(edited by Raine.1394)
What would GW2 be like with trinity?
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
You keep up with this silly claim about WoW requiring strategy. However there isn’t a raid in the game where the players develop a strategy for the fight, it’s all spoon fed to them via a script.
By the way, doing Jungle Wurm right now (well, in a few minutes for the next try). We had all three heads down and flopping. Good luck trying to convince anyone that this fight is stack and wail or that it would be even remotely as good with an archaic trinity system.
gtg… strategy session before the fight…
#TeamJadeQuarry
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
You keep up with this silly claim about WoW requiring strategy. However there isn’t a raid in the game where the players develop a strategy for the fight, it’s all spoon fed to them via a script.
By the way, doing Jungle Wurm right now (well, in a few minutes for the next try). We had all three heads down and flopping. Good luck trying to convince anyone that this fight is stack and wail or that it would be even remotely as good with an archaic trinity system.
gtg… strategy session before the fight…
That’s why i suggested you actually watch it, the trinity, in action. It would be impossible to ignore. Especially with the braindead stack and wail combat that is Gw2 combat.
(edited by Raine.1394)
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
You keep up with this silly claim about WoW requiring strategy. However there isn’t a raid in the game where the players develop a strategy for the fight, it’s all spoon fed to them via a script.
By the way, doing Jungle Wurm right now (well, in a few minutes for the next try). We had all three heads down and flopping. Good luck trying to convince anyone that this fight is stack and wail or that it would be even remotely as good with an archaic trinity system.
gtg… strategy session before the fight…
Keep deluding yourself if you think GW2 takes more strategy. When’s the last time you did a WoW raid? People accuse WoW of being easy, but that’s because they already use strats plastered over the internet. The same is happening to GW2 now. There are many videos and guides out there for Wurm and Marionette.
At least in WoW, you are offered more variety and difficulty tiers to choose from. LFR/Normal/Hardcore, for 10/25 man raids. In GW2, the only hard part, is requiring pugs to get in vent and listen. Look how quickly Tequatl got trivialized by TTS.
This isn’t to say that A-net isn’t pumping out challenging content, because they are, but it’s foolish to say that a trinity MMO is less strategic.
Yes, really. Not only does the team need to coordinate thier crowd control, but they also need to think about their own survival and the survival of the other team members. A good, coordinated, group can dominate a larger group in WvW if played right. And to do this you need to have a lot more on your mind than simply healing your allies and keeping out of harms way. Or grabbing agro and keeping it.
The old trinity had its complexities, but it split those tasks (complexities) up between the different members of the group, so that each member only had a few things to do. In GW2, EVERY member has to think about EVERYTHING. And has been given the tools to deal with it.
That is not to say that players cannot focus on a particular role, they can. It just means that while focused on a role, they must also be very mindful of, and take part in, other roles.
But like I said, and was promptly ignored by your non-constructive comment, the AI in GW2 is no where near up to scratch to make real use of or challenge the combat system it has. With the exception of a handful of encounters maybe. If the general AI was vastly improved the combat in GW2 (PvE) would feel a whole lot better.
Also, no combat system is perfect for everyone and every combat system undergoes a massive amount of balancing. But overall, GW2’s reinvented trinity (AI aside) is a much better system IMO.
Coordinate CC? ‘Think’ about your own survival?
Last time I checked, you just dumped all the kitten on a target and dodged whatever attacks and AoE were well-telegraphed. Oh and you rezzed whoever happened to die, if you could be bothered to pause the dps spam for a moment.
What makes you think you don’t coordinate CC and think about your own survival/ally’s survival in a trinity? In GW1 you actually have to think about a whole lot more things than just your own kitten , like you do in GW2 for the most part. Positioning matters, shutting down via hexes, blinds, snares or rupts is key. There is no aggro skills so whoever fronts needs to bodyblock the mob or else they’ll wreck havon on your softies. You can also choose to have meat shields instead of tanks, which means you’ll be doing a lot of micoring and pulling yourself instead. Is that hard? Not quite, but it’s still a lot deeper than the hack&slashing in GW2. Moreover, support in trinities, e.g. GW1 – from heals/prots to defensive CC – is there to help you survive, not to carry deadweight. That role of suport shifted largely on the individual player in GW2, killing off any real supoprt, together with the need for it.
You’re quite deluded if you think red-barring and keeping aggro with shouts is the kind of trinity I advocate. And you’re also rather deluded to imagine that the roles are set in stone when it comes to good (ie. soft) trinities.
To say everyone has to think about everything in GW2 is such a load of bs, when the reality is, most only have to think about themselves, because the tools that they have at their disposal are so immensly limited, not to mention support apparently isn’t even wantd, because it increases the dungeon run time. GW2 tried reinventing the wheel to score a few extra points with potential customers (and hey, I guess at leats that strategy worked quite well!), but at the end what you are left with is shallow dps race that a monkey could pull off.
But hey, if one is a former WoW/Lotro player, than GW2 really does shine in comparison. However it is not my fault players waste their time on kitten grind-based mmos and then try to preach how trinity is bad.
Below I’ll quote a couple of posts that further support my point.
RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
It still amazes me, the game has no trinity (the original one – DPS, tank, healer) and it was going to be always that way. It has been advertised that way and people still goes and buys the game and complain it has no trinity and demands it (yes, some of you demands it). Play the game the way it is or play something else, is it that hard?
as a long time supporter of lets call it “roles”:
well, nobody wants a “hard” trinity where warriors and guardians are “tanks”, elementalists are healers and the rest are DPS.
what we do want is that which was actually advertised. and in contrary to your post, they have never said that there will be no tanks and no healers, they said there will be no class trinity.
what they promised is that if you want to play tank you will not have to play warrior, if you want to play healer you don’t have to be priest/cleric etc, you can play a tank thief or for example a healer necromancer.
every class can be any role that player want to play.
and the system itself support this idea.
the fact that we have all skill trees and all armors for any class shows us that this is how this game was supposed to be played.what we ( OK, I am ) whining about, is that at least in PVE, I cannot chose to play healing elementalist or tanking warrior because i will hinder my group.
and if we stick to semantics then i cannot chose to play SUPPORT elementalist and BUNKER warrior because i will hinder my group.
what i want is that a player that chose to play support or bunker or CC role and invested in such trait line and armor will be viable.but he will never be. it is all around the damage.
newbs wear soldier armor, middles play knight/cavalier, pros play berzerker.support lines are useless because healing power do nothing and the CDs are too high. bunker lines are useless, shields on warriors and guardians are for weird niche play, which is totally noneffective in PVE.
CC is mostly useless due to defiant and short duration’s.some examples for games with soft trinity: GW1 and DDO where you can group up almost with everybody you want and play effectively.
so, this game is broken, it is still one of the best games today. but it is unfortunately broken.
What will you find on the GW2 side? Well, I noticed that a theme emerged early. In the videos you will learn where to stack so that you can hit the boss, but they can’t hit you. (I had to laugh when one guy described this as LoS. Well, yes, I suppose.) Then after the boss is burned down by the berserkers-only group just wailing on him, you next learn strategies to avoid aggro in getting to the next boss.
In other words I’m suggesting you get some actual experience of the two systems. If you would honestly do this you wouldn’t hold the position you currently do.
RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
Someone who says that GW2 boss fights in dungeons are something else than boring has never had cool boss fights in a RPG it seems.
kitten , if we are talking about the other game I’ve stopped playing over half a decade ago, look back at AQ40. When it was still new and shiny. Battleguard Sartura, Ouro, C’thun.
Just great trinity fights. Very little tank&spank. Very much movement. And still some control over the bosses.I am fairly sure, that the raids must have improved over the years. The trinity is not bad, as long as the system it gets placed in is fresh and exciting.
What is bad though is, if every class feels more or less the same, as if you want to be efficient and therefore wanted in an instance, you are pigeonholed into one type of gameplay…
I still vote nothing will change as the game is broken at the core and no one wants to bother fixing that.
+1 for emphasis
RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
I still vote nothing will change as the game is broken at the core and no one wants to bother fixing that.
Do you mean you feel like the game was actually designed around a trinity system…but they just forgot to put in the healers and the tanks? If so, I agree.
The dungeon fights here remind me of when my friends and I would all take our dps toons into a dungeon and try to beat it when we played WoW. Can be done and was generally about as much flailing around and running as there is here.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
You keep up with this silly claim about WoW requiring strategy. However there isn’t a raid in the game where the players develop a strategy for the fight, it’s all spoon fed to them via a script.
By the way, doing Jungle Wurm right now (well, in a few minutes for the next try). We had all three heads down and flopping. Good luck trying to convince anyone that this fight is stack and wail or that it would be even remotely as good with an archaic trinity system.
gtg… strategy session before the fight…
That’s why i suggested you actually watch it, the trinity, in action. It would be impossible to ignore. Especially with the braindead stack and wail combat that is Gw2 combat.
Are you suggesting that the Marionette, Tequatl and the Jungle Wurm are “braindead [sic] stack and wail” fights? Like I’ve said (and you’ve chosen to ignore), I’ve been part of the trinity in action. The scripted nature of the fights is indeed impossible to ignore. You refuse to answer whether or not players actually develop strategies for the fights which is understandable because they don’t, they’re handed a script to follow and that’s it. Meanwhile, with the Jungle Wurm for example, people are developing strategies on the fly trying to figure out what works (grats to the two servers that succeeded so far). People are in TS offering suggestions, trying new things. You couldn’t do that with WoW raids, for deviating from the script led to near instant failure. When the add on tells you to do something, you do it or die.
#TeamJadeQuarry
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
You keep up with this silly claim about WoW requiring strategy. However there isn’t a raid in the game where the players develop a strategy for the fight, it’s all spoon fed to them via a script.
By the way, doing Jungle Wurm right now (well, in a few minutes for the next try). We had all three heads down and flopping. Good luck trying to convince anyone that this fight is stack and wail or that it would be even remotely as good with an archaic trinity system.
gtg… strategy session before the fight…
That’s why i suggested you actually watch it, the trinity, in action. It would be impossible to ignore. Especially with the braindead stack and wail combat that is Gw2 combat.
Are you suggesting that the Marionette, Tequatl and the Jungle Wurm are “braindead [sic] stack and wail” fights? Like I’ve said (and you’ve chosen to ignore), I’ve been part of the trinity in action. The scripted nature of the fights is indeed impossible to ignore. You refuse to answer whether or not players actually develop strategies for the fights which is understandable because they don’t, they’re handed a script to follow and that’s it. Meanwhile, with the Jungle Wurm for example, people are developing strategies on the fly trying to figure out what works (grats to the two servers that succeeded so far). People are in TS offering suggestions, trying new things. You couldn’t do that with WoW raids, for deviating from the script led to near instant failure. When the add on tells you to do something, you do it or die.
I’m suggesting that the Marionette, Tequatl and the Jungle Wurm are totally scripted fights. How would I know that? Just read any “how to kill X” threads on these forums. They essentially provide the script. If you follow the script you will be successful, if you don’t you will fail. GW2 combat is essentially totally scripted. Is it more advanced because you have to read the script rather than have a addon read it for you? I’d probably argue for the value of the addon in the case of totally scripted fights like in GW2.
(edited by Raine.1394)
How is a trinity any less braindead than a zerg?
Tank rushes in first, spams aggro control skills. Healers spam healing skills to keep him alive. DDers spam their DPS skills to kill it.
Its still just spamming and wailing the same skills repeatedly, only in a forced and conforming trinity format.
