most likely one of the players who doesn’t want to have to have to PvP in any of the WvW jump puzzles…..

Nope, I don’t complete the JP in wvw for badges, I kill people, cap camps , kill tower lords etc in wvw for my badges- never completed a wvw JP (went in one with guild group..but left as a call went up for people to defend a keep we held).

For the dev:

The problem with JP’s in wvw is they take up queue spots for people who want to do wvw and help their server win the wvw. Jp’s contribute nothing to this, especially when you get an entire pve guild playing around in there for hours ‘having fun’ and being rude to wvw players who are politely asking them to leave so we don’t lose fully upgraded t3 towers, camps, garrisons, etc.

When you have spent piles of gold and hours of time as a guild and a server in upgrading and defending in wvw only to see EVERYTHING lost as a result of 30 people being in the JP and laughing while the map turns the enemy’s colour then you will understand why there is so much friction between wvw players and JP campers.

Some will argue that the siege they obtain from the end chest ‘helps the server’ but in reality most siege is bought and used by the commanders and their guilds using badges/gold obtained from fighting in wvw. If JP ‘rs really wanted to help the server they are on, then their guild leader could collect all the siege from his members, and meet the commander and pass it over to them. The funniest argument from JP campers is ’we’re helping by preventing the other server getting free siege’. Really? Allowing them to get badges from cap camps, towers and farm badges from the outmanned wvw players which they can turn into siege..that’s helping?

In tight matches (before server transfers became costly) it wasn’t unusual to see a guild or several suddenly pop up that you hadn’t seen before and fill a JP with 10- 20-30 players and then remain there all day while your server loses points and loses the whole week’s match up, and then disappear again and never be seen again.

The design of the JP’s mean that before they removed siege from being able to place in them you would have a small team from one server that could hold the chest spot forever, especially if they build the siege on top of the chest, meaning it would take people even longer to complete and hence fill up even more space that could be better used by a wvw player contributing to the battle.

By all means keep the pvp element of the JP’s that are in wvw, but remove them to a separate instance please! I’d even be tempted to go in there as an alternative to wvw on occasion, knowing that I wasn’t harming my server’s chances in wvw by being in the JP.

I guess it comes down to this in wvw: are you selfish and just out to help yourself (grab JP chest, grab badges, don’t contribute to server but be happy with the world buffs) or are you in wvw to join with the community and help fight the enemy, and realise that helping the server and having fun and some epic battles/solo fights/whatever helps the server is what wvw is all about.

In fairness dev, I’m sure there are plenty of people that find enjoyment in the jump puzzles you create, so carry on, but try and keep them as an alternative rather than something that has to be done, and let’s hope the other teams that are working on the wider issues can get things done too, otherwise from an outsiders point of view the ‘new content’ will seem more jump orientated than it actually is as people wait for fixes to the other areas of the game.

I love all the puzzles and challenges around the world. You guys are doing an amazing job there.

If i had to choose one… that may be the eternal battlegrounds puzzle. I’m not a fan of pvp and the first time i did that puzzle it was when my server had the whole map conquered xD. I loved the exploration of the puzzle (without people camping or disturbing). It took me a lot of time because i didn’t watch a guide or something. The part where you have to use the torch… i love it.

Maybe the ones i like most are the larger ones. Malchor’s one was great too… and the hidden garden (loved the design). Would be great to see more puzzles where you have to explore, interact with the scenery or even resolve riddles, not just jump and jump

Ursan.7846:

Ugh.

Why do you need swiftness in jumping puzzles?

If you fear you’re going to underjump a jump.

Tell me, in which jumping puzzle will you hit a stretch of nothing but long jumps, AND can’t wait for the recharge of your swiftness?

There may be JPs in which there’s long stretches of long jumps, but I can think of none in which you can’t stay and wait for the CD.

There’s only one JP aside from Halloween/Wintersday that is timed, in Southsun. There, swiftness is pointless because the platform is so close, you have no need to swiftness.

Swiftness and boons that boost speed mean you have more control over how you jump. Without swiftness, if the jump isn’t perfect, in most cases you’ll fall either to your death or the start of the puzzle. Swiftness in Southsun also allows you to bypass some of the timed platforms, making your life a lot easier.

Aside from Southsun, you can’t always wait for your swiftness to recharge in the 4 JPs found in WvW, where you often find your self trying to outrun/outjump some invaders/defenders while doing the puzzle.

I can’t remember the name, but there’s a puzzle in Metrica (I think, somewhere in western Maguuma if I’m wrong) that has you jump across disappearing hard-light platforms. 12 seconds of swiftness isn’t always enough there to make from one safe point to the other. While it isn’t necessary, it greatly lowers your chances of falling.

Griffonrook run is yet an other example, where it isn’t always possible to find a griffonless corner to rest in, in addition to the timed bomb that’s rushing you forward. Eggs may help you extend swiftness, but only if you’re lucky to be near one when it’s spawned.

Ursan.7846:

I’m glad we can agree that there’s an imbalance.

