Guild Wars 2

Hi,

Assuming continued increase in stats on gear that require time to get, at what point will a fresh 80 get overwhelmed in all aspects of the game against a 80 with best-in-slot?

Cempa.5619:

Hi,

Assuming continued increase in stats on gear

There is no reason to assume that.

ANet stated that, at most, Ascended would be the absolute top quality in stats (along with Legendary), and recent rumor has it that they’ve scrapped the idea of more ascended gear entirely (if we’re lucky…I believe….). So as off now, there’s no reason to assume there’s going to be further “treadmill” than the current ascended stuff that, unfortunately, made its way into the game.

Honestly I don’t think we should be assuming continued increase in stats on gear. Its been months since the ascended fiasco and its backlash, and the only mention of increasing the stats on gear has been to say they won’t be doing it.

At the risk of sounding like an overly defensive fanboy; calm down and get over it.

It really needs to stop. Now. Say no to ascended armor. Say no to more tiers.

Invalidating people’s efforts into transmuting skins and placing runes by arbitrarily increasing the numbers and introducing increasingly longer and unfulfilling grinds is the typical ploy to keep people on the mindless treadmill to create artificial longevity.

The grinding required for ascended gear and their associated infusions is far longer than acquiring exotic gear. To make it worse, some are already time gated, so even if for some reason you were to sit down and have no life, it still wouldn’t help. If you have multiple characters, you will be spending months if not years just to acquire this gear regardless of how much you try. Just to acquire gear. If that keeps up, that would really contradict themselves when they say “we don’t want players to grind”

Performance in this game’s content should be dependent on player abilities, not by mindless grinding to slightly increase your stats every few months so the rest of your previous gear becomes obsolete. They just completely hosed jewelers with ascended trinkets.

there is no grinding associated with the current ascended gears, only time sinks. and some of those trinkets can be acquired by different means… so i don’t know what you are talking about.

one think i could be against of is the costant time sinking, like the new weapons and armors, a full set will require a month and a half if you want one

Amadan.9451:

there is no grinding associated with the current ascended gears, only time sinks. and some of those trinkets can be acquired by different means… so i don’t know what you are talking about.

one think i could be against of is the costant time sinking, like the new weapons and armors, a full set will require a month and a half if you want one

There’s no grinding? So there’s no large amount of repeating the same trivial tasks over and over again to acquire bigger numbers? Any method of acquiring earrings currently is both a time sink and a grind.

My point is with the infusions and what not that the OCD folks that absolutely must spend forever already have enough to do. I don’t wish for more vertical progression.

Then again, I don’t see the difference between the two. I just see it as a unnecessary waste of time.

Amadan.9451:

there is no grinding associated with the current ascended gears

Yes there is. Grinding and time gating. Both of which should kindly get kittened in the kitten with a bottle rocket as far as I’m concerned. However, sadly, Ascended is currently the “BiS”.

ArchonWing.9480:

There’s no grinding? So there’s no large amount of repeating the same trivial tasks over and over again to acquire bigger numbers? Any method of acquiring earrings currently is both a time sink and a grind.

Then again, I don’t see the difference between the two. I just see it as a unnecessary waste of time.

You’re right, it is still an MMO. Let’s try to still see the forest for the trees, eh?

There is already a stupid amount of time required to gear up with the existing Ascended gear. Adding more Ascended slots just mean that all those alts and alt builds that you still haven’t been able to get back up to top stats are even further behind.

If they add more Ascended gear, they’re going to drive away a lot of players. Personally I almost quit when they introduced the first Ascended gear… and now that I have multiple characters, some with multiple builds (others I want to have more builds), and only one of those characters has a top stat gear set… I would be heavily considering to just say “f it”.

Ascended gear and the monumental grind for it was already bad enough for forcing people to salvage their current gear and grind their way back up to 100%, and GW2 has probably already lost all the players who “need” a treadmill, as those players were going to hop to some other MMO anyways.

