Guild Wars 2

Well, if a lively playerbase is not enough metrics to define success, I’m curious to know what do you think would be

Mujen.5287:

Ever since Anet open up the forums it seems that it’s been split between to sides. People or adore the game and defend it and others who are appalled by it. I personally enjoy the game for what it is. Are there some major bugs absolutely, but are they game breaking? Not really. But some of the main issues that have been constantly brought up is dungeons and end-game. So my question is what do you want out of a dungeon or endgame experience? I’m not looking for answers like “more stuff,” healers, or anything that break from Anet’s manifesto. Please be specific, and courteous to the responses of others even if you disagree.

Clearly there are some of the issues with dungeons, especially when it comes to drop rates. My suggestion would be if a player does all 3 paths of a dungeon allow one exotic of that dungeon type to be given in the form of a chest. My friends and I miss that feeling, you could even say that rush to loot the final boss to see what he drops. Especially after running a tough instance. But to make it fair, make that chest only be available once a day for that dungeon. So your player still get that “epic loot” feeling without having to walk away with a heavy repair bill and 30 tokens to show for it.

I don’t really believe in the word “endgame.” For example, In Skyrim once you complete the main story, you pretty much continue playing the same thing you’ve been doing over and over again. So with no monthly fee why should I take this any differently? I would much rather have quality content over just spewing out fluff until an expansion is released.

I’ve always thought of it like this, If you make 7.25 an hour, and you purchase Gw2 for 60 all you really needed is about 8 1/2 hours of fun to be worth the money you spent.

Honestly, my idea of a good endgame is a combination of things, raiding for one for those who want it (I know we have world bosses, but actual fairly difficult instanced big bosses that take some skill other than mass zerging them,) a good PvP variety, and something we already have, explorable dungeons that people who to like to see different ways of doing the dungeon. I know some people may think I’m just basing it off WoW’s endgame, but there is a reason it’s so good, it’s because they know what their audience wants and they give it to them, not to mention they have had about 7 years to perfect it.

Also, on the raid thing I mentioned, they don’t have to give incredible loot, just decent cosmetic equipment that you can’t get anywhere else that makes you stand out, which is what this game is mainly about.

deriver.5381:

Well, if a lively playerbase is not enough metrics to define success, I’m curious to know what do you think would be

Continued developer support in the form of new content and items.

Well the short answer would be no it wasnt because of that. 5 mans arent considered end game content anyway for arguements sake, but even so trade chat used to be exploding with lf groups before the dungeon finder. Also any person that plays wow knows that u might be looking at 30 min max for a que unless you play at like 3am. This thread isnt really about wows lfr or lfds system anyway. Its about gw2s endgame content. which is all but null and void.

You apparently weren’t paying attention to general, among the many complaints about tanks (and healers) fishing for nearly complete dungeons to get their badges, speed runners kicking anyone who wanted to do optional bosses, and general rudeness with the whole kicking system, one of the chief complaints has always been queue times for dps.

The point is, they needed those systems because the bulk of their players don’t care to deal with the BS that comes with being in a raiding guild for the sake of progression. They needed those systems because without them, most people wouldn’t bother exploring their content. That’s the truth of the matter.

No, this thread is not about the lfd/lfr problems though, however it is also not about your perceived lack of end game content, by which I am assuming you mean fanatical dungeon and raid grinding for shiny gear. This thread is about what we the players would like to see as “end game content”. As you can tell by the initial responses the general consensus seems to be that we don’t need carrot based progression.

Meadows.1659:

The reason for the traditional “end game” is to keep players playing it. It all boils down to money. The companies that make these games need to make money to keep making games (or tending to their current games). Without anythign to strive for at the so called “end” of a game (which in all honesty should be refered to has the beginning of the game) the game slowly fizzles and dies. Thats why noone has even came close to competeing with wow as far as subscribers and overall gross income.

In standard business you normally copy business plans that are succesful, not completely contradict them.

GW2 has some nice concepts but they were poorly executed. Its like you beat the game the day you bought it in a sense. You claim that endgame is map completion but thats kinda a** backwards because im already 50% complete by the time I hit 80.

Without and “endgame” and without appealing to the mass consumer base this game is on a road to failure like most other mmos.