You keep repeating that as if it makes your point any more valid. I stated that perfect, mirror-like balance is detrimental to the game. Otherwise there would only be one profession and no choice in the utilities you could use or traits you could pick, causing everyone to be boilerplate.

VakarisJ.5619:

Ursan.7846:

It is also imbalanced in hugely favors engineers and mesmers.

False.

By that I meant that mesmers, by them selves, are not favored at all and that engineers aren’t favored because of downfalls in areas that’s not jump shot.

Ursan.7846:

Oh a funny flipside, if the JP was actually timed, then it’ll shift the balance to favor eles (perma swiftness) and thief/ranger (25% speed signets). So yea, still imbalance. I’m pretty sure Anet considered that when they made Halloween/Wintersday puzzles have no class skills.

Elementalists, rangers, thieves and necromancers have 25% speed signets. That’s everything you need, because 33% speed doesn’t give that much more of a boost in comparison.
Warriors can have perma-swiftness by combining the warhorn and signet of rage.
Guardians by using their utilities and staff.
Engineers by spamming medkit (every 5 seconds) with speedy kits and stimulants.
Mesmers — no way. Temporal curtain is their only swiftness ability and it doesn’t affect you unless your swiftness buff runs out completely (it does not stack duration). It lasts for 12 seconds and then there’s a 13 second wait until you can use it again. Yet they do have portals…

VakarisJ.5619:

Swiftness and boons that boost speed mean you have more control over how you jump.

Lol.

Nope.

All swiftness does is to allow you to jump farther. If that….is your definition of “more control,” sure. But would you seriously use swiftness to “control your jump” when jumping on the planks, in say, the EB keep vistas? (where it’s INCREDIBLY easy to overjump)

PS wasn’t aware of any boons aside from swiftness that boosted speed. You should get your terminology straight!

VakarisJ.5619:

By that I meant that mesmers, by them selves, are not favored at all and that engineers aren’t favored because of downfalls in areas that’s not jump shot.

1. You’re right on the mesmers. I worded that wrong, and spawned a whole another argument which we agree to disagree on. (The need for a CRUTCH. Which swiftness also is, entertainingly enough)
2. When I think about it, your original post is actually right. Engies don’t have a huge advantage if the jumping puzzle is timed.
3. None of this changes the fact that introducing class imbalace by having class skills in the jumping puzzle to end all jumping puzzles is stupid. And Anet agrees with the way they implemented Mad King/Wintersday, and will do in this new future JP.

You admit that using class skills introduces imbalance. In the one area in the game which SKILL matters a lot (and how good your rig is, I guess), why introduce these imbalances at all?

Ursan.7846:

VakarisJ.5619:

Swiftness and boons that boost speed mean you have more control over how you jump.

Lol.

Nope.

All swiftness does is to allow you to jump farther. If that….is your definition of “more control,” sure. But would you seriously use swiftness to “control your jump” when jumping on the planks, in say, the EB keep vistas? (where it’s INCREDIBLY easy to overjump)

By allowing you to jump farther it makes it possible to jump farther away from the edge and still make the jump. Also, it allows you to say in air longer and shift the direction of your jump faster, allowing you to position yourself better.
After 800 hours of GW2, I only overjumped maybe… twice total. I’ve been using something that improves speed almost 90% of that playtime.

Ursan.7846:

PS wasn’t aware of any boons aside from swiftness that boosted speed. You should get your terminology straight!

Oh yeah, you see there are these things called signets and traits… But who am I kidding? You’re only nitpicking.

Ursan.7846:

3. None of this changes the fact that introducing class imbalace by having class skills in the jumping puzzle to end all jumping puzzles is stupid. And Anet agrees with the way they implemented Mad King/Wintersday, and will do in this new future JP.

They’ve only done a few JPs like that so far and I do hope that this experiment fails or at least that they don’t use it all the time, instead making JPs that have multiple routes and actually require profession-based quirks to access those routes.
If nothing else, such an approach would get players more familiar with the abilities at their disposal.

Ursan.7846:

You admit that using class skills introduces imbalance. In the one area in the game which SKILL matters a lot (and how good your rig is, I guess), why introduce these imbalances at all?

Variety.
If they want to take 20 minutes to complete a JP by using a crutch — let them.
I’ll just complete it in 2 minutes without using (or occasionally using) that crutch.
Skill still matters, but it’s just a matter of time until you get it anyway. Trial & error can be substituted with long cooldown precision-jump abilities like the jump shot without ruining the game.

Wayfarer’s is still my number 1 – it is so fun!

VakarisJ.5619:

Variety.
If they want to take 20 minutes to complete a JP by using a crutch — let them.
I’ll just complete it in 2 minutes without using (or occasionally using) that crutch.
Skill still matters, but it’s just a matter of time until you get it anyway. Trial & error can be substituted with long cooldown precision-jump abilities like the jump shot without ruining the game.

Right. JPs without class skills separate those with skills from those without the skills. Which is GOOD.

Why is certain classes having advantage over others “Variety?”

Well in the strictest sense of the term, it is “variety” I suppose. It’s gonna be more of a JP class tier list though. Which is stupid. Why introduce class-based imbalance in a mode that strives to promote player skill? So different players can have fun coming up with different ways of having swiftness?