/gear treadmill mini-rant

ArchonWing.9480:

Amadan.9451:

there is no grinding associated with the current ascended gears, only time sinks. and some of those trinkets can be acquired by different means… so i don’t know what you are talking about.

one think i could be against of is the costant time sinking, like the new weapons and armors, a full set will require a month and a half if you want one

There’s no grinding? So there’s no large amount of repeating the same trivial tasks over and over again to acquire bigger numbers? Any method of acquiring earrings currently is both a time sink and a grind.

My point is with the infusions and what not that the OCD folks that absolutely must spend forever already have enough to do. I don’t wish for more vertical progression.

Then again, I don’t see the difference between the two. I just see it as a unnecessary waste of time.

What are you doing to get your earrings? I have a full set of ascended trinkets and the only time I’ve spent specifically on getting them was walking to the laurel or commendation vendors and clicking buy.

DaG.5103:

ArchonWing.9480:

There’s no grinding? So there’s no large amount of repeating the same trivial tasks over and over again to acquire bigger numbers? Any method of acquiring earrings currently is both a time sink and a grind.

Then again, I don’t see the difference between the two. I just see it as a unnecessary waste of time.

You’re right, it is still an MMO. Let’s try to still see the forest for the trees, eh?

Are you not aware of the manifesto for this particular game? Perhaps you’re ignoring the trees.

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

A massively multiplayer online game does not in anyone dictate that gear progression, grind, and general time wasting be a vital part of the game. But fine, I’ll stop being a jerk. The RPG part might actaully lend itself to a credible argument.

And please don’t say every other MMO does it. That doesn’t mean it’s any less good or bad.

SvenskNavi.9378:

ArchonWing.9480:

Amadan.9451:

there is no grinding associated with the current ascended gears, only time sinks. and some of those trinkets can be acquired by different means… so i don’t know what you are talking about.

one think i could be against of is the costant time sinking, like the new weapons and armors, a full set will require a month and a half if you want one

There’s no grinding? So there’s no large amount of repeating the same trivial tasks over and over again to acquire bigger numbers? Any method of acquiring earrings currently is both a time sink and a grind.

My point is with the infusions and what not that the OCD folks that absolutely must spend forever already have enough to do. I don’t wish for more vertical progression.

Then again, I don’t see the difference between the two. I just see it as a unnecessary waste of time.

What are you doing to get your earrings? I have a full set of ascended trinkets and the only time I’ve spent specifically on getting them was walking to the laurel or commendation vendors and clicking buy.

Really? Did the laurels and guild commendations magically materialize in your inventory? I’m sure you had to do more than that.

I got one with Guild commendations and will get the next one with laurels and ectos. It’s my fault for having 2 toons, but yea.

i think it is pathetic though to whine about +5 agony +5 of 1 stat for an infusion, i don’t think 30 more points in stat will be that huge difference, it’s just you thinking that since the number are slighlty greater if you don’t have it you cannot win the game…

but actually there is no game to win… otherwise you couldn’t play the same content at lv1

Amadan.9451:

i think it is pathetic though to whine about +5 agony +5 of 1 stat for an infusion, i don’t think 30 more points in stat will be that huge difference, it’s just you thinking that since the number are slighlty greater if you don’t have it you cannot win the game…

but actually there is no game to win… otherwise you couldn’t play the same content at lv1

Valid point. You could do most content in yellows.

However, this is why I am against further vertical progression because it’ll fall into the typical creep that happens with games like this. In the game’s current state, I don’t see a large need to change, so it’s currently an issue of principle. But clearly OP is looking at potential problems in the future.

on that i agree, i mean i’m not asking about any more vertical progression either, i simply deal with what we have now

ArchonWing.9480:

DaG.5103:

ArchonWing.9480:

There’s no grinding? So there’s no large amount of repeating the same trivial tasks over and over again to acquire bigger numbers? Any method of acquiring earrings currently is both a time sink and a grind.

Then again, I don’t see the difference between the two. I just see it as a unnecessary waste of time.

