Guild Wars 2

It’s a serious question.

When are you allowed to kick a person?
Or when aren’t you?

Right now I honestly have no clue.

Being ‘’bad mannered’’ isn’t exactly an offense, but when does being bad mannered turn into griefing?

this is why this solution will not work anet must make it take more kicks to remove someone or make it so the party leader cant be kicked (they made it so it belongs to them, its an issue of autonomy)

If I percieve a party member as any of the below listed things, that person is going to get kicked:

*rude
*slacker
*uncooperative

If there’s a problem, I’d say that you should bring it up in party chat first. If it doesn’t get solved, then it’s time to consider kicking.

If it’s just two people talking between themselves (or not at all) that suddenly kick a person, then I’d say there’s a problem. And I’m pretty sure the devs can go back and look at recent chat logs if they know who they’re looking for.

IceVyper.6810:

If I percieve a party member as any of the below listed things, that person is going to get kicked:

*rude
*slacker
*uncooperative

so your perception is flawless and should be trusted at all times?

Palador.2170:

If there’s a problem, I’d say that you should bring it up in party chat first. If it doesn’t get solved, then it’s time to consider kicking.

If it’s just two people talking between themselves (or not at all) that suddenly kick a person, then I’d say there’s a problem. And I’m pretty sure the devs can go back and look at recent chat logs if they know who they’re looking for.

I’m not sure if developers want to play babysitter…

Duke Nukem.6783:

IceVyper.6810:

If I percieve a party member as any of the below listed things, that person is going to get kicked:

*rude
*slacker
*uncooperative

so your perception is flawless and should be trusted at all times?

If it is my party – yes. I have certain requirements for people that I play with, and if they are not met, that party member has to go. I will not meddle in what happens in outside parties.

That’s different from player to player.

• Some people want to speed clear so they’ll kick Rangers, Mesmers, Necromancers just for playing that class.
• Others don’t mind the class but if one guy is such a bad player that he is a deadweight to the others they’ll kick him.
• Sometimes people are kicked for misbehaviour or offencive language.
• If a LFG sais “lf ele” and a Guard joines.

Depending on the party that are reasons for kicking. IMO not bannable.

Bannable should be:

• Kicking players to invite friends/guildies
• kicking players randomly
• …

the problem is that you won’t ever be able to proofe them that they didn’t kick for the reasons that are ok!

A bad player could report his grp for kicking him telling ANet “they did it without reason”

As you see, it’s a kittene to answer.

eekzie.5640:

Palador.2170:

If there’s a problem, I’d say that you should bring it up in party chat first. If it doesn’t get solved, then it’s time to consider kicking.

If it’s just two people talking between themselves (or not at all) that suddenly kick a person, then I’d say there’s a problem. And I’m pretty sure the devs can go back and look at recent chat logs if they know who they’re looking for.

I’m not sure if developers want to play babysitter…

Sadly, this is where we come to dealing with GMs instead of the devs. And yes, the GMs are paid to deal with things like this.

There pretty much isn’t a line. You could kick someone because you don’t like the way they look, and as long as you had another person agree with you, they’re out. They can then report you, but for what? Using an in-game system in the way it is intended to be used? How would the moderators be able to distinguish that scenario from one in which the kick was warranted? If they can’t reliably do that, they will have to be reluctant to issue punishment. It reeks of futility.

Palador.2170:

eekzie.5640:

Palador.2170:

If there’s a problem, I’d say that you should bring it up in party chat first. If it doesn’t get solved, then it’s time to consider kicking.

If it’s just two people talking between themselves (or not at all) that suddenly kick a person, then I’d say there’s a problem. And I’m pretty sure the devs can go back and look at recent chat logs if they know who they’re looking for.

I’m not sure if developers want to play babysitter…

Sadly, this is where we come to dealing with GMs instead of the devs. And yes, the GMs are paid to deal with things like this.

What I was trying to say that right now I hope GM’s are mostly dealing with serious offenders. And now this would create so many situations where people who got kicked reported someone, felt like they didn’t deserve it and so on and so forth.
I don’t think it’s a healthy situation.

eekzie.5640:

What I was trying to say that right now I hope GM’s are mostly dealing with serious offenders. And now this would create so many situations where people who got kicked reported someone, felt like they didn’t deserve it and so on and so forth.
I don’t think it’s a healthy situation.

I’ll agree with you there.

That’s part of the reason why I suggest that, if there is a problem, it be brought up in party chat first and the person asked to fix it. It won’t take a GM long to find that in a chat log, read what was said and how it was replied to, and go from there.