Wintersday’ JP had it right. No class skills, everyone had swiftness. Boom, everyone’s on a fair ground. Perfect.

Anyways, I think we just have to agree to disagree. We’ve drawn this argument long enough, I think, and it’s quite off topic. For that, I apologize.

Ursan.7846:

VakarisJ.5619:

Variety.
If they want to take 20 minutes to complete a JP by using a crutch — let them.
I’ll just complete it in 2 minutes without using (or occasionally using) that crutch.
Skill still matters, but it’s just a matter of time until you get it anyway. Trial & error can be substituted with long cooldown precision-jump abilities like the jump shot without ruining the game.

Right. JPs without class skills separate those with skills from those without the skills. Which is GOOD.

Why is certain classes having advantage over others “Variety?”

Well in the strictest sense of the term, it is “variety” I suppose. It’s gonna be more of a JP class tier list though. Which is stupid. Why introduce class-based imbalance in a mode that strives to promote player skill? So different players can have fun coming up with different ways of having swiftness?

Wintersday’ JP had it right. No class skills, everyone had swiftness. Boom, everyone’s on a fair ground. Perfect.

Anyways, I think we just have to agree to disagree. We’ve drawn this argument long enough, I think, and it’s quite off topic. For that, I apologize.

There are different ways to promote player skill. You don’t have to make everyone equal and boring in order to achieve it. It’s called asymmetric balance and it could be seen very successfully implemented into GW2 and it’s JPs.

As for the discussion — it’s been (mostly) nice discussing the subject with you.

VakarisJ.5619:

There are different ways to promote player skill. You don’t have to make everyone equal and boring in order to achieve it. It’s called asymmetric balance and it could be seen very successfully implemented into GW2 and it’s JPs.

As for the discussion — it’s been (mostly) nice discussing the subject with you.

You should participate in the TC jumping puzzles contest =D

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/17xaht/first_official_jumping_puzzle_tournament/

Victory.2879:

The problem with JP’s in wvw is they take up queue spots for people who want to do wvw and help their server win the wvw. Jp’s contribute nothing to this, especially when you get an entire pve guild playing around in there for hours ‘having fun’ and being rude to wvw players who are politely asking them to leave so we don’t lose fully upgraded t3 towers, camps, garrisons, etc.

When you have spent piles of gold and hours of time as a guild and a server in upgrading and defending in wvw only to see EVERYTHING lost as a result of 30 people being in the JP and laughing while the map turns the enemy’s colour then you will understand why there is so much friction between wvw players and JP campers.

Some will argue that the siege they obtain from the end chest ‘helps the server’ but in reality most siege is bought and used by the commanders and their guilds using badges/gold obtained from fighting in wvw. If JP ‘rs really wanted to help the server they are on, then their guild leader could collect all the siege from his members, and meet the commander and pass it over to them. The funniest argument from JP campers is ’we’re helping by preventing the other server getting free siege’. Really? Allowing them to get badges from cap camps, towers and farm badges from the outmanned wvw players which they can turn into siege..that’s helping?

In tight matches (before server transfers became costly) it wasn’t unusual to see a guild or several suddenly pop up that you hadn’t seen before and fill a JP with 10- 20-30 players and then remain there all day while your server loses points and loses the whole week’s match up, and then disappear again and never be seen again.

The design of the JP’s mean that before they removed siege from being able to place in them you would have a small team from one server that could hold the chest spot forever, especially if they build the siege on top of the chest, meaning it would take people even longer to complete and hence fill up even more space that could be better used by a wvw player contributing to the battle.

By all means keep the pvp element of the JP’s that are in wvw, but remove them to a separate instance please! I’d even be tempted to go in there as an alternative to wvw on occasion, knowing that I wasn’t harming my server’s chances in wvw by being in the JP.

I guess it comes down to this in wvw: are you selfish and just out to help yourself (grab JP chest, grab badges, don’t contribute to server but be happy with the world buffs) or are you in wvw to join with the community and help fight the enemy, and realise that helping the server and having fun and some epic battles/solo fights/whatever helps the server is what wvw is all about.

In fairness dev, I’m sure there are plenty of people that find enjoyment in the jump puzzles you create, so carry on, but try and keep them as an alternative rather than something that has to be done, and let’s hope the other teams that are working on the wider issues can get things done too, otherwise from an outsiders point of view the ‘new content’ will seem more jump orientated than it actually is as people wait for fixes to the other areas of the game.

Post of the year?

Victory.2879:

By all means keep the pvp element of the JP’s that are in wvw, but remove them to a separate instance please!

This is an elegant solution to this problem, I don’t think many would argue against it.

EB JP is my favorite to answer the original question.

Heck, I will do Baby path just for lolz. Thanks for keeping JP fans happy

Victory is exaggerating. Gandara has never lost a matchup because some JP camping guild sat on our server, and I’ve never seen a guild of 20 let alone 30 players sitting in a puzzle. Saying that JP guilds are the cause for losing matchups is just making excuses, which I hope our server doesn’t have to resort to. Camping groups of over 5 is quite a rarity, and if they’re impeding enemy players then it doesn’t give any one server a disadvantage anyways. If a guild wants to hop on a server and do something useless like camping the puzzle or GvG, then they will. When you get more rewards from playing on the map in WvW, then laugh right back at the JP campers.

