Guild Wars 2

The Watchwork Mining Pick is a problem. It offers extra functionality above and beyond that of any other unlimited gathering tool, making it the de-facto choice regardless of whether or not anyone actually likes the animation. Since no further unlimited gathering tools have been released with similar functionality, it’s clear that this is a failed experiment, yet the pick remains in the store, possibly because the picks provide a needed source of watchwork sprockets. It’s easy enough to say that it should be removed anyway, but what if the effect was decoupled from it instead?

The suggestion: Leave the watchwork mining pick alone, but create an item which grants the effect of producing watchwork sprockets at random when you mine. This could be a consumable produced at cost for non-watchwork mining pick owners, an unlimited-use/toggle item for watchwork mining pick owners, or both—literally any implementation would alleviate the problem, even if it’s less convenient. You’d still be able to just use the pick as usual, but at least there’d be other options.

C’mon, I’d love to be able to use a full set of golem tools or mad scientist tools without feeling like I’m leaving silver on the table every time.

Weirwynn.2390:

The Watchwork Mining Pick is a problem. It offers extra functionality above and beyond that of any other unlimited gathering tool, making it the de-facto choice regardless of whether or not anyone actually likes the animation. Since no further unlimited gathering tools have been released with similar functionality, it’s clear that this is a failed experiment, yet the pick remains in the store, possibly because the picks provide a needed source of watchwork sprockets. It’s easy enough to say that it should be removed anyway, but what if the effect was decoupled from it instead?

The suggestion: Leave the watchwork mining pick alone, but create an item which grants the effect of producing watchwork sprockets at random when you mine. This could be a consumable produced at cost for non-watchwork mining pick owners, an unlimited-use/toggle item for watchwork mining pick owners, or both—literally any implementation would alleviate the problem, even if it’s less convenient. You’d still be able to just use the pick as usual, but at least there’d be other options.

C’mon, I’d love to be able to use a full set of golem tools or mad scientist tools without feeling like I’m leaving silver on the table every time.

Sorry, I don’t see it as a problem. The pick is still available so no one is getting an unfair advantage. If they want the effect buy it.

If the pick wasn’t for sale your argument would have some merit. Since it’s there in the store to buy, those that want that functionality can buy the pick. No reason for another version to be made.

Weirwynn.2390:

The Watchwork Mining Pick is a problem. It offers extra functionality above and beyond that of any other unlimited gathering tool, making it the de-facto choice regardless of whether or not anyone actually likes the animation. Since no further unlimited gathering tools have been released with similar functionality, it’s clear that this is a failed experiment, yet the pick remains in the store, possibly because the picks provide a needed source of watchwork sprockets. It’s easy enough to say that it should be removed anyway, but what if the effect was decoupled from it instead?

The suggestion: Leave the watchwork mining pick alone, but create an item which grants the effect of producing watchwork sprockets at random when you mine. This could be a consumable produced at cost for non-watchwork mining pick owners, an unlimited-use/toggle item for watchwork mining pick owners, or both—literally any implementation would alleviate the problem, even if it’s less convenient. You’d still be able to just use the pick as usual, but at least there’d be other options.

C’mon, I’d love to be able to use a full set of golem tools or mad scientist tools without feeling like I’m leaving silver on the table every time.

Go buy the pick.. put your argument to rest or is the issue that you care not to want to buy it but want to be able to craft a food or something that gives you the same effect or hope to buy a cheaper upgrade element to gain the effect – in which case it would be you that holds the advantage over others that put their hand in their wallets and bought the pick as is.

But anyhow your argument is moot considering the item is available to anyone and everyone.

I’m with you OP in the sense of other mining tools should have the same or different bonus item chances when mining, but, personally, it’s only because I want to buy another tool for my alt main. However I don’t like the look of the Watchwork tool, and won’t buy it JUST for the bonus item, but can’t shake the fact that buying any other one is kind of self defeating (even though it’s a small bonus, a bonus is a bonus, right?). I’m not complaining or saying the Watchwork one is a problem at all, but it IS enough to influence my buying of an additional tool.

Weirwynn.2390:

C’mon, I’d love to be able to use a full set of golem tools or mad scientist tools without feeling like I’m leaving silver on the table every time.

I feel the same way. I like the animation of my bone pick more, but I know my watchwork pick is producing more materials so it’s hard to justify not using it. With all of the discussions over this mining pick, I expected them to buff the others by now.

Because so many people have it the price of sprockets is reasonable and they’ve kept it available so if you want sprockets easily get one.

Don’t change my pick, I like it as is!

Also not seeing a problem here. It’s available to everyone equally.

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

I guess they prefer to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Maybe if they ignore it long enough, it will go away?

But yeah, making the watchwork pick be superior to other infinite mining tools was an extremely bad decision.

Draknar.5748:

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

Not true. I bought my molten picks (more than one) before watchwork one was created. I did it, because i believed Anet’s assurances that there will never be a better one that will make molten obsolete.
Those assurances turned out to be a lie.

Astralporing.1957:

I guess they prefer to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Maybe if they ignore it long enough, it will go away?

But yeah, making the watchwork pick be superior to other infinite mining tools was an extremely bad decision.

Draknar.5748:

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

Not true. I bought my molten picks (more than one) before watchwork one was created. I did it, because i believed Anet’s assurances that there will never be a better one that will make molten obsolete.
Those assurances turned out to be a lie.

Totally agree with you Astralporing. I invested a lot of real life money when Molten gathering tools first came out with the reassurance from Anet they’d be the best tools now and forever. Call me crazy if u want, but i enjoy the convenience and i bought 9 full sets, 1 for each of my characters. You’d have to agree that’s a lot of doe. But now i’m stuck with 9 inferior sets. Imagine if i had waited and bought 9 watchwork picks? I would be one rich player by now.

So yea, i second the disappointment and betrayal i feel. With Revenant coming up, I would have bought another set, but as is, I will never buy another, ever! I don’t care how inconvenient it is. Not unless they bring all other tools sets to par with watchwork.

Astralporing.1957:

I guess they prefer to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Maybe if they ignore it long enough, it will go away?

But yeah, making the watchwork pick be superior to other infinite mining tools was an extremely bad decision.