Basically, bringing up a problem in party chat and trying to solve it before an honest kick is a CYA precaution that will help the GMs, too.

Me Games Ma.8426:

That’s different from player to player.

• Some people want to speed clear so they’ll kick Rangers, Mesmers, Necromancers just for playing that class.
• Others don’t mind the class but if one guy is such a bad player that he is a deadweight to the others they’ll kick him.
• Sometimes people are kicked for misbehaviour or offencive language.
• If a LFG sais “lf ele” and a Guard joines.

Depending on the party that are reasons for kicking. IMO not bannable.

Bannable should be:

• Kicking players to invite friends/guildies
• kicking players randomly
• …

the problem is that you won’t ever be able to proofe them that they didn’t kick for the reasons that are ok!

A bad player could report his grp for kicking him telling ANet “they did it without reason”

As you see, it’s a kittene to answer.

• Kicking people before you start doing anything is not really an issue as you’re not harming people
• Can I just justify kicking anyone then? Well he was slacking for a moment there!
• Completely agree with you on that one, don’t think anyone disagrees that that’s a valid reason to kick a player.
• Same as #1, not an issue.

Bannable?

• Why can’t I kick someone for a friend to join? I’d rather play with my friends. The guy only wasted 5 minutes anyway.
• Well I didn’t like him… why shouldn’t i be able to kick him?

I know I’m overreacting a little here but I’m just extremely worried about the outburst that will come on the forum.

Join a guild, play with friends, profit. That’s my take on it.

On topic: I almost never kick someone unless they’re rude or griefing. Even if they’re “bad” I’ll do my best to help them through a dungeon, as long as I see them trying. But if they’re sitting there doing nothing at all, that I’d consider griefing. As long as they’re trying I’ll not kick someone.

Vayne.8563:

Join a guild, play with friends, profit. That’s my take on it.

On topic: I almost never kick someone unless they’re rude or griefing. Even if they’re “bad” I’ll do my best to help them through a dungeon, as long as I see them trying. But if they’re sitting there doing nothing at all, that I’d consider griefing. As long as they’re trying I’ll not kick someone.

I’m normally very friendly (I have my off days, I’ll admit), but I’m not really asking to see what is ‘good behaviour’. I’m really curious where Anet draws the line…
There’s just absolutely nothing you can personally do to not get kicked now.

Policing kicks doesn’t work. It would take far too many resources to truly investigate from a 3rd party point of view, and in some cases, it’s not even possible to see the full picture. For example, if you kicked someone for being abusive on TeamSpeak/etc, ArenaNet would never know and you could never prove that reason (even if you had it recorded). You would have to purposely wait until there was a record of them doing something in-game to be truly safe (chat or combat logs).

If you kick someone without cause, nothing will happen. If however you kick many people within a certain time span and each one reported you, you will probably be investigated. They may even automatically issue a ban after a certain amount of unique reports with similar reasons.

Realistically, the best ArenaNet can do is try to mitigate unjust kicks by limiting how often and when you are able to initiate one.

IceVyper.6810:

Duke Nukem.6783:

IceVyper.6810:

If I percieve a party member as any of the below listed things, that person is going to get kicked:

*rude
*slacker
*uncooperative

so your perception is flawless and should be trusted at all times?

If it is my party – yes. I have certain requirements for people that I play with, and if they are not met, that party member has to go. I will not meddle in what happens in outside parties.

oh so you aggree with the autonomy of the party owner? and that the party owner should be unkickable?

Duke Nukem.6783:

IceVyper.6810:

Duke Nukem.6783:

IceVyper.6810:

If I percieve a party member as any of the below listed things, that person is going to get kicked:

*rude
*slacker
*uncooperative

so your perception is flawless and should be trusted at all times?

If it is my party – yes. I have certain requirements for people that I play with, and if they are not met, that party member has to go. I will not meddle in what happens in outside parties.

oh so you aggree with the autonomy of the party owner? and that the party owner should be unkickable?

I believe that the party creator should be a party leader as well, and that person sets the rules for the instance. That person should be unkickable.

If the leader has specified that the party is going to speedrun a dungeon, and gets joined by obviously unexperienced people, that are hindering that run, it is the leader’s right to kick them.

IceVyper.6810:

Duke Nukem.6783:

IceVyper.6810:

Duke Nukem.6783:

IceVyper.6810:

If I percieve a party member as any of the below listed things, that person is going to get kicked:

*rude
*slacker
*uncooperative

so your perception is flawless and should be trusted at all times?

