Guild Wars 2

Jski.6180:

Raine.1394:

Jski.6180:

Raine.1394:

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?

In my case I didn’t come to GW2 with a preference. I had played trinity games and was completely open to other conceptions of combat—and, I still am. I have no special love for the trinity itself and perhaps have the most problem with the conception of tank.

What I do believe is necessary is meaningful combat roles and we don’t have them. In thinking about what’s missing I’m not sure that set roles are necessary if say meaningful alternate builds were available that brought unique meaningful abilities to the table. I’m completely open, but have noticed that GW2 combat is not satisfying. Rather than giving up on a great game, I prefer to advocate for things that might work better.

When combat becomes more open ppl have more chose in how they play even games with a trinity system if they are able to avoid attks by rolling out of the way it weakens the trinity system over all. So you can play GW2 like it has a trinity system but most ppl CHOSE not to. So its not for the lack of a trinity system that ppl play the way you do not want them to play its more on the ppl want to play that way. If you truly dislike playing that way then you do not have to but if others truly dislike playing with a trinity system you have no right to say they are wrong.

Game design is the larger determinant of how people play a game. It’s interesting, early on a meta wanted to emerge around an anchor guardian, mesmer, and warrior team composition. I say “wanted to” because it is innate in our humanity to establish roles when confronted with a group objective. But, players eventually figured out that DPS was the only thing that mattered after all.

I never have a problem with people’s preferences. I only take issue with irrational ideas like WoW is more scripted than GW2 because of the trinity. Or, that wait time is an issue with a LFG tool under the trinity. I think it’s fine to have a preference around the trinity and I honor that.

So trinity is more of an artifact of lower end computing power and lower end web power it makes an illusion of combat that is not turn base but in truth it is turn base. Games like WoW are very scripted as in there only one way to play it and in truth there no way for WoW to brake out of that beyond giving every class every thing at once. The ability to avoid dmg by rolling adds a lot more to the level of chose of how you play in a game at the same time having environment weapons such as having triggers falling rock kill mobs at the same time etc.. take away from the idea of a trinity system too. That kind of the point to have mmorpg evolve into new higher end system and web power so far mmorpg have lagged way behind such stander as FPS or moba (how every you spell it) or rts etc… Its this hold out to the old that is keeping mmorpg back badly.

Side note to honor something you believe in is more of an ego boots its not realty something you do to make a point.

No, the trinity is simply a construct that grows out of human experience. First, it acknowledges that humans generally approach group objectives through roles, and this is true whether it’s a scavenger hunt, football team, or brain surgery. The trinity decided among various role options and came up with three.

One thing to note is that the options come largely from human experience and archetype. And, that’s where they should come from. Is the trinity anything special that must be preserved? Nope, it’s just one possible conception of combat roles and I believe we could do better than the trinity. But, I don’t believe all DPS all the time works and that’s why we have these threads. Something is wrong and something can be improved.

Jski.6180:

Side note to honor something you believe in is more of an ego boots its not realty something you do to make a point.

I was actually an English major at one point in my academic career but can’t make out the meaning of this sentence. To me, to honor something you believe in is to honor something you believe in. If you believe something different, can you provide more English to help me understand your point?

Raine.1394:

No, the trinity is simply a construct that grows out of human experience. First, it acknowledges that humans generally approach group objectives through roles, and this is true whether it’s a scavenger hunt, football team, or brain surgery. The trinity decided among various role options and came up with three.

One thing to note is that the options come largely from human experience and archetype. And, that’s where they should come from. Is the trinity anything special that must be preserved? Nope, it’s just one possible conception of combat roles and I believe we could do better than the trinity. But, I don’t believe all DPS all the time works and that’s why we have these threads. Something is wrong and something can be improved.

[/quote]

That the thing in real life ppl do more then just there job at hand they help other ppl with there job no one is so pigeon hold to only doing one action. The 3 thing is just more of a western thing there is something about 3 being important. In real life there more then attk def and support rolls there a lot more nearly endless numbers of variation and to just lock a class into one of just 3 types is just out right silly. It was done for a reason because it was sufficiently easier for the game makers to work with.

The thing is the trinity is being artificially preserved in that ppl are falling back to the “good old days” point of view. If they started out only knowing one way to play an mmorpg in a trinity system they think any variation is out right a “sin.” Do you see where i am going with this? There is a lot of tie in to religion believes and the trinity system in mmorpg its an over all western point of view of how things are there even ppl who cant stand to have just 2 reason for something.