You gave an explanation on why “endgame” exsists but you never actually answered what content you want added to you games experience? You should read my original post for what this discussion is actually about. Thank you!

ituhata.6830:

Well the short answer would be no it wasnt because of that. 5 mans arent considered end game content anyway for arguements sake, but even so trade chat used to be exploding with lf groups before the dungeon finder. Also any person that plays wow knows that u might be looking at 30 min max for a que unless you play at like 3am. This thread isnt really about wows lfr or lfds system anyway. Its about gw2s endgame content. which is all but null and void.

You apparently weren’t paying attention to general, among the many complaints about tanks (and healers) fishing for nearly complete dungeons to get their badges, speed runners kicking anyone who wanted to do optional bosses, and general rudeness with the whole kicking system, one of the chief complaints has always been queue times for dps.

The point is, they needed those systems because the bulk of their players don’t care to deal with the BS that comes with being in a raiding guild for the sake of progression. They needed those systems because without them, most people wouldn’t bother exploring their content. That’s the truth of the matter.

No, this thread is not about the lfd/lfr problems though, however it is also not about your perceived lack of end game content, by which I am assuming you mean fanatical dungeon and raid grinding for shiny gear. This thread is about what we the players would like to see as “end game content”. As you can tell by the initial responses the general consensus seems to be that we don’t need carrot based progression.

Most people “wanted” to experience it. If they didnt want to bother with it, it never would have been implemented. People did want " end game". Thats why its there. The arguement was they didnt have time to raid not that they didnt want to bother with it.

There is no general consensus as of yet.

I love all the feedback that I’m seeing from this discussion but like most forum threads we are beginning to lose focus on what this is about. It’s about what do you see “endgame” as, what would you like to see implemented and why. Thank you in advance!

Just to reiterate:
Ever since Anet open up the forums it seems that it’s been split between to sides. People or adore the game and defend it and others who are appalled by it. I personally enjoy the game for what it is. Are there some major bugs absolutely, but are they game breaking? Not really. But some of the main issues that have been constantly brought up is dungeons and end-game. So my question is what do you want out of a dungeon or endgame experience? I’m not looking for answers like “more stuff,” healers, or anything that break from Anet’s manifesto. Please be specific, and courteous to the responses of others even if you disagree.

Clearly there are some of the issues with dungeons, especially when it comes to drop rates. My suggestion would be if a player does all 3 paths of a dungeon allow one exotic of that dungeon type to be given in the form of a chest. My friends and I miss that feeling, you could even say that rush to loot the final boss to see what he drops. Especially after running a tough instance. But to make it fair, make that chest only be available once a day for that dungeon. So your player still get that “epic loot” feeling without having to walk away with a heavy repair bill and 30 tokens to show for it.

I don’t really believe in the word “endgame.” For example, In Skyrim once you complete the main story, you pretty much continue playing the same thing you’ve been doing over and over again. So with no monthly fee why should I take this any differently? I would much rather have quality content over just spewing out fluff until an expansion is released.

I’ve always thought of it like this, If you make 7.25 an hour, and you purchase Gw2 for 60 all you really needed is about 8 1/2 hours of fun to be worth the money you spent.

Mujen.5287:

Meadows.1659:

The reason for the traditional “end game” is to keep players playing it. It all boils down to money. The companies that make these games need to make money to keep making games (or tending to their current games). Without anythign to strive for at the so called “end” of a game (which in all honesty should be refered to has the beginning of the game) the game slowly fizzles and dies. Thats why noone has even came close to competeing with wow as far as subscribers and overall gross income.

In standard business you normally copy business plans that are succesful, not completely contradict them.

GW2 has some nice concepts but they were poorly executed. Its like you beat the game the day you bought it in a sense. You claim that endgame is map completion but thats kinda a** backwards because im already 50% complete by the time I hit 80.

Without and “endgame” and without appealing to the mass consumer base this game is on a road to failure like most other mmos.

You gave an explanation on why “endgame” exsists but you never actually answered what content you want added to you games experience? You should read my original post for what this discussion is actually about. Thank you!

Yes i must apologize as the convo got slightly off subject.

I would like to see lvl 80 only dungeons. more than one lvl 80 only dragon world boss. I believe all of them should have been 80 anyway.

More spvp modes such as ctf, sieges all balanced of course unlike wvwvw’s 100 against a few’s- odds.

Something to strive after more than just one weapon model. The legendaries are nice and all but after a few months many people are going to have all the same ones.

Meadows.1659:

deriver.5381:

Well, if a lively playerbase is not enough metrics to define success, I’m curious to know what do you think would be

Continued developer support in the form of new content and items.