Draknar.5748:

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

Not true. I bought my molten picks (more than one) before watchwork one was created. I did it, because i believed Anet’s assurances that there will never be a better one that will make molten obsolete.
Those assurances turned out to be a lie.

Anet made assurances that there would never be a better mining pick? When did that happen?

I do agree with you that I would be a bit frustrated if I were in your situation. But I’m talking about at the current point in time, and not necessarily talking about people who purchased picks prior to the release of watchwork. That’s a different discussion I feel.

For players now, you have the same options as everyone else. Which is more valuable to you, a cool looking animation, or a small amount of extra income.

Those that struggle to make money, I can see watchwork as the obvious choice. But if you are like me, or most veteran players, you’ve pretty much figured out how to make money in this game so a cool animation would be more valuable to me. I have the watchwork mining pick. I don’t think it even amounts to 1% of my income.

Draknar.5748:

Astralporing.1957:

I guess they prefer to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Maybe if they ignore it long enough, it will go away?

But yeah, making the watchwork pick be superior to other infinite mining tools was an extremely bad decision.

Draknar.5748:

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

Not true. I bought my molten picks (more than one) before watchwork one was created. I did it, because i believed Anet’s assurances that there will never be a better one that will make molten obsolete.
Those assurances turned out to be a lie.

Anet made assurances that there would never be a better mining pick? When did that happen?

I do agree with you that I would be a bit frustrated if I were in your situation. But I’m talking about at the current point in time, and not necessarily talking about people who purchased picks prior to the release of watchwork. That’s a different discussion I feel.

For players now, you have the same options as everyone else. Which is more valuable to you, a cool looking animation, or a small amount of extra income.

Those that struggle to make money, I can see watchwork as the obvious choice. But if you are like me, or most veteran players, you’ve pretty much figured out how to make money in this game so a cool animation would be more valuable to me. I have the watchwork mining pick. I don’t think it even amounts to 1% of my income.

I think u’r underplaying the income form this pick. i was watching twich stream of a person using it and every 2nd hit on ore and wood got them a sprocket. Imagine therefore if u were doing lot of gathering , u’d be getting stacks of it each day at 2s+ each last time i looked, that amounts to a lot of money.

Tiger Ashante.1792:

I think u’r underplaying the income form this pick. i was watching twich stream of a person using it and every 2nd hit on ore and wood got them a sprocket. Imagine therefore if u were doing lot of gathering , u’d be getting stacks of it each day at 2s+ each last time i looked, that amounts to a lot of money.

Dont think he is, players in this game who know how to make money, make money fast. I own the watchwork pick, i harvest everything i run by, i have 236 sprockets in my bank and none on any of my characters. To get that, ive filled up my iron(Can hold 500) twice, Mithril once, got platinum to about 100, and ive filled up on ori. I guess it all depends on how lucky you are with the triggers, ive never been lucky with it though.

Proc chance seems to be about 25%. It’s fairly high.

arenanet did say that the permanent tools would always be the “best”. But this was really more in answer to the question “what if a higher tier gathering node is introduced?”, and not in reference to sheer performance.

The Watchwork Miningpick is a bad idea because it creates a very conflicting choice. Do i go for a skin i find pretty? But that means i wont get the significant income that the Watchwork brings.

Its problem for people that have other unlimited picks,as they are now not top tier any more and it cost them another 1000gem to fix that…

Top tier? What are you going to do with all the shards once you are done building the backpiece?
I bought the first three unlimited tools when they first hit. My only complaint is the fact that there are cooler looking tools out now, but I am not going to spend more gold/money/gems, just because I like how they look.
It’s really not that big of a deal, unless you are in need of shards for the back piece, and in that case, go to the secret hideout/jump puzzle, and keep killing sky pirates.

@Jaher Dal this pick dont give a shards that are accound bound, it gives sprockets. You sell a stack for 7 gold. If you mine rich nodes you get stack fast. Its free money. I run around doing events and gathering some platinium and iron and thanks to this pick I get like 15 gold extra on my farming run. You still think it is not an adventage?

this is a big problem.

People who said this is not a problem obviously own a watchwork mining pick! And are afraid they will loose it? Come on, dont lie…

It is a problem because like others said, now you dont have a choice. If you want to buy infinite mining pick, you only have ONE choice. If you choose anything other then watchwork you are loosing money everytime you mine.

What would you advice to your friend who want to buy his first infinite tool? I bet anyone from this thread who know how watchwork mining pick work would advice a friend to buy it.

So as we can see, we have a big problem here. If they dont take this sprocket bonus from watchwork pick, no one who know how this pick work would choose/buy other picks. And we want to have a choice based on animation and look of the tool right?

They can take this sprocket bonus because watchwork pick owners will get angry. They should not give bonus to other picks because it will make even more problems. And start to get us closer to pay2win.

Anet make a huge mistake with watchwork minig pick, and they know that, we all know that. And there isnt any good solution now.

I said all this as a owner of watchwork pick by the way.

The only fair solution is OP idea. Give watchwork owners a new item that when hold in backpack give sprockets while they mine, regardless of what pick they use. So now all who would want this bonus and a nice mining pick will have to pay 2000 gems. 1000 for watchwork for bonus item, and 1000 for mining pick they like.

Also Arenanet please by sure to never make anything similar to watchwork pick, learn on your mistakes

Just make Watchwork Mining Pick Limited edition, like the Silver salvage o matic.

I am trying to craft Zealot gear and the cost is honestly breaking my back (as I am working on Minstrel and gold is dear to me at the moment), set of gear and 2 weapons, with n0o jewelry, is costing me much over 50g – which is rather a lot for gear I want to only test, but is wholy account bound and cannot give it a test ride beforehand…
I have the Molten pick from far before when they were first introduced, I wish it picked sprockets too…

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just make Watchwork Mining Pick Limited edition, like the Silver salvage o matic.

Actually not having it available at all times would be worse than keeping it on the market. Keeping at available keeps the price of sprockets down so people with one(I own one) Dont make as much off it as they could if it wasnt available. aybe i should harvest more so i can get stacks of sprockets and get rich quick….i mean ive had 236 forever and i dont plan on building the backpack for awhile.

I own the Molten Alliance mining pick, I don’t own the Watchwork mining pick, and I also don’t care, nor have I ever really given it a second thought. I bought the Molten Alliance pick because that was the one I liked best and that’s the end of it for me.

