What would GW2 be like with trinity?
The simplest way to think of it is this… if GW2 had the trinity then fights like the Marionette wouldn’t exist. Trinity combat all breaks down to the same script – tank taunts, healer focuses on the tank, every now and then throw a twist at the dps so they don’t fall asleep. Without the trinity we can have fights like this where we divide into five groups which further get divided into five groups which all have to work together successfully in order to favorably progress the fight. There’s a randomness that defies a set script so you need to be on your toes and pay attention.
That couldn’t be farther from the truth.
In fact I think that the devs of GW2 are quite limited in the amount of mechanics that they can introduce to fights because of all the chaos that their PvE group combat engenders. You can’t really reproduce the unique encounter mechanics that games like WoW or FFXIV have and that makes every boss feel unique and different if the fights are random and uncontrollable.
I play a tank in another MMO and I’m doing far more than just sitting in front of a boss and trading blows like an idiot, and I hate to say this but the fights have WAY more interesting mechanics than most of GW2’s PvE encounters. If a MMO has tanks sit in front of bosses and healers spam heals in the back all the time, it’s a problem with that MMO’s developers or game engine, not with the trinity. The trinity can do every fight a DPS-only design can do, and it usually does it better too because it allows people with more defensive-oriented playstyles to play their way and feel useful.
GW2 desperately needs a new PvE model. It doesn’t have to be the trinity (and it probably wouldn’t be) but things need to change. DPS/Control/Support anyone?
We seriously need a CDI on dungeons, fractals and instanced PvE…
Agreed. I actually don’t believe he has played a trinity game. His post is an extended non-sequitur.
The years I spend in WoW raiding as both tank and dps would tend to disagree with you a bit. Seriously, how would a fight like the Marionette fight work in a trinity based system? You’d have to change it dramatically. You’d be forced to somehow make sure a tank and healer were available for and put on every platform, or you’d have to get rid of the platforms and have the entire lane fight a single boss. You could not have a fight like the Marionette. Since you’ve been kind enough to accuse me of drifting into the warm and fuzzy realm of non-sequitur why don’t you extend that kindness and tell us all how you could design the Marionette fight, as much as it is as possible, with a trinity based combat system. Please, enlighten us.
I can give you a method for evaluating your claim. One of the things I like to do in any game I play is watch and study the videos (and other materials) of the top guilds and players. Pick any top raiding guild like Method in WoW and watch a few videos. Then for comparison pick a top guild in GW2 that’s doing videos and watch a few.
On the trinity side you’ll notice that the richness of the encounter does not grow out of presence or absence of the trinity—that would be the encounter design and fight mechanics, and they are rich and call for both strategy and flawless execution. If you are lucky enough to find one with commentary it will sound something like Norman Schwarzkopf describing the initiation of the gulf war.
What will you find on the GW2 side? Well, I noticed that a theme emerged early. In the videos you will learn where to stack so that you can hit the boss, but they can’t hit you. (I had to laugh when one guy described this as LoS. Well, yes, I suppose.) Then after the boss is burned down by the berserkers-only group just wailing on him, you next learn strategies to avoid aggro in getting to the next boss.
In other words I’m suggesting you get some actual experience of the two systems. If you would honestly do this you wouldn’t hold the position you currently do.
I posted my suggestion for fixing GW2’s flawed Trinity system.
Check this out. post here as well.In Guild Wars 2, the Trinity was supposed to be
Control/Support/DamageEach part working together to win the PvE encounter.
Problem was the Overpowered way Control skills work, as well as the limited usefulness of Support skills, developed Damage into becoming the ultimate role in the game.Well I have developed a solution to this. My goal is to make ALL THREE ROLES equally useful in the PvE encounters. So of course some changes would need to be made if this solution were to be used. I will try to explain them each.
snip
I like the general idea.
but “authority” is the current condition duration.
the toughness additional effect can be achieved by specific runes and consumables
(lemon grass, melandru etc)
boon duration is also in the game.
what IMO should be done is
1) – rework defiant and unshakable. instead of complete immunity it should be sort of DR. i.e. you used 1st condition* in x time is full duration, second condition* in x time is half duration etc, when condition falls under 1 sec it will be uneffective.
- conditions here are CC ones: immobilize, freeze, blind, fear etc, .
this X duration is determined by the amount of people around…
2) make all blocks and reflect utilities a derivation from toughness and never ever negate damage! maximum block or reflect will be to ~90% of the damage with maximum obtainable toughness.
if a guardian wants to put wall of reflection he better not use zerkers gear as he will block/reflect about 20% damage of what full toughness guardian will reflect.