I am just saying at the end of all of this its a good thing to let ppl chose if they are going to play a trinity or trinity like system or to play with out a complete specialization and to remove this chose is to out right be blind to other ppl points of views and near xenophobia to non western views.

As for the honor bit if you say effectively “its true because i believe its true” not realty a point to be made.

Jski.6180:

Raine.1394:

No, the trinity is simply a construct that grows out of human experience. First, it acknowledges that humans generally approach group objectives through roles, and this is true whether it’s a scavenger hunt, football team, or brain surgery. The trinity decided among various role options and came up with three.

One thing to note is that the options come largely from human experience and archetype. And, that’s where they should come from. Is the trinity anything special that must be preserved? Nope, it’s just one possible conception of combat roles and I believe we could do better than the trinity. But, I don’t believe all DPS all the time works and that’s why we have these threads. Something is wrong and something can be improved.

That the thing in real life ppl do more then just there job at hand they help other ppl with there job no one is so pigeon hold to only doing one action. The 3 thing is just more of a western thing there is something about 3 being important. In real life there more then attk def and support rolls there a lot more nearly endless numbers of variation and to just lock a class into one of just 3 types is just out right silly. It was done for a reason because it was sufficiently easier for the game makers to work with.

The thing is the trinity is being artificially preserved in that ppl are falling back to the “good old days” point of view. If they started out only knowing one way to play an mmorpg in a trinity system they think any variation is out right a “sin.” Do you see where i am going with this? There is a lot of tie in to religion believes and the trinity system in mmorpg its an over all western point of view of how things are there even ppl who cant stand to have just 2 reason for something.

I am just saying at the end of all of this its a good thing to let ppl chose if they are going to play a trinity or trinity like system or to play with out a complete specialization and to remove this chose is to out right be blind to other ppl points of views and near xenophobia to non western views.

As for the honor bit if you say effectively “its true because i believe its true” not realty a point to be made.

Nothing really to respond to here except the last sentence. Where do you get “its true because i believe its true” from “I honor peoples preferences”? Could you explain further? I realize English is not your first language, but believe we can get to an eventual understanding here.

@ Raine.1394
“I think it’s fine to have a preference around the trinity and I honor that.”

You made it sound like that you have preference around the trinity and you honor that ppl have that. I think you where trying to say more on the lines of “I think it’s find to have preference and i honor that.” Added in “Around the trinity” means your still talking with in a trinity system making it the only system you honor and or work with.
Well that the way i was reading it sry if i miss took that.

Jski.6180:

@ Raine.1394
“I think it’s fine to have a preference around the trinity and I honor that.”

You made it sound like that you have preference around the trinity and you honor that ppl have that. I think you where trying to say more on the lines of “I think it’s find to have preference and i honor that.” Added in “Around the trinity” means your still talking with in a trinity system making it the only system you honor and or work with.
Well that the way i was reading it sry if i miss took that.

I have no preference around the trinity and said that explicitly and honestly. My issue is purely around the lack of meaningful combat roles in GW2.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I can see the POTENTIAL for far more unique complexity with this system, just that as of right now, the player “meta” and game design presented so far really isn’t taking advantage of it.

chemiclord.3978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I can see the POTENTIAL for far more unique complexity with this system, just that as of right now, the player “meta” and game design presented so far really isn’t taking advantage of it.

Not disagreeing with @Kaiyanwan, I would say that the player meta has largely to do with the game design. Players notice what works and incorporate that in their playstyle. It is the conception of combat in GW2 that is the problem.

Raine.1394:

Not disagreeing with @Kaiyanwan, I would say that the player meta has largely to do with the game design. Players notice what works and incorporate that in their playstyle. It is the conception of combat in GW2 that is the problem.

Well kinda… there are a couple problems.

1) Much of the early focus for combat was on 5-man dungeons. There really not all that many complex mechanics you can throw at such small groups simply because of the manpower limitations.

2) [and this is a problem both with players AND the developer here]… when Arena.net HAS gone with large scale, more complex fights, there’s been a large segment of the player base that absolutely refuses to put the work into actually succeeding with it. They dismiss it outright and complain it’s “not fun” and “too hard.”