You’re right, it is still an MMO. Let’s try to still see the forest for the trees, eh?

Are you not aware of the manifesto for this particular game? Perhaps you’re ignoring the trees.

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

A massively multiplayer online game does not in anyone dictate that gear progression, grind, and general time wasting be a vital part of the game. But fine, I’ll stop being a jerk. The RPG part might actaully lend itself to a credible argument.

And please don’t say every other MMO does it. That doesn’t mean it’s any less good or bad.

Your theory is certainly sound, but you’d be hard pressed to find an MMO model that works without using time sink methods.

The problem is that players are obsessive. Too many players spend too much time playing a game.

Let’s say you release an MMO and completely eliminate grinding and time-gating. It’s like Mario! You log on, play through, and you get the ending and its rewards. Fantastic. How many players finish in one day? In several hours? Now, you tell them – come back next month! We’ll have a new thing to play through!

You hemorrhage players. These players will not be back next month, they’ll have forgotten and will be playing the next flavor of the month. Want them to stay in? Release updates faster – but good luck keeping players satisfied with the quality, or having enough money to even hire enough people to do the job fast enough.

Grind and time gating is required to keep players in your game. They need a REASON to do things multiple times, because enough content simply cannot be designed in any other way. Players don’t just complete content, they DEVOUR content. Through systems of Achievements, reward grinds, and time-gating, players can be remain interested in doing content until the next update releases without requiring too much in-house manpower to create it at the required speed.

So yes, part of being a Massively Multiplayer Online game is that you need a Massive number of players, and to have those players, you need to resort to some of the usual tactics. ArenaNet did a good job of eliminating some of the grind that is less enjoyable, but a portion of grind and well implemented time-gating is actually necessary for the lifespan of the game.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Cempa.5619:

Hi,

Assuming continued increase in stats on gear

There is no reason to assume that.

ANet stated that, at most, Ascended would be the absolute top quality in stats (along with Legendary), and recent rumor has it that they’ve scrapped the idea of more ascended gear entirely (if we’re lucky…I believe….). So as off now, there’s no reason to assume there’s going to be further “treadmill” than the current ascended stuff that, unfortunately, made its way into the game.

What Anet actually said (Chris W in the AMA) was that GW2 would have vertical progression going forward with a low power curve. The plain meaning is that stats will rise vertically over time, but slowly. I would, personally, love it if the rumors about scrapping VP were true, but so far the official word is that stats will increase slowly over time. I believe the addition of VP was a misstep, but one that can be corrected without long-term detriment to the game. If so, the OP (and hundreds like it) would need no answer.

Ascended weapons and armor will almost certainly be introduced with the new raids they are working on.

Hopefully that will be the end of the power increase.

ProxyDamage.9826:

ANet stated that, at most, Ascended would be the absolute top quality in stats (along with Legendary), and recent rumor has it that they’ve scrapped the idea of more ascended gear entirely (if we’re lucky…I believe….). So as off now, there’s no reason to assume there’s going to be further “treadmill” than the current ascended stuff that, unfortunately, made its way into the game.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ascended weapons and armor will almost certainly be introduced with the new raids they are working on.

Hopefully that will be the end of the power increase.

Here’s hoping Proxy is correct and Zudet isn’t. I really don’t want Ascended armor and weapons in the game. Given the anti-raid mentality of a subset of the player-base, adding a vertical progression component — no matter how slight — to ANet’s answer to raids will make that new content “look” more like traditional raids. I think this would be a massive mistake and hope ANet is smart enough not to do it.

Who even stated that a “raid” requires decreasing the value of existing gear? If you want gear gating, look at stuff like Agony Resist in FotM. There you have resistance gating content that is only available by playing the content and preying to the RNG gods. Similar mechanisms can be used for any other “progression”.

You don’t need to destroy the value of existing gear in order to set gates on content.