3) reduce the speed of untraited endurance regeneration in combat. it should be ~30% slower without vigor. add grandmaster trait in one of the protection lines (health or toughness etc) that returns the combat endurance regeneration to similar to what we have now. so you will have to sacrifice damage to have better dodges.
4) add active “block” option: blocking player will remain in the same spot but will get no damage from front attacks for the duration of the block if using shield or block 2/3 of the damage if he blocks just with weapons. block depletes endurance pool at speed of 1/4 bar each second ( full bar == 4 seconds)
using traited block from grandmaster trait will reduce the endurance pool depletion by certain amount (i.e. full bar = 8 seconds of active blocking).
GW2 has a new and improved trinity: Damage, Control, Support. A far superior, more flexible and more complex system. A system that requires a lot more team coordination to really shine.
orly
Yes, really. […]
How anyone can see complexity in this system is beyond me, sorry.
I see more depth in my 2D TV if I wear 3D classes, than I see in the role system of GW2…Your sig seems to indicate you play a mesmer, and you can’t see the complexity in the system? That’s a little worrisome. Are you aware of what skills you have and not only what they do but when is a better time to use them? The various ways you can use focus 4 for a variety of effects? The value of chaos storm in damage, control and support simultaneously? Do you spam great sword 3 off cool down or are there more opportunistic times to use it? Any of that stuff? How about the variability with casting feedback (with or without a target), or how traits can enhance null field and feed back to have even greater effects, which can completely alter how/when you’d cast them?
No depth?
Because it doesn’t change the fact, that PvE is (and will be even after the zerker gear nerf) all about max damage melee might stacking.
And PvP is all about the meta.
There is only one role in PvE, DD. Support and Control? That’s just gimmicky stuff that most classes in games with a trinity have too.
There is the meta in PvP, you are in the meta, or you are out.
This game has no role variety, not even if you try hard to make one up…
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
GW2 has a new and improved trinity: Damage, Control, Support. A far superior, more flexible and more complex system. A system that requires a lot more team coordination to really shine.
orly
Yes, really. […]
How anyone can see complexity in this system is beyond me, sorry.
I see more depth in my 2D TV if I wear 3D classes, than I see in the role system of GW2…Your sig seems to indicate you play a mesmer, and you can’t see the complexity in the system? That’s a little worrisome. Are you aware of what skills you have and not only what they do but when is a better time to use them? The various ways you can use focus 4 for a variety of effects? The value of chaos storm in damage, control and support simultaneously? Do you spam great sword 3 off cool down or are there more opportunistic times to use it? Any of that stuff? How about the variability with casting feedback (with or without a target), or how traits can enhance null field and feed back to have even greater effects, which can completely alter how/when you’d cast them?
No depth?
Because it doesn’t change the fact, that PvE is (and will be even after the zerker gear nerf) all about max damage melee might stacking.
And PvP is all about the meta.There is only one role in PvE, DD. Support and Control? That’s just gimmicky stuff that most classes in games with a trinity have too.
There is the meta in PvP, you are in the meta, or you are out.This game has no role variety, not even if you try hard to make one up…
I don’t remember whether I properly thanked you for your Mesmer guide, but I used it while leveling my Mesmer, and I have never been so thoroughly entertained while being guided.
Yeah, I’m not writing in support of the trinity, though it may appear so. I began doing a lot of thinking when I noticed how hollow combat felt in GW2 compared to the trinity games. I came to the conclusion, not that we were missing the trinity, but rather meaningful combat roles beyond DD. It’s sad but we don’t really have even DoT (that works) to provide other interesting trade-offs in combat.
The zerker nerf is interesting in that it supposedly addresses the zerker “problem” and will make no difference whatsoever in the meta. DPS is king and zerker will still provide the highest DPS. I suppose some might feel relatively less stigmatized for not wearing zerker in PvE.
I can give you a method for evaluating your claim. One of the things I like to do in any game I play is watch and study the videos (and other materials) of the top guilds and players. Pick any top raiding guild like Method in WoW and watch a few videos. Then for comparison pick a top guild in GW2 that’s doing videos and watch a few.
On the trinity side you’ll notice that the richness of the encounter does not grow out of presence or absence of the trinity—that would be the encounter design and fight mechanics, and they are rich and call for both strategy and flawless execution. If you are lucky enough to find one with commentary it will sound something like Norman Schwarzkopf describing the initiation of the gulf war.