If it is my party – yes. I have certain requirements for people that I play with, and if they are not met, that party member has to go. I will not meddle in what happens in outside parties.

oh so you aggree with the autonomy of the party owner? and that the party owner should be unkickable?

I believe that the party creator should be a party leader as well, and that person sets the rules for the instance. That person should be unkickable.

If the leader has specified that the party is going to speedrun a dungeon, and gets joined by obviously unexperienced people, that are hindering that run, it is the leader’s right to kick them.

then i 100% aggree with you!

Healix.5819:

Policing kicks doesn’t work. It would take far too many resources to truly investigate from a 3rd party point of view, and in some cases, it’s not even possible to see the full picture. For example, if you kicked someone for being abusive on TeamSpeak/etc, ArenaNet would never know and you could never prove that reason (even if you had it recorded). You would have to purposely wait until there was a record of them doing something in-game to be truly safe (chat or combat logs).

If you kick someone without cause, nothing will happen. If however you kick many people within a certain time span and each one reported you, you will probably be investigated. They may even automatically issue a ban after a certain amount of unique reports with similar reasons.

Realistically, the best ArenaNet can do is try to mitigate unjust kicks by limiting how often and when you are able to initiate one.

I made an LFG a couple days ago.

I was trying to find an organised map for doing Dry Top.
I was joined by dozens (and I mean literally over 24 people) who joined me for no reason and I had to kick them all.

I don’t think your solution is more than a band-aid to a wound Anet has inflicted upon themselves.

eekzie.5640:

Healix.5819:

Policing kicks doesn’t work. It would take far too many resources to truly investigate from a 3rd party point of view, and in some cases, it’s not even possible to see the full picture. For example, if you kicked someone for being abusive on TeamSpeak/etc, ArenaNet would never know and you could never prove that reason (even if you had it recorded). You would have to purposely wait until there was a record of them doing something in-game to be truly safe (chat or combat logs).

If you kick someone without cause, nothing will happen. If however you kick many people within a certain time span and each one reported you, you will probably be investigated. They may even automatically issue a ban after a certain amount of unique reports with similar reasons.

Realistically, the best ArenaNet can do is try to mitigate unjust kicks by limiting how often and when you are able to initiate one.

I made an LFG a couple days ago.

I was trying to find an organised map for doing Dry Top.
I was joined by dozens (and I mean literally over 24 people) who joined me for no reason and I had to kick them all.

I don’t think your solution is more than a band-aid to a wound Anet has inflicted upon themselves.

the only solution is to make the original party leader unkickable

Duke Nukem.6783:

eekzie.5640:

Healix.5819:

Policing kicks doesn’t work. It would take far too many resources to truly investigate from a 3rd party point of view, and in some cases, it’s not even possible to see the full picture. For example, if you kicked someone for being abusive on TeamSpeak/etc, ArenaNet would never know and you could never prove that reason (even if you had it recorded). You would have to purposely wait until there was a record of them doing something in-game to be truly safe (chat or combat logs).

If you kick someone without cause, nothing will happen. If however you kick many people within a certain time span and each one reported you, you will probably be investigated. They may even automatically issue a ban after a certain amount of unique reports with similar reasons.

Realistically, the best ArenaNet can do is try to mitigate unjust kicks by limiting how often and when you are able to initiate one.

I made an LFG a couple days ago.

I was trying to find an organised map for doing Dry Top.
I was joined by dozens (and I mean literally over 24 people) who joined me for no reason and I had to kick them all.

I don’t think your solution is more than a band-aid to a wound Anet has inflicted upon themselves.

the only solution is to make the original party leader unkickable

And Dry Top isn’t a dungeon and the original party leader wasn’t being kicked. Kicking in Dry Top does nothing to the kicked person’s progress. Just affects their experience earned and chances at loot.

Dungeon instance creator should not be immune from kicks. Here’s why:

Lazy people who want to be carried can make a group and make it look like it’s for speed runners only. Does not state that he wants to be carried or make it known that he’s a lazy bum looking to be carried (or she). He makes a decent effort for the first boss (get some time equity into the group), then slacks off. Are the speedrunners supposed to just grin and bear it for the rest of the dungeon?

Nope. They should have every right to kick the lazy person who lied to them about the intention of the group.

Nor should groups have to suffer through a drunk person on a casual run who started off sober and started the dungeon but decided drinking enough beer to get drunk was a wise decision.

And after this change there will likely be nothing to note who started the dungeon anymore (and I doubt there’s anything that denotes party leader in the code), so it may not be possible to have one person out of a party be unkickable.