Now where it’s also Arena.net’s problem is that with their offerings so far, it’s either 5-man, or 80+ requirement open world. Frankly, when you start getting into the numbers that Tequatl and the three-headed jungle wurm as for… it really CAN’T be all that complex either… because then you’ll only have the large guilds willing to try it, which is what we are seeing.

The bulk of players in the open world don’t want hard content; either they don’t have the time to master their skill set to be of use, or don’t WANT to master their skill set. They avoid this stuff like the plague, and with the nature of the open world, often wind up hindering those that DO want to try it even if said players aren’t TRYING to disrupt said content.

Right now, there’s little content that actually appeals to that small section of players that want hard content but don’t want to have to deal with the open world to do it. Personally, I don’t fully understand why this is a problem for Arena.net. I don’t understand why they are so absolutely against 20 or 40-man instanced content, for example.

It’s certainly not player participation… because they know that their latest open-world stuff isn’t being tried by the bulk of the player base anyway. It might as well be instanced with the tricks the groups that DO try it have to resort to get all their players together in one place. They have this vision for this open-world content that I am not the least bit convinced the bulk of their player base shares.

killcannon.2576:

Judge Banks.9018:

I still vote nothing will change as the game is broken at the core and no one wants to bother fixing that.

Do you mean you feel like the game was actually designed around a trinity system…but they just forgot to put in the healers and the tanks? If so, I agree.

The dungeon fights here remind me of when my friends and I would all take our dps toons into a dungeon and try to beat it when we played WoW. Can be done and was generally about as much flailing around and running as there is here.

I mean the game was designed to be as thoughtless and carefree as possible. No critical thinking required, all in the name of providing the ultimate casual experience. After all casual gamers are the biggest cash cows in the industry, preying on them should always be a #1 business priority.

It is them that you can thank for MINDLESS melee cleaving, and CAREFREE condition spamming on auto attacks.

chemiclord.3978:

Raine.1394:

Not disagreeing with @Kaiyanwan, I would say that the player meta has largely to do with the game design. Players notice what works and incorporate that in their playstyle. It is the conception of combat in GW2 that is the problem.

Well kinda… there are a couple problems.

1) Much of the early focus for combat was on 5-man dungeons. There really not all that many complex mechanics you can throw at such small groups simply because of the manpower limitations.

2) [and this is a problem both with players AND the developer here]… when Arena.net HAS gone with large scale, more complex fights, there’s been a large segment of the player base that absolutely refuses to put the work into actually succeeding with it. They dismiss it outright and complain it’s “not fun” and “too hard.”

Now where it’s also Arena.net’s problem is that with their offerings so far, it’s either 5-man, or 80+ requirement open world. Frankly, when you start getting into the numbers that Tequatl and the three-headed jungle wurm as for… it really CAN’T be all that complex either… because then you’ll only have the large guilds willing to try it, which is what we are seeing.

The bulk of players in the open world don’t want hard content; either they don’t have the time to master their skill set to be of use, or don’t WANT to master their skill set. They avoid this stuff like the plague, and with the nature of the open world, often wind up hindering those that DO want to try it even if said players aren’t TRYING to disrupt said content.

Right now, there’s little content that actually appeals to that small section of players that want hard content but don’t want to have to deal with the open world to do it. Personally, I don’t fully understand why this is a problem for Arena.net. I don’t understand why they are so absolutely against 20 or 40-man instanced content, for example.

It’s certainly not player participation… because they know that their latest open-world stuff isn’t being tried by the bulk of the player base anyway. It might as well be instanced with the tricks the groups that DO try it have to resort to get all their players together in one place. They have this vision for this open-world content that I am not the least bit convinced the bulk of their player base shares.

Truly challenging open world content simply does not belong in the open world. That is a design issue. You design open world PvE for the player you find there. The challenging, raid-like content, as you note, belongs in instances.

Like most other mmo’s you can go and play them if you want trinity, I do the same.

For what it is worth:

Carrying out a strategy devised by someone else does not mean that an encounter lacks strategy. Just because you did not originate the strategy does not mean it does not exist. Even in a group not using an online strategy guide there is a pretty good chance that the group has a leader and that it is his strategy/strategies that will be implemented. That does not mean that the other 4, or 6, or however many people are in the group, people are participating in strategic play.

That said, I am not particularly fond of guides. I prefer to brainstorm with the friends in my group to figure out for ourselves how to overcome a particular challenge. Its part of the fun for us.