Well, then I’m happy to say that you just proved my point, and here is why: Guild Wars Beyond

Google for it, if you may, and after you discover what it is all about, bear in mind that it is just part of all the support the GW team is always dedicating to the game.

They never stopped supporting or adding new content to that game. And that, by your own definition, makes that game successful.

My end-game is already here, assuming they don’t cave in to the people crying and dumb it down, WvWvW.

I play MMORPG’s to play with friends, make NEW friends, explore the created world, and enjoy the various new content until the Zombie Apocalypse. All without a sub-fee. Guild Wars 2 is giving me this so I am happy.

24/7 accessible WvWvW that isn’t locked behind long queue’s.

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

24/7 accessible WvWvW that isn’t locked behind long queue’s.

I’d very much LOVE this… ^^

MrsAngelD.6971:

I want my endgame to be what Anet is going to give me, more stuff to explore. I have never been a fan of

“Oh let me run this instance over and over again so I can get gear to run this other instance over & over again”

I want to explore, craft a bit, hang out with friends and make my characters look good with things I find or work for around Tyria.

imho “Endgame” is a horrible concept which should have never been put into MMORPGS the whole point of these types of games is that there is no end because you’re always seeking the next adventure, making the next great discovery and exploring the world.

So my endgame will be exactly what Anet will do, which is adding more content for me to experience while hanging out with friends.

I really agree with that

I feel that the “endgame” is pretty half-assed to be honest. I mean, going through them one by one:

- Events for…uhhh…Exotics? The problem is that rewards are only relevant in the Lv80 zones. Yes, you CAN join your friends in the lower level zones, but apart from that…why on earth would you go there? To farm Copper? If we had several times more events and a more flexible chaining system, then maybe it would feel more interesting to do this for longer than an hour. But as it stands right now, it’s just a long, boring grind for something that you don’t actually need, nor have the capacity to really show off. Mind you, I’m not an anti-grind person – my first MMO was Runescape, and my second was Ragnarok Online. My problem is that the only reason for this particular grind is to prove to yourself that you can grind.

- Dungeons suffer from the exact same issues as Events, minus the lower-zones thing. You need to run Dungeons over and over and over again, long after they cease to be interesting, all for a reward that you can barely even show off. Dungeons do have slightly better longevity, on grounds that they’re more difficult than most Events, but right now it’s just a treadmill that doesn’t go anywhere.

- Jumping Puzzles…aren’t really endgame. Lets be honest here – as awesome as jumping puzzles are, they’re basically one-shot deals. Even if you spend time running around the world trying to find these things, going back and experiencing them for a second time just isn’t going to cut it. It’s like replaying a Phoenix Wright game; half the fun was solving the problem, so half the fun is lost if you already know the answers.

- Map completion is the same case as Jumping Puzzles. It’s great the first time through, and then you’ll never really want to do it again.

- Personal stories are a pretty severe time sink, and the one big issue I have with their replayability is that you spend more than half the time trying to get a brand new character back up to Lv80. The story arcs are incredibly disjointed due to their level requirements jumping up by 2 levels per step (until Lv70, when it only jumps by one level till Lv80) so even if you’re trying to go straight through the story, you end up spending more time just ploughing through hearts and events as fast as possible so you can do the next step. Yes, you can play these quests two, three, even four levels below their requirement, but that can only last so long before the game forces you to level again.

- WvWvW, and by extension sPvP, are decent sources of endgame simply on grounds that they’re both PvP. PvP in general can theoretically last forever on grounds of competition, so there’s no real reason to have carrots there. However, not everyone is a PvP person, and many people actively avoid PvP. So while this is a valid source of endgame, it’s incredibly short-sighted to say that everyone can get their endgame here.

The only, current, source of endgame that I can find is the Legendary Weapon grind, which is long and tedious but at least the reward is something that you can show off. After all, it’s kind-of hard to ignore rainbows raining down on your enemies.

I guess i sit somewhere in the middle as i do adore this game and think it was a fantastic game but on the otherhand i do not like the way anet is handling things by limiting/diminishing everything..

The game seems like it was made by someone other than those that are marring it up patch after patch, just one month later its not the same game i bought and has lost much by making players feel like the criminals while the botters and exploiters move on to new tricks..
Anet is in self destruct mode imho..