Like I said, I’ve never seen any guild cause real problems by not playing WvW while in WvW, and restricting the game mode isn’t a solution to a guild intent on doing its own thing. However, if you choose your objectives based on the players you have working with you and the opposition you face, then that sort of thing will never even bother you. Conceivably we would be better off if only organized guilds with fully geared level 80 characters were allowed to play when there were long queues, but we don’t expect that and it’s something we have to work around.

Part of this comes down to the whole PvE in WvW issue that has quite a bit of opposition. Whether it’s world completion or the puzzles, there are many who think that WvW would be better off without PvE elements, neglecting to realize that it is the PvE elements that draw in new players, giving them a motivation to participate and hopefully learn the game. This is supposed to be a cooperative game, and there’s a lot to WvW that new players won’t understand when they enter, so reach out to them. Take a look at your own attitude before you start judging others, you may have invested a lot of gold and time into the map but that doesn’t mean you own it more than anyone else.

Hands down the Clock Tower. I REALLY wish they’d add it back to the game. Put some dumb reward at the end or none at all, I don’t care – that JP was so kitten FUN. The immense challenge to get to the end, seeing if anyone makes it with you was so thrilling and exciting, and my friend and I racing to see who reaches the top first was probably one of my favorite moments playing the game.

I really wish that the Christmas JP came even close to the amount of fun I had with this one, but I was really disappointed in the end.

Outside of that one, I really like the EB JP. I’m one of those sadistic people who enjoys the fights that go on in there. Trying to solve how to get pass the enemy when they are camping it can be really fun, and then turning it around and camping them is more of a reward than the actual chest at the end. I do have a policy in there to never attack unless if I’m attacked first, that way I don’t interrupt people who just wanna get it over with and leave the battleground.

Josh Foreman.8250:

I anticipated that most people would want to be their characters, and wouldn’t want to lose the look they’ve worked so hard to achieve, so I made sure we would not transform you into something else. Just don’t expect to be your normal size.

That is not new! :P

I’ve done maybe half the Jump Puzzles in the game, maybe more than half, I know I’m missing at least a few. My favorite jump puzzle is probably the one at Morgan’s Spiral, it’s simple, but feels pretty epic jumping from rock to vine getting higher and higher, it’s like Jack and the Beanstalk. I also love the Chaos Crystal one that you keep shifting forms, and the pirate one was cool too.

I really appreciate the simple ones, like there’s this one in Ascalon somewhere that’s just a single building, mostly stock components, only about 30ft high or so, yet you have to circle around it a specific way, and there’s a chest and achievement at the top. There’s no indication that it’s a jump puzzle, I didn’t know, but I just looked at it and thought, “I could climb that kitten,” and so I did, and there was a chest and achievement for my efforts.

I don’t particularly like the ones that force timing, and I hate the ones with difficult enemies, because anything you can’t solo is pretty much a dead end at this point in the game, and I REALLY hate the ones with tons and tons of tricky jumps (quantity over quality) that if you mess one up then you have to restart the whole thing, but I really like the ones that are about a reasonable amount of cleverly placed jumps.

Any idiot can string a whole bunch of tiny objects in a row and force you to jump 5ft, 10ft, 7ft, 9ft, 6ft, etc. ad nauseum until you get to the end, but the fun ones are where you get to a dead end, and then you have to look around and go “well maybe if I jump to that thing, then I can get up that, and . . . oh, ok, that’s where you go!”

And there should definitely be safetynets, so that when you get past a particularly difficult portion, if you screw it up, you don’t have to redo that portion again and can move straight on to the next part. Spekk’s lab did this quite well, letting you teleport back to each checkpoint as you passed, instead of the system used in the Clocktower, Snow Globe, or Southsun Cove ones, where if you missed one jump near the end you had to redo the entire thing.

That reminds me, I also love the one on EBG that doesn’t have a chest or achievement, but where you can place trebuchets that hit Langor Gulch, Quentin Lake, and the valley keep’s outer walls.

I liked both Mad Kings and Winter Wonderland, the skipping stones in Southsun Cove is cool too ^^

Josh Foreman.8250:

Victory.2879:

The problem with JP’s in wvw is they take up queue spots for people who want to do wvw and help their server win the wvw.

Ok. Thanks for the cogent explanation. I’ll look into counter-arguments and pass this along to someone who has the power to actually do something about it.

A pretty standard counter-argument is the jumping puzzle gives two siege weapons to every character that completes it, making it incredibly useful in WvW. You camp the puzzle to keep the enemy teams from completing it, while porting up your teammates, giving your team an advantage in the amount of siege you can easily put on the field.

Most WvW players don’t use badges, gold, or influence for siege. We save it up from puzzle completions. It’s an incredibly valuable and useful part of WvW to hold, even if it doesn’t directly show up in points.