ArchonWing.9480:

DaG.5103:

ArchonWing.9480:

There’s no grinding? So there’s no large amount of repeating the same trivial tasks over and over again to acquire bigger numbers? Any method of acquiring earrings currently is both a time sink and a grind.

Then again, I don’t see the difference between the two. I just see it as a unnecessary waste of time.

You’re right, it is still an MMO. Let’s try to still see the forest for the trees, eh?

Are you not aware of the manifesto for this particular game? Perhaps you’re ignoring the trees.

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

A massively multiplayer online game does not in anyone dictate that gear progression, grind, and general time wasting be a vital part of the game. But fine, I’ll stop being a jerk. The RPG part might actaully lend itself to a credible argument.

And please don’t say every other MMO does it. That doesn’t mean it’s any less good or bad.

SvenskNavi.9378:

ArchonWing.9480:

Amadan.9451:

there is no grinding associated with the current ascended gears, only time sinks. and some of those trinkets can be acquired by different means… so i don’t know what you are talking about.

one think i could be against of is the costant time sinking, like the new weapons and armors, a full set will require a month and a half if you want one

There’s no grinding? So there’s no large amount of repeating the same trivial tasks over and over again to acquire bigger numbers? Any method of acquiring earrings currently is both a time sink and a grind.

My point is with the infusions and what not that the OCD folks that absolutely must spend forever already have enough to do. I don’t wish for more vertical progression.

Then again, I don’t see the difference between the two. I just see it as a unnecessary waste of time.

What are you doing to get your earrings? I have a full set of ascended trinkets and the only time I’ve spent specifically on getting them was walking to the laurel or commendation vendors and clicking buy.

Really? Did the laurels and guild commendations magically materialize in your inventory? I’m sure you had to do more than that.

I got one with Guild commendations and will get the next one with laurels and ectos. It’s my fault for having 2 toons, but yea.

No.

I got the laurels from doing the daily and monthly stuff that I was already doing before laurels were even introduced. No time added there.

The guild commendations were rewarded to me for participating in guild missions. Since these I also did not do exclusively for commendations but also to do stuff with the guild and get us merits, it’s also not going out of my way. Besides, at 6 a week, and an hour to do a full set of missions, that’s only 2 hours of play for ascended earrings, several rares, plenty of silver, and a chance at a free ascended item, that’s barely a grind. Sounds more like normal gameplay.

[snipped because this forum software is… lame]
@dag

Your theory is certainly sound, but you’d be hard pressed to find an MMO model that works without using time sink methods.

The problem is that players are obsessive. Too many players spend too much time playing a game.

Let’s say you release an MMO and completely eliminate grinding and time-gating. It’s like Mario! You log on, play through, and you get the ending and its rewards. Fantastic. How many players finish in one day? In several hours? Now, you tell them – come back next month! We’ll have a new thing to play through!

You hemorrhage players. These players will not be back next month, they’ll have forgotten and will be playing the next flavor of the month. Want them to stay in? Release updates faster – but good luck keeping players satisfied with the quality, or having enough money to even hire enough people to do the job fast enough.

Grind and time gating is required to keep players in your game. They need a REASON to do things multiple times, because enough content simply cannot be designed in any other way. Players don’t just complete content, they DEVOUR content. Through systems of Achievements, reward grinds, and time-gating, players can be remain interested in doing content until the next update releases without requiring too much in-house manpower to create it at the required speed.

So yes, part of being a Massively Multiplayer Online game is that you need a Massive number of players, and to have those players, you need to resort to some of the usual tactics. ArenaNet did a good job of eliminating some of the grind that is less enjoyable, but a portion of grind and well implemented time-gating is actually necessary for the lifespan of the game.

You make good points on the demographic problem. Even Gw2 itself needed some time sinks and a bit of progression to not completely alienate them. It is necessary for them to “fill the seats” so to speak.

However, it is my opinion that we have been conditioned to accept mediocrity. Indeed, shallow vertical progression as I’ve said above were an effective way to keep players, but I feel it’s simply a way to mask mediocre and unevolving content. There’s been no urge to change that because these ways have worked. Obsessive players are like locusts; there is no way to satiate their tastes because they will simply consume everything that’s handed to them. And it’s been true in this game too. I won’t dispute that.

Still, I would have to say that my own personal interests (and hopefully a lot of casual players) would insist that quality of play trumps quantity of play. This isn’t a subscription based game. They don’t need us logging in every day and month. Hell, if we just occasionally logged on to see the newest content and spend money in the gem store, they would be most happy. cough

This game was designed to be put down and picked up later again. I stopped playing for several months and when I came back, the game was actually better. Pretty sure there’s a lot of casual gamers that do that; and these days when gaming is so mainstream, there’s going to be a larger crowd on this.

And the competitive aspect of gameplay can keep players playing indefinitely if it’s engaging enough. Ok, currently the shape isn’t so great but if there were adjustments to emphasize skill, it will naturally grow a hardcore gathering… like any game really. I mean people take wvw seriously in its current shape. Even before those wxp points. What if was actually better?

Basically, this game currently greatly emphasizes skill over gear in reasonably difficult content. (Some may argue that it’s because it’s too easy, but I guess I’m not godly enough, but that at least proves something. But hey, look at all the JP QQ) You certainly don’t need gear to succeed in anything in this game. I’d like to look at this game 3 years from now and feel the same thing.

In the end though, I am actually as well of reality as you are but it is why I hold any attempt to change it for the better in high regards and would love for Anet to keep it up. In retrospect, I think fotm was an excellent way to contain the grindbugs, and wouldn’t fret if they made a few more hamster wheels to keep them occupied for the next decade or so. Until then though, I hope it doesn’t negatively impact my own gameplay.

I may be an idealistic fool, but without ideals, nothing will ever change. So I’ll support Anet on their manifesto because they have the power to change something.

ArchonWing.9480:

You make good points on the demographic problem. Even Gw2 itself needed some time sinks and a bit of progression to not completely alienate them.

However, it is my opinion that we have been conditioned to accept mediocrity. Obsessive players are like locusts; there is no way to satiate their tastes because they will simply consume everything that’s handed to them. And it’s been true in this game too. I won’t dispute that.

Still, I would have to say that my own personal interests (and hopefully a lot of casual players) would insist that quality of play trumps quantity of play. This isn’t a subscription based game. They don’t need us logging in every day and month. Hell, if we just occasionally logged on to see the newest content and spend money in the gem store, they would be most happy. cough

This game was designed to be put down and picked up later again. I stopped playing for several months and when I came back, the game was actually better. Pretty sure there’s a lot of casual gamers that do that; and these days when gaming is so mainstream, there’s going to be a larger crowd on this. And I wonder what kind of player is more likely to buy gold with gems.

And the competitive aspect of gameplay can keep players playing indefinitely if it’s engaging enough. Ok, currently the shape isn’t so great but if there were adjustments to emphasize skill, it will naturally grow a hardcore gathering… like any game really. I mean people take wvw seriously in its current shape. What if was actually better?

Basically, this game currently greatly emphasizes skill over gear in reasonably difficult content. (Some may argue that it’s because it’s too easy, but I guess I’m not godly enough, but that at least proves something. But hey, look at all the JP QQ) You certainly don’t need gear to succeed in anything in this game. I’d like to look at this game 3 years from now and feel the same thing.

In the end though, I am actually as well of reality as you are. In retrospect, I think fotm was an excellent way to contain the grindbugs, and wouldn’t fret if they made a few more hamster wheels to keep them occupied for the next decade or so. Until then though, I hope it doesn’t negatively impact my own gameplay.

I completely agree with everything you are saying. My only point of contention was in the reality of the MMO genre that we have reached a consensus on.