There seems to be some confusion about terminology here. Some posters seem to confuse the terms, “script,” and, “strategy,” in the context applicable to this thread.

A scripted fight is one in which there is a specific strategy required for victory.

Another fight might have a guide written by players to demonstrate the strategy they used to win the fight. Following that guide would in fact be following a script. It would not indicate that the fight, in itself, is scripted, only that this particular group has chosen to follow a script in its approach to the fight. The fight might very well accommodate myriad approaches. Might be winnable by dozens of means. Might even be winnable through any reasonably non-foolish approach.

The key is that any fight can have a script. The first time you and your friends devise a plan of attack for your first time attempting a given instance in a game you are likely creating a script:

“I will go left to draw the group guarding the stairs away from the center, Joe you do the same on the right, Knight you attack the center and try to spike the healer down, Sherry you hold position and move in to reinforce whoever looks like they are struggling. Once the healer is down we push on through to the boss…”

That’s a script. Player created, on the spot, and even if it does work is not an indication that the dev created encounter is scripted, just that we created a script, as part of our strategy, to overcome a perceived challenge.

If there is only one specific way, or very few ways, to defeat an encounter then the encounter itself is scripted. If it is left open to the players to create (note “create” not “discover”) the strategy to defeat the encounter then the encounter is not, in itself, scripted even if the players create a script in the process of developing their strategy.

Ashen.2907:

For what it is worth:

Carrying out a strategy devised by someone else does not mean that an encounter lacks strategy. Just because you did not originate the strategy does not mean it does not exist. Even in a group not using an online strategy guide there is a pretty good chance that the group has a leader and that it is his strategy/strategies that will be implemented. That does not mean that the other 4, or 6, or however many people are in the group, people are participating in strategic play.

That said, I am not particularly fond of guides. I prefer to brainstorm with the friends in my group to figure out for ourselves how to overcome a particular challenge. Its part of the fun for us.

There seems to be some confusion about terminology here. Some posters seem to confuse the terms, “script,” and, “strategy,” in the context applicable to this thread.

A scripted fight is one in which there is a specific strategy required for victory.

Another fight might have a guide written by players to demonstrate the strategy they used to win the fight. Following that guide would in fact be following a script. It would not indicate that the fight, in itself, is scripted, only that this particular group has chosen to follow a script in its approach to the fight. The fight might very well accommodate myriad approaches. Might be winnable by dozens of means. Might even be winnable through any reasonably non-foolish approach.

The key is that any fight can have a script. The first time you and your friends devise a plan of attack for your first time attempting a given instance in a game you are likely creating a script:

“I will go left to draw the group guarding the stairs away from the center, Joe you do the same on the right, Knight you attack the center and try to spike the healer down, Sherry you hold position and move in to reinforce whoever looks like they are struggling. Once the healer is down we push on through to the boss…”

That’s a script. Player created, on the spot, and even if it does work is not an indication that the dev created encounter is scripted, just that we created a script, as part of our strategy, to overcome a perceived challenge.

If there is only one specific way, or very few ways, to defeat an encounter then the encounter itself is scripted. If it is left open to the players to create (note “create” not “discover”) the strategy to defeat the encounter then the encounter is not, in itself, scripted even if the players create a script in the process of developing their strategy.

Ashen, we actually pretty much agree with one another here. The only thing I would disagree with you on is the value of guides. For anyone but a raider on the bleeding edge, it is the responsibility of the player to be aware of the fight mechanics. In other words, if the fight is known and you are attempting it, you should know what you are doing. But, hey, I’ll take general agreement here as generally I have little to agree with others on the forums.

Raine.1394:

Ashen, we actually pretty much agree with one another here. The only thing I would disagree with you on is the value of guides. For anyone but a raider on the bleeding edge, it is the responsibility of the player to be aware of the fight mechanics. In other words, if the fight is known and you are attempting it, you should know what you are doing. But, hey, I’ll take general agreement here as generally I have little to agree with others on the forums.

I usually do agree with you (even if I don’t post it).

As to guides, yeah if I am pugging through content I do not know I will either read up on the fight, or inform the team of my ignorance (and offer to bow out of the group if it is a problem) and pay VERY close attention to what others are doing. But I got into online gaming as a means for an old (been playing together for 20+ years or so now) pen and paper DnD group to continue playing together when jobs, getting married, having kids, moving to another state, etc made the regular Friday night group impossible. For me MMOs were initially about playing with friends who would consider a guide to be comparable to reading the DnD GM’s notes when he wasn’t looking. Developing the strategy was a huge part of what made gaming fun.