That being said, if they introduced an item with additional drop chances to each of the other unlimited gathering tools I wouldn’t complain ;p but I also wouldn’t switch tools to get a different drop.

Um Abbas.5693:

I am trying to craft Zealot gear and the cost is honestly breaking my back (as I am working on Minstrel and gold is dear to me at the moment), set of gear and 2 weapons, with n0o jewelry, is costing me much over 50g – which is rather a lot for gear I want to only test, but is wholy account bound and cannot give it a test ride beforehand…
I have the Molten pick from far before when they were first introduced, I wish it picked sprockets too…

It should be picking Azurite, to be honest. Those orbs don’t even exist anymore (except maybe, rarely, in a specific fractal), but you can at least buy a Gift of Sprockets or whatever it’s call via laurels. There is no shortage of supply for sprockets, and as the pick continues to remain available, the price is going to keep dropping.

Rauderi.8706:

Um Abbas.5693:

I am trying to craft Zealot gear and the cost is honestly breaking my back (as I am working on Minstrel and gold is dear to me at the moment), set of gear and 2 weapons, with n0o jewelry, is costing me much over 50g – which is rather a lot for gear I want to only test, but is wholy account bound and cannot give it a test ride beforehand…
I have the Molten pick from far before when they were first introduced, I wish it picked sprockets too…

It should be picking Azurite, to be honest. Those orbs don’t even exist anymore (except maybe, rarely, in a specific fractal), but you can at least buy a Gift of Sprockets or whatever it’s call via laurels. There is no shortage of supply for sprockets, and as the pick continues to remain available, the price is going to keep dropping.

Something “special” which could cover my cost blew on crafting the insignias would be just fine. Sprockets are convenient, but any time-limited content which is hard to or impossible to come by now should be probably tied to it.
I also had several sets of that gear, before they became account bound…

This topic again?

I don’t get just how “unfair” the watchwork pick is over the others? Does it have a chance to drop sprockets? Yes. Is the price of sprockets so high that it is making millionairs vs those who don’t have the pick? No.
Its it allowing those who paid real money to have a significant advantage over those who don’t/didn’t? Not really.

Plus think of the sprocket generator that many people have in their home instances is . Is that also unfair? Should everyone be given a generator so everyone has equal access to it?

following that same logic, it’s also unfair that some people can speed run dungeons, and do a full dungeon tour in a short time. They get more money quicker than those who can’t do dungeon speed runs. (Which is the chief complaint of the watchwork picks. That people get more money quicker.) So they should either make it so all dungeons can be run by anyone in under 5 minutes. Thus putting the rest of the players on the same level as dungeon speed runners.

No, the watchwork pick isn’t unfair. It doesn’t provide a significant advantage over anyone else. Plus it helps put sprockets into the market, so those who don’t have it, can still make the back packs and whatnot. Plus it keeps prices low. If it wasn’t there, then prices would be stupid high and no one wants that.

pdavis.8031:

Is the price of sprockets so high that it is making millionairs vs those who don’t have the pick? No.

Not millionaires, but if you use a gathering booster, it’s an extra 2 to 3 gold per hour. More if you focus only on mining nodes and not gathering wood and plants like I did.

Neural.1824:

pdavis.8031:

Is the price of sprockets so high that it is making millionairs vs those who don’t have the pick? No.

Not millionaires, but if you use a gathering booster, it’s an extra 2 to 3 gold per hour. More if you focus only on mining nodes and not gathering wood and plants like I did.

Wait, so using a special buff, along with a special pick, AND a specific playstyle (aka farming) one can make 2-3 extra gold per hour? Thats totally unfair!!!
/sarcasm

In any event, my point stands its not that much of an advantage, if it can be called that at all. And extra 2-3g per hour by doing something very specific. Just like running dungeons. A hard core dungeon speed runner can make 10-15g per hour more than a casual player, or someone who doesn’t do speed runs.

So by using a watchwork pick, and farming all the mining nodes, you can make a bit of extra gold. Thats fine. That isn’t unfair, or game breaking (as some would like to imply). You paid the money specifically to have that bonus. Plus it would take forever to make your money back from the sprockets alone. So in the end, you are still basically short, even though you are making an extra 2-3g an hour.

pdavis.8031:

This topic again?

I don’t get just how “unfair” the watchwork pick is over the others? Does it have a chance to drop sprockets? Yes. Is the price of sprockets so high that it is making millionairs vs those who don’t have the pick? No.
Its it allowing those who paid real money to have a significant advantage over those who don’t/didn’t? Not really.

Plus think of the sprocket generator that many people have in their home instances is . Is that also unfair? Should everyone be given a generator so everyone has equal access to it?

following that same logic, it’s also unfair that some people can speed run dungeons, and do a full dungeon tour in a short time. They get more money quicker than those who can’t do dungeon speed runs. (Which is the chief complaint of the watchwork picks. That people get more money quicker.) So they should either make it so all dungeons can be run by anyone in under 5 minutes. Thus putting the rest of the players on the same level as dungeon speed runners.

No, the watchwork pick isn’t unfair. It doesn’t provide a significant advantage over anyone else. Plus it helps put sprockets into the market, so those who don’t have it, can still make the back packs and whatnot. Plus it keeps prices low. If it wasn’t there, then prices would be stupid high and no one wants that.

I’ll disagree with the comparison of a tool versus a speedrun. Tool is a passive thing, set and forget, for the most part. Speedruns require coordination and preparation, which should at least be rewarded.

As for what the tool produces, it’s primary value is on the trading post. It doesn’t really generate wealth; it transfers it from buyer to seller. Speedrunning does. So, from an economic perspective, the picks aren’t a terrible thing, while the inverse is kinda true of speedruns and chest/champ trains. Which, to be honest, champ trains are significantly more lucrative than a few sprocket taps.

The inequity between picks is the bad part. It limits what they can sell later and makes the other items feel bad to have. The lesson learned from that lead to the frost picks at Wintersday, which was actually pretty cool. But, that doesn’t change the other picks/tools. It would be better to find unique items for each to dredge up, and re-issue the recipes that use them, such as Azurite.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If the pick wasn’t for sale your argument would have some merit. Since it’s there in the store to buy, those that want that functionality can buy the pick. No reason for another version to be made.