They are working on ways to limit the effect of trolls and griefers, but it will likely take some time. They have to figure out a code to store votes to increase from 2 to 3. They’re working on a way to make it easier to report those who are abusing the kick system.

Your system would likely require them to add more code as well for an issue that’s probably not as common overall as you think based on your own experiences.

If you’ve been kicked as a leader 100 times out of 150 times for reasons not related to being a jerk or breaking rules, it seems like a lot. But if every kick of a dungeon creator for non jerk or rule breaking issues is only 500 out of 100,000, that’s not a lot. That’s 0.5% of dungeon creators being kicked for pointless reasons.

I say non jerk or rule breaking because:

1. No one should be forced to listen to a guy go off on someone in a rude manner just because he’s the dungeon leader and it’s too far into the dungeon to leave without making it a waste of time.

2. No one should be at the mercy of a leader who decides he wants to exploit the game. The exploiter should always be the one that has to lose progress. Not the ones who wanted to do the dungeon legit.

I’m not saying you fall into category 1 or 2, but you can’t honestly tell me that jerks and exploiters as dungeon leaders should be immune from being kicked?

In other mmos I played parties were kind of a dictatorship: The party leader decided upon invites and kicks and could even determine how loot was distributed (no issue in GW2). That worked very well. If you don’t like how the party leader managed his party: go. After all you were invited and did accept it knowing who was “calling the shots”. And when the party leader left a new party leader was determined by the game (in my mmos: the player who joined the party earliest).

The GW2 system seems more friendly but only in GW2 I encountered serious problems with party trolls and kicks (only as spectator, mind, afair I was never kicked).

Kicking is a system added for players’ convenience. It is also extremely open to abuse. This system needs to be redesigned to limit the abuses, or it should be removed.

Seera.5916:

And Dry Top isn’t a dungeon and the original party leader wasn’t being kicked. Kicking in Dry Top does nothing to the kicked person’s progress. Just affects their experience earned and chances at loot.

Dungeon instance creator should not be immune from kicks. Here’s why:

Lazy people who want to be carried can make a group and make it look like it’s for speed runners only. Does not state that he wants to be carried or make it known that he’s a lazy bum looking to be carried (or she). He makes a decent effort for the first boss (get some time equity into the group), then slacks off. Are the speedrunners supposed to just grin and bear it for the rest of the dungeon?

Nope. They should have every right to kick the lazy person who lied to them about the intention of the group.

Nor should groups have to suffer through a drunk person on a casual run who started off sober and started the dungeon but decided drinking enough beer to get drunk was a wise decision.

And after this change there will likely be nothing to note who started the dungeon anymore (and I doubt there’s anything that denotes party leader in the code), so it may not be possible to have one person out of a party be unkickable.

They are working on ways to limit the effect of trolls and griefers, but it will likely take some time. They have to figure out a code to store votes to increase from 2 to 3. They’re working on a way to make it easier to report those who are abusing the kick system.

Your system would likely require them to add more code as well for an issue that’s probably not as common overall as you think based on your own experiences.

If you’ve been kicked as a leader 100 times out of 150 times for reasons not related to being a jerk or breaking rules, it seems like a lot. But if every kick of a dungeon creator for non jerk or rule breaking issues is only 500 out of 100,000, that’s not a lot. That’s 0.5% of dungeon creators being kicked for pointless reasons.

I say non jerk or rule breaking because:

1. No one should be forced to listen to a guy go off on someone in a rude manner just because he’s the dungeon leader and it’s too far into the dungeon to leave without making it a waste of time.

2. No one should be at the mercy of a leader who decides he wants to exploit the game. The exploiter should always be the one that has to lose progress. Not the ones who wanted to do the dungeon legit.

I’m not saying you fall into category 1 or 2, but you can’t honestly tell me that jerks and exploiters as dungeon leaders should be immune from being kicked?

I guess I am viewing this only from my point of view, where me or a friend are always party leaders and thus make sure that the party follows our rules. Now, of course, none of us will abuse that power, slack intentionally etc and that is why I haven’t thought much about the other side of the issue.

And now that I have given it some thought, it is a small inconvenience that I am willing to live with. Mainly because I intend to not letting strangers be party leaders.

And if you are a speed runner, why do you expose yourself for such risks? Why do you accept someone else to open the instance for you? And why do you rely on the LFG to find like minded people for such runs, when the most viable way is to join a speed running guild.