Never mind the spamming in LFG for specific class types.
Currently I never have to put a run on hold spamming for a healer and hoping he’s decent, and I’m quite happy with that.
I don’t think Anet handled the lack of trinity quite properly and theres a lot more that could be done, I still think the MMO genre as a whole needs to move away from the role-locking trinity. Hopefully GW2 started something that itself or even other MMO’s with refine into something better than we’ve had.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
But at least a no trinity system doesn’t hold you back waiting for another player to be able to play the game. At least you’re still self-sufficient.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
But at least a no trinity system doesn’t hold you back waiting for another player to be able to play the game. At least you’re still self-sufficient.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
How is a trinity any less braindead than a zerg?
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
(edited by Raine.1394)
How is a trinity any less braindead than a zerg?
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
The simpler GW2 boss fights can allow for the berserker style of fighting, no one is denying that, however it’s certainly not limiting in that regards and anything else works as well. You can take any mix of characters, any mix of armor types and succeed. The difference between this and actual trinityesque scripted combat is that with the scripted trinity type you’re not only forced into a set number of tanks and healers (with the rest dps) but you’re also forced into a single add on driven dance in which you must follow the steps or fail. To make matters worse, you can’t deviate at all as a player… a tank must tank and only tank, a healer must heal the tank and ignore everything else around him, dps can only stand there and cycle their dps rotations. It is far, far more limiting in what you can do than in a trinity-free system.
#TeamJadeQuarry
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
If only berserker was an archetype.
How is a trinity any less braindead than a zerg?
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
The simpler GW2 boss fights can allow for the berserker style of fighting, no one is denying that, however it’s certainly not limiting in that regards and anything else works as well. You can take any mix of characters, any mix of armor types and succeed. The difference between this and actual trinityesque scripted combat is that with the scripted trinity type you’re not only forced into a set number of tanks and healers (with the rest dps) but you’re also forced into a single add on driven dance in which you must follow the steps or fail. To make matters worse, you can’t deviate at all as a player… a tank must tank and only tank, a healer must heal the tank and ignore everything else around him, dps can only stand there and cycle their dps rotations. It is far, far more limiting in what you can do than in a trinity-free system.
Yeah, don’t forget that GW2 combat is totally scripted. How did I figure that out? Well, I read a ‘how to kill X’ thread so that I would know how to kill X and not mess everything up. I found if you follow the script in GW2 you will be successful. If you don’t you will fail. Kinda boring, eh?
But you don’t need to put together a team in GW2 unless you are looking to do a speed run.
spit
Sorry, bad taste in my mouth. Any group can methodically do a dungeon in GW2. It’s only those that want to do it as quickly as possible with zero deaths so they can go do it again 4 more times this evening cares about party construction.
Yeah, we were basically talking instances. But, I did broaden it to include the open world encounter in GW2 which is all about overflow dancing. What a painful way to design encounters as it makes players responsible for working a workaround rather than providing content that just works. WoW and their LFG tool definitely wins all around. BTW, doesn’t matter if you spit or not. Monkeys do that. A rational argument is all that is required.
You seemed to miss my not so subtle dislike for all things “speed” that have permeated MMOs. Understandable when it’s a subscription based game, don’t want to pay for longer than I have to but in a B2P or F2P? It’s an example of if all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail. It’s all “how do I level quickly” or getting BIS gear or which skill/trait combinations are the best for this profession/class. Basically the sole quest in every MMO has become finding the closest thing to an “easy” button or God Mode only to turn around and complain that the game is to easy.
You want hard, PUG. Use white gear. Use tactics beyond dog piling.
But no. You want routine familiarity. You want your little role in playing to be all mapped out. I’m the meat puppet, I’m the healer, I’m the damage dealer, I’m buffs/debuffs and do your niche’s equivalent of pressing one and occasionally 3. It’s like school kids in Japan. They want to assert their uniqueness by tweaking their school uniforms but then they go and tweak them the exact same way.
My dislike for the Trinity is because I got to this level playing my way, killing along the way and now that I’m on a team, I MUST do only one thing and that’s not dealing damage. That’s what I like about GW2. Everybody joins the fray.
i like the firs part but the last bit is quite the opposite of what is really happening.
try to team up for a dungeon as a necro, fat chance they ether force you to have max gear or have a certain build….if you’re accepted at all that is.
if you are an ele, guardian or thief you get in no problem but anything less then that and it’s advertising your submission on how others want you to play.
i am to much of a rebel to go with the flow and to independent to accept someone’s shouting on how i should play, i play how i like and in what pace. (not that i am slow or anything but i can’t stand the whole speed clean crap, i take my time playing the game so i enjoy it better)
like i said, i like the first part but you ended it in a….let’s say underestimated way.
To be honest, I think the only way meaningful combat would actually happen is if PvPers were allowed to play the monsters. Turn their chat off and let them be the bad guys. You want strategic and realistic combat. THAT would be the way it would happen.
This, so much this. This is something I felt should have been added to the genre a long time ago. It would be an awesome way for PvP players to have open world PvP without it upsetting the PvE players.
Every player would be able to choose a monster character and go out into the world to hunt players and join in on events. To start with they would be no more powerful, in terms of skills, etc, than normal mobs, but because they are player controlled they could use dodge, hide behind objects and ambush people and generally use tactics to make combat more interesting.
For every player they attacked, or event they participated in, (win or fail) they would gain monster XP, which they could use to either buy more powerful monsters to spawn as or to upgrade the current monster by adding or improving its skills. Providing the monster character remains less powerful than an equal level player of course.
There could even be unlockable champion player monster characters, which they could log into for a limited time period, which once defeated could not be used again for a set amount of time.
I would love an option like this and it would make PvE a whole lot more fun. Providing it was done right.
This, so much this. This is something I felt should have been added to the genre a long time ago. It would be an awesome way for PvP players to have open world PvP without it upsetting the PvE players.