To clarify, I do not at all judge others for wanting to use guides and the like. It just doesn’t (usually) fit my circle’s play style.

Ashen.2907:

Raine.1394:

Ashen, we actually pretty much agree with one another here. The only thing I would disagree with you on is the value of guides. For anyone but a raider on the bleeding edge, it is the responsibility of the player to be aware of the fight mechanics. In other words, if the fight is known and you are attempting it, you should know what you are doing. But, hey, I’ll take general agreement here as generally I have little to agree with others on the forums.

I usually do agree with you (even if I don’t post it).

As to guides, yeah if I am pugging through content I do not know I will either read up on the fight, or inform the team of my ignorance (and offer to bow out of the group if it is a problem) and pay VERY close attention to what others are doing. But I got into online gaming as a means for an old (been playing together for 20+ years or so now) pen and paper DnD group to continue playing together when jobs, getting married, having kids, moving to another state, etc made the regular Friday night group impossible. For me MMOs were initially about playing with friends who would consider a guide to be comparable to reading the DnD GM’s notes when he wasn’t looking. Developing the strategy was a huge part of what made gaming fun.

To clarify, I do not at all judge others for wanting to use guides and the like. It just doesn’t (usually) fit my circle’s play style.

Very good. This is where I am coming from here as well.

Raine.1394:

Except they weren’t addressing GW1 when they said “We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played.” They were addressing WoW, essentially.

Doing well by yourself comes at a cost, sadly. It means there will be no rich interdependence and humans derive a lot of value from that. However, I’m glad you are liking the current conception of combat—not all are.

I’m just pointing out that this " lfg tank / healer" thing IS a real issue not something they made up. It’s something that was even in their previous game.

Rich interdependence between humans? You have that in GW2. I love playing with a great group where everyone knows what/when to do it and get amazing clear times and great loot by being good.
But each of us is free to do his own thing, and doesn’t fail if the others do. In a sense we’re all doing well together – but each of us is doing well on his own – and it adds up to something great – an epic run.

You make mention with people not being happy with the way the game is right now – my question is this : Have you thought if GW2 is the game for you?
IF you want a game with very well defined roles and a trinity in place there are at LEAST a dozen successful MMOs you can play and enjoy that feeling that you’re missing.
GW2 is unique in the fact that it is the ONLY MMO OF ITS KIND. Why would you change it? For a minority of players that think they know better?
And they might even know better in terms of knowing what THEY want. But why change the game for them?

All classes in GW2 were designed to be selfreliant so they’d have to redo the entire game… not sure how this could even be suggested O.o

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

If it’s the former, then requesting a traditional trinity is not the answer. You simply need to experiment more with what’s available until you find something that fits. If nothing fits, then I think number 2 above is the catagory you fit in. And the only solution to that is to find a different game to play, because I doubt very much that GW2 will change it’s core systems to such a drastic extent, thank goodness.

A lot of players want and love the new soft trinity that GW2 offers, if you don’t like it then play something else. Don’t come here asking to change our game to be just like every other MMO out there. We came here because it was different, not because it was the same. You have plenty of other traditional trinity options to choose from, you don’t have to make EVERY game the same.

lol depends trinity with the current stat? terrible. can you imagine mid-raid just before an event annnnd your healers crash, then your tank rubber bands forcing mid lines to tank…..

This system is nothing more then an illusion of breaking the trinity system. still a dps,support,bunker its just they have now dumb down the system with useless traits. if mesmer run Retaliatory Demise or get kicked !!!!! you get pigeon holed into certain builds…..kinda ironic right?

you can run whatever you want….
I bet you jump at the chance at a chance for 2 condi necros, condi war , dps guard, right? I would of added whether or not you know these people but clearly this is why you choose pugs first and then as guildies and friends.

called me spoiled that the only mmo ive played was gw1, tis fine. the system is really only the tip of the iceberg, really what i miss most is customized skillbars…

Ps. Too late they are redesigning the game to go back to its roots…..they will be releasing it when they release the precursor scavanger hunt. huehuehuehue

Harper.4173:

Raine.1394:

Except they weren’t addressing GW1 when they said “We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played.” They were addressing WoW, essentially.