I, too, think that skill should be the deciding factor in the game. It’s what makes the battle system so much more engaging than most MMOs on the market. The game is certainly casual friendly and a good fit taking breaks, but it’s simply because they are a business that they need to try and keep as many players on as they can. More players makes the game feel more popular which obvious helps sales, and keeps their sPvP more full which allows them to reach for the stars when it comes to tournaments and casting, which, again, helps sales. Also, the more you are playing, the more likely you are to want to buy: bank/bag slots as you acquire more things, boosters as you are more active, and cosmetic/limited items as any sort of envy may set in.

So it’s a necessary evil, I think, but it’s up to ANet to keep the curve low and the progression slow but steady.

I would like to see ascended gear added, but nothing beyond that. That said, I don’t particularly mind gear progression as long as there isn’t an absurd grind/timesink/rng associated.

Oh, and as long as I don’t have to pve for it :p

This is a moot question since it is against Anet policy

I must have not understood the in-game LA chatter that we will be getting new Celestial Armour -I assumed a new level of gear, I still don’t know what Celestil Armour is?

Cempa.5619:

I must have not understood the in-game LA chatter that we will be getting new Celestial Armour -I assumed a new level of gear, I still don’t know what Celestil Armour is?

It is a stat spread with every stat.
Higher TOTAL stats than other armor but lower than one focusing on something.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial#Triple_attribute

I geared my new warrior (crafting 1-80) fully on the same day.

what overwhelm, everyone has the same stats.

it’s amazing how unbelievably simple of a fix there is to all of this. crafting. when ascended gear was introduced, jewelrycrafting ended up as just a cheap alternative to the good stuff. the…. mr pib to the ascended dr. pepper. it came with a tedious grind through fractals. then it was time gated through the laurel vendor. then an easy way to get it came out with the guild comms, but guild missions are primarily aimed toward larger guilds.

so…… add them to the crafting recipes. if you look through them, one stage of gear requires 8 materials, and the one after it requires 15 of the same material. not so with tier 6 materials. it’s just 5 for level 80 exotics, and that’s all. which leaves room for a second stage of them, for 15 (or possibly even more) tier 6 mats and ectos, and problem solved. everything goes back to the way it was before the ascended gear was introduced, and the full final tier of gear comes in with a wide variety of ways to get it just like exotic has.

the ascended set is rounded out, crafting doesn’t end up being obsolete, and the gear treadmill is shut down. after that, it’s just a matter of legendary armor, if they decide to put that in at any point, but that would be on par with legendary weapons and wouldn’t be a new step on the treadmill.

problem solved.

Couple of days grinding CoF p1: 6/6 armor
4 weeks of guild missions : 2pc of ascended acc
Couple of fotm runs until 20, get 2 relic dailies, 10 days of fotm dailiy: 2pc of ascended rings (reduce time if you get a dps ring needed drop from daily chest)
20 laurels+250 badges of honor: ascended amulet
then just keep doing fotm for the cape

geared to the max.

I’m having fun grinding out new skins and stuff. I’m a bit on the fence with ascended armor but I wouldn’t miss it if they decided to scrap it. I’m working on getting every stat combo though so that would really put a damper on my goals with gw2.

Honestly, I get a little overwhelmed with gear in its current state. I know it’s amazingly easy to get full BiS gear compared to other games, but I still get a little lost.

Figuring out your ideal stat spread takes some trial and error, so there’s currency/time lost in trading pieces in and out. Then there’s evaluating whether it’s better to get certain traits from armor or trinkets, and whether it’s best to get them from karma, laurel, guid commendations, gold, or dungeon running.

Then you find out that if you want to optimize, you should probably have a different set of gear for different activities like WvW roaming, Zerg v Zerg, Endgame Dungeons, and open world content and that adds to the sense.

Not complaining, just sharing my reaction.

Gibson, I cannot agree more. Honestly, these people who say “I use one build everywhere” are likely using builds that perform below average in both dungeon and wvw. By the way, I have nearly every stat set for my ranger. Why? Because I love being able to customize my builds for whatever fight I’m facing whenever I want.

Indeed, the next gear tier scares the kitten out of me.