This x100. Get it or don’t. It’s your choice but stop complaining about it. It’s not some uber exclusive item. Everyone has the ability to purchase it.

I bought a Bone Pick before the Watchwork Mining Pick was released.

Watchwork Mining Pick was released, I found out about the added bonus and bought this pick knowing that it would pay itself off. I now have a Bone Pick that doesn’t get used much, but I really don’t mind.

I understand the complaint if somebody bought another pick now for aesthetics and then found out about the Watchwork Mining Pick… that would be frustrating because they would’ve spent money on an inferior product.

I would also understand complaints if Watchwork was very exclusive/limited time only… but as far as I’m aware it’s now a permanent item in the gemstore and players can readily save up for it if they wish.

The only complaint that I have is that my Bone Pick is pretty redundant and often gets left in my bank… however, this is a lifestyle choice on my part which I could change.

I also probably wouldn’t have bought my Bone Pick if I had known that Watchwork was going to be released, but it was my choice to buy it and it served me well during the time I used it.

Rauderi.8706:

The inequity between picks is the bad part. It limits what they can sell later and makes the other items feel bad to have. The lesson learned from that lead to the frost picks at Wintersday, which was actually pretty cool. But, that doesn’t change the other picks/tools. It would be better to find unique items for each to dredge up, and re-issue the recipes that use them, such as Azurite.

So those who spend the money, or gold, to get the watchwork pick should essentially be punished for having it because it’s not “fair”? Should I be punished for having a smart phone that can scan documents and send faxes, thus allowing me to conduct more business and potentially make more money than someone who doesn’t have a smart phone that can do those things? Should those without such phones be given an automatic upgrade for free so everyone can be on the same level? No. Not at all.

The watch work pick is readily available to all. If someone wants the “advantage” then they need to buy the one that gives the “advantage”. Period. There is no reason that anyone should be given an upgrade to items they already bought simply because one other item gives a chance to drop an extra item.

I’m surprised that the price of sprockets has remained remarkably stable (and fairly high IMO), for an entire year. Picks cost about 120 gold a year ago. Since then I’ve played about 350 days, averaging 12 strikes a day. That works out to about 1000 sprockets and 24 gold.

The pick is not a problem. Less QQ, please.

I’ll just repost myself:

Watchwork Pick is superior fo all other tools, theres no reason to buy another one, except you want one skin really bad and are willing to sacrifice a nice bunch of extra gold.

Solution:
Splitt the gathering tools into three parts:
- Standard endless tool (standard pick-skin)
- Skin (Molten Alliance, Bone, ..)
- Effect (watchwork Sprockets, Azurite, ..)

The Skin and effect should be selectable like a finisher.

Then sell the single parts and some bundles as well.
In this way ppl who already have a tool could still buy skins and effects instead of nothing, because they would have an unused tool.

And now ANet gief me already my Hobo-Sprocket-Tron-Tool!

pdavis.8031:

Plus think of the sprocket generator that many people have in their home instances is . Is that also unfair? Should everyone be given a generator so everyone has equal access to it?

Anyone can get it for 15g and 25 Laurels, which is much cheaper than buying 1000 gems.

pdavis.8031:

following that same logic, it’s also unfair that some people can speed run dungeons, and do a full dungeon tour in a short time.

I’m not sure how that logic follows. In game play and experience =/= rl money.

Tiger Ashante.1792:

Call me crazy if u want, but i enjoy the convenience and i bought 9 full sets, 1 for each of my characters. You’d have to agree that’s a lot of doe. But now i’m stuck with 9 inferior sets.

Yeah, holy wow… I bought 2 sets of unlimited tools before the watchwork, and I can only imagine how angry I’d have been after spending enough for 9 sets and then have a better one be released.

pdavis.8031:

So those who spend the money, or gold, to get the watchwork pick should essentially be punished for having it because it’s not “fair”?

~snip~

There is no reason that anyone should be given an upgrade to items they already bought simply because one other item gives a chance to drop an extra item.

So, if you had spent enough for multiple infinite picks, only to have another drop in the gem store that was better, you would not feel slighted or disappointed in the least?

Rauderi.8706:

It should be picking Azurite, to be honest. Those orbs don’t even exist anymore (except maybe, rarely, in a specific fractal), but you can at least buy a Gift of Sprockets or whatever it’s call via laurels.

This. My biggest problem with LS1 was the temporary nature of additions to the game. After the watchwork pick came out, my first thought was, “Why use the molten pick any more?” The second was, “They should really make the other permanent tools harvest bonus items. Especially things like the sprockets and azurite that were limited time content additions.” I can’t argue that the existence of the watchwork pick is inherently unfair to anyone, since it (finally) is a permanent fixture in the gem store. However, it does feel unfair to have purchased tools before its release without knowing that they would be worth less (not to be read worthless) than an item to be released later. I don’t feel a need to rage about it, but try to understand the disappointment of those of us who spent rl cash on an item, only to later feel it was made less valuable by a new item.

Mojo Gris Gris.5941:

pdavis.8031:

So those who spend the money, or gold, to get the watchwork pick should essentially be punished for having it because it’s not “fair”?

~snip~

There is no reason that anyone should be given an upgrade to items they already bought simply because one other item gives a chance to drop an extra item.

So, if you had spent enough for multiple infinite picks, only to have another drop in the gem store that was better, you would not feel slighted or disappointed in the least?

Not really. Going back to the cell phone analogy. If I buy a cell phone, and 6 months later a new model comes out with better features, I wouldn’t expect anyone to do anything about it. I spent the money on my current phone, and got what I paid for. There was no way of telling that my phone would become second rate in a few months. Just like the picks before the watchwork pick. If I spent the money on those picks, I got what I paid for. A new upgraded model comes out, I should have no reason to expect that my previous pick should be upgraded for free to match the upgraded version. If I want the upgrade I pay for the upgrade.

Pimsley.6087:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If the pick wasn’t for sale your argument would have some merit. Since it’s there in the store to buy, those that want that functionality can buy the pick. No reason for another version to be made.

This x100. Get it or don’t. It’s your choice but stop complaining about it. It’s not some uber exclusive item. Everyone has the ability to purchase it.