Doing well by yourself comes at a cost, sadly. It means there will be no rich interdependence and humans derive a lot of value from that. However, I’m glad you are liking the current conception of combat—not all are.

I’m just pointing out that this " lfg tank / healer" thing IS a real issue not something they made up. It’s something that was even in their previous game.

Rich interdependence between humans? You have that in GW2. I love playing with a great group where everyone knows what/when to do it and get amazing clear times and great loot by being good.
But each of us is free to do his own thing, and doesn’t fail if the others do. In a sense we’re all doing well together – but each of us is doing well on his own – and it adds up to something great – an epic run.

You make mention with people not being happy with the way the game is right now – my question is this : Have you thought if GW2 is the game for you?
IF you want a game with very well defined roles and a trinity in place there are at LEAST a dozen successful MMOs you can play and enjoy that feeling that you’re missing.
GW2 is unique in the fact that it is the ONLY MMO OF ITS KIND. Why would you change it? For a minority of players that think they know better?
And they might even know better in terms of knowing what THEY want. But why change the game for them?

You don’t have any interdependence, rich or otherwise in GW2. It’s everyman for himself, obviously. That is the nature of the Berserker battlefield; everyone enrages and just goes for it. It doesn’t matter that a random combo field might be operative.

Actually, I’m less focused on changing the game into something I want as to opposing irrationality in all its forms. That’s what’s happening primarily on the forums.

Harper.4173:

Raine.1394:

Except they weren’t addressing GW1 when they said “We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played.” They were addressing WoW, essentially.

Doing well by yourself comes at a cost, sadly. It means there will be no rich interdependence and humans derive a lot of value from that. However, I’m glad you are liking the current conception of combat—not all are.

I’m just pointing out that this " lfg tank / healer" thing IS a real issue not something they made up. It’s something that was even in their previous game.

Rich interdependence between humans? You have that in GW2. I love playing with a great group where everyone knows what/when to do it and get amazing clear times and great loot by being good.
But each of us is free to do his own thing, and doesn’t fail if the others do. In a sense we’re all doing well together – but each of us is doing well on his own – and it adds up to something great – an epic run.

You make mention with people not being happy with the way the game is right now – my question is this : Have you thought if GW2 is the game for you?
IF you want a game with very well defined roles and a trinity in place there are at LEAST a dozen successful MMOs you can play and enjoy that feeling that you’re missing.
GW2 is unique in the fact that it is the ONLY MMO OF ITS KIND. Why would you change it? For a minority of players that think they know better?
And they might even know better in terms of knowing what THEY want. But why change the game for them?

It’s not an issue for me. I just dinged 90 on my DPS monk today and never once spammed chat for a healer or tank. With an LFG tool assembling teams is trivial. But, hey, it’s good marketing for GW2, right?

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

With a trinity there would maybe be some meaningful PVE.

Without any roles, GW2 cannot have PVE. Instead, it’s ZVE. Zerg versus Environment. And this isn’t fun because the individual is unable to affect the outcome for better or for worse. It’ll either succeed or fail regardless of what I do. And this isn’t fun.

Psykotik.2691:

With a trinity there would maybe be some meaningful PVE.

Without any roles, GW2 cannot have PVE. Instead, it’s ZVE. Zerg versus Environment. And this isn’t fun because the individual is unable to affect the outcome for better or for worse. It’ll either succeed or fail regardless of what I do. And this isn’t fun.

Trinity with open tagging would still lead to the zerg.

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

No there not one chose in GW2 there only one chose in a trinity to play the trinity and wish you where a dps. GW2 is real chose in how you play you can play more then just the 3 class system because there are more then 3 types of things you can do in rpgs. Dps tank support hp / buff there also debuffing, hybrid all time, a tie in class, there the pet class (that can do something more then just have a meat shield and solo), there the utility class that goes beyond support, and there even item / environmental use class.

Psykotik.2691:

With a trinity there would maybe be some meaningful PVE.

Without any roles, GW2 cannot have PVE. Instead, it’s ZVE. Zerg versus Environment. And this isn’t fun because the individual is unable to affect the outcome for better or for worse. It’ll either succeed or fail regardless of what I do. And this isn’t fun.

Actually, you’re embarrassingly wrong. The reason we have zergs so common in PvE has nothing to do with the lack of trinity… it has to do with the PvE world being cooperative. People zerg because they get credit when they do, unlike games with competitive PvE where first group/person to tag the mob gets all the credit. Don’t blame the combat for the zerg.