Aldracity.9463:

I feel that the “endgame” is pretty half-assed to be honest. I mean, going through them one by one:

- Events for…uhhh…Exotics? The problem is that rewards are only relevant in the Lv80 zones. Yes, you CAN join your friends in the lower level zones, but apart from that…why on earth would you go there? To farm Copper? If we had several times more events and a more flexible chaining system, then maybe it would feel more interesting to do this for longer than an hour. But as it stands right now, it’s just a long, boring grind for something that you don’t actually need, nor have the capacity to really show off. Mind you, I’m not an anti-grind person – my first MMO was Runescape, and my second was Ragnarok Online. My problem is that the only reason for this particular grind is to prove to yourself that you can grind.

- Dungeons suffer from the exact same issues as Events, minus the lower-zones thing. You need to run Dungeons over and over and over again, long after they cease to be interesting, all for a reward that you can barely even show off. Dungeons do have slightly better longevity, on grounds that they’re more difficult than most Events, but right now it’s just a treadmill that doesn’t go anywhere.

- Jumping Puzzles…aren’t really endgame. Lets be honest here – as awesome as jumping puzzles are, they’re basically one-shot deals. Even if you spend time running around the world trying to find these things, going back and experiencing them for a second time just isn’t going to cut it. It’s like replaying a Phoenix Wright game; half the fun was solving the problem, so half the fun is lost if you already know the answers.

- Map completion is the same case as Jumping Puzzles. It’s great the first time through, and then you’ll never really want to do it again.

- Personal stories are a pretty severe time sink, and the one big issue I have with their replayability is that you spend more than half the time trying to get a brand new character back up to Lv80. The story arcs are incredibly disjointed due to their level requirements jumping up by 2 levels per step (until Lv70, when it only jumps by one level till Lv80) so even if you’re trying to go straight through the story, you end up spending more time just ploughing through hearts and events as fast as possible so you can do the next step. Yes, you can play these quests two, three, even four levels below their requirement, but that can only last so long before the game forces you to level again.

- WvWvW, and by extension sPvP, are decent sources of endgame simply on grounds that they’re both PvP. PvP in general can theoretically last forever on grounds of competition, so there’s no real reason to have carrots there. However, not everyone is a PvP person, and many people actively avoid PvP. So while this is a valid source of endgame, it’s incredibly short-sighted to say that everyone can get their endgame here.

The only, current, source of endgame that I can find is the Legendary Weapon grind, which is long and tedious but at least the reward is something that you can show off. After all, it’s kind-of hard to ignore rainbows raining down on your enemies.

You may not have read my original post. I’m not looking for your opinions on what you think the game lacks, but instead what do you want? There are plenty threads that go over the topics you mentioned but that isn’t what i’m looking for.

What do you want added to the game to give you a better experience when your level 80? Although after reading you post this game just not be made for you, and that’s totally fine! Just please when you post on this thread read the main topic and I’d love to read what you have to say!

Mujen.5287:

You may not have read my original post. I’m not looking for your opinions on what you think the game lacks, but instead what do you want? There are plenty threads that go over the topics you mentioned but that isn’t what i’m looking for.

What do you want added to the game to give you a better experience when your level 80? Although after reading you post this game just not be made for you, and that’s totally fine! Just please when you post on this thread read the main topic and I’d love to read what you have to say!

And again, I really have no idea how to fix this, short of the work needed to basically build a brand new game. For example, in order for the world to really “change” between visits, Anet would need to at least double the number of dynamic events in the world AND offer more branching options between those events. However, the branching options alone would be the work of creating events, squared, just to account for world states possibly becoming broken or nonsensical (like a random invasion camp in the middle of nowhere).

In order to fix the endgame issue of Events and Dungeons, without just resorting to ye olde standby techniques, you’d still have to have an incentive to repeat this content, but without just resorting to either constant little rewards or carrots on the end of a stick. How would you do that? I have no bloody clue. And once again, I bring this back to the endgame being half-assed, as well as a side remark to Sequilitis: Super Castlevania 4. Anet overhauled the rewards themselves, without actually considering how much of an impact that would have on the reward-gaining process. On top of that, these are completely conflicting systems: one wants you to play forever, the other doesn’t care how long you play. This in turn creates a situation where you play forever to get a reward that does little more than show that you played a long time.

So after my rant, what is my answer? You got it: I have no idea. The only concepts of endgame that I’m accustomed to would fundamentally contradict the way GW2 was designed, so I have no idea how to create an endgame while still respecting the aspects of GW2 that make it GW2.

And don’t get me wrong here, I believe that this is the best $60 I’ve ever spent. Doing stuff the first time around is really fun. But short of contradicting the game’s fundamentals or a stroke of design genius, I don’t see how I’ll ever want to do all that stuff all over again.