So even though i purchased all my characters the full tools sets when they first came and spent a small fortune on them already, you’d want me to buy another one? and what, throw away one of my other existing sets, or leave them rotting in the bank? is that what ur suggesting? Perhaps u can afford to do that but i can’t. I’ve spent enough on this crap, on what i thought would be the best tools, then the watchwork comes and now, not only can u make money off the mats u gather but get extra bonuses to cover ur purchase costs. if you call that equity, then i guess ur bias and i can understand that, since ur making extra money out of it and want to keep it that way.

pdavis.8031:

This topic again?

I don’t get just how “unfair” the watchwork pick is over the others? Does it have a chance to drop sprockets? Yes. Is the price of sprockets so high that it is making millionairs vs those who don’t have the pick? No.
Its it allowing those who paid real money to have a significant advantage over those who don’t/didn’t? Not really.

Plus think of the sprocket generator that many people have in their home instances is . Is that also unfair? Should everyone be given a generator so everyone has equal access to it?

following that same logic, it’s also unfair that some people can speed run dungeons, and do a full dungeon tour in a short time. They get more money quicker than those who can’t do dungeon speed runs. (Which is the chief complaint of the watchwork picks. That people get more money quicker.) So they should either make it so all dungeons can be run by anyone in under 5 minutes. Thus putting the rest of the players on the same level as dungeon speed runners.

No, the watchwork pick isn’t unfair. It doesn’t provide a significant advantage over anyone else. Plus it helps put sprockets into the market, so those who don’t have it, can still make the back packs and whatnot. Plus it keeps prices low. If it wasn’t there, then prices would be stupid high and no one wants that.

Well you would say that wouldn’t you since ur obviously have one and are making money out if it. Comparing a gem shop item to dungeon speed run is ridiculous, how can u even think they’re the same thing. Many ppl including myself have spent tons of real money on these tools and ur comparing a dungeon speed run to it? Incredulous.

Tiger Ashante.1792:

pdavis.8031:

This topic again?

I don’t get just how “unfair” the watchwork pick is over the others? Does it have a chance to drop sprockets? Yes. Is the price of sprockets so high that it is making millionairs vs those who don’t have the pick? No.
Its it allowing those who paid real money to have a significant advantage over those who don’t/didn’t? Not really.

Plus think of the sprocket generator that many people have in their home instances is . Is that also unfair? Should everyone be given a generator so everyone has equal access to it?

following that same logic, it’s also unfair that some people can speed run dungeons, and do a full dungeon tour in a short time. They get more money quicker than those who can’t do dungeon speed runs. (Which is the chief complaint of the watchwork picks. That people get more money quicker.) So they should either make it so all dungeons can be run by anyone in under 5 minutes. Thus putting the rest of the players on the same level as dungeon speed runners.

No, the watchwork pick isn’t unfair. It doesn’t provide a significant advantage over anyone else. Plus it helps put sprockets into the market, so those who don’t have it, can still make the back packs and whatnot. Plus it keeps prices low. If it wasn’t there, then prices would be stupid high and no one wants that.

Well you would say that wouldn’t you since ur obviously have one and are making money out if it. Comparing a gem shop item to dungeon speed run is ridiculous, how can u even think they’re the same thing. Many ppl including myself have spent tons of real money on these tools and ur comparing a dungeon speed run to it? Incredulous.

Just as “Incredulous” as expecting a free upgrade to a product you purchased when a new product is introduced.

I do have one, and no I’m not making money off of it. In order to make a significant amount of money from the watchwork pick, one would need to farm almost constantly. I have better things to do than farm mining nodes just to make a few extra gold.

Tiger Ashante.1792:

Astralporing.1957:

I guess they prefer to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Maybe if they ignore it long enough, it will go away?

But yeah, making the watchwork pick be superior to other infinite mining tools was an extremely bad decision.

Draknar.5748:

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

Not true. I bought my molten picks (more than one) before watchwork one was created. I did it, because i believed Anet’s assurances that there will never be a better one that will make molten obsolete.
Those assurances turned out to be a lie.

Totally agree with you Astralporing. I invested a lot of real life money when Molten gathering tools first came out with the reassurance from Anet they’d be the best tools now and forever. Call me crazy if u want, but i enjoy the convenience and i bought 9 full sets, 1 for each of my characters. You’d have to agree that’s a lot of doe. But now i’m stuck with 9 inferior sets. Imagine if i had waited and bought 9 watchwork picks? I would be one rich player by now.

So yea, i second the disappointment and betrayal i feel. With Revenant coming up, I would have bought another set, but as is, I will never buy another, ever! I don’t care how inconvenient it is. Not unless they bring all other tools sets to par with watchwork.

yeah, wish I could trade. I bought some of the first tools that came out, not expecting newer/better/cooler ones in the future. and now regret the older cosmetics I don’t really like all that much.

Tiger Ashante.1792:

Draknar.5748:

Astralporing.1957:

I guess they prefer to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Maybe if they ignore it long enough, it will go away?

But yeah, making the watchwork pick be superior to other infinite mining tools was an extremely bad decision.

Draknar.5748:

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

Not true. I bought my molten picks (more than one) before watchwork one was created. I did it, because i believed Anet’s assurances that there will never be a better one that will make molten obsolete.
Those assurances turned out to be a lie.

Anet made assurances that there would never be a better mining pick? When did that happen?

I do agree with you that I would be a bit frustrated if I were in your situation. But I’m talking about at the current point in time, and not necessarily talking about people who purchased picks prior to the release of watchwork. That’s a different discussion I feel.

For players now, you have the same options as everyone else. Which is more valuable to you, a cool looking animation, or a small amount of extra income.

Those that struggle to make money, I can see watchwork as the obvious choice. But if you are like me, or most veteran players, you’ve pretty much figured out how to make money in this game so a cool animation would be more valuable to me. I have the watchwork mining pick. I don’t think it even amounts to 1% of my income.

I think u’r underplaying the income form this pick. i was watching twich stream of a person using it and every 2nd hit on ore and wood got them a sprocket. Imagine therefore if u were doing lot of gathering , u’d be getting stacks of it each day at 2s+ each last time i looked, that amounts to a lot of money.