I think they’d be quite upset, and rather quickly too, after getting stomped into the ground repeatedly.
Every player would be able to choose a monster character and go out into the world to hunt players and join in on events. To start with they would be no more powerful, in terms of skills, etc, than normal mobs, but because they are player controlled they could use dodge, hide behind objects and ambush people and generally use tactics to make combat more interesting.
Well, imagine players disguised as monsters ganging up on players in pve…it’d be kinda like WvW, but worse. Oh the screams and cries of agony would waken the dead.
Although the concept looks appealing on paper, I have serious doubts it’d work well in theory, because it’d virtually mean turning the whole game into one big WvW blob.
RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
You could just give every class the ability to spec into either tank/heal/dps.
Say a banner warrior could be a healer. Or a necro could use pet to tank etc.
I played a game without a trinity for five years and the most I ever waited for a certain class would be the 30 seconds it takes someone to switch toons if you didnt have enough healers/tanks/ect. in the group to begin with. Pugging everything might mean you have to wait a few minutes but with a high population game that has a good lfg tool I doubt you would ever wait more than 5 minutes for anything.
Besides this game already has a trinity, its support/control/dps instead of healer/tank/dps. Except that dps is basically the only thing anyone ever needs to run in all of the end game content.
Trinity or not doesnt make a game fun or challenging, a well designed game does
Borolis Pass – [TOVL]
Aeneaaa – 80 engineer
Aeeneaa – 80 Ele
Aeneaaa – 80 engineer
Aeeneaa – 80 Ele
How is a trinity any less braindead than a zerg?
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
The simpler GW2 boss fights can allow for the berserker style of fighting, no one is denying that, however it’s certainly not limiting in that regards and anything else works as well. You can take any mix of characters, any mix of armor types and succeed. The difference between this and actual trinityesque scripted combat is that with the scripted trinity type you’re not only forced into a set number of tanks and healers (with the rest dps) but you’re also forced into a single add on driven dance in which you must follow the steps or fail. To make matters worse, you can’t deviate at all as a player… a tank must tank and only tank, a healer must heal the tank and ignore everything else around him, dps can only stand there and cycle their dps rotations. It is far, far more limiting in what you can do than in a trinity-free system.
Yeah, don’t forget that GW2 combat is totally scripted. How did I figure that out? Well, I read a ‘how to kill X’ thread so that I would know how to kill X and not mess everything up. I found if you follow the script in GW2 you will be successful. If you don’t you will fail. Kinda boring, eh?
This may come as a surprise, but there’s a difference between learning the dynamics of the fight and following a strict script. In WoW, for one, there’s an add on (I forget the name) that basically yells at you what’s about to happen next, where to go, what to do, etc. For those fights, you’re told step by step what to do next. With the wurm it’s much broader… say for example 20 people need to do this to get the wurm invulnerable while some groups take out eggs and spawns then when vulnerable burn the wurm… the difference is in GW2 we learn what to do but in WoW you’re told how to do it.
#TeamJadeQuarry
How is a trinity any less braindead than a zerg?
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
The simpler GW2 boss fights can allow for the berserker style of fighting, no one is denying that, however it’s certainly not limiting in that regards and anything else works as well. You can take any mix of characters, any mix of armor types and succeed. The difference between this and actual trinityesque scripted combat is that with the scripted trinity type you’re not only forced into a set number of tanks and healers (with the rest dps) but you’re also forced into a single add on driven dance in which you must follow the steps or fail. To make matters worse, you can’t deviate at all as a player… a tank must tank and only tank, a healer must heal the tank and ignore everything else around him, dps can only stand there and cycle their dps rotations. It is far, far more limiting in what you can do than in a trinity-free system.
Yeah, don’t forget that GW2 combat is totally scripted. How did I figure that out? Well, I read a ‘how to kill X’ thread so that I would know how to kill X and not mess everything up. I found if you follow the script in GW2 you will be successful. If you don’t you will fail. Kinda boring, eh?
This may come as a surprise, but there’s a difference between learning the dynamics of the fight and following a strict script. In WoW, for one, there’s an add on (I forget the name) that basically yells at you what’s about to happen next, where to go, what to do, etc. For those fights, you’re told step by step what to do next. With the wurm it’s much broader… say for example 20 people need to do this to get the wurm invulnerable while some groups take out eggs and spawns then when vulnerable burn the wurm… the difference is in GW2 we learn what to do but in WoW you’re told how to do it.
same thing in GW2, players yell at you what to do or curse at you because you like to do something you enjoy, outside the commander’s wishes.
I love how people are defending the gw2 model by saying the marionette fight wouldn’t be possible with a trinity system… What?!?!
Honestly have you even ever played a game like wow or eq? If we had a trinity and sub trinity systems this fight could be so much more than it is now…. All the fight is now is, quick burn these walking mobs down, now hurry and go in the door and spam dps, avoid this attack, spam dps… How engaging and how fun…
Seriously ppl when will you realize that anet screwed up the core game mechanics. They would’ve been better off going with a soft trinity even. It would allow for decent group make ups atleast. Anything better then the dps quick zergfeast the game is now…
Sylvari Engi- Wait! Don’t leaf!
Asura Ele- Sir Im afraid youre short. Why is it always short jokes. No, youre short on the bill.
Asura Ele- Sir Im afraid youre short. Why is it always short jokes. No, youre short on the bill.
How is a trinity any less braindead than a zerg?
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
The simpler GW2 boss fights can allow for the berserker style of fighting, no one is denying that, however it’s certainly not limiting in that regards and anything else works as well. You can take any mix of characters, any mix of armor types and succeed. The difference between this and actual trinityesque scripted combat is that with the scripted trinity type you’re not only forced into a set number of tanks and healers (with the rest dps) but you’re also forced into a single add on driven dance in which you must follow the steps or fail. To make matters worse, you can’t deviate at all as a player… a tank must tank and only tank, a healer must heal the tank and ignore everything else around him, dps can only stand there and cycle their dps rotations. It is far, far more limiting in what you can do than in a trinity-free system.