Mujen.5287:

jebidiah ubershiet.2580:

More PVP modes.

Please be more specific. What would you like in these pvp modes? And how can they be made different than what they currently have. Anet stated that all pvp maps will have an underlying objective what would yours be?

Xeres.3724:

Every MMO I know of has 1 underlying theme: character progression (gear, talent points, skills, etc.).

I want the end game to continue that. I’m not that picky in terms of how that happens. It just has to be fun. I used to be able to go into instances 3 or 4 times a week to try and get gear. I really am past that now as the only way to get any of these things.

So ANet, I’m not sure what you have in mind with this but mix it up. A little crafting, a little PvP, a little PvE. Maybe a massive event that occurs once a month or something. Want to redefine end game? Don’t get into a rut.

You’re being a bit general. What do you want in your pve, pvp, and crafting that isn’t already in place. Would You enjoy more aspects of phasing during dynamic events?more challenges rewards in WvW? What would you like to craft legendary Armors? town clothing?

not really specifics. I like surprises but in gw1, pvp was more than my end game. It was my main game and the rpg was suplimentary to it. I’m enjoying gw2 very much. but i’m hoping to see the pvp get more robust.

guildwars 1 launched with random arenas, gvg, hoh tournament, team arenas and even some low level rpg only arenas.

Then each expansion added newmodes and changed up old ones. as well as giving us new skills and new ways to compete. I’m hoping that tradition continues with gw2

in gw1 the pvp content was pretty much equal to the pve content. In fact it could almost be said at launch that the rpg game was just a tutorial for pvp.

the ability to roll a pvp only character and jump right in to multiple types of group events was a major part of the appeal to the more casual gamer and the hard core competetive crowd as well. most of my alts were rooted in pvp only toons i loved to play enough to level them in rpg mode and get cool armor.

Aldracity.9463:

Mujen.5287:

You may not have read my original post. I’m not looking for your opinions on what you think the game lacks, but instead what do you want? There are plenty threads that go over the topics you mentioned but that isn’t what i’m looking for.

What do you want added to the game to give you a better experience when your level 80? Although after reading you post this game just not be made for you, and that’s totally fine! Just please when you post on this thread read the main topic and I’d love to read what you have to say!

kitten I forgot that part. The problem is that I don’t actually have anything specific in mind. GW2 content is either not designed to be repeatable (Puzzles, World, Story), or is repeatable for the sake of being repeatable (Events, Dungeons). The non-repeatable content doesn’t last very long, and the repeatable content builds towards nothing but a sense of self satisfaction…which ends up being contrived since the journey of this endgame is a bland circle. In particular, the repeatable content is completely identical to a gear treadmill structure…without the gear to actually treadmill for.

And again, I really have no idea how to fix this, short of the work needed to basically build a brand new game. For example, in order for the world to really “change” between visits, Anet would need to at least double the number of dynamic events in the world AND offer more branching options between those events. However, the branching options alone would be the work of creating events, squared, just to account for world states possibly becoming broken or nonsensical (like a random invasion camp in the middle of nowhere).

In order to fix the endgame issue of Events and Dungeons, without just resorting to ye olde standby techniques, you’d still have to have an incentive to repeat this content, but without just resorting to either constant little rewards or carrots on the end of a stick. How would you do that? I have no bloody clue. And once again, I bring this back to the endgame being half-assed, as well as a side remark to Sequilitis: Super Castlevania 4. Anet overhauled the rewards themselves, without actually considering how much of an impact that would have on the reward-gaining process. On top of that, these are completely conflicting systems: one wants you to play forever, the other doesn’t care how long you play. This in turn creates a situation where you play forever to get a reward that does little more than show that you played a long time.

So after my rant, what is my answer? You got it: I have no idea. The only concepts of endgame that I’m accustomed to would fundamentally contradict the way GW2 was designed, so I have no idea how to create an endgame while still respecting the aspects of GW2 that make it GW2.

And don’t get me wrong here, I believe that this is the best $60 I’ve ever spent. Doing stuff the first time around is really fun. But short of contradicting the game’s fundamentals or a stroke of design genius, I don’t see how I’ll ever want to do all that stuff all over again.

The main thing I took from your statement is that the game tends to repeat itself and correct me if i’m wrong but you want things to always feel fresh and rewarding as well. Rewarding I can understand but fresh, that’s quite hard to achieve. in order to that they would have to have team constantly pushing out more and more content on a weekly basis which is quite hard for a team of only 200+ people.