If he is getting a sprocket every 2nd hit on ore (and wood? huh?) then he has some super mining pick that I don’t have access to. I get_maybe_ 2 sprockets per node. (so 2 per 9 swings of the pick —obviously you can get a lucky streak, but this is a fair average). That’s 125 nodes of mining to get ~5.61g (@2.65s/ea * 250 – 15% list+sale fee).

Like I said, there are far better ways to make money. Your time is better spent doing anything else really.

Really, some of the gold making claims in this thread are outlandish. Not only claims of sprockets from wood, but 15 gold from one casual event playing/farming run!

Logos.1306:

Snip
If you mine rich nodes you get stack fast. Its free money. I run around doing events and gathering some platinium and iron and thanks to this pick I get like 15 gold extra on my farming run. You still think it is not an adventage?
Snip

How many get 15 gold extra from one of these picks on a event playing/farming run combo? Each regular node gives on average one sprocket. At 2.53 silver each, that 590 sprockets. If each regular node gives on average one sprocket, that’s 500 to 600 nodes. In the quote above, he is claiming that he is harvesting some nodes while doing events and getting this amazing 15 gold.

Saying things that are completely untrue makes the people who dislike that pick appear desperate enough to resort to outright fabrications instead of sticking to the facts to make their point.

steveway.3167:

Weirwynn.2390:

The Watchwork Mining Pick is a problem. ……

Sorry, I don’t see it as a problem. The pick is still available so no one is getting an unfair advantage. If they want the effect buy it.

The OPs assumption that there IS a problem is simply invalid now that the tool is constantly available in the gem store…..no need for any further action on anyone’s part.

While there is a gold advantage to using a WW pick….go buy one and you get the advantage as well….problem solved!

(and some the claims in this thread of how much extra gold you can get from the WW pick is HUGELY exaggerated…)

Draknar.5748:

Tiger Ashante.1792:

Draknar.5748:

Astralporing.1957:

I guess they prefer to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Maybe if they ignore it long enough, it will go away?

But yeah, making the watchwork pick be superior to other infinite mining tools was an extremely bad decision.

Draknar.5748:

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

Not true. I bought my molten picks (more than one) before watchwork one was created. I did it, because i believed Anet’s assurances that there will never be a better one that will make molten obsolete.
Those assurances turned out to be a lie.

Anet made assurances that there would never be a better mining pick? When did that happen?

I do agree with you that I would be a bit frustrated if I were in your situation. But I’m talking about at the current point in time, and not necessarily talking about people who purchased picks prior to the release of watchwork. That’s a different discussion I feel.

For players now, you have the same options as everyone else. Which is more valuable to you, a cool looking animation, or a small amount of extra income.

Those that struggle to make money, I can see watchwork as the obvious choice. But if you are like me, or most veteran players, you’ve pretty much figured out how to make money in this game so a cool animation would be more valuable to me. I have the watchwork mining pick. I don’t think it even amounts to 1% of my income.

I think u’r underplaying the income form this pick. i was watching twich stream of a person using it and every 2nd hit on ore and wood got them a sprocket. Imagine therefore if u were doing lot of gathering , u’d be getting stacks of it each day at 2s+ each last time i looked, that amounts to a lot of money.

If he is getting a sprocket every 2nd hit on ore (and wood? huh?) then he has some super mining pick that I don’t have access to. I get_maybe_ 2 sprockets per node. (so 2 per 9 swings of the pick —obviously you can get a lucky streak, but this is a fair average). That’s 125 nodes of mining to get ~5.61g (@2.65s/ea * 250 – 15% list+sale fee).

Like I said, there are far better ways to make money. Your time is better spent doing anything else really.

Actually, efficient gathering is considerably more worthwhile than many of the commonly done farming methods. Having done it several times (and by “several” I mean “several hundred”), the average gold I get is 7-9g in 30 minutes, or 14-18g per hour. Compare that to the next most efficient thing, Silverwastes Chest farming. That averages about 10-12g before Exotics (which are so uncommon as to be very negligible in averages, but the potential for solid gain is still there). Dungeon running is still the most efficient (by a rather extreme margin on the high end) non-trading post method (ie. Flipping and mass selling and the like), but gathering is the second most. Its disadvantage is that it’s a fickle market, and too many people messing with it can drastically lower the prices to the point of it not being a good idea. An example of that would be for Platinum, which is a big part of these numbers (I would be gathering about 80-100 Platinum). However, before people really started to go gung-ho on them, they would go for about 1.8-2s each. That’s an additional 24s to 50s I was gaining for doing this over those numbers. That’s not much, but Platinum isn’t special and there are many other gathered materials that have led to about a 1g lowering in profit from what it used to be.

pdavis.8031:

Not really. Going back to the cell phone analogy. If I buy a cell phone, and 6 months later a new model comes out with better features, I wouldn’t expect anyone to do anything about it. I spent the money on my current phone, and got what I paid for. There was no way of telling that my phone would become second rate in a few months. Just like the picks before the watchwork pick. If I spent the money on those picks, I got what I paid for. A new upgraded model comes out, I should have no reason to expect that my previous pick should be upgraded for free to match the upgraded version. If I want the upgrade I pay for the upgrade.

I kind of expected that comparison, and I guess it’s a fair point even though it’s kind of an apples to oranges comparison. However, let’s go with something similar. It’s more like signing up for what seems like a great cell plan, only to have the company start a much better plan a few months later, but it’s only available for “new customers” and gives a free phone, when you paid full price for yours. I always hate it when a company gives new customers a bonus, but the existing customer gets nothing, even though they have been paying more for longer. Still not a great analogy, but even though that’s the way it is, it’s not exactly right. To take it just a step further, I’ll agree that Anet was pretty fair to change the first tools to Account Bound with no charge after the watchwork came out as account bound. And, hey, I’m not asking for a free upgrade to the tools, but I would go ahead and pay 500 gems for an upgrade to my existing tools, if it meant some extra drops, and a way to get those “out of circulation” items. As it stands, I just don’t see the point in using my old molten picks anymore.