Yeah, don’t forget that GW2 combat is totally scripted. How did I figure that out? Well, I read a ‘how to kill X’ thread so that I would know how to kill X and not mess everything up. I found if you follow the script in GW2 you will be successful. If you don’t you will fail. Kinda boring, eh?
This may come as a surprise, but there’s a difference between learning the dynamics of the fight and following a strict script. In WoW, for one, there’s an add on (I forget the name) that basically yells at you what’s about to happen next, where to go, what to do, etc. For those fights, you’re told step by step what to do next. With the wurm it’s much broader… say for example 20 people need to do this to get the wurm invulnerable while some groups take out eggs and spawns then when vulnerable burn the wurm… the difference is in GW2 we learn what to do but in WoW you’re told how to do it.
same thing in GW2, players yell at you what to do or curse at you because you like to do something you enjoy, outside the commander’s wishes.
Eh… what? What does that have to do with ‘knowing what you need to do’ vs. ‘scripted fights’? Besides, I didn’t see that yesterday with the TTS commanders at all. They guided people along, yelled at no one and even when we didn’t beat the fight talks went straight to trying to refine what we were doing to make the next run better. This is a far cry from a fight failing you because you didn’t follow the script so one player went down and resulted in a wipe.
#TeamJadeQuarry
I played a game without a trinity for five years and the most I ever waited for a certain class would be the 30 seconds it takes someone to switch toons if you didnt have enough healers/tanks/ect. in the group to begin with. Pugging everything might mean you have to wait a few minutes but with a high population game that has a good lfg tool I doubt you would ever wait more than 5 minutes for anything.
Besides this game already has a trinity, its support/control/dps instead of healer/tank/dps. Except that dps is basically the only thing anyone ever needs to run in all of the end game content.
Trinity or not doesnt make a game fun or challenging, a well designed game does
Uh what?
Gw2 has no trinity what so ever. Every player is self sufficient all on their own. That is where the problem lies. We have no need for anyone’s help. We can all do it ourselves. The game doesn’t require tactics or team play. It’s all about dps and that’s because…. Ding ding ding, everyone is self sufficient.
The entire core mechanics of the game/player need to be reworked to make any truely challenging content possible.
Sylvari Engi- Wait! Don’t leaf!
Asura Ele- Sir Im afraid youre short. Why is it always short jokes. No, youre short on the bill.
Asura Ele- Sir Im afraid youre short. Why is it always short jokes. No, youre short on the bill.
I love how people are defending the gw2 model by saying the marionette fight wouldn’t be possible with a trinity system… What?!?!
Honestly have you even ever played a game like wow or eq? If we had a trinity and sub trinity systems this fight could be so much more than it is now…. All the fight is now is, quick burn these walking mobs down, now hurry and go in the door and spam dps, avoid this attack, spam dps… How engaging and how fun…
Seriously ppl when will you realize that anet screwed up the core game mechanics. They would’ve been better off going with a soft trinity even. It would allow for decent group make ups atleast. Anything better then the dps quick zergfeast the game is now…
Well, since you’re the one making the silly assertion that the Marionette fight would be so much better with a trinity how about you attempt to back up your words and give us an idea as to how you’d redesign the fight wrapped around the trinity concept. You’ll need to be concise, group make-ups, mechanics,… c’mon, share your brilliance with us that we may bask in the warm glow of it, ok? Please?
#TeamJadeQuarry
I love how people are defending the gw2 model by saying the marionette fight wouldn’t be possible with a trinity system… What?!?!
Honestly have you even ever played a game like wow or eq? If we had a trinity and sub trinity systems this fight could be so much more than it is now…. All the fight is now is, quick burn these walking mobs down, now hurry and go in the door and spam dps, avoid this attack, spam dps… How engaging and how fun…
Seriously ppl when will you realize that anet screwed up the core game mechanics. They would’ve been better off going with a soft trinity even. It would allow for decent group make ups atleast. Anything better then the dps quick zergfeast the game is now…
Well, since you’re the one making the silly assertion that the Marionette fight would be so much better with a trinity how about you attempt to back up your words and give us an idea as to how you’d redesign the fight wrapped around the trinity concept. You’ll need to be concise, group make-ups, mechanics,… c’mon, share your brilliance with us that we may bask in the warm glow of it, ok? Please?
Sorry, I dont have any food.
Sylvari Engi- Wait! Don’t leaf!
Asura Ele- Sir Im afraid youre short. Why is it always short jokes. No, youre short on the bill.
Asura Ele- Sir Im afraid youre short. Why is it always short jokes. No, youre short on the bill.
I love how people are defending the gw2 model by saying the marionette fight wouldn’t be possible with a trinity system… What?!?!
Honestly have you even ever played a game like wow or eq? If we had a trinity and sub trinity systems this fight could be so much more than it is now…. All the fight is now is, quick burn these walking mobs down, now hurry and go in the door and spam dps, avoid this attack, spam dps… How engaging and how fun…
Seriously ppl when will you realize that anet screwed up the core game mechanics. They would’ve been better off going with a soft trinity even. It would allow for decent group make ups atleast. Anything better then the dps quick zergfeast the game is now…
Well, since you’re the one making the silly assertion that the Marionette fight would be so much better with a trinity how about you attempt to back up your words and give us an idea as to how you’d redesign the fight wrapped around the trinity concept. You’ll need to be concise, group make-ups, mechanics,… c’mon, share your brilliance with us that we may bask in the warm glow of it, ok? Please?
Sorry, I dont have any food.
That’s ok, I didn’t think you did.