A lot of the things you see as flawed they are what I enjoy about the game to a certain extent. But out of curiosity i’m not looking for you to fix anything I want to know What do you want? And if the game doesn’t provide it for you why do you continue to play?

DAOC was the only MMO that really had a good endgame, IMHO. I don’t feel like typing up a lengthy elaboration, but I think anyone who played it knows what I mean… WoW and its gear-grinding clones don’t even come close.

There’s no “carrot on a stick” in this game.

Exotics are too easy to get. I hit 80 and I crafted a full 6 armor piece set within a weekend and bought green/yellow grade jewels.

sPvP having separate gear makes your gear on your main character irrelevant. Also, it takes 400++ hours of grinding to get the higher ranks.

WvW runs 24/7 which makes individual contribution seem pointless.

I had more fun while leveling. The events were fun. The story was good. There was a carrot on the stick to always level and get the next best gear.

So once I get the “look” I want and exotic jewels + weapons, what else is there to do?

Vzur.7123:

DAOC was the only MMO that really had a good endgame, IMHO. I don’t feel like typing up a lengthy elaboration, but I think anyone who played it knows what I mean… WoW and its gear-grinding clones don’t even come close.

Then I don’t believe your post has any valid grounds. And since I’ve never played DAOC I can’t say that I believe you.

ComeAndSee.1356:

There’s no “carrot on a stick” in this game.

Exotics are too easy to get. I hit 80 and I crafted a full 6 armor piece set within a weekend and bought green/yellow grade jewels.

sPvP having separate gear makes your gear on your main character irrelevant. Also, it takes 400++ hours of grinding to get the higher ranks.

WvW runs 24/7 which makes individual contribution seem pointless.

I had more fun while leveling. The events were fun. The story was good. There was a carrot on the stick to always level and get the next best gear.

So once I get the “look” I want and exotic jewels, what else is there to do?

It doesn’t seem like you took the time to read my original post. I didn’t ask on what your opinions are on what the game lacked. I’m asking what did you want added to the game or what do you see “endgame” as. There are plenty of other threads discussion dare i say bickering about what the game has or doesn’t. This thread is not one of them. Thank you in advance!

WvW PVP as endgame works pretty well for me.

PVE is scripted and finite. No matter how much PVE content you add, people will get through it all. That’s why I think PVP works so well…it’s not scripted and people can be very unpredictable.

Mujen.5287:

Vzur.7123:

DAOC was the only MMO that really had a good endgame, IMHO. I don’t feel like typing up a lengthy elaboration, but I think anyone who played it knows what I mean… WoW and its gear-grinding clones don’t even come close.

Then I don’t believe your post has any valid grounds. And since I’ve never played DAOC I can’t say that I believe you.

Yeah, I figured as much. Sorry about that. It’s just kinda complicated, and I’m not up to typing it all out right now.

It’s all too easy to say it was the faction PvP, but there was so much more to it than that – from the reward system and how it managed not to be a grind, despite taking a massive amount of time to cap – to how in spite of its benefits, it managed to be optional and consensual, yet integrated with the PvE, rather than being marginalized by being kept completely separate.

Vzur.7123:

Mujen.5287:

Vzur.7123:

DAOC was the only MMO that really had a good endgame, IMHO. I don’t feel like typing up a lengthy elaboration, but I think anyone who played it knows what I mean… WoW and its gear-grinding clones don’t even come close.

Then I don’t believe your post has any valid grounds. And since I’ve never played DAOC I can’t say that I believe you.

Yeah, I figured as much. Sorry about that. It’s just kinda complicated, and I’m not up to typing it all out right now.

It’s all too easy to say it was the faction PvP, but there was so much more to it than that – from the reward system and how it managed not to be a grind, despite taking a massive amount of time to cap – to how in spite of its benefits, it managed to be optional and consensual, yet integrated with the PvE, rather than being marginalized by being kept completely separate.

From the way you’re describing the game from an outside perspective that seems like a form of grind. But I think with the amount of fun that you had from the game never made you feel like you were grinding. You were achieving things but they came naturally.

Excluding dungeons that’s how I felt about leveling in GW2 I never felt like there was a struggle to hit 80 it just happen when it did. But with the new added incentives to do dungeons from the patch hopefully it continues to give me that feeling I once had.