/QQ

I’d recommend the following:

- Give each gathering tool its own unique bonus effect. Including the ones from merchant. Eg.: Copper pick will have a chance for extra copper, a molten pick will have a chance for molten or destroyer slivers, an orichalcum axe will have a chance for an extra ancient wood, a steel sickle will have a chance for extra T3 ingredients, and so on.
- Change vendor tools to work across all tiers without producing ruined material trophies in exchange for slightly increased prices. A copper pick will increase to 2 silver, an orichalcum pick to 5 silver, so you can use a copper pick on a T6 node to get T6 materials and a chance for copper, or a orichalcum pick and the chance will be for extra orichalcum instead.
- Add skin unlocks for gathering tools. They can be selected and enabled like outfits in a new “garthering tool skin” section in the equipment panel, covering the current pick’s visual effects. All you need is equipping one once to unlock the skin. The skin will show regardless of which pick you have actually equipped.
- Make everlasting picks account unlocks, so each character can get its own from the bank without having to put them in the bank all the time.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Really, some of the gold making claims in this thread are outlandish. Not only claims of sprockets from wood, but 15 gold from one casual event playing/farming run!

Logos.1306:

Snip
If you mine rich nodes you get stack fast. Its free money. I run around doing events and gathering some platinium and iron and thanks to this pick I get like 15 gold extra on my farming run. You still think it is not an adventage?
Snip

How many get 15 gold extra from one of these picks on a event playing/farming run combo? Each regular node gives on average one sprocket. At 2.53 silver each, that 590 sprockets. If each regular node gives on average one sprocket, that’s 500 to 600 nodes. In the quote above, he is claiming that he is harvesting some nodes while doing events and getting this amazing 15 gold.

Saying things that are completely untrue makes the people who dislike that pick appear desperate enough to resort to outright fabrications instead of sticking to the facts to make their point.

Not normal nodes, I said I farm rich nodes they give more sprockets. (some normal nodes in between rich nodes too or course) And not on one character. I have many alts. I dont get 15 g on one “run” = 1 character of course. I mean after all day of farm I get like 10-15 gold extra thanks to selling sprockets from watchwork pick.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Draknar.5748:

Tiger Ashante.1792:

Draknar.5748:

Astralporing.1957:

I guess they prefer to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Maybe if they ignore it long enough, it will go away?

But yeah, making the watchwork pick be superior to other infinite mining tools was an extremely bad decision.

Draknar.5748:

Do you want cool animation or do you want the chance of sprockets. Everyone has the same decision to make.

Not true. I bought my molten picks (more than one) before watchwork one was created. I did it, because i believed Anet’s assurances that there will never be a better one that will make molten obsolete.
Those assurances turned out to be a lie.

Anet made assurances that there would never be a better mining pick? When did that happen?

I do agree with you that I would be a bit frustrated if I were in your situation. But I’m talking about at the current point in time, and not necessarily talking about people who purchased picks prior to the release of watchwork. That’s a different discussion I feel.

For players now, you have the same options as everyone else. Which is more valuable to you, a cool looking animation, or a small amount of extra income.

Those that struggle to make money, I can see watchwork as the obvious choice. But if you are like me, or most veteran players, you’ve pretty much figured out how to make money in this game so a cool animation would be more valuable to me. I have the watchwork mining pick. I don’t think it even amounts to 1% of my income.

I think u’r underplaying the income form this pick. i was watching twich stream of a person using it and every 2nd hit on ore and wood got them a sprocket. Imagine therefore if u were doing lot of gathering , u’d be getting stacks of it each day at 2s+ each last time i looked, that amounts to a lot of money.

If he is getting a sprocket every 2nd hit on ore (and wood? huh?) then he has some super mining pick that I don’t have access to. I get_maybe_ 2 sprockets per node. (so 2 per 9 swings of the pick —obviously you can get a lucky streak, but this is a fair average). That’s 125 nodes of mining to get ~5.61g (@2.65s/ea * 250 – 15% list+sale fee).

Like I said, there are far better ways to make money. Your time is better spent doing anything else really.

Actually, efficient gathering is considerably more worthwhile than many of the commonly done farming methods. Having done it several times (and by “several” I mean “several hundred”), the average gold I get is 7-9g in 30 minutes, or 14-18g per hour. Compare that to the next most efficient thing, Silverwastes Chest farming. That averages about 10-12g before Exotics (which are so uncommon as to be very negligible in averages, but the potential for solid gain is still there). Dungeon running is still the most efficient (by a rather extreme margin on the high end) non-trading post method (ie. Flipping and mass selling and the like), but gathering is the second most. Its disadvantage is that it’s a fickle market, and too many people messing with it can drastically lower the prices to the point of it not being a good idea. An example of that would be for Platinum, which is a big part of these numbers (I would be gathering about 80-100 Platinum). However, before people really started to go gung-ho on them, they would go for about 1.8-2s each. That’s an additional 24s to 50s I was gaining for doing this over those numbers. That’s not much, but Platinum isn’t special and there are many other gathered materials that have led to about a 1g lowering in profit from what it used to be.

I mean, maybe I’m just terrible, but in 30min I can squeeze in 3 complete dungeon paths, which I feel is a pretty good pace, but I ain’t gettin’ no 9g from 3 dungeon paths.

At 9g, just using platinum ore as an example, that would require something like 65 nodes in 30min (1s54c/ea sell price). It takes roughly 15seconds to mine a standard node, or roughly 16min simply doing the actual physical act of mining 65 nodes. Meaning you have would 14min remaining to travel between all 65 nodes. The average time needed to jump between 65 nodes to stay within 30min total would be 13secs between each node.

I don’t think that is physically possible. Heck I don’t think it is physically possible at the 7g figure. I think 7-9g/hr is a bit more believable.

Unless you have some really, really elaborate alt placement system. Which I’d love to hear about because that would be by far one of the best ways to make money I’ve heard.

Logos.1306:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Really, some of the gold making claims in this thread are outlandish. Not only claims of sprockets from wood, but 15 gold from one casual event playing/farming run!

How many get 15 gold extra from one of these picks on a event playing/farming run combo? Each regular node gives on average one sprocket. At 2.53 silver each, that 590 sprockets. If each regular node gives on average one sprocket, that’s 500 to 600 nodes. In the quote above, he is claiming that he is harvesting some nodes while doing events and getting this amazing 15 gold.

Saying things that are completely untrue makes the people who dislike that pick appear desperate enough to resort to outright fabrications instead of sticking to the facts to make their point.