#TeamJadeQuarry
this game (GW2) is built around the philosophy that each and every player character should be built around self-sufficency. the problem, is that too many people still want some sort of babysitter. the new babysitter isn’t a healer per se, but someone else to drop combo-fields, someone else to drop blast finishers, someone else to remove group conditions, someone else to bubble the group… the list goes on and on.
i can understand building a toon around a team build in structured team PvP. but in PvE? i am confused. is PvE faceroll easy? then why does everyone still want a babysitter? oh yeah, so they can focus solely on DPS, and not worry about CC or healing themselves or dodging well telegraphed attacks…
– The Baconnaire
“Raine.1394
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.”
Who is delusional now? I’ve played WoW or should I say stood around and waited in WoW for countless hours for either a tank or more often a healer, not to mention the flat out extortion by tanks to actually run a dungeon with you. You are flat out BS’ing pal and Anet’s marketing team didn’t dream this issue up, anyone could go to their boards or any WoW fan forum and see the countless threads screaming about the bloody problem why do you think Blizz came up with those tools in the first place if this wasn’t an issue…boredom?
While I’m at it, the trinity was a developer tool used to make their job much easier in fact the whole concept is designed around the fact that defined roles and abilities would result in far fewer contingencies to plan for then non trinity combat. The trinity is a mindless system for the less comfortable or skilled players and that’s the truth of the matter. Don’t get me wrong zerg combat is as mindless but the fact is there is excellent opportunity to create far more complex strategic encounters with far more options to players to beat said content and certainly more thought needed than any trinity based dribble created.
Vini, Vidi, Vici, Viridis…I came, I saw, I conquered…I got a green??
“Raine.1394
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.”Who is delusional now? I’ve played WoW or should I say stood around and waited in WoW for countless hours for either a tank or more often a healer, not to mention the flat out extortion by tanks to actually run a dungeon with you. You are flat out BS’ing pal and Anet’s marketing team didn’t dream this issue up, anyone could go to their boards or any WoW fan forum and see the countless threads screaming about the bloody problem why do you think Blizz came up with those tools in the first place if this wasn’t an issue…boredom?
Raine is choosing to ignore that when ANet made the no trinity design decision, there was no LFG tool in WoW. I met my WoW guild because I was on my Priest and took pity on someone who had been asking for a healer for a dungeon for over an hour. There certainly is such a tool now, but ANet did not invent the problem.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
You didn’t really just say that Anet made up the “LF1 Healer for [Dungeon X],” did you? Seriously? I played WoW for years, and I can tell you it DID happen. Quite frequently in fact. And this didn’t just happen in the high end dungeons either. The 5-man instances in the lower levels had the same issue. In fact, even with the LFG tool, I remember having to wait over an hour to get in.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
How is a trinity any less braindead than a zerg?
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
The simpler GW2 boss fights can allow for the berserker style of fighting, no one is denying that, however it’s certainly not limiting in that regards and anything else works as well. You can take any mix of characters, any mix of armor types and succeed. The difference between this and actual trinityesque scripted combat is that with the scripted trinity type you’re not only forced into a set number of tanks and healers (with the rest dps) but you’re also forced into a single add on driven dance in which you must follow the steps or fail. To make matters worse, you can’t deviate at all as a player… a tank must tank and only tank, a healer must heal the tank and ignore everything else around him, dps can only stand there and cycle their dps rotations. It is far, far more limiting in what you can do than in a trinity-free system.
Yeah, don’t forget that GW2 combat is totally scripted. How did I figure that out? Well, I read a ‘how to kill X’ thread so that I would know how to kill X and not mess everything up. I found if you follow the script in GW2 you will be successful. If you don’t you will fail. Kinda boring, eh?
This may come as a surprise, but there’s a difference between learning the dynamics of the fight and following a strict script. In WoW, for one, there’s an add on (I forget the name) that basically yells at you what’s about to happen next, where to go, what to do, etc. For those fights, you’re told step by step what to do next. With the wurm it’s much broader… say for example 20 people need to do this to get the wurm invulnerable while some groups take out eggs and spawns then when vulnerable burn the wurm… the difference is in GW2 we learn what to do but in WoW you’re told how to do it.
I do the same research of an encounter in GW2 as I do in WoW—in exactly the same way and for the same information. You are drawing a distinction that doesn’t exist. A script is a script and GW2 combat is totally scripted.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
You didn’t really just say that Anet made up the “LF1 Healer for [Dungeon X],” did you? Seriously? I played WoW for years, and I can tell you it DID happen. Quite frequently in fact. And this didn’t just happen in the high end dungeons either. The 5-man instances in the lower levels had the same issue. In fact, even with the LFG tool, I remember having to wait over an hour to get in.
Yep, I really, seriously did.
“We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don’t like sitting around spamming “looking for healer” to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun."
Does that sound at all familiar? Have you read about any of the game distinctives from the game developer? This is a game distinctive, no holy trinity and no spamming “looking for healer”. Just like the “we don’t make grindy games” this was pure marketing speak. I have played WoW for years and waiting for groups is a non-issue, at least on my server and battle group.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
You didn’t really just say that Anet made up the “LF1 Healer for [Dungeon X],” did you? Seriously? I played WoW for years, and I can tell you it DID happen. Quite frequently in fact. And this didn’t just happen in the high end dungeons either. The 5-man instances in the lower levels had the same issue. In fact, even with the LFG tool, I remember having to wait over an hour to get in.
Yep, I really, seriously did.
“We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don’t like sitting around spamming “looking for healer” to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun."
Does that sound at all familiar? Have you read about any of the game distinctives from the game developer? This is a game distinctive, no holy trinity and no spamming “looking for healer”. Just like the “we don’t make grindy games” this was pure marketing speak. I have played WoW for years and waiting for groups is a non-issue, at least on my server and battle group.