Vzur.7123:

DAOC was the only MMO that really had a good endgame, IMHO. I don’t feel like typing up a lengthy elaboration, but I think anyone who played it knows what I mean… WoW and its gear-grinding clones don’t even come close.

I played it at launch.

It had one of the worst grinds to cap I’ve experienced in any MMO ever and I’ve been playing them for 15 years now. I made it to around level 40ish before I burnt out entirely. Considering how much of a grind it was just to get to cap, I can’t imagine what sort of a grind would have been awaiting me at cap.

Nostalgia is a powerful force.

The perfect end game is where you literally can’t win.

In most MMO’s getting the “best” of everything or all the achievements is like beating the game basically until the next set of content comes out.

Imagine if there was so many tiers of gear that it was impossible to get the best gear before the next one is out.

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

Vzur.7123:

DAOC was the only MMO that really had a good endgame, IMHO. I don’t feel like typing up a lengthy elaboration, but I think anyone who played it knows what I mean… WoW and its gear-grinding clones don’t even come close.

I played it at launch.

It had one of the worst grinds to cap I’ve experienced in any MMO ever and I’ve been playing them for 15 years now. I made it to around level 40ish before I burnt out entirely. Considering how much of a grind it was just to get to cap, I can’t imagine what sort of a grind would have been awaiting me at cap.

Nostalgia is a powerful force.

Did you play other MMOs before it, like EQ or AC? I think that sort of levelgrind was just the norm back then.

Vzur.7123:

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

Vzur.7123:

DAOC was the only MMO that really had a good endgame, IMHO. I don’t feel like typing up a lengthy elaboration, but I think anyone who played it knows what I mean… WoW and its gear-grinding clones don’t even come close.

I played it at launch.

It had one of the worst grinds to cap I’ve experienced in any MMO ever and I’ve been playing them for 15 years now. I made it to around level 40ish before I burnt out entirely. Considering how much of a grind it was just to get to cap, I can’t imagine what sort of a grind would have been awaiting me at cap.

Nostalgia is a powerful force.

Did you play other MMOs before it, like EQ or AC? I think that sort of levelgrind was just the norm back then.

I support this.

All the MMOs I played before WoW (ragnarok online, priston tale, lineage2, etc.) were all Korean style grind fests. It was just the norm back then like a quest system is the norm today for modern MMOs.

I’d like to see more titles and achievements. I know there are a ton of achievements already, but I’d really like to have better rewards around this (even if it’s just money).

IMO, there is a TON of under-utilized content (certainly in every MMO). One of the things I’m looking forward to is completing jumping puzzles. I’d like to see a little more structure around them (perhaps some NPCs and lore to hint about locations?). I like the idea of 100% map completion as part of the current end-game, but ANet could build even more incentive into going back to lower level areas.

One way to do this would be to reduce the travel cost after your story quest is over or increase monetary rewards to be on par with your level rather than the area. One thing that was sad was how the PQs in WAR went from awesome at launch to abandoned after a couple months. I think it’s key to either keep the new toons progressing through content, and add incentive for the single-toon-players too keep revisiting ALL the content. It’s disappointing to see the huddled masses of lvl 80s outside Arah rather than engaging the game.

I think SWTOR was onto something with how the legacy system provided a way to weave all your alts together, but they have yet to take it far enough. I think ‘end-game’ should focus on ACCOUNT-based rewards that are both significant and worth playing for. End-game rewards should be more than just gear (cosmetic or otherwise).

I guess I’m not being super specific here, but players enjoy a lot more than gear in their games and the ‘end-game’ should reflect that. I think some minor tweaks can be done to the heart and event systems to keep the rewards scaled to the players so that the content that wasn’t part of my initial play-through can be just as fun/valuable. Also, achievements based on account can be key here, too. Kill 1000 Risen? Counting that on a per-toon basis discourages alts (in fact why should we feel the need to call them ‘alts’?). There are numerous ways to allow achievements to aggregate over your account stats in ways that encourage alt rolling with out also detracting from people who only want to play one toon.

That’s my 2 cents.

Vzur.7123:

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

Vzur.7123:

DAOC was the only MMO that really had a good endgame, IMHO. I don’t feel like typing up a lengthy elaboration, but I think anyone who played it knows what I mean… WoW and its gear-grinding clones don’t even come close.

I played it at launch.

It had one of the worst grinds to cap I’ve experienced in any MMO ever and I’ve been playing them for 15 years now. I made it to around level 40ish before I burnt out entirely. Considering how much of a grind it was just to get to cap, I can’t imagine what sort of a grind would have been awaiting me at cap.