Not normal nodes, I said I farm rich nodes they give more sprockets. (some normal nodes in between rich nodes too or course) And not on one character. I have many alts. I dont get 15 g on one "run" = 1 character of course. I mean after all day of farm I get like 10-15 gold extra thanks to selling sprockets from watchwork pick.

When someone is making a claim of 15 gold in a discussion of the advantages of this tool they need to be precise and stick to the facts. You said, you were harvesting some nodes while doing events to get this 15 gold. That’s still almost 600 sprockets that need to be gotten out of nodes, 500 to 600 regular nodes. The 2 or 3 extra sprockets from a handful of rich nodes per map isn’t going to make it that 600 sprockets. That would be 200 rich nodes if you get 3 sprockets each. Now a dedicated farm run covering multiple maps and characters hitting the best nodes over a couple of hours, maybe. But not the casual event playing episode that you mentioned in your post where you harvest some nodes while playing.

As you said

Logos.1306:

Snip
If you mine rich nodes you get stack fast. Its free money. I run around doing events and gathering some platinium and iron and thanks to this pick I get like 15 gold extra on my farming run. You still think it is not an adventage?
Snip

Your explanation completely changes what you were doing from a casual event and some farming to an all day, multiple map node farm where you switch between characters and it’s not all on one run. Those are two different situations.

Draknar.5748:

I mean, maybe I’m just terrible, but in 30min I can squeeze in 3 complete dungeon paths, which I feel is a pretty good pace, but I ain’t gettin’ no 9g from 3 dungeon paths.

At 9g, just using platinum ore as an example, that would require something like 65 nodes in 30min (1s54c/ea sell price). It takes roughly 15seconds to mine a standard node, or roughly 16min simply doing the actual physical act of mining 65 nodes. Meaning you have would 14min remaining to travel between all 65 nodes. The average time needed to jump between 65 nodes to stay within 30min total would be 13secs between each node.

I don’t think that is physically possible. Heck I don’t think it is physically possible at the 7g figure. I think 7-9g/hr is a bit more believable.

Unless you have some really, really elaborate alt placement system. Which I’d love to hear about because that would be by far one of the best ways to make money I’ve heard.

High end dungeon running is a whole different ball game from what normal PUGs are used to. Though people like to tout that they’re doing a speed clear on a PUG, or even on a lower tier guild, they’re only doing a pale shade of what major guilds are pulling off. Now these numbers are based off the records, and you should take them with a grain of salt in that regard, but here’s a bit of a look into that sort of thing:

AC1 has a record of 4m2s, so we’ll round that up to 4m30s (rounding for a bit less of a clean run, but still on a high tier of play). CM1 has a record of 3m29s, so we’ll round that up to 4m. CM2 has a record of 2m49s, so we’ll round that up to 3m30s. CM3 has a record of 2m37s, so we’ll round that up to 3m. SE1 has a record of 2m58s, so we’ll round that up to 3m30s. SE3 has a record of 3m2s, so we’ll round that up to 3m30s.

All of those together make up the 9g easily, but we’re still only at 22 minutes, with some additional time taken for load screens added on putting it at 28 minutes (I’m sort of being generous with the loads, as it should take less time than that, but that’s not the point). And that’s only factoring in the gold gained strictly from the path. Drops will cause it to be more profitable, making it go well above and beyond what the other options bring to the table. And even adding on a pretty hefty amount of time to these numbers (an additional minute or so) doesn’t change the fact that these are still extremely solid for gold in comparison to the alternatives.

Remember, it’s not so much that you’re bad, but that actual speed runs are a whole different ball game when it comes down to these things. People like to pretend that “Berserker + solid strats = speed clear,” but the reality is that it’s only just faster than not having optimal gear. Surprisingly few PUGs actually use even close to optimal builds/strategy (I can count the amount Warriors that have had Phalanx Strength in PUGs on one hand, for example), and the strategies needed to do a true clear as fast as possible.

As for my gathering comments… I wasn’t talking about strictly Platinum for it all, but just used it as an easy example for something that showed a downward trend due to heavy gathering. A good gathering route will never just grab one thing as its only way to make money, as that leaves it extremely open for massive swings in price. The 80-100 Platinum I would be gathering in my route, for instance, moved from 1g30s40c-1g63s00c to 1g17s60c-1g47s00c (this being before trading post taxes, though my average gains are after them) in a recent sense (its drop from about a week ago when I did this last vs. today’s prices), which cut down a bit in profits, but because of my route having a large number of different things my overall profits didn’t take that much of a hit (Stuff like Garlic and Orrian Truffles going up causing the hit to my gains to not be as dire).

And for the numbers in total… I’m extremely sure of them. I did a run that I recorded a while back (a really flippin’ bad run, so I’d want to actually rerecord if I was ever going to put it on the Internet >.>) where I got around 8g in 33 minutes on a Guardian (ie. really awful mobility in addition to my awful luck). Though, that being said, you can just look up Chef Moon’s route if you’d like to see a surprisingly close run to mine (I was sort of shocked that someone was doing practically the same run as me). Mine is a bit more optimized than his (in a couple of spots I hit nodes that he doesn’t get access to), but the general gist of it is the same: gather crazy amounts of Iron, Platinum, Hard Wood, Herbs, and Truffles. And the Silverwastes numbers I actually did math for based on the probabilities from bags (I did a ton of data consolidation), so the range is pretty absolute, even if it’s actually better than the average runs for the optimal way to actually do chest runs (it assumes that you don’t do the various defenses yet don’t actually ever run out of Shovels + the Shovels get used quickly after the chest has been reached). The numbers only don’t factor in Exotics + the “hard to evaluate” items like Obsidian and Dragonite/Empyreal/Bloodstone.

pdavis.8031:

So by using a watchwork pick, and farming all the mining nodes, you can make a bit of extra gold. Thats fine. That isn’t unfair, or game breaking (as some would like to imply). You paid the money specifically to have that bonus. Plus it would take forever to make your money back from the sprockets alone. So in the end, you are still basically short, even though you are making an extra 2-3g an hour.

Not really forever. Around 2 or 3 months should be sufficient to break even at current exchange rates.

For me the real benefits of the pick is that I no longer have to pay any attention to what type of mining node it is. Just mine everything.