Just because you didn’t have an issue with it doesn’t make it a non-issue. I know SEVERAL WoW players that had the issue of having to wait for a decent length of time to run a dungeon, simply because no healer and/or tank wasn’t available. And it wasn’t just an isolated case, either. GW2 didn’t make that up. It really did exist. Your claim that it was an urban legend is false.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
As opposed to: LFM zerker
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
As opposed to: LFM Wzerker, LFM Wzerker, LFM Wzerker? Oh, no. YOu don’t have to spend time looking for a zerker warrior in this game. Everybody has one.
Jokes apart, I don’t think the no trinity thing is a problem. The only problem is that pve content, as a general rule, is poorly designed. A trinity wouldn’t change that.
“Raine.1394
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.”Who is delusional now? I’ve played WoW or should I say stood around and waited in WoW for countless hours for either a tank or more often a healer, not to mention the flat out extortion by tanks to actually run a dungeon with you. You are flat out BS’ing pal and Anet’s marketing team didn’t dream this issue up, anyone could go to their boards or any WoW fan forum and see the countless threads screaming about the bloody problem why do you think Blizz came up with those tools in the first place if this wasn’t an issue…boredom?
Raine is choosing to ignore that when ANet made the no trinity design decision, there was no LFG tool in WoW. I met my WoW guild because I was on my Priest and took pity on someone who had been asking for a healer for a dungeon for over an hour. There certainly is such a tool now, but ANet did not invent the problem.
When they marketed GW2 and it’s distinctives, WoW had an LFG tool. I am not choosing to ignore anything.
“We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don’t like sitting around spamming “looking for healer” to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun. "
Sound familiar? When I originally read it and made a decision to preorder GW2, WoW had an LFG tool. And, I am accurately reporting the fact that I have never spammed chat for a healer or tank, I just use the tool. Do healers and tanks queue faster? Yep. And, there might be a significant wait, once in a blue moon, for a given instance. But, the problems marketed do not represent my experience under the trinity. There is no solution offered here as paradoxically it has been much much more difficult to put groups together in GW2 than it is in WoW.
“Raine.1394
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.”Who is delusional now? I’ve played WoW or should I say stood around and waited in WoW for countless hours for either a tank or more often a healer, not to mention the flat out extortion by tanks to actually run a dungeon with you. You are flat out BS’ing pal and Anet’s marketing team didn’t dream this issue up, anyone could go to their boards or any WoW fan forum and see the countless threads screaming about the bloody problem why do you think Blizz came up with those tools in the first place if this wasn’t an issue…boredom?
While I’m at it, the trinity was a developer tool used to make their job much easier in fact the whole concept is designed around the fact that defined roles and abilities would result in far fewer contingencies to plan for then non trinity combat. The trinity is a mindless system for the less comfortable or skilled players and that’s the truth of the matter. Don’t get me wrong zerg combat is as mindless but the fact is there is excellent opportunity to create far more complex strategic encounters with far more options to players to beat said content and certainly more thought needed than any trinity based dribble created.
No delusions dude. I’ve actually been reporting my average queue times on the monk I’m leveling. It’s currently ~3 minutes and I’m WW (DPS). What I haven’t been able to find is a problem created by the trinity of “preparing to have fun”. Not with a working LFG tool.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
You didn’t really just say that Anet made up the “LF1 Healer for [Dungeon X],” did you? Seriously? I played WoW for years, and I can tell you it DID happen. Quite frequently in fact. And this didn’t just happen in the high end dungeons either. The 5-man instances in the lower levels had the same issue. In fact, even with the LFG tool, I remember having to wait over an hour to get in.
Yep, I really, seriously did.
“We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don’t like sitting around spamming “looking for healer” to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun."
Does that sound at all familiar? Have you read about any of the game distinctives from the game developer? This is a game distinctive, no holy trinity and no spamming “looking for healer”. Just like the “we don’t make grindy games” this was pure marketing speak. I have played WoW for years and waiting for groups is a non-issue, at least on my server and battle group.
Just because you didn’t have an issue with it doesn’t make it a non-issue. I know SEVERAL WoW players that had the issue of having to wait for a decent length of time to run a dungeon, simply because no healer and/or tank wasn’t available. And it wasn’t just an isolated case, either. GW2 didn’t make that up. It really did exist. Your claim that it was an urban legend is false.
Oh noes, SEVERAL players have suffered wait times under the trinity. I stand corrected. There is no problem posed by the trinity that a proper LFG tool can’t fix. And, the interesting thing is that we do this naturally throughout life. In an operating room, surgery is not going to happen if you don’t have a surgeon present. You know, I could go on and on about how humans behave in groups and have elsewhere. Why is it all of a sudden a problem when you have necessary roles to fill in groups in games. If you are a human you are already very familiar with this actually working IRL.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
But at least a no trinity system doesn’t hold you back waiting for another player to be able to play the game. At least you’re still self-sufficient.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
Except you never played GW1. That was the game.
LFG tank. LFG healer.
You needed those – and I’m rather fond of the situation in which i can do well by myself.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
But at least a no trinity system doesn’t hold you back waiting for another player to be able to play the game. At least you’re still self-sufficient.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
Except you never played GW1. That was the game.
LFG tank. LFG healer.
You needed those – and I’m rather fond of the situation in which i can do well by myself.
Except they weren’t addressing GW1 when they said “We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played.” They were addressing WoW, essentially.
Doing well by yourself comes at a cost, sadly. It means there will be no rich interdependence and humans derive a lot of value from that. However, I’m glad you are liking the current conception of combat—not all are.
Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?
Vini, Vidi, Vici, Viridis…I came, I saw, I conquered…I got a green??
Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?
In my case I didn’t come to GW2 with a preference. I had played trinity games and was completely open to other conceptions of combat—and, I still am. I have no special love for the trinity itself and perhaps have the most problem with the conception of tank.