VOLKON.1290:

Psykotik.2691:

With a trinity there would maybe be some meaningful PVE.

Without any roles, GW2 cannot have PVE. Instead, it’s ZVE. Zerg versus Environment. And this isn’t fun because the individual is unable to affect the outcome for better or for worse. It’ll either succeed or fail regardless of what I do. And this isn’t fun.

Actually, you’re embarrassingly wrong. The reason we have zergs so common in PvE has nothing to do with the lack of trinity… it has to do with the PvE world being cooperative. People zerg because they get credit when they do, unlike games with competitive PvE where first group/person to tag the mob gets all the credit. Don’t blame the combat for the zerg.

You are right that it is not the lack of the trinity. The problem with GW2 combat is the lack of meaningful combat roles. It leads to the. braindead simplistic combat that is GW2.

Jski.6180:

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

No there not one chose in GW2 there only one chose in a trinity to play the trinity and wish you where a dps. GW2 is real chose in how you play you can play more then just the 3 class system because there are more then 3 types of things you can do in rpgs. Dps tank support hp / buff there also debuffing, hybrid all time, a tie in class, there the pet class (that can do something more then just have a meat shield and solo), there the utility class that goes beyond support, and there even item / environmental use class.

I suppose it would be easier to understand you if English were your first language. I will certainly try to work with you here, but don’t understand a bit of the above.

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

killcannon, glad to have you back on the light side.

@Volkon, the game is hardly fun without a foil. You are the perfect foil, come back to me Volkon.

PvE wouldn’t be an awful zergfest.

I’d guess fewer one hit downs as well.

I’m actually enjoying sPvP so much right now because it actually has roles rather than choosing between three different tiers of DPS.

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

killcannon, glad to have you back on the light side.

Uh….ok? Thanks?

Jski.6180:

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

No there not one chose in GW2 there only one chose in a trinity to play the trinity and wish you where a dps. GW2 is real chose in how you play you can play more then just the 3 class system because there are more then 3 types of things you can do in rpgs. Dps tank support hp / buff there also debuffing, hybrid all time, a tie in class, there the pet class (that can do something more then just have a meat shield and solo), there the utility class that goes beyond support, and there even item / environmental use class.

Here are the only things that truly matter in game for your character:

You have enough toughness to survive fights for your skill level

Enough healing to heal yourself from hits you can’t avoid at your skill level

DPS

And don’t need toughness or healing as long as you have the zerg.

Anything else is just wishful thinking and wasted effort. There is only one class, DPS. Tank support is unneeded, buffing is unneeded, hybrid class is unneeded, debuffing class is unneeded, I don’t even know what a tie in class is, heal classes are unneeded, ranger pets get in the way as often as they help, utility class is unneeded, items or environmental classes serve no purpose.

The game relies on one thing and one thing only…..DPS….make that two things DPS and dodging. The game just isn’t designed for anything else. It’s made for people who can’t play the trinity, it’s a dramatically simplified system.

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?

I don’t know, throw 5 bunkers at 5 dps centric builds and tell me.

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?

I don’t know, throw 5 bunkers at 5 dps centric builds and tell me.

I’d rather wipe them all with a coordinated group that understands the importance of damage, support and control.

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?

I don’t know, throw 5 bunkers at 5 dps centric builds and tell me.

I’d rather wipe them all with a coordinated group that understands the importance of damage, support and control.

And you would get focused and destroyed by a coordinated dps group. It’s why almost all the instances can be soloed unless specifically designed otherwise. There is zero need for anyone else except you.

You don’t sacrifice cc, heals, or buffs when you roll dps. There is no trade off. It’s just skill.

3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.

Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?

Reverence.6915:

3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.

Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?

Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? And pvp is the least popular game type in the game?

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?

I don’t know, throw 5 bunkers at 5 dps centric builds and tell me.

I’d rather wipe them all with a coordinated group that understands the importance of damage, support and control.

And you would get focused and destroyed by a coordinated dps group. It’s why almost all the instances can be soloed unless specifically designed otherwise. There is zero need for anyone else except you.

You don’t sacrifice cc, heals, or buffs when you roll dps. There is no trade off. It’s just skill.

I’d like to meet you in an sPvP arena or in WvW. You sound like an easy kill.