What will you find on the GW2 side? Well, I noticed that a theme emerged early. In the videos you will learn where to stack so that you can hit the boss, but they can’t hit you. (I had to laugh when one guy described this as LoS. Well, yes, I suppose.) Then after the boss is burned down by the berserkers-only group just wailing on him, you next learn strategies to avoid aggro in getting to the next boss.
In other words I’m suggesting you get some actual experience of the two systems. If you would honestly do this you wouldn’t hold the position you currently do.
There’s no strategy in a WoW style raid. There’s a script. You follow the script, you win. You don’t, you wipe. It’s really that simple. You’re given an assignment and that’s all you do. No thinking on the fly, no contingencies, just follow the script to win. The challenge isn’t built around the players skills, it’s built around the players gear and their ability to follow a script, period.
The non-trinity style, however, where every profession is viable allows you to take any mix of characters, so each fight has it’s own nuances and differences. You’re only thinking of the ‘4 warriors and a mesmer’ scenario, but the reality is that any group of characters can successfully do the fights and with each mix there’s variability you can’t find in a scripted trinity fight.
#TeamJadeQuarry
there is no difference, all we have now is “need guardian, need guardian, only X build accepted”
Your sig seems to indicate you play a mesmer, and you can’t see the complexity in the system? That’s a little worrisome. Are you aware of what skills you have and not only what they do but when is a better time to use them? The various ways you can use focus 4 for a variety of effects? The value of chaos storm in damage, control and support simultaneously? Do you spam great sword 3 off cool down or are there more opportunistic times to use it? Any of that stuff? How about the variability with casting feedback (with or without a target), or how traits can enhance null field and feed back to have even greater effects, which can completely alter how/when you’d cast them?
No depth?
Because it doesn’t change the fact, that PvE is (and will be even after the zerker gear nerf) all about max damage melee might stacking.
And PvP is all about the meta.There is only one role in PvE, DD. Support and Control? That’s just gimmicky stuff that most classes in games with a trinity have too.
There is the meta in PvP, you are in the meta, or you are out.This game has no role variety, not even if you try hard to make one up…
Nice sidestep to avoid answering the question. Spend a little time in WvW where you have to go against intelligent opponents and you’ll realize how painfully wrong you are. Support and control are far from gimmicky when you can prevent a whole blast of damage from ever hitting your allies due to a well timed null field that blinds and cripples them right before they strike for example because you were aware enough to drop it at the right time and place based on what you see happening in the fight.
I guess you can say there’s no ‘role variety’ as you put it, but the problem is you’re still trying to think in the ‘one character one role’ mindset. As long as you do that you’ll never fully be able to see the depth that’s in the system.
#TeamJadeQuarry
The problem in GW2 is that the bosses are as dumb as the trash.
They only have very basic mechanics which feel way more scripted than in other games.
Boss has no taunt or aggro mechanic which makes him act random.
Boss has no targeting priorities, which makes the fights chaotic.
Boss has spells you have to dodge whatever role you play.
Learn the script of the boss skills, dodge, profit.
That’s the core. Honestly. For me, that is shallow as kitten…
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The problem in GW2 is that the bosses are as dumb as the trash.
They only have very basic mechanics which feel way more scripted than in other games.Boss has no taunt or aggro mechanic which makes him act random.
Boss has no targeting priorities, which makes the fights chaotic.
Boss has spells you have to dodge whatever role you play.Learn the script of the boss skills, dodge, profit.
That’s the core. Honestly. For me, that is shallow as kitten…
In one post you call the fights both chaotic and scripted.
Contradictions are fun.
#TeamJadeQuarry
As has been said many times, the problem with GW2 is not it’s lack of trinity (it’s got its own), but it’s lacking encounter AI and mechanics. Anet are trying to remedy this, but they still have a way to go and unless they seriously revamp existing encounters, instead of creating new ones, people will still have an issue with it and blame it on the combat system
It seems such a shame and a waste to have created such a good combat system, only for them to not utilize it properly with better encounter systems.
The problem in GW2 is that the bosses are as dumb as the trash.
They only have very basic mechanics which feel way more scripted than in other games.Boss has no taunt or aggro mechanic which makes him act random.
Boss has no targeting priorities, which makes the fights chaotic.
Boss has spells you have to dodge whatever role you play.Learn the script of the boss skills, dodge, profit.
That’s the core. Honestly. For me, that is shallow as kitten…
In one post you call the fights both chaotic and scripted.
Contradictions are fun.
The skills feel scripted, the fight feels chaotic, because there is no way to control it.
If you know the skills and when to dodge, it doesn’t matter that the encounter is chaotic by nature, you will succeed.
As long as you might stack melee the kitten out of the boss.
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
….
(Healer found, tank got impatient and left…)
LFM tank
LFM tank
LFM tank
I can give you a method for evaluating your claim. One of the things I like to do in any game I play is watch and study the videos (and other materials) of the top guilds and players. Pick any top raiding guild like Method in WoW and watch a few videos. Then for comparison pick a top guild in GW2 that’s doing videos and watch a few.
On the trinity side you’ll notice that the richness of the encounter does not grow out of presence or absence of the trinity—that would be the encounter design and fight mechanics, and they are rich and call for both strategy and flawless execution. If you are lucky enough to find one with commentary it will sound something like Norman Schwarzkopf describing the initiation of the gulf war.
What will you find on the GW2 side? Well, I noticed that a theme emerged early. In the videos you will learn where to stack so that you can hit the boss, but they can’t hit you. (I had to laugh when one guy described this as LoS. Well, yes, I suppose.) Then after the boss is burned down by the berserkers-only group just wailing on him, you next learn strategies to avoid aggro in getting to the next boss.
In other words I’m suggesting you get some actual experience of the two systems. If you would honestly do this you wouldn’t hold the position you currently do.
There’s no strategy in a WoW style raid. There’s a script. You follow the script, you win. You don’t, you wipe. It’s really that simple. You’re given an assignment and that’s all you do. No thinking on the fly, no contingencies, just follow the script to win. The challenge isn’t built around the players skills, it’s built around the players gear and their ability to follow a script, period.
The non-trinity style, however, where every profession is viable allows you to take any mix of characters, so each fight has it’s own nuances and differences. You’re only thinking of the ‘4 warriors and a mesmer’ scenario, but the reality is that any group of characters can successfully do the fights and with each mix there’s variability you can’t find in a scripted trinity fight.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
….(Healer found, tank got impatient and left…)
LFM tank
LFM tank
LFM tank
I’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
….(Healer found, tank got impatient and left…)
LFM tank
LFM tank
LFM tankI’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
Yeah with the LFG tool sure.
Wait till you start pugging raids, or raiding in general… enjoy the BS there. There’s LOADS of it. (And I mean, even if you get into a guild and get a constant raid spot, think about your position in the guild in relation to guild leader/raiders and those that are not… there’s loads of social (and drama) bullkitten aside from just class roles).
3 minute queues… that’s cute. It’s instant for a tank and/or healer. Wait till you hit max lvl… lol…
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
….(Healer found, tank got impatient and left…)
LFM tank
LFM tank
LFM tankI’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
Yeah with the LFG tool sure.
Wait till you start pugging raids, or raiding in general… enjoy the BS there. There’s LOADS of it. (And I mean, even if you get into a guild and get a constant raid spot, think about your position in the guild in relation to guild leader/raiders and those that are not… there’s loads of social (and drama) bullkitten aside from just class roles).3 minute queues… that’s cute. It’s instant for a tank and/or healer. Wait till you hit max lvl… lol…
Yeah, it’s cheating with a functional LFG tool, right? The only raids I pug for are LFR raids at max level and that’s pretty much the experience I just described. I have 6 max level characters in WoW and 15 in GW2. When you are max level and doing flex or normal raids it’s by far preferable to do them with a guild. Bottom line, the trinity doesn’t add anything problematic to the player experience. It’s a myth that’s accepted and promulgated by inexperienced players.
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
….(Healer found, tank got impatient and left…)
LFM tank
LFM tank
LFM tankI’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
Yeah with the LFG tool sure.
Wait till you start pugging raids, or raiding in general… enjoy the BS there. There’s LOADS of it. (And I mean, even if you get into a guild and get a constant raid spot, think about your position in the guild in relation to guild leader/raiders and those that are not… there’s loads of social (and drama) bullkitten aside from just class roles).3 minute queues… that’s cute. It’s instant for a tank and/or healer. Wait till you hit max lvl… lol…
Yeah, it’s cheating with a functional LFG tool, right? The only raids I pug for are LFR raids at max level and that’s pretty much the experience I just described. I have 6 max level characters in WoW and 15 in GW2. When you are max level and doing flex or normal raids it’s by far preferable to do them with a guild. Bottom line, the trinity doesn’t add anything problematic to the player experience. It’s a myth that’s accepted and promulgated by inexperienced players.
Don’t know… know last time I queued for LFR on my rogue (a week ago) the wait was 25minutes – 30 minutes… but LFR is LFR (looking for kittens), hardest part is having the nerve to sit through it…. Anyways…
I would argue that the trinity is one of the core problems with WoW… You said to do flex or normal raids you need a guild. How do you get a spot in a raid group? Usually how many DPS are there in a guild vs tanks/healers? What happens when on a raid night the healer or tank doesn’t show up? How fast can you get a replacement tank/healer compared to a DPS?
Even in an LFR or a dungeon, what happens when a tank (or both tanks) leave, can the group keep going? Assuming it’s a dungeon, if one dps leaves, can the group go on rather smoothly without them?
I don’t think you realize how there’s a heavy reliance on tanks and healers (1-2 people in case of a tank) vs importance/reliance on DPS.
(edited by Zero Day.2594)
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
….(Healer found, tank got impatient and left…)
LFM tank
LFM tank
LFM tankI’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
Yeah with the LFG tool sure.
Wait till you start pugging raids, or raiding in general… enjoy the BS there. There’s LOADS of it. (And I mean, even if you get into a guild and get a constant raid spot, think about your position in the guild in relation to guild leader/raiders and those that are not… there’s loads of social (and drama) bullkitten aside from just class roles).3 minute queues… that’s cute. It’s instant for a tank and/or healer. Wait till you hit max lvl… lol…
Yeah, it’s cheating with a functional LFG tool, right? The only raids I pug for are LFR raids at max level and that’s pretty much the experience I just described. I have 6 max level characters in WoW and 15 in GW2. When you are max level and doing flex or normal raids it’s by far preferable to do them with a guild. Bottom line, the trinity doesn’t add anything problematic to the player experience. It’s a myth that’s accepted and promulgated by inexperienced players.
Don’t know… know last time I queued for LFR on my rogue (a week ago) the wait was 25minutes – 30 minutes… but LFR is LFR (looking for kittens), hardest part is having the nerve to sit through it…. Anyways…
I would argue that the trinity is one of the core problems with WoW… You said to do flex or normal raids you need a guild. How do you get a spot in a raid group? Usually how many DPS are there in a guild vs tanks/healers? What happens when on a raid night the healer or tank doesn’t show up? How fast can you get a replacement tank/healer compared to a DPS?
Even in an LFR or a dungeon, what happens when a tank (or both tanks) leave, can the group keep going? Assuming it’s a dungeon, if one dps leaves, can the group go on rather smoothly without them?
No, I didn’t say you needed a guild for flex, normal, heroic, I said it was preferable. Why would you want to pug this content? Honestly, I can’t remember the last time a tank left an instance. It has happened but it’s not anything that shapes the experience. And, if a tank or healer leaves they are, as you say, replaced immediately. If a dps leaves, of course they are replaced immediately. It’s a non-issue.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
#TeamJadeQuarry
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
#TeamJadeQuarry
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
….(Healer found, tank got impatient and left…)
LFM tank
LFM tank
LFM tankI’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
Yeah with the LFG tool sure.
Wait till you start pugging raids, or raiding in general… enjoy the BS there. There’s LOADS of it. (And I mean, even if you get into a guild and get a constant raid spot, think about your position in the guild in relation to guild leader/raiders and those that are not… there’s loads of social (and drama) bullkitten aside from just class roles).3 minute queues… that’s cute. It’s instant for a tank and/or healer. Wait till you hit max lvl… lol…
Yeah, it’s cheating with a functional LFG tool, right? The only raids I pug for are LFR raids at max level and that’s pretty much the experience I just described. I have 6 max level characters in WoW and 15 in GW2. When you are max level and doing flex or normal raids it’s by far preferable to do them with a guild. Bottom line, the trinity doesn’t add anything problematic to the player experience. It’s a myth that’s accepted and promulgated by inexperienced players.
Don’t know… know last time I queued for LFR on my rogue (a week ago) the wait was 25minutes – 30 minutes… but LFR is LFR (looking for kittens), hardest part is having the nerve to sit through it…. Anyways…
I would argue that the trinity is one of the core problems with WoW… You said to do flex or normal raids you need a guild. How do you get a spot in a raid group? Usually how many DPS are there in a guild vs tanks/healers? What happens when on a raid night the healer or tank doesn’t show up? How fast can you get a replacement tank/healer compared to a DPS?
Even in an LFR or a dungeon, what happens when a tank (or both tanks) leave, can the group keep going? Assuming it’s a dungeon, if one dps leaves, can the group go on rather smoothly without them?No, I didn’t say you needed a guild for flex, normal, heroic, I said it was preferable. Why would you want to pug this content? Honestly, I can’t remember the last time a tank left an instance. It has happened but it’s not anything that shapes the experience. And, if a tank or healer leaves they are, as you say, replaced immediately. If a dps leaves, of course they are replaced immediately. It’s a non-issue.
Fair enough, preferably do flex/normal/heroics with guild… But what’s one of the issues with pugging? (Aside from kittens joining)… could it be finding tanks and healers is time consuming?
Define immediately….
My immediately means roughly 0-20 seconds…
Maybe for a healer it’s close to immediately for a tank it’s usually not immediately…
At least by my standards…
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
Someone who says that GW2 boss fights in dungeons are something else than boring has never had cool boss fights in a RPG it seems.
kitten , if we are talking about the other game I’ve stopped playing over half a decade ago, look back at AQ40. When it was still new and shiny. Battleguard Sartura, Ouro, C’thun.
Just great trinity fights. Very little tank&spank. Very much movement. And still some control over the bosses.
I am fairly sure, that the raids must have improved over the years. The trinity is not bad, as long as the system it gets placed in is fresh and exciting.
What is bad though is, if every class feels more or less the same, as if you want to be efficient and therefore wanted in an instance, you are pigeonholed into one type of gameplay…
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
Sorry… I have to chime in on this one. If WoW is going to be our basis for what good team combat is supposed to be, then we’re in trouble. The combats were scripted. It was more of a coreographed dance that a grade school child could perform.
Tanks:
Step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block…
Healers:
Queue wand… watch bars… heal… watch bars… heal… watch bars… step… heal
DPS:
Pew pew… step… Pew pew… step… Pew Pew… step.
Honestly, I have no desire to go back to that playstyle. I really don’t.
I can still remember the DPS meters deciding whether or not you were “good enough” to run a dungeon. Ugh.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
LFM healer
LFM healer
LFM healer…..
….(Healer found, tank got impatient and left…)
LFM tank
LFM tank
LFM tankI’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
I love WoW’s dungeon finder. I don’t have to sit in town spamming. I can just queue up and go play while it finds a party for me.
Valar Morghulis
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
“That actually knew how to play”. This may come as a surprise, but I “actually knew how to play”. As I said, it was all the same thing, raid after raid. Top guilds get the script from Blizzard, perfect the fights, create videos on how to do the fights (follow the script) then everyone watches the videos to learn the script. It’s not strategy, it’s copy-catting, and that is one of the greatest poxes on MMO boss fights out there. Fighting by script due to the limitations of the trinity based system forcing requirements of n healers, n tanks and n dps producing an average of n damage over time to beat the enrage timers (when applicable).
Go into a fight without anyone in the guild watching the videos before hand. Go ahead, give it a go. Disable the add ons that tell you what’s about to happen and instead learn from scratch. Actually develop a strategy from scratch based on observation and experience. I think it’s been years and years since anyone in WoW actually did that.
#TeamJadeQuarry
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
There are optimal ways to complete GW2 encounters as well. However, unlike other games, these encounters can be completed without using the optimal tactics. — it just won’t be as quick. That said, the short range of group buffs and defenses and the one dimensional “spank sans tank” of many encounters does promote using the same tactics, with minor variations, across many encounters.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
Sorry… I have to chime in on this one. If WoW is going to be our basis for what good team combat is supposed to be, then we’re in trouble. The combats were scripted. It was more of a coreographed dance that a grade school child could perform.
Tanks:
Step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block…Healers:
Queue wand… watch bars… heal… watch bars… heal… watch bars… step… healDPS:
Pew pew… step… Pew pew… step… Pew Pew… step.Honestly, I have no desire to go back to that playstyle. I really don’t.
I can still remember the DPS meters deciding whether or not you were “good enough” to run a dungeon. Ugh.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
Sorry… I have to chime in on this one. If WoW is going to be our basis for what good team combat is supposed to be, then we’re in trouble. The combats were scripted. It was more of a coreographed dance that a grade school child could perform.
Tanks:
Step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block…Healers:
Queue wand… watch bars… heal… watch bars… heal… watch bars… step… healDPS:
Pew pew… step… Pew pew… step… Pew Pew… step.Honestly, I have no desire to go back to that playstyle. I really don’t.
I can still remember the DPS meters deciding whether or not you were “good enough” to run a dungeon. Ugh.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
Did I say one thing about GW2 combat? I was merely saying that WoW combat was no better. And since it uses the trinity as the overwhelming basis for it, the trinity is no better.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
Sorry… I have to chime in on this one. If WoW is going to be our basis for what good team combat is supposed to be, then we’re in trouble. The combats were scripted. It was more of a coreographed dance that a grade school child could perform.
Tanks:
Step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block… step here… taunt… block…Healers:
Queue wand… watch bars… heal… watch bars… heal… watch bars… step… healDPS:
Pew pew… step… Pew pew… step… Pew Pew… step.Honestly, I have no desire to go back to that playstyle. I really don’t.
I can still remember the DPS meters deciding whether or not you were “good enough” to run a dungeon. Ugh.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
Did I say one thing about GW2 combat? I was merely saying that WoW combat was no better. And since it uses the trinity as the overwhelming basis for it, the trinity is no better.
Yes, you were saying things about WoW combat that didn’t even consider how it compared to GW2. GW2 combat is absolutely brain dead compared to WoW combat. The trinity is part of that, but not the deciding factor.
Actually, I’ll say this about GW2 combat. The trinity would make it no better than it currently is. If you really and truly want combat in GW2, you will have to make the combat realistic.
As others have said, it makes no sense for a monster to attack someone in heavy armor doing next to no damage, taunting the monster with “nanny nanny boo boo” while others are behind it pelting it with arrows, magic, etc. In fact, it’s kitten silly.
I personally want to see the monster/bad guy/whatever focusing on the person/people doing to the most harm to it… at all times. You want to be DPS? Have at it, but you’d better be able to dodge too. Enemies should be moving constantly to gain the better position. They need to be able to anticipate what the player is doing. They need intelligence.
Good luck coding that.
To be honest, I think the only way meaningful combat would actually happen is if PvPers were allowed to play the monsters. Turn their chat off and let them be the bad guys. You want strategic and realistic combat. THAT would be the way it would happen.
(ANd no.. I’m not a PvPer)
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter it is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
(edited by Raine.1394)
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
#TeamJadeQuarry
“LF1M Tank and or healer CoF”
“Let’s just wait 10 more minutes guys and we’ll go WvW if no tanks or healers show up”
What if they added a trinity, but they didn’t change the PvE content. You could still do whatever you wanted in PvE with whatever classes, but it would make WvW combat much much better. Not near as much running.
GW2: A-E-I-O-U and sometimes Yzoug.
DaoC: R11 Skald
DaoC: R11 Skald
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
“LF1M Tank and or healer CoF”
“Let’s just wait 10 more minutes guys and we’ll go WvW if no tanks or healers show up”
I’m actually playing WoW as we speak. I queue for dungeons as they become available. I have never once spammed chat for a healer or a tank. There is an LFG tool that does all the work of assembling a team. And, the wait is averaging 3 minutes currently. Compare that to what it takes to put together a team in GW2, especially for an open world encounter. WoW simply works.
But you don’t need to put together a team in GW2 unless you are looking to do a speed run.
spit
Sorry, bad taste in my mouth. Any group can methodically do a dungeon in GW2. It’s only those that want to do it as quickly as possible with zero deaths so they can go do it again 4 more times this evening cares about party construction.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
But you don’t need to put together a team in GW2 unless you are looking to do a speed run.
spit
Sorry, bad taste in my mouth. Any group can methodically do a dungeon in GW2. It’s only those that want to do it as quickly as possible with zero deaths so they can go do it again 4 more times this evening cares about party construction.
Yeah, we were basically talking instances. But, I did broaden it to include the open world encounter in GW2 which is all about overflow dancing. What a painful way to design encounters as it makes players responsible for working a workaround rather than providing content that just works. WoW and their LFG tool definitely wins all around. BTW, doesn’t matter if you spit or not. Monkeys do that. A rational argument is all that is required.
(edited by Raine.1394)
But you don’t need to put together a team in GW2 unless you are looking to do a speed run.
spit
Sorry, bad taste in my mouth. Any group can methodically do a dungeon in GW2. It’s only those that want to do it as quickly as possible with zero deaths so they can go do it again 4 more times this evening cares about party construction.