Nostalgia is a powerful force.

Did you play other MMOs before it, like EQ or AC? I think that sort of levelgrind was just the norm back then.

I’ve been playing them for 15 years now. I started with UO in 1997.

Meadows.1659

Just because the game still exists doesnt mean that it is succesful. Most every mmo thats ever been made still has a player base of some type.
And also ask yourself this… Why hasnt there been any upgrades or expansions in the last 7 years? probably because it wasnt profitable enough to validate one i would assume.

Sounds like you never actually played Guild Wars. Eye of the north was the only expansion Guild Wars ever got and it was released August 31st, 2007. Both Nightfall(released October 27, 2006) & Factions(released April 28, 2006) are stand alone campaigns that can be played without owning any of the others.

The reason they stopped doing expansions or campaigns for GW wasn’t because there was no interest in playing the game. Arena Net was working on the campaign Guild Wars Utopia when they realized that there was no way they were going to be able to do all the things they wanted with the initial direction they had chosen for the game. So they wrapped up utopia and used some of it’s content to make eye of the north, which is the one and only expansion for guild wars. Then they told us they had decided instead to make GW2.

Since that announcement and the release of eye of the north, Guild Wars has seen lot’s of free content added to it. Even as recent as the last year in the form of Guild Wars Beyond Guild Wars is/was a major success for Arena Net and Tons of people still play the game. They still update the game regularly the last update being September 20, 2012 They are also still adding things like costumes to the in game store. I’m also pretty sure we’ve not seen the last of the content added to guild wars.

So you would be very wrong to think Guild Wars has not been profitable and still isn’t bringing in profits for Arena Net.

“I don’t really believe in the word “endgame.” For example, In Skyrim once you complete the main story, you pretty much continue playing the same thing you’ve been doing over and over again. So with no monthly fee why should I take this any differently? I would much rather have quality content over just spewing out fluff until an expansion is released.” (Quote buttons have gone again.)

This is what I want. I don’t want to get to level 80 and feel like the game has ended and I’m left with repeatative “end game” content of any kind. I want to just keep playing for as long as possible.

This is one thing I think Guild Wars 1 did brilliantly with Hard Mode. The ‘end game’ there was finding out you hadn’t really finished, you were only halfway through. Ok there was no new story but mechanics-wise many of the missions were quite different, and there were vanquishes (completely clearing instances of enemies) to take on as well.

I never really understood people who considered getting GWAMM 50/50 as “finishing” the game because to me unless that included Legendary Guardian and Vanquisher at the very least you still had huge chunks of content still to do.

Depending on how much of it you do in the course of levelling I think GW2’s down-levelling system will provide much the same. You can get to level 80 and finish your personal story and there will still be whole areas to explore.

Plus finishing the multiple paths through the dungeons, titles and achivements and the various other bits and pieces that go into 100% completion.

@Danikat
I think a great way of implementing that, is reward players who don’t grave zerg, teams who are able to complete an explorable mode in a set amount of time.

Did you play other MMOs before it, like EQ or AC? I think that sort of levelgrind was just the norm back then.

I’ve been playing them for 15 years now. I started with UO in 1997.

Didn’t mean to come off like I was asking for your “MMO cred” – just whether you were familiar with other games of that time. Themeparks, really though. UO was a lot different. If you were coming from UO, I can see why DAOC would have seemed like a huge grind.

I think the game is great and im very much enoying myself so far. However being the leader of a largish guild Ive found there is a lack of truly challenging content for large groups in this game. Dynamic events end up being easy and zergy.

I would like to see them add either a 10 / 20 man version of their current explorable dungeons or add raids that are for 10 / 20 people. We dont need the gear grind for this, this is just about getting something really challenging for my guild to test its mettle. It could reward dungeon tokens so there wouldnt be an issue for people who dont want to raid.

Also would like to see them give the story mode dungeons an explorable mode. To me they seem like wasted content. This would add another 8 dungeon options for some variety. In my perfect world these would also have 10 / 20 man versions.

I would also like to see some harder dynamic events, the open world stuff is pretty tame. Would be nice to have the option to do instanced or open world content.

Lastly id like to see them add larger group sizes to the game. Being able to see someone on the map and teleport to their overflow is really important. It would be great if my guild could actually group up on those nights where we go out and do some world content. Say up to 40 man groups.

more difrent types of pvp and gvg guild halls and for god sake remove the grind for skins and the traveling coust is to TO HIGH