What I do believe is necessary is meaningful combat roles and we don’t have them. In thinking about what’s missing I’m not sure that set roles are necessary if say meaningful alternate builds were available that brought unique meaningful abilities to the table. I’m completely open, but have noticed that GW2 combat is not satisfying. Rather than giving up on a great game, I prefer to advocate for things that might work better.
Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?
In my case I didn’t come to GW2 with a preference. I had played trinity games and was completely open to other conceptions of combat—and, I still am. I have no special love for the trinity itself and perhaps have the most problem with the conception of tank.
What I do believe is necessary is meaningful combat roles and we don’t have them. In thinking about what’s missing I’m not sure that set roles are necessary if say meaningful alternate builds were available that brought unique meaningful abilities to the table. I’m completely open, but have noticed that GW2 combat is not satisfying. Rather than giving up on a great game, I prefer to advocate for things that might work better.
When combat becomes more open ppl have more chose in how they play even games with a trinity system if they are able to avoid attks by rolling out of the way it weakens the trinity system over all. So you can play GW2 like it has a trinity system but most ppl CHOSE not to. So its not for the lack of a trinity system that ppl play the way you do not want them to play its more on the ppl want to play that way. If you truly dislike playing that way then you do not have to but if others truly dislike playing with a trinity system you have no right to say they are wrong.
Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
But at least a no trinity system doesn’t hold you back waiting for another player to be able to play the game. At least you’re still self-sufficient.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
Except you never played GW1. That was the game.
LFG tank. LFG healer.
You needed those – and I’m rather fond of the situation in which i can do well by myself.
I stopped playing WoW ages ago. I’m playing TSW and FF14 at the moment however, and I’ve been tracking how long I’ve needed to wait as a DPS.
Average on TSW was about 30mins.
FF14 is about 20mins.
However, samples from 2 people really doesn’t form any conclusive evidence, and it also varies extremely between games.
For example, in TSW the difficulty scale wings very much unfavorably towards the tank’s side, and there’s some very interesting and creative ways to heal, so you get plenty of DPSs and healers, but very few tanks. So you can’t just use WoW as the all-games-are-like-this example.
Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?
In my case I didn’t come to GW2 with a preference. I had played trinity games and was completely open to other conceptions of combat—and, I still am. I have no special love for the trinity itself and perhaps have the most problem with the conception of tank.
What I do believe is necessary is meaningful combat roles and we don’t have them. In thinking about what’s missing I’m not sure that set roles are necessary if say meaningful alternate builds were available that brought unique meaningful abilities to the table. I’m completely open, but have noticed that GW2 combat is not satisfying. Rather than giving up on a great game, I prefer to advocate for things that might work better.
When combat becomes more open ppl have more chose in how they play even games with a trinity system if they are able to avoid attks by rolling out of the way it weakens the trinity system over all. So you can play GW2 like it has a trinity system but most ppl CHOSE not to. So its not for the lack of a trinity system that ppl play the way you do not want them to play its more on the ppl want to play that way. If you truly dislike playing that way then you do not have to but if others truly dislike playing with a trinity system you have no right to say they are wrong.
Game design is the larger determinant of how people play a game. It’s interesting, early on a meta wanted to emerge around an anchor guardian, mesmer, and warrior team composition. I say “wanted to” because it is innate in our humanity to establish roles when confronted with a group objective. But, players eventually figured out that DPS was the only thing that mattered after all.
I never have a problem with people’s preferences. I only take issue with irrational ideas like WoW is more scripted than GW2 because of the trinity. Or, that wait time is an issue with a LFG tool under the trinity. I think it’s fine to have a preference around the trinity and I honor that.
Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?
In my case I didn’t come to GW2 with a preference. I had played trinity games and was completely open to other conceptions of combat—and, I still am. I have no special love for the trinity itself and perhaps have the most problem with the conception of tank.
What I do believe is necessary is meaningful combat roles and we don’t have them. In thinking about what’s missing I’m not sure that set roles are necessary if say meaningful alternate builds were available that brought unique meaningful abilities to the table. I’m completely open, but have noticed that GW2 combat is not satisfying. Rather than giving up on a great game, I prefer to advocate for things that might work better.
When combat becomes more open ppl have more chose in how they play even games with a trinity system if they are able to avoid attks by rolling out of the way it weakens the trinity system over all. So you can play GW2 like it has a trinity system but most ppl CHOSE not to. So its not for the lack of a trinity system that ppl play the way you do not want them to play its more on the ppl want to play that way. If you truly dislike playing that way then you do not have to but if others truly dislike playing with a trinity system you have no right to say they are wrong.
Game design is the larger determinant of how people play a game. It’s interesting, early on a meta wanted to emerge around an anchor guardian, mesmer, and warrior team composition. I say “wanted to” because it is innate in our humanity to establish roles when confronted with a group objective. But, players eventually figured out that DPS was the only thing that mattered after all.
I never have a problem with people’s preferences. I only take issue with irrational ideas like WoW is more scripted than GW2 because of the trinity. Or, that wait time is an issue with a LFG tool under the trinity. I think it’s fine to have a preference around the trinity and I honor that.
So trinity is more of an artifact of lower end computing power and lower end web power it makes an illusion of combat that is not turn base but in truth it is turn base. Games like WoW are very scripted as in there only one way to play it and in truth there no way for WoW to brake out of that beyond giving every class every thing at once. The ability to avoid dmg by rolling adds a lot more to the level of chose of how you play in a game at the same time having environment weapons such as having triggers falling rock kill mobs at the same time etc.. take away from the idea of a trinity system too. That kind of the point to have mmorpg evolve into new higher end system and web power so far mmorpg have lagged way behind such stander as FPS or moba (how every you spell it) or rts etc… Its this hold out to the old that is keeping mmorpg back badly.
Side note to honor something you believe in is more of an ego boots its not realty something you do to make a point.
Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA