Guild Wars 2

What a lovely forum bug!

Sartharina.3542:

Viper and Zerker are both part of the meta, on roughly equal standing (Mixing in Assassin’s and Sinister for tweaking crit % for power and Duration for viper, respectively)

I can somewhat agree to this, but the OP has a point. Zerker is still the most popular and widely used. Not that I have actual figures, but I know what my guild uses and what other players talk about in chat and what I read in the forums. Zerker is still predominate IMO.

Tornupto.2304:

jheryn.8390:

There are NOT enough out there to make condition damage stats on par with Zerker builds. That is my point. The point of this thread was asking if anything besides zerker will ever be the optimal meta?

Conditions are already quite strong on some classes even stronger tahn any zerk build. I still don’t get the point why you think it’s not enough. It seems more that some ppl want zerk gear to vanish completely from the meta.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say now nor ever before that I do not think “it” is enough. Whatever “it” is. My thoughts were about inserting more creatures that are harmed more with conditions rather than simple, physical DPS. Yes there are a small amount of them, again Red Vale Guardian, but not that many. More of these types of creatures would make condition builds more popular IMO.

I have both zerker and condition toons/builds. I like them both, but I am not naive enough to believe that Condition builds are just as popular or as abundant as zerker builds.

One thing that annoys be about the “Zerker meta” is that I feel like, if I do go full-Zerker on certain classes, that I will then be unable to use certain weapons. Here’s an example:

Beserker would work great for a Scrapper, since the hammer is very pure damage-based, IMO. It even would work for a rifle. However, if I want to run pistol/pistol or flamethrower, then Condition Damage would be a useful stat to have, especially with some of the selections in the Firearms spec. P/P may not be able to be used to its full potential if I just go Power/Prec/Ferocity.

Yes, I know, I can do whatever I want to, but some people are rather choosy about what their teammates are doing, unfortunately. I have been using Carrion stat armor for P/P, hoping that the Vitality helps with survivability, and the Condi helps boost the pistol’s secondary effects.

Quick answer is yes and no. Yes it will change from zerker, no it will not change to anything other than DPS. This is the whole crutch of Mike O’s vision for GW2, everything is centered around that premise.

It would require a complete overhaul of the game’s content and mechanics and alienating most of the current, semi-loyal population in an effort to please a small subset (me included) that remembers fondly GW1’s glory years.

They’ve tried to implement other roles (druid, ventari-rev) and content (raids) but the emphasis still leans towards stuff that would make a player choose zerker/viper gear over the others. Don’t forget one of their promises for this game was to eliminate the groups looking for only one type of class to complete their party so as to not exclude others. A game that focuses DPS and less on designated roles fulfills that goal better than the traditional approach.

So, in other words, no it will not change.

Moyayuki.3619:

Beserker would work great for a Scrapper, since the hammer is very pure damage-based, IMO. It even would work for a rifle. However, if I want to run pistol/pistol or flamethrower, then Condition Damage would be a useful stat to have, especially with some of the selections in the Firearms spec. P/P may not be able to be used to its full potential if I just go Power/Prec/Ferocity.

Again: Who says that you have to use berserker stats to do the most damage? I thought condition does more damage for engis than direct dps.

Meta already changed 7+ months ago in a content where builds matter.

Ryou.2398:

sI have never seen an mmorpg with so many people who prefer to cheese through things doing the same exact tactics over and over.

Odd, that describes pretty much every trinity game I’ve seen, to me.

It doesnt get cheesier, to me, than mobs ignoring the dangerous characters to focus on the tough guy throwing yo mamma jokes, or whatever constitutes a taunt.

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Ashen.2907:

Ryou.2398:

sI have never seen an mmorpg with so many people who prefer to cheese through things doing the same exact tactics over and over.

Odd, that describes pretty much every trinity game I’ve seen, to me.

It doesnt get cheesier, to me, than mobs ignoring the dangerous characters to focus on the tough guy throwing yo mamma jokes, or whatever constitutes a taunt.

Then you didnt play much of those games, again people have no clue what they are talking about when they say trinity when most mmorpgs cover far more roles and classes then the trinity and those classes that tank, heal, or dps can do allot more things then just that. City of heroes for example we will talk about the defender archtypes, they where a support class however not all of them supported the same, for example if you want dark/dark defender you could cc with tentacles, while leaching life to heal your group and dpsing them at the same time, or a you may go fire/ice tanker where you have a can tank with a bit more dps from using fire with the defensives of ice, or an illusion controller where you can heal, crowd control, dps, and offer utility at the same time like blinds, my point is while you have some key roles most mmorpgs offer more then just those roles within those classes you can spec for other things to make them even more unique and diverse.

I dont know what mmorpg you played where all they had was 3 roles from 3 different classes, im guessing many here havent played many mmorpgs to begin with. Even wow had diverse classes.

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

I don’t run berserker stat armor or weapons on my main warrior, he has sinister weapons and armor. One of my other warriors runs carrion. Same for my condition necro. So no, not everyone runs zerker gear.

In trinity games there are mostly 1 tank, 1-2 healers and X guess what? DPS PLAYERS in a raid/whatever. I don’t get why some ppl think a trinity stops dps from beeing meta.

Tornupto.2304:

In trinity games there are mostly 1 tank, 1-2 healers and X guess what? DPS PLAYERS in a raid/whatever. I don’t get why some ppl think a trinity stops dps from beeing meta.

Yep, and its because they think trinity classes an mmorpgs are just that trinity when they usually offer tons of roles and classes and builds within those roles which can do more.

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Right but there are ways to get dps beyond just gear, certain classes that may build more for support may be able to help groups dps through buffs for example. Anyways there is condi atleast. In my honest opinion I think sigils should be more powerful and unique, they just arent very interesting. Of course I dont want to be op but there needs to be a way to make them more powerful and balanced, there are very few they truly stand out.

No one was arguing that about stats though. We are talking about gear diversity in general so people can play beyond just dps.

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Right but there are ways to get dps beyond just gear, certain classes that may build more for support may be able to help groups dps through buffs for example. Anyways there is condi atleast. In my honest opinion I think sigils should be more powerful and unique, they just arent very interesting. Of course I dont want to be op but there needs to be a way to make them more powerful and balanced, there are very few they truly stand out.

No one was arguing that about stats though. We are talking about gear diversity in general so people can play beyond just dps.

Are you suggesting there are not ways to get dps increase beyond gear in gw2?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower_Allies
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Presence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grace_of_the_Land
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence

Would you like me to continue?

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Right but there are ways to get dps beyond just gear, certain classes that may build more for support may be able to help groups dps through buffs for example. Anyways there is condi atleast. In my honest opinion I think sigils should be more powerful and unique, they just arent very interesting. Of course I dont want to be op but there needs to be a way to make them more powerful and balanced, there are very few they truly stand out.

No one was arguing that about stats though. We are talking about gear diversity in general so people can play beyond just dps.

Are you suggesting there are not ways to get dps increase beyond gear in gw2?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower_Allies
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Presence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grace_of_the_Land
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence

Would you like me to continue?

If your talking to me for crying outloud I literally just said the opposite did you even read it?

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

Ok but we aren’t talking about that, of course you can find people to do this with but realistically the majority don’t and people who want something different won’t always be available when you are, so it still is an issue for many. As far as builds being effective they can be in different ways if you played other mmorpgs you should know it’s hardly a pipe dream and im not saying all builds.

So, you admit you can play whatever role/build you want in GW2. However, you want the convenience of being able to do that with whatever other players happen to be available. No MMO has offered that level of accessibility in harder, instanced group PvE. To make it fly in WoW, Bliz had to implement Looking for Raid and lower the challenge level dramatically. As long as the challenge level is up or as long as people with time issues want to farm rewards as fast as they can, you will find exclusion based on perceived effectiveness. This is and will remain a people issue that is only susceptible to developer intervention via anonymous hot join and content difficulty nerfs.

Ryou.2398:

people have no clue what they are talking about when they say trinity when most mmorpgs cover far more roles and classes then the trinity and those classes that tank, heal, or dps can do allot more things then just that.

GW2 offers multiple roles for each profession. Not all professions can play all the roles the game offers. Offensive buffers, defensive buffers, controllers, aggro management, heal provider are all roles good groups use. The problem was twofold.

• Players found ways to complete dungeons that allowed them to ignore most of the options available to the professions. Anet has and should continue to address this through mob and encounter design.
• Some players cannot wrap their heads around the idea that gear choice, which is central to role design in older MMO’s, was only central to damage in GW2. Now, it plays more of a role in aggro management due to the tweaks to make Toughness central to aggro.

Ryou.2398:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Right but there are ways to get dps beyond just gear, certain classes that may build more for support may be able to help groups dps through buffs for example. Anyways there is condi atleast. In my honest opinion I think sigils should be more powerful and unique, they just arent very interesting. Of course I dont want to be op but there needs to be a way to make them more powerful and balanced, there are very few they truly stand out.

No one was arguing that about stats though. We are talking about gear diversity in general so people can play beyond just dps.

Are you suggesting there are not ways to get dps increase beyond gear in gw2?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower_Allies
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Presence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grace_of_the_Land
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence

Would you like me to continue?

If your talking to me for crying outloud I literally just said the opposite did you even read it?

Maybe I misunderstood you. The tone I was getting from skimming the thread was you saying gw2 was lacking something other games had. shrug.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

Ok but we aren’t talking about that, of course you can find people to do this with but realistically the majority don’t and people who want something different won’t always be available when you are, so it still is an issue for many. As far as builds being effective they can be in different ways if you played other mmorpgs you should know it’s hardly a pipe dream and im not saying all builds.

So, you admit you can play whatever role/build you want in GW2. However, you want the convenience of being able to do that with whatever other players happen to be available. No MMO has offered that level of accessibility in harder, instanced group PvE. To make it fly in WoW, Bliz had to implement Looking for Raid and lower the challenge level dramatically. As long as the challenge level is up or as long as people with time issues want to farm rewards as fast as they can, you will find exclusion based on perceived effectiveness. This is and will remain a people issue that is only susceptible to developer intervention via anonymous hot join and content difficulty nerfs.

Ryou’s reply,
No thats not what I was saying, I was saying you should be able to play to the strength of your class, im saying that you can be diverse and have a main role at the same time, and yes you can in other mmorpgs with no problem but you need to find certain classes to put in your groups depending on what you have, while certain games like eq1 or 2 had tons of classes you still may need to fill kitten or two depending on what you have however you could do content in many different ways with all different kinds of class combinations and builds.

Ryou.2398:

people have no clue what they are talking about when they say trinity when most mmorpgs cover far more roles and classes then the trinity and those classes that tank, heal, or dps can do allot more things then just that.

GW2 offers multiple roles for each profession. Not all professions can play all the roles the game offers. Offensive buffers, defensive buffers, controllers, aggro management, heal provider are all roles good groups use. The problem was twofold.

• Players found ways to complete dungeons that allowed them to ignore most of the options available to the professions. Anet has and should continue to address this through mob and encounter design.
• Some players cannot wrap their heads around the idea that gear choice, which is central to role design in older MMO’s, was only central to damage in GW2. Now, it plays more of a role in aggro management due to the tweaks to make Toughness central to aggro.

Ryou’s reply,
I agree with this but as I said earlier we should be able to play to out strengths but its to discouraged because people find ways around not using those roles as you pointed out.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Ryou.2398:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Right but there are ways to get dps beyond just gear, certain classes that may build more for support may be able to help groups dps through buffs for example. Anyways there is condi atleast. In my honest opinion I think sigils should be more powerful and unique, they just arent very interesting. Of course I dont want to be op but there needs to be a way to make them more powerful and balanced, there are very few they truly stand out.

No one was arguing that about stats though. We are talking about gear diversity in general so people can play beyond just dps.

Are you suggesting there are not ways to get dps increase beyond gear in gw2?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower_Allies
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Presence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grace_of_the_Land
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence

Would you like me to continue?

If your talking to me for crying outloud I literally just said the opposite did you even read it?

Maybe I misunderstood you. The tone I was getting from skimming the thread was you saying gw2 was lacking something other games had. shrug.

I did say it lacks, but it also offers things others do not, but I never said you cannot offer dps through buffs.

Ryou.2398:

No thats not what I was saying, I was saying you should be able to play to the strength of your class, im saying that you can be diverse and have a main role at the same time, and yes you can in other mmorpgs with no problem but you need to find certain classes to put in your groups depending on what you have, while certain games like eq1 or 2 had tons of classes you still may need to fill kitten or two depending on what you have however you could do content in many different ways with all different kinds of class combinations and builds.

GW2 profession design is such that all professions have uses and strengths. You can play to the strength of your class. You seem to want me to believe that there is no meta in some other MMO’s? That there is no exclusion based on which classes play a role better? Not only is this contrary to my experience, it’s hard to believe. Are you assuming that developers can design a game so that diverse classes are all going to be thought equal by players who care about efficiency?

Ryou.2398:

I agree with this but as I said earlier we should be able to play to out strengths but its to discouraged because people find ways around not using those roles as you pointed out.

That was definitely the case in v. 1 dungeons. Still is, afaik. ANet has promoted the aggro management role in raids, as well as healing. They’ve promoted condi use by putting high toughness on some mobs, and the break bar mechanic provides more easily understandable and accessible of the control role.

I’m unsure what else they could do without: (1) reworking the whole game over to hard trinity+; or (2) nerfing the damage dealing stats. Since (1) would alienate all the players that like greater self-sufficiency and take developer resources away from new content generation — which is sorely needed, I don’t see that as advisable. Also, since glass stats and bulwark/sustain stats seem fairly well balanced in the PvP modes, I don’t think a nerf sufficient to turn players away from glass is warranted.

Ryou.2398:

But thats kind of the point others are trying to make, if a guardian can specialize in keeping others alive then why not? Why does everyone have to self survival when other classes can do it for you for people that enjoy that playstyle?

It’s simple. Because you just don’t get it both ways in this game. There is no holy trinity. What is left? What you get in GW2. Can you have it both ways? Maybe, but that’s not really relevant. lots of things can be. What’s relevant is what is.

What amazes me, is that conversation is still going after 3+ years.
One of the main reasons that we got gear like Viper’s and Sinister’s is because of this very conversation. Zerk gear was WAY to prevalent, and conditions really kinda sucked. Which is also why they changed them, previously there was only a 25 stack limit. Which really hurt any condi builds, as condi damage would get overridden by incidental condis from a zerk build.

But in any case, Zerk has bene the PvE meta since forever. Part of the reason that it won’t change any time soon is that many of the “older” players have already invested in beserker gear on many of their toons, and see no reason to change. Plus, newer players coming in look to the older players and see berserker gear everywhere, so they follow suit, instead of finding out what works best for them.
The reality is that you can complete any open world content, and most dungeons (exluding raids) in whatever build/gear you want. I was soloing dungeons with an axe/axe valk warrior, and rabid necro (even after I was told that it would be near impossible because those didn’t output enough damage).

Sarrs.4831:

Mea.5491:

When players’ mentality changes and they realize that DPS is not everything. In other words: never.

What else are you going to gear for? Funs per second?

You’ll find it difficult to get more than 160 to 280 millifuns per second, regardless of gear. However, maximizing funs per minute leans heavily toward Valkyrie’s and mixed gear, depending on your class, and per hour tends for a more centered, Celestial approach. You can also add a dozen or so effits per minute, which interferes additively with funs per minute, by investing into some Rampager’s… again, depending on your chosen profession.

Berserker’s Popularity:

• The reason berserker gear is popular is because an entire set of it is more accessible to obtain than an entire set of viper’s gear even though they are fairly equal in their offensive power.

To the OP:

• I noticed you aren’t responding to anyone, so I’m not going to bother going over your post point-by-point. However, everything you want is in the raiding environment. If you want challenging content, that’s where it is; killing the Megasdestroyer shouldn’t be as annoying as killing Vale Guardian. I love raids, but I also don’t want the entire game to be as demanding as they are because I know the game would be empty if this were the case.

DGraves.3720:

DeceiverX.8361:

… actually, stat-per-stat, DPS is the least efficient way to play the game…

How do you figure? This cannot be true alongside this:

People will always pursue the most time-efficient option to beat the game.

Since no other resource but time is ever brought into question the only efficient way to play is through DPS. The Magi’s Warrior example swapped time for energy taking far longer but essentially standing around doing little to nothing quite happily. But since the reward system works off of time (Kills = loot, faster kills = more kills = more loot) there’s no real value to endurance/player-energy conservation (AFK gameplay).

Stat-per-stat efficiency means that in the case of taking and receiving damage, building full DPS is the least efficient when making exchanges from stats alone.

Time-wise, obviously optimizing damage is best. But that’s exactly it; you implicitly assumed the only optimization is based on time, which is what my post states when claiming this aspect of video games is often heavily-enforced by either a forced trinity system or a “meta” built around the game’s systems to typically optimize time.

Paulytnz.7619:

I think part of the problem is Anet balances the game around zerk gear. Or at least I think they do maybe? Look at the hp pools of even just trash mobs. It can take a while to kill them in PVT gear for example depending on the class I would have to add. Or perhaps those HP pools are so large because they expect more than 1 person to attack and kill a creature.

You’ve got it reversed. The bosses that spawned at the end of an event chain (or were the event chain, back when Boar/Troll/Bandit/etc. was a thing) were zerg-rushed by dozens of toons with power/crit buffed to the sky. There is (was?) a limit to how much damage conditions could do, so if too many toons relied on burning, poison, bleeding and so on to do their damage they barely scratched the boss before he went down faster than… er, well very very fast.

So in order to get a few shots in and get credit for the kill, and the loot, you had to get there fast and do a lot of damage fast. So zerk gear was pretty much the only way to go. And because the bosses died in like ten seconds or so, Anet buffed them by adding more and more hp so someone besides the first dozen toons to arrive could get some loot.

Players set the meta, not devs. They can try, like making ranged skill do much less damage than melee or making bosses immune to damage until they are burned, poisoned or whatever. But players will always seek out the path or least resistance. Min/maxers blaze the trail by finding and committing to the most effective builds, and many players follow their leads.

Not all though. I tend towards carrion and soldier gear, but I mostly play solo or with my wife so I don’t feel any pressure to conform to others’ standards.

Why does it even matter ?

There will always be a meta, no amount of trying to force stats out of it will solve any issues. The same people who complain about “Zerker” meta, will complain when it swaps to Meta Y. If Meta Y were to suddenly swap to Meta G, you’d still see people complain.

Moral of the story people will always find an optimal meta, it’s your choice to do something about it. Not the devs to placate toward forcing a meta that you find more enjoyable or think is superior to the previous one.

The game is certainly not designed around Berserker gear or putting out the perfect damage rotation most of the time. People would NEVER finish any open world event chains if that was the case.
Raids are the only place where good damage matters and yet even raids can be finished with 8 or so players and therefor do not even require a perfect full damage team.

It is kind of interesting how GW2 is always pointed out to be the litteraly only game where everyone goes for full damage builds.
Similar games without a holy trinity will always focus on damage increase as far as gearing up is concerned. The ability to heal yourself and the lack of a tank allows you to do this.
Even in Holy Trinity based game where people had to run a dedicated tanks and healers they’d tend to maximize their damage as much as possible unless it was the hardest endgame dungeons or raids.

You can play whatever you want. Nobody forces you to move away from your Soldier gear full signet longbow ranger if that is what you enjoy.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

No thats not what I was saying, I was saying you should be able to play to the strength of your class, im saying that you can be diverse and have a main role at the same time, and yes you can in other mmorpgs with no problem but you need to find certain classes to put in your groups depending on what you have, while certain games like eq1 or 2 had tons of classes you still may need to fill kitten or two depending on what you have however you could do content in many different ways with all different kinds of class combinations and builds.

GW2 profession design is such that all professions have uses and strengths. You can play to the strength of your class. You seem to want me to believe that there is no meta in some other MMO’s? That there is no exclusion based on which classes play a role better? Not only is this contrary to my experience, it’s hard to believe. Are you assuming that developers can design a game so that diverse classes are all going to be thought equal by players who care about efficiency?

Ryou.2398:

I agree with this but as I said earlier we should be able to play to out strengths but its to discouraged because people find ways around not using those roles as you pointed out.

That was definitely the case in v. 1 dungeons. Still is, afaik. ANet has promoted the aggro management role in raids, as well as healing. They’ve promoted condi use by putting high toughness on some mobs, and the break bar mechanic provides more easily understandable and accessible of the control role.

I’m unsure what else they could do without: (1) reworking the whole game over to hard trinity+; or (2) nerfing the damage dealing stats. Since (1) would alienate all the players that like greater self-sufficiency and take developer resources away from new content generation — which is sorely needed, I don’t see that as advisable. Also, since glass stats and bulwark/sustain stats seem fairly well balanced in the PvP modes, I don’t think a nerf sufficient to turn players away from glass is warranted.

My point is in those other mmorpgs more builds where meta then this one for example, the mmorpgs ive played where simply far more diverse and had more room to build. And yes devs can design an mmorpg with more balance ive seen it. And I have not been playing gw2 since the start so I dont know how it was originaly designed anyways. And ive never seen anyone play to the strength of a class in this game, well very few people considering no one uses roles in this, everyone just goes for dps so that doesnt even make sense. The only meta for roles as far as I know is druid healing, and mesmer utility.

And for the most part I disagree with, I dont know why you felt the need to bring up more stuff when I already said I agree with your other point.

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

But thats kind of the point others are trying to make, if a guardian can specialize in keeping others alive then why not? Why does everyone have to self survival when other classes can do it for you for people that enjoy that playstyle?

It’s simple. Because you just don’t get it both ways in this game. There is no holy trinity. What is left? What you get in GW2. Can you have it both ways? Maybe, but that’s not really relevant. lots of things can be. What’s relevant is what is.

It is relevant to the topic so you shouldnt be saying it isnt at all.

This whole thread is toxic and the opposite of why I play this game.

Esquilax.3491:

This whole thread is toxic and the opposite of why I play this game.

It is? I didnt mean to sound toxic if I did, I thought it was a healthy discussion for the most part.

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

No thats not what I was saying, I was saying you should be able to play to the strength of your class, im saying that you can be diverse and have a main role at the same time, and yes you can in other mmorpgs with no problem but you need to find certain classes to put in your groups depending on what you have, while certain games like eq1 or 2 had tons of classes you still may need to fill kitten or two depending on what you have however you could do content in many different ways with all different kinds of class combinations and builds.

GW2 profession design is such that all professions have uses and strengths. You can play to the strength of your class. You seem to want me to believe that there is no meta in some other MMO’s? That there is no exclusion based on which classes play a role better? Not only is this contrary to my experience, it’s hard to believe. Are you assuming that developers can design a game so that diverse classes are all going to be thought equal by players who care about efficiency?

Ryou.2398:

I agree with this but as I said earlier we should be able to play to out strengths but its to discouraged because people find ways around not using those roles as you pointed out.

That was definitely the case in v. 1 dungeons. Still is, afaik. ANet has promoted the aggro management role in raids, as well as healing. They’ve promoted condi use by putting high toughness on some mobs, and the break bar mechanic provides more easily understandable and accessible of the control role.

I’m unsure what else they could do without: (1) reworking the whole game over to hard trinity+; or (2) nerfing the damage dealing stats. Since (1) would alienate all the players that like greater self-sufficiency and take developer resources away from new content generation — which is sorely needed, I don’t see that as advisable. Also, since glass stats and bulwark/sustain stats seem fairly well balanced in the PvP modes, I don’t think a nerf sufficient to turn players away from glass is warranted.

My point is in those other mmorpgs more builds where meta then this one for example, the mmorpgs ive played where simply far more diverse and had more room to build. And yes devs can design an mmorpg with more balance ive seen it. And I have not been playing gw2 since the start so I dont know how it was originaly designed anyways. And ive never seen anyone play to the strength of a class in this game, well very few people considering no one uses roles in this, everyone just goes for dps so that doesnt even make sense. The only meta for roles as far as I know is druid healing, and mesmer utility.

And for the most part I disagree with, I dont know why you felt the need to bring up more stuff when I already said I agree with your other point.

Warrior -> Group might, Banners
Necromancer -> AoE Condition spread
Tempest -> AoE direct damage, off-healing
Revenant -> Boon application, boon duration, breakbar
Guardian -> Protection, reflect

The only classes that have nothing they really excel at in the current raid enviroment are thieves and engineers.
Thief: Stealth is not useful except maybe the start of the siege event in wing 3. Damage is not better than other classes.
Engineer: was the best class for breakbars on large hitboxes before the slick shoe nerf.
Dungeons, fractals and open world don’t need this degree of group synergy so you won’t ever see it there.

The classes have roles they excel at, but you will only see it in raids, sPvP and organised WvW groups.

Kythan Myr.4719:

Quick answer is yes and no. Yes it will change from zerker, no it will not change to anything other than DPS.

It has already happened. The new, upgraded “zerker meta” is no longer Berserker only. It’s “Berserker, Assassin, Viper, Sinister” meta now. We could call it Glass Cannon meta, it would be more accurate.

Kythan Myr.4719:

This is the whole crutch of Mike O’s vision for GW2, everything is centered around that premise.

And the Raids, that were supposed to break that paradigm, only made it stronger by placing too much relevance on Doing It Fast(er).

And to OP – it’s unlikely to change. If anything, lastest changes are only making it stronger.

I think if they added in a build saver that made it easy to swap builds with a simple to use gear swapper system we would see more build diversity as there really are many viable builds out there. People just don’t want to change their builds if they don’t absolutely have to, especially if they’re on an alt or new to the game or a casual and don’t have their different build’s memorized.

What exactly is PvE Meta anyway? In PvE, it matters the least what build you have. Choose a build you find the most fun, not one that someone else tells you is “the best”.

Since day 1 I’ve refused to ever have a character that’s wearing Berserker stats, and they all still do well. The closest I have to it is Assassin’s gear and that’s good enough for me.

You seem to be pushing a more passive/reactive defensive model. I’m not sure that’s a good fit here. Certainly for my thief, survival is based almost entirely upon active avoidance. I suppose I could go tankier, but that really isn’t why I play thief.

I’m going to give this suggestion a thumbs down. Offensive stats are favored because this is an action MMO. A large part of your defense is active by design, which reduces the efficacy of passive defenses while tending to favor quicker kills to reduce damage taken.

Ryou.2398:

Ashen.2907:

Ryou.2398:

sI have never seen an mmorpg with so many people who prefer to cheese through things doing the same exact tactics over and over.

Odd, that describes pretty much every trinity game I’ve seen, to me.

It doesnt get cheesier, to me, than mobs ignoring the dangerous characters to focus on the tough guy throwing yo mamma jokes, or whatever constitutes a taunt.

Then you didnt play much of those games, again people have no clue what they are talking about when they say trinity when most mmorpgs cover far more roles and classes then the trinity and those classes that tank, heal, or dps can do allot more things then just that. City of heroes for example we will talk about the defender archtypes, they where a support class however not all of them supported the same, for example if you want dark/dark defender you could cc with tentacles, while leaching life to heal your group and dpsing them at the same time, or a you may go fire/ice tanker where you have a can tank with a bit more dps from using fire with the defensives of ice, or an illusion controller where you can heal, crowd control, dps, and offer utility at the same time like blinds, my point is while you have some key roles most mmorpgs offer more then just those roles within those classes you can spec for other things to make them even more unique and diverse.

And you can do much (and perhaps more) of that with GW2 builds as well.

Ryou.2398:

I dont know what mmorpg you played where all they had was 3 roles from 3 different classes, im guessing many here havent played many mmorpgs to begin with. Even wow had diverse classes.

I didn’t say anything about class diversity. I didn’t claim to have played MMOs where all they had was 3 roles from 3 different classes. I did respond to your comment about cheesing content with repetitive tactics by pointing out that it described trinity play style to me. You mention WoW. How many major fights in WoW did not involve having one, or more, characters holding aggro while one or more characters healed, while more characters DPSed the foe?

tolunart.2095:

Paulytnz.7619:

I think part of the problem is Anet balances the game around zerk gear. Or at least I think they do maybe? Look at the hp pools of even just trash mobs. It can take a while to kill them in PVT gear for example depending on the class I would have to add. Or perhaps those HP pools are so large because they expect more than 1 person to attack and kill a creature.

You’ve got it reversed. The bosses that spawned at the end of an event chain (or were the event chain, back when Boar/Troll/Bandit/etc. was a thing) were zerg-rushed by dozens of toons with power/crit buffed to the sky. There is (was?) a limit to how much damage conditions could do, so if too many toons relied on burning, poison, bleeding and so on to do their damage they barely scratched the boss before he went down faster than… er, well very very fast.

So in order to get a few shots in and get credit for the kill, and the loot, you had to get there fast and do a lot of damage fast. So zerk gear was pretty much the only way to go. And because the bosses died in like ten seconds or so, Anet buffed them by adding more and more hp so someone besides the first dozen toons to arrive could get some loot.

Players set the meta, not devs. They can try, like making ranged skill do much less damage than melee or making bosses immune to damage until they are burned, poisoned or whatever. But players will always seek out the path or least resistance. Min/maxers blaze the trail by finding and committing to the most effective builds, and many players follow their leads.

Not all though. I tend towards carrion and soldier gear, but I mostly play solo or with my wife so I don’t feel any pressure to conform to others’ standards.

To be fair you are talking about Champons here (or what was once a Champion) and a group event at that. These are meant to be killed by many people. Added to that we are talking about pre-condition buffing as well as the group event scaling to appropriate levels for the amount of players doing it. I was mainly speaking of just the run of the mill trash mobs, you could even add vets into there as well. So tbh I don’t think I have it backwards at all.

Also since Anet has the data and can see and has seen for some time now that almost everyone ( I would assume less than 5-10% who don’t, including myself for the most part of my time here on 7 out of 11-ish chars) does run zerk and even now zerk type cond builds I would say they adapt to add challenges for that even with the trash mobs and thus we get even more larger HP pools or other tricks that take us longer to kill them even with said zerk/high cond gear. Take a look at the regular HOT trash mobs for example. They can be tough for a lot of people. And what does this do for those in any other gear? Takes them longer to kill again, even more so, so again we get back to the same problem and more people considering to go the Zerk/High cond meta because it now takes them even longer to kill the mobs that are being created specifically for the zerk/cond meta. It will never end……

Paulytnz.7619:

Also since Anet has the data and can see and has seen for some time now that almost everyone ( I would assume less than 5-10% who don’t, including myself for the most part of my time here on 7 out of 11-ish chars) does run zerk and even now zerk type cond builds ……

Go ahead and assume but again, it’s more like the other way around. Most players don’t read the forums and don’t even know what the different gear prefixes mean. Mostly they probably gear in level/story rewards unless they get something as a drop that looks cooler.

There are millions of GW2 accounts, and a few hundred thousand of them are active accounts. Most log in for a few hours a month. Hardcore players are a lot less common than most forum warriors believe. The average player does not know, or care, about these kinds of things.

Paulytnz.7619:

Also since Anet has the data and can see and has seen for some time now that almost everyone ( I would assume less than 5-10% who don’t, including myself for the most part of my time here on 7 out of 11-ish chars) does run zerk and even now zerk type cond builds I would say they adapt to add challenges for that even with the trash mobs and thus we get even more larger HP pools or other tricks that take us longer to kill them even with said zerk/high cond gear.

Is it possible that your assumption is way off, and that they’re not balancing everything strictly around pure DPS gear? I think you’re mixing your “they have metrics” knowledge with your assumption (“90-95% of people run zerker”) and coming up with a pretty major conclusion based on those two together.

I mean, I guess it’s possible, but the vicious cycle you’re describing in detail hinges on some large assumptions.

Ashen.2907:

Ryou.2398:

Ashen.2907:

Ryou.2398:

sI have never seen an mmorpg with so many people who prefer to cheese through things doing the same exact tactics over and over.

Odd, that describes pretty much every trinity game I’ve seen, to me.

It doesnt get cheesier, to me, than mobs ignoring the dangerous characters to focus on the tough guy throwing yo mamma jokes, or whatever constitutes a taunt.

Then you didnt play much of those games, again people have no clue what they are talking about when they say trinity when most mmorpgs cover far more roles and classes then the trinity and those classes that tank, heal, or dps can do allot more things then just that. City of heroes for example we will talk about the defender archtypes, they where a support class however not all of them supported the same, for example if you want dark/dark defender you could cc with tentacles, while leaching life to heal your group and dpsing them at the same time, or a you may go fire/ice tanker where you have a can tank with a bit more dps from using fire with the defensives of ice, or an illusion controller where you can heal, crowd control, dps, and offer utility at the same time like blinds, my point is while you have some key roles most mmorpgs offer more then just those roles within those classes you can spec for other things to make them even more unique and diverse.

And you can do much (and perhaps more) of that with GW2 builds as well.

Ryou.2398:

I dont know what mmorpg you played where all they had was 3 roles from 3 different classes, im guessing many here havent played many mmorpgs to begin with. Even wow had diverse classes.

I didn’t say anything about class diversity. I didn’t claim to have played MMOs where all they had was 3 roles from 3 different classes. I did respond to your comment about cheesing content with repetitive tactics by pointing out that it described trinity play style to me. You mention WoW. How many major fights in WoW did not involve having one, or more, characters holding aggro while one or more characters healed, while more characters DPSed the foe?

I mentioned wow for other examples along with other mmorpgs but your forgetting fhe other roles in wow, you also had cc, debuffing like from a warlock and more.
I

The “just do damage” meta will change when other roles are greatly improved.

Paulytnz.7619:

I think part of the problem is Anet balances the game around zerk gear. Or at least I think they do maybe? Look at the hp pools of even just trash mobs. It can take a while to kill them in PVT gear for example depending on the class I would have to add. Or perhaps those HP pools are so large because they expect more than 1 person to attack and kill a creature.

They are just overly fond of HP sponges. Mordremoth would be an example of this. Did that in berserker gear. It still had plenty of HP long after the fight stopped providing much interest. Just a consequence of people who think long fight equals difficult fight.

Serophous.9085:

Redenaz.8631:

I think it’s worth noting that not every gear has to be part of the meta to be used. Zerk might be ideal for people who know the encounters, know how to use evasive skills, and know when to dodge, but I’ve spent enough time helping friends up off the floor that I hesitate to make them even more glassy. The boss might get more swings in because we’re not killing it so quickly, but one-hit-ko’s aren’t the only thing that kill casual players.

Guaranteed 1 hit KOs also make defensive stats completely worthless.

To players really concerned about meta gear, very little of the open world is “hard,” but there are plenty of players who struggle with Orr, and take a trip through Verdant Brink at night with some serious gravitas.

That’s how I view gear in open world and dungeons.

New to the game? Not very good at using CDs or dodging? Use gear for more defense or healing.

Feel better adjusted? Take more of a risk and start going glass cannon

I just have some characters that I can play without having to spend as much effort/concentration.

Palador.2170:

Now, as I said that’s not something I want them to put into GW2. Too much of the game is built with the assumption of the fast regen, and would possibly need rebalanced. BUT, it got me thinking… You don’t drop out of combat as long as you have a debuff on you, so debuffs keep you from getting your fast regen. What if there was a dungeon, raid, or even zone that gave you a constant debuff that served to keep that regen from kicking in? Needing to heal between fights would, like in CoH, suddenly become an issue. Saving your personal heal would be like saving the Rest power, you don’t want to be stuck waiting for it to recharge all the time, right?

If they put such an area into the game, do you think people would be willing to try it?

That is already in the game. Not only does it prevent regen it even applies a degen but the behavior does not progress as you describe.

Khisanth.2948:

That is already in the game. Not only does it prevent regen it even applies a degen but the behavior does not progress as you describe.

Oh? Where is this?

Khisanth.2948:

Redenaz.8631:

I think it’s worth noting that not every gear has to be part of the meta to be used. Zerk might be ideal for people who know the encounters, know how to use evasive skills, and know when to dodge, but I’ve spent enough time helping friends up off the floor that I hesitate to make them even more glassy. The boss might get more swings in because we’re not killing it so quickly, but one-hit-ko’s aren’t the only thing that kill casual players.

Guaranteed 1 hit KOs also make defensive stats completely worthless.

If the boss has a serious, dodge-or-die attack, I probably shouldn’t tank it, no matter how much toughness I have. The fact that I still need to dodge occasionally doesn’t mean toughness isn’t useful the other 95% of the time.

My point was that the mere existence of one-hit-KOs doesn’t make defensive stats completely worthless. If the game were wall-to-wall one-hit-KOs even in toughness gear, it would be a bad situation, but that’s not the case, at least in my experience.

tolunart.2095:

Paulytnz.7619:

Also since Anet has the data and can see and has seen for some time now that almost everyone ( I would assume less than 5-10% who don’t, including myself for the most part of my time here on 7 out of 11-ish chars) does run zerk and even now zerk type cond builds ……

Go ahead and assume but again, it’s more like the other way around. Most players don’t read the forums and don’t even know what the different gear prefixes mean. Mostly they probably gear in level/story rewards unless they get something as a drop that looks cooler.

There are millions of GW2 accounts, and a few hundred thousand of them are active accounts. Most log in for a few hours a month. Hardcore players are a lot less common than most forum warriors believe. The average player does not know, or care, about these kinds of things.

Players ask in game for info all the time as well as the ideal builds to go and gear. I see it all the time and you can geuess what is pretty much answered all the time. Not only that they also see other players killing faster than them if they are in anything besides the fast killing gear and will straight out ask them how they are killing faster. People are not totally blind or stupid as you may be trying to make out they are.

Look I’m not here saying which armour should be taken by anyone. All I am saying is that from my experience after running 11 chars through world complete and taking the time on every one of those to do every event that I came across while doing so. That the zerker (and prob too now condi power builds) are just straight up faster for killing the trash mobs/vets and for some classes in anything else it can get very boring very fast. Not to mention if it is indeed a stronger monster the longer the fight drags on the more likely you will be downed even in more defensive gear.

Believe me it has taken myself a LONG time to even convert from PVT to the other. Even now my main still uses PVT and he will probably be the last to convert.

I am all for people using other gear, I wish they would but I think they need to find ways to make those stats/types more attractive to the player base. I don’t have any ideas how they could do this atm or other wise I would offer them up.