Yeah, we were basically talking instances. But, I did broaden it to include the open world encounter in GW2 which is all about overflow dancing. What a painful way to design encounters as it makes players responsible for working a workaround rather than providing content that just works. WoW and their LFG tool definitely wins all around. BTW, doesn’t matter if you spit or not. Monkeys do that. A rational argument is all that is required.
You seemed to miss my not so subtle dislike for all things “speed” that have permeated MMOs. Understandable when it’s a subscription based game, don’t want to pay for longer than I have to but in a B2P or F2P? It’s an example of if all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail. It’s all “how do I level quickly” or getting BIS gear or which skill/trait combinations are the best for this profession/class. Basically the sole quest in every MMO has become finding the closest thing to an “easy” button or God Mode only to turn around and complain that the game is to easy.
You want hard, PUG. Use white gear. Use tactics beyond dog piling.
But no. You want routine familiarity. You want your little role in playing to be all mapped out. I’m the meat puppet, I’m the healer, I’m the damage dealer, I’m buffs/debuffs and do your niche’s equivalent of pressing one and occasionally 3. It’s like school kids in Japan. They want to assert their uniqueness by tweaking their school uniforms but then they go and tweak them the exact same way.
My dislike for the Trinity is because I got to this level playing my way, killing along the way and now that I’m on a team, I MUST do only one thing and that’s not dealing damage. That’s what I like about GW2. Everybody joins the fray.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
But you don’t need to put together a team in GW2 unless you are looking to do a speed run.
spit
Sorry, bad taste in my mouth. Any group can methodically do a dungeon in GW2. It’s only those that want to do it as quickly as possible with zero deaths so they can go do it again 4 more times this evening cares about party construction.
Yeah, we were basically talking instances. But, I did broaden it to include the open world encounter in GW2 which is all about overflow dancing. What a painful way to design encounters as it makes players responsible for working a workaround rather than providing content that just works. WoW and their LFG tool definitely wins all around. BTW, doesn’t matter if you spit or not. Monkeys do that. A rational argument is all that is required.
You seemed to miss my not so subtle dislike for all things “speed” that have permeated MMOs. Understandable when it’s a subscription based game, don’t want to pay for longer than I have to but in a B2P or F2P? It’s an example of if all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail. It’s all “how do I level quickly” or getting BIS gear or which skill/trait combinations are the best for this profession/class. Basically the sole quest in every MMO has become finding the closest thing to an “easy” button or God Mode only to turn around and complain that the game is to easy.
You want hard, PUG. Use white gear. Use tactics beyond dog piling.
But no. You want routine familiarity. You want your little role in playing to be all mapped out. I’m the meat puppet, I’m the healer, I’m the damage dealer, I’m buffs/debuffs and do your niche’s equivalent of pressing one and occasionally 3. It’s like school kids in Japan. They want to assert their uniqueness by tweaking their school uniforms but then they go and tweak them the exact same way.
My dislike for the Trinity is because I got to this level playing my way, killing along the way and now that I’m on a team, I MUST do only one thing and that’s not dealing damage. That’s what I like about GW2. Everybody joins the fray.
I want routine familiarity? Where on earth did you get that notion. You are setting up a strawman that I have no familiarity with….at all. What exactly are you saying about anything at all? I did notice that you spit like a monkey. What did i miss?
(edited by Raine.1394)
That’s what the traditional MMO Trinity system provides. I’m a healer, I heal. I’m a tank, I hold aggro. I’m a Paladin, I do damage. How is that not routine?
Therefore if you support that you must support the routine rolls assigned to your class while doing raids. Deviation is punished. There is no slack, no leeway in the system. It’s a totalitarian system that you must conform to simply to keep up with the others of your class. You are just a cog in a well oiled machine going through the motions that might give you a chance at a BIS item.
Also general you, as in those longing for a more traditional MMO Trinity system than what we have here. Those who want more info in the LFG system we have to exclude more players because they didn’t meet your ridged criteria. And since we don’t have that we get exclusion by achievement points or lack of a commander’s badge or insistence we reveal what armor stats we have equipped.
This is an MMO about inclusion and all I’ve ever seen as a result of the Trinity is exclusionary practices. But you all are still trying to fit this square peg of a game into your round hole of Trinity.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
I still vote nothing will change as the game is broken at the core and no one wants to bother fixing that.