If the point was to get rid of anyone that isn’t helping out the team in the best way possible, the first place to start would be getting rid of sub-80 characters, the skill challenges, and the environment NPCs (to remove those horrible people that go to WvW to complete their variety daily).

Or just keep it all there because it’s fun. Whichever.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Victory.2879:

If they are OPTIONAL, then remove them from wvw as they have no part in it, block real wvw players from getting in and are the cause of a lot of friction between JP2 fans and wvw players.

I’m not super familiar with how the JP in WvW interacts with the rest of the map, so I can’t really speak to that. I am not an expert on all things GW2 or even JP. I’m speaking from my understanding of the subjects. I would be interested in hearing more about this dynamic though.

If I had to pick up a problem in the WvW JP, it wouldn’t surely be the queuing – but that’s because I’m watching it from the perspective of a non-PvP player. From what I know, WvW is intended as a kind of blend between PvP and PvE. Problem is, as a lover of the PvE environment, I also love JPs, which are a tipical PvE content. Yet, in the WvW JPs I must constantly think about the menace of other players coming in and killing me. The JP becomes a stressful experience, not an enjoyable one.

(not THAT true: JPs are the part of the game I love the most AND, at the same time, that frustrates me the most ;-D)

This, by the way, is also my strongest argument about map completion in WvW: PvE players do not like this at all, I guarantee you, and yet map completion is what I would qualify as a tipical PvE achievement.

VakarisJ.5619:

Mesmers — no way. Temporal curtain is their only swiftness ability

… and chaos storm. But of course also doesn’t stack because ground AoE swiftness never stacks.

RedGlow.2715:

If I had to pick up a problem in the WvW JP, it wouldn’t surely be the queuing – but that’s because I’m watching it from the perspective of a non-PvP player. From what I know, WvW is intended as a kind of blend between PvP and PvE. Problem is, as a lover of the PvE environment, I also love JPs, which are a tipical PvE content. Yet, in the WvW JPs I must constantly think about the menace of other players coming in and killing me. The JP becomes a stressful experience, not an enjoyable one.

I like both jumping puzzles and WvW so I have no issues with this side myself, but every time I go to one of them, almost everybody I get close to immediately does the /no emote. So I’m assuming people don’t want to pvp in there in general.

As for queue times, the server I play on is classified as a medium population one but still there are long queues during prime time. Lucky for me prime time is when I play with PvE oriented friends, but guilds are having trouble getting enough people in during their main play time to do anything. 10 or 20 people in jumping puzzles are already enough to keep a small-medium sized guild raid out. Sure, jumping puzzles aren’t likely to be the only thing that blocks queue spaces for people who actually want to WvW but they’re easily a significant part of the problem.

This, by the way, is also my strongest argument about map completion in WvW: PvE players do not like this at all, I guarantee you, and yet map completion is what I would qualify as a tipical PvE achievement.

I agree with this as well, again from the point of view of someone who actually likes WvW and has 100% world completion. But not only are all players forced to go to WvW for their world completion, you also have to spend a significant amount of time there or keep coming back for weeks. The ranking algorithm is designed so that if it works perfectly, servers tend to keep the same colour or two out of the three, while they’ll also be unable to faceroll the other side. So the better that algorithm actually works the worse this gets and PvE focused players are affected much more than PvP players.

World completion would be such a nice achievement for pure PvE or casual players who don’t want to go after a legendary, but because of the WvW maps being required, it’s not.

From the point of view of WvW players, at least people after their map completion are willing to fight. But then they also like to spam in chat about taking over one specific keep or tower they still need for their completion no matter how unlikely it is that your server could actually get in.

Anyway, BTT: I really like almost all the jumping puzzles. Hard to call a favourite. Basically I love the fact that they are even a thing in a game where the genre is pretty much full of games that only offer fetch quests and grinding.

I finished all the Jumping achievments yesterday.
there are so many Puzzles i like, i cant really choose.
Really nice ones were Fawcetts Bounty, Griffonhook run, hidden garden, scavenger chasm and only zuhl. At the end of only zuhl i found a necro who was really happy to see me waiting at the giant troll event. we fought the troll together and killed him. After that i talked a bit with him, until i realised he wasn’t in a guild. So in the end he joined our guild

I’m sure that i forgot many other great puzzles, though that were the ones that came to my mind.
Some other puzzles that were a little different, but i liked them:
coddlers cove: Man that took me an hour..i thought beams were hard, but those small balloons, were quite different. A good puzzle that forces you to learn to adjust your jump length. Which dev made that puzzle?

Chaos crystal cavern: That effect that makes you zoom out completely…please add it to the game…makes the game so much nicer if you can zoom further out. The speed effect was faster than swiftness wasn’t it? That was also a quite interesting one. the puzzle also looked really nice.

But my absolute favorite was the Clocktower…i loved it at first..than i started to hate it, after i wasnt able to do it…took me 3 hours to complete…than i didnt do it for a day…i got bored after some time, so i started doing it again…and i couldnt stop….i was doing the puzzle nonstop…it ended with me farming all 4 chests in one run, until the event ended.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Victory.2879:

The problem with JP’s in wvw is they take up queue spots for people who want to do wvw and help their server win the wvw.

Ok. Thanks for the cogent explanation. I’ll look into counter-arguments and pass this along to someone who has the power to actually do something about it.

The chest from the JPs in WvW gives you 2 blueprints and 5 badges (those can be used to buy additional blueprints).
Blueprints are certainly stuff you need in WvW, so there is a reason for the JPs in WvW. If players choose to hinder invaders/defenders from getting to the chest, they are taking out potential siege equipment that is used against their server and depending on how many encounters they are hindering to get there, they are actually taking out a whole group that can’t do any other stuff for their server that time.

If I’m taking my chest (with the 2 half keys) it takes me less than 5 minutes if nobody is hindering me… 5 minutes for 2 blueprints + 5 badges (additional blueprints if I so desire) is a good thing and can help your server out for sure, if used properly!

These are good reasons in my opinion for having those JPs implemented in the WvW maps!

damny.9342:

VakarisJ.5619:

Mesmers — no way. Temporal curtain is their only swiftness ability

… and chaos storm. But of course also doesn’t stack because ground AoE swiftness never stacks.

In that case you might as well mention the signet of inspiration as well.
I didn’t count it towards 24/7 swiftness due to the non-stacking nature and randomness.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Apolyon.6937:

And even if it is not a JP, the labyrinth in Flame Temple Tombs in Diessa Plateau is a very good one.

Uh… I made Diessa Plateau and I don’t know what you’re referring to. Is it new content?

In Diessa there is a portal in “Incendio Templum” that transfers you to an area under the “Flame Temple Tombs”. There you have to fight a few Charr and solve some puzzles, like using a statue’s head as a bullet, or using bubbles for turning off some gargoyle-like flame throwers under water… At the end there is a Charr boss with his chest

This is not a jumping puzzle, is more like a mini dungeon, but all the small puzzles inside make it a great experience Meeting there with random people and trying to figure out how to progress was great.

Victory.2879:

By all means keep the pvp element of the JP’s that are in wvw, but remove them to a separate instance please! I’d even be tempted to go in there as an alternative to wvw on occasion, knowing that I wasn’t harming my server’s chances in wvw by being in the JP.

There are two ways that i can see this work:
1. make 1 different map that gives access to all JP:
This would mean that all JP will be independent from the actual control on the maps. Everyone can join the puzzle without having to fight your way to the access. This would probably increase the number of people doing the JP and making it more competitive. Control inside the JP will possibly have a bigger impact on WvW than it already has. it would be a campers paradise. Casual players and bad jumpers will avoid them even more than they already do, since it will be hard to complete if your world doesnt have control inside the JP or if you arent part of a bigger group.

2. Making JP portals inside the WvW maps:
kinda like the EB puzzle, the Borderlands puzzle will be reached by running into a portal on the map, that is located on the Homeworld side of each borderland (same place as the puzzle currently is) the portal could be behind the waterfall for example.
This would mean that all the puzzles (especially each borderland JP) will be still influenced of the control on the map. If your server is in control of the access area, than you will have it easier in the JP. But now we have the problem…if you want to leave the JP, you might be in a queue again. Since you won’t have a reserved slot in the different zones anymore (that would defy the purpose of seperated JP instances). So doing a JP during peak hours to get your siege, will have the possibility of you having to queue up for a long time again.

your idea is good though, but there are some issues that have to be considered. It is not a completely clean cut without consequences (like it seems to be at first).

I got a mancrush on Josh Foreman for making the jumping puzzles, my favourite was of course, the Clock Tower. But since the Clock Tower is no in the game at the moment, I think I have to stick with Eternal Battleground, I love the feeling of not being 100% safe since enemies can attack you when you least suspect it.

Keep up the good work, create the mother of all jumping puzzles, make it dangerous, make it scary, make me fear it when I walk into it, but still the urge to complete it. I want to feel the same when I completed the Clock Tower.

I will show you what we the players are capable of! We will tear your jumping puzzle inside and out, and explore every little corner!

Say hello to the Team from me.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Rising Dusk.2408:

This one that you’re working on.. I suspect you cannot talk much about it, but can you say whether it will be for a currently existing zone or for an as-of-yet unannounced zone? Is it themed for a specific holiday, or is it more general purpose?

Everything about it is brand new. I mean… everything. So it’s going to take a while. Give it a couple months.

I’m really looking forward to this new JP ( and the new map?)
Keep up the good work!

Just logging to say Thank You Josh Foreman for adding these jumping challenges into the game, its so rare to see an MMO do it and they are extremely fun to explore

The only thing I would like to see if some waypoint markers to the puzzles, I wish I didnt have to minimize the game and open the WIKI to see where I need to go to explore a new JP.

My favorite still is the clock tower. It took the longest of all the JP’s for me, but it felt amazing to finish it.
I’d like to know Josh, if the area in Sparkfly Fen near the Point of Interest and Vista The Tower of Modius that you gain access to through Verarium Delves is going to be a JP later?
I’m not online right now to provide a screenshot but what I came across was a rich platnium with a veteran guarding it, then some bushes to the side that were hiding a cave with what looked like a crumbling fort inside that didnt have anything inside.