Very very few people in sPvP run pure damage or pure condi because it’s easily countered. Condi gets countered by cc/burst (and Ele diamond skin, but that’s a whole different can of worms), DPS gets countered by bunker/condi, Bunker gets countered by condi/burst.

In WvW, most people run Soldiers, Clerics, Knights, Valkyrie and Dire gear. Why? Because staying alive longer to do more damage over time is more important than hitting big and dying instantly. Why do commanders ask for different fields in WvW? Because support is important. CC is important. Teamwork is important

Of course, it’s not the case in PvE. Stack and spank is all the rage these days. That’s what you get for catering to a casual audience though, and I don’t mind. It just means I can enter any dungeon with my WvW gear and still do well. There’s potential there though. ANet just needs to make bosses attack at the same speed players do. A few bosses where you can’t stack and spank (such as P1 in AC), you can see many many parties wiping because of poor play. More of that is needed.

If we had a trinity, we’d have many players quitting the game. Trinity isn’t fun, new, dynamic or exciting. There wouldn’t be any need to dodge. There wouldn’t be any need to call for different fields/finishers. Combat wouldn’t be as dynamic.

killcannon.2576:

Reverence.6915:

3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.

Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?

Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? You get lost on the way to the pvp forum?

You don’t PvP much do you killcannon? Other MMOs it’s basically team with healers wins… If your team has no healers, but the other does you may aswell just afk…

cc/burst, bunker/condi, condi/burst what do these all have in common? DPS, just different flavors. At no point is dps not the largest contributing factor in killing someone. A pure bunker, cc, or heal build takes no part in the meta.

Why do commanders call for different fields in WvW? To stack buffs to dps better. Teamwork is the zerg, hence the gameplay meta in wvw. Stack and spank is the exact same thing people do in wvw as they do in pve. WvW is more zerg like than most of pve.

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Reverence.6915:

3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.

Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?

Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? You get lost on the way to the pvp forum?

You don’t PvP much do you killcannon? Other MMOs it’s basically team with healers wins… If your team has no healers, but the other does you may aswell just afk…

incorrect, the team who kills the others healers first wins.

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Reverence.6915:

3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.

Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?

Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? You get lost on the way to the pvp forum?

You don’t PvP much do you killcannon? Other MMOs it’s basically team with healers wins… If your team has no healers, but the other does you may aswell just afk…

incorrect, the team who kills the others healers first wins.

That is the central aspect of strategy, generally, though not the only one. If it’s arena, it might just be killing the squishiest one or ignoring the squishiest one for that matter. Combat is rather rich under the trinity, unlike the stack and wail combat of GW2.

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Reverence.6915:

3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.

Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?

Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? You get lost on the way to the pvp forum?

You don’t PvP much do you killcannon? Other MMOs it’s basically team with healers wins… If your team has no healers, but the other does you may aswell just afk…

incorrect, the team who kills the others healers first wins.

That is the central aspect of strategy, generally, though not the only one. If it’s arena, it might just be killing the squishiest one or ignoring the squishiest one for that matter. Combat is rather rich under the trinity, unlike the stack and wail combat of GW2.

If you really think trinity is so “rich” and GW2 PvP is stack and wail. Why are you even playing this game? There’s countless MMOs with trinity… Why don’t you just play them instead of trying to turn GW2 into one of them?

hellsmachine.4085:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Reverence.6915:

3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.

Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?

Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? You get lost on the way to the pvp forum?

You don’t PvP much do you killcannon? Other MMOs it’s basically team with healers wins… If your team has no healers, but the other does you may aswell just afk…

incorrect, the team who kills the others healers first wins.

That is the central aspect of strategy, generally, though not the only one. If it’s arena, it might just be killing the squishiest one or ignoring the squishiest one for that matter. Combat is rather rich under the trinity, unlike the stack and wail combat of GW2.

If you really think trinity is so “rich” and GW2 PvP is stack and wail. Why are you even playing this game? There’s countless MMOs with trinity… Why don’t you just play them instead of trying to turn GW2 into one of them?

I’m playing WoW currently. Thanks for the info.

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Jski.6180:

Rin.1046:

Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:

1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.

There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.

There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.

Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?

DPS

Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.

Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?

I don’t know, throw 5 bunkers at 5 dps centric builds and tell me.

Throw 5 tanks into most WoW dungeons and they will fail as well.

A balanced PvP group will beat 5 pure DPS.

Unfortunately, the same is far from true in PvE, and it is why I have quit playing it even though I’m by far a more PvE person.