Thank you Josh for all the amazing work you & everyone have put into these JP’s, ME LOVE YALL LONG TIME.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Victory.2879:

The problem with JP’s in wvw is they take up queue spots for people who want to do wvw and help their server win the wvw.

Ok. Thanks for the cogent explanation. I’ll look into counter-arguments and pass this along to someone who has the power to actually do something about it.

Always are the ppl in the jp the excuse for loosing the fight… I cannot hear it anymore… Strange thing is time to argue those ppl have enough. I dont have that time if I fight for my server. And the blueprints they are collecting like there is no tomorrow… If you organize a jp port rush instead complaining only you could save a lot of time and ressources. Also the opposite will also have people in there, I think it is mostly even fair. So relax, it is just a game. :-)

Mad-King’s Clocktower…nothing else compares, imo

I don’t know why, but I generally prefer jumping puzzles when the route’s fairly obvious but the setting is interesting – obscure routes can frustrate sometimes, particularly when I have to leap to tiny ledges-that-may-not-be-ledges. I’ve liked all the puzzles I’ve tried so far despite this though, so it’s by no means a ‘no-go’ clause for me.

With that in mind, my favourites so far have been Winter Wonderland (the setting was so abstracted compared to the fairly seamless nature of many other JPs, and it got me in a holiday mood), Tribulation Rift Scaffolding (having the constant battle below was neat, and finding the route upwards without realising I was doing a puzzle until I reached the top was fun), Spekk’s Laboratory (interesting setting, forgiving combination of timed jumps and checkpoints) and Morgan’s Leap (because plants).

I’m surprised how much I enjoy the jumping puzzles. I had the feeling that they probably wouldn’t work, because I’ve been spoiled by platforming with wall running/jumping, hanging and other acrobatics. But the way that the puzzles blend into their surroundings, meaning that I can transition from wandering around to entering a puzzle without realising it has helped my immersion and I appreciate the effort people have gone to while being restricted to fairly rudimentary mechanics.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Victory.2879:

If they are OPTIONAL, then remove them from wvw as they have no part in it, block real wvw players from getting in and are the cause of a lot of friction between JP2 fans and wvw players.

I’m not super familiar with how the JP in WvW interacts with the rest of the map, so I can’t really speak to that. I am not an expert on all things GW2 or even JP. I’m speaking from my understanding of the subjects. I would be interested in hearing more about this dynamic though.

Victory.2879:

Hell, take up my suggestion from months ago and take all the JP’s OUT of wvw and make it it’s own area with it’s own queue system and I’m sure the fanboys here would all love you for it (and the wvw community would love you for it too). Imagine a whole instance full of your favourite JP’s in a pvp area!

That’s not something I have any power over. As I said, tell me more about how JP in WvW is ruining your experience. I’d honestly like to know.

Victory.2879:

For something that less than 1% of devs time was spent on there certainly seems to be a lot more of them and even more being developed while it been X months and most if not all of the wvw issues still exist.

The reason more of them are coming out is because it’s something the Map Artists can create relatively quickly in small areas that are low-impact and low-risk for creating new bugs and mucking with currently stable systems. I know that we have a good sized team that is dedicated to WvW, so it’s not like anything is being ignored in favor of making JPs.

Victory.2879:

Maybe the JP team should work on wvw and the wvw team can play with designing JP’s, then we might see some results on wvw.

It doesn’t really work that way. All of our teams have people from all disciplines working on them. There is no JP team. Unless you count my tiny little team working on this short special project. But there is no single team that makes all the JPs. Like I said, they get put in by Map Artists as the inspiration and availability permits. They are not a priority, nor a main feature.

Victory.2879:

but on the whole GW2 is not about jumping at all.=== so then they didn’t appear in Xmas event as a major part of it, or most other added content doesn’t contain at least an element of either ‘jumping’ or a ‘puzzle’? Fractals has at least one where jumping is a major part of it- of the 3 I saw there was plenty of jumping and opportunities to fall to your death.

Well, I did the JP for Halloween, but I also did a pumpkin patch map, and a boss map, as well as spending a lot of time decorating LA. And our other Map Artist made the maze. On Wintersday I did the airship interior. As far as content distribution the vast majority is still on other things. If your argument is “Why are you making content that I don’t like while X is still a problem.” then you will never be satisfied because the game will never be perfect. We are always trying to make it perfect, but sometimes our solutions will not be the same as yours. And sometimes X is what our designers have decided is the best solution so it won’t change. We can’t make a game that is 100% everyone’s cup of tea. We will spend resources in ways that you would not if you ran ArenaNet. We spend resources in ways that I would not if I ran ArenaNet. The same can be said for any individual in the universe. I hear what you’re saying. You don’t like JPs and wish we would put those resources into other areas. My only contention is that “resources” are not a uniform descriptor. Map Artists can’t fix whatever it is you dislike about WvW. But they CAN make content that appeals to a niche community like the JP crowd without impinging on other systems or turning the game into Super Mario Bros.

Victory.2879:

I’ll stop being ‘silly’ when you start being ‘sensible’ in your replies to a customer.

Deal.

Well, I did the JP for Halloween

This one sentence, out of all that you wrote, instantly made you my favorite A-net Staff member

I loved The Hidden Garden. It felt a lot like playing an adventure puzzle game like Tomb Raider. The depth and feeling of the area was amazing.

Another I really enjoyed was Goemm’s lab. The variety and mechanics of the puzzle were great.

Griffonrook Run was a lot of fun, frustrating sometimes, but the challenge was welcome.

I loved the Clock Tower as well. Everything flowed very nicely.

I think there’s a chest squirreled away in that crumbling fort. (If we’re talking about the same area. Was it a veteran boar guarding the rich platinum vein?)

Josh Foreman.8250:

Hebee.8460:

My favorite still is the clock tower. It took the longest of all the JP’s for me, but it felt amazing to finish it.
I’d like to know Josh, if the area in Sparkfly Fen near the Point of Interest and Vista The Tower of Modius that you gain access to through Verarium Delves is going to be a JP later?
I’m not online right now to provide a screenshot but what I came across was a rich platnium with a veteran guarding it, then some bushes to the side that were hiding a cave with what looked like a crumbling fort inside that didnt have anything inside.

Thank you Josh for all the amazing work you & everyone have put into these JP’s, ME LOVE YALL LONG TIME.

Hm. Interesting. I worked on that map mid-development. Meaning someone owned before me and after me. That’s the map where I first started playing around with JPs. The tall ruins bridges and the pirate ghost base in the NE of that map were my first experiments. Then the Lich tower was my idea for making them a mandatory part of an event. Originally you had to take a crazy circuitous rout to get to the cave opening above the tower and drop down onto it. But after I handed the map off to someone else, I know we changed our policy so that no JPs are required for events, map complete, etc. I haven’t actually gone back to that map since launch, so I haven’t seen all the changes, but it’s possible that what you’re seeing is left overs from work I did that had to be cut. But I know that several enterprising map artists are digging around for spots to add more JPs, so I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it got reopened at some point.

When I first discovered it I assumed it was a JP, and then discovered it was a largely pointless room, until I accidentally fell behind the back wall. Down there was a small inescapable area which I figured was a mapping oversight, but after a little shifting around I got an “F-open” prompt. I visited this chest repeatedly for a few days as I was clearing the zone, and always assumed it was left over from some cancelled minidungeon or JP.

I visited that area recently, and much to my dismay, the route to drop down behind the wall at the back of the cave and access the hidden (or possibly bugged not to display) chest was closed off. Someone has done a bit of work in that cave, added some rocks so that you can’t fall behind that back wall any more, but it’s already got the making of the entrance to a JP/minidungeon. Just add a staircase in the little room under the altar in the back and stick the content down there!

DigitalKirin.9714:

I think there’s a chest squirreled away in that crumbling fort. (If we’re talking about the same area. Was it a veteran boar guarding the rich platinum vein?)

Yeah were talking about the same place. PopeUrban has been there too it looks like, I never saw/looted a chest though & i managed to get deep into there as well.

Thanks for the responce Josh Keep up the great work!

I love the JP in thegame and i have a max size norn, ive done every single JP in the entire game and pretty much every single exploration acheivement, all mini dungeons as well... Ahem, My point is dont blame your size its got nothing to do with it its a lame excuse for being not so good yet at them in my eyes..

Anyway my fave is griffonrook run, My gods that took almost a day from me and i classify it as one of the hardest puzzles in the game. yes much harder than clocktower or winter wonderland was.. although i liked them too

I would love to see some hidden jump piuzzles as random bonus events in dungeons

Ursan.7846:

VakarisJ.5619:

Swiftness and boons that boost speed mean you have more control over how you jump.

Lol.

Nope.

All swiftness does is to allow you to jump farther. If that….is your definition of “more control,” sure. But would you seriously use swiftness to “control your jump” when jumping on the planks, in say, the EB keep vistas? (where it’s INCREDIBLY easy to overjump)

PS wasn’t aware of any boons aside from swiftness that boosted speed. You should get your terminology straight!

VakarisJ.5619:

By that I meant that mesmers, by them selves, are not favored at all and that engineers aren’t favored because of downfalls in areas that’s not jump shot.

1. You’re right on the mesmers. I worded that wrong, and spawned a whole another argument which we agree to disagree on. (The need for a CRUTCH. Which swiftness also is, entertainingly enough)
2. When I think about it, your original post is actually right. Engies don’t have a huge advantage if the jumping puzzle is timed.
3. None of this changes the fact that introducing class imbalace by having class skills in the jumping puzzle to end all jumping puzzles is stupid. And Anet agrees with the way they implemented Mad King/Wintersday, and will do in this new future JP.

You admit that using class skills introduces imbalance. In the one area in the game which SKILL matters a lot (and how good your rig is, I guess), why introduce these imbalances at all?

You know, hes right it DOES give you more control because your charcter under swiftness has a quicker reaction to slow down in the air and turn in the air or strafe.. Try it!