I find it very funny that someone can get severly drunk in the course of a dungeon path. I would like to see that

Anyway, most dungeon paths don’t really need 5 people do be finished, so if you happen to get stuck with a douchy leader and choose to stay, you still get your rewards in the end, block and report the person and move on. On the other hand, if you started the instance, did all that was expected of you, but get kicked before the end, out of griefing, then you just wasted your time as you are left without rewards.

Basically, what we have here, is having to choose between the lesser of two evils: being stuck with a jerk or loosing all progress alltogether.

IceVyper.6810:

Seera.5916:

And Dry Top isn’t a dungeon and the original party leader wasn’t being kicked. Kicking in Dry Top does nothing to the kicked person’s progress. Just affects their experience earned and chances at loot.

Dungeon instance creator should not be immune from kicks. Here’s why:

Lazy people who want to be carried can make a group and make it look like it’s for speed runners only. Does not state that he wants to be carried or make it known that he’s a lazy bum looking to be carried (or she). He makes a decent effort for the first boss (get some time equity into the group), then slacks off. Are the speedrunners supposed to just grin and bear it for the rest of the dungeon?

Nope. They should have every right to kick the lazy person who lied to them about the intention of the group.

Nor should groups have to suffer through a drunk person on a casual run who started off sober and started the dungeon but decided drinking enough beer to get drunk was a wise decision.

And after this change there will likely be nothing to note who started the dungeon anymore (and I doubt there’s anything that denotes party leader in the code), so it may not be possible to have one person out of a party be unkickable.

They are working on ways to limit the effect of trolls and griefers, but it will likely take some time. They have to figure out a code to store votes to increase from 2 to 3. They’re working on a way to make it easier to report those who are abusing the kick system.

Your system would likely require them to add more code as well for an issue that’s probably not as common overall as you think based on your own experiences.

If you’ve been kicked as a leader 100 times out of 150 times for reasons not related to being a jerk or breaking rules, it seems like a lot. But if every kick of a dungeon creator for non jerk or rule breaking issues is only 500 out of 100,000, that’s not a lot. That’s 0.5% of dungeon creators being kicked for pointless reasons.

I say non jerk or rule breaking because:

1. No one should be forced to listen to a guy go off on someone in a rude manner just because he’s the dungeon leader and it’s too far into the dungeon to leave without making it a waste of time.

2. No one should be at the mercy of a leader who decides he wants to exploit the game. The exploiter should always be the one that has to lose progress. Not the ones who wanted to do the dungeon legit.

I’m not saying you fall into category 1 or 2, but you can’t honestly tell me that jerks and exploiters as dungeon leaders should be immune from being kicked?

I guess I am viewing this only from my point of view, where me or a friend are always party leaders and thus make sure that the party follows our rules. Now, of course, none of us will abuse that power, slack intentionally etc and that is why I haven’t thought much about the other side of the issue.

And now that I have given it some thought, it is a small inconvenience that I am willing to live with. Mainly because I intend to not letting strangers be party leaders.

And if you are a speed runner, why do you expose yourself for such risks? Why do you accept someone else to open the instance for you? And why do you rely on the LFG to find like minded people for such runs, when the most viable way is to join a speed running guild.

I find it very funny that someone can get severly drunk in the course of a dungeon path. I would like to see that

Anyway, most dungeon paths don’t really need 5 people do be finished, so if you happen to get stuck with a douchy leader and choose to stay, you still get your rewards in the end, block and report the person and move on. On the other hand, if you started the instance, did all that was expected of you, but get kicked before the end, out of griefing, then you just wasted your time as you are left without rewards.

Basically, what we have here, is having to choose between the lesser of two evils: being stuck with a jerk or loosing all progress alltogether.

if you made the group its your rules, it doesnt matter if those rules r unethical or amoral bcuz people can leave, if they dont wana carry you, if they feel better than you, then they joined the wrong party, they are overqualified for the party, but u cant be too bad a player for your own party! the party starter is the standard for which the party is judged and nobody else.

It’s probably ok to kick someone if they would kick you if the situation was reversed.

Duke Nukem.6783:

if you made the group its your rules, it doesnt matter if those rules r unethical or amoral bcuz people can leave, if they dont wana carry you, if they feel better than you, then they joined the wrong party, they are overqualified for the party, but u cant be too bad a player for your own party! the party starter is the standard for which the party is judged and nobody else.

So I’m just supposed to sit back and let a party leader who wants to exploit the boss Fractal (Mai Trin, etc) and not kick them and invite in someone who won’t exploit?! When no one else but the party leader wants to exploit? And he made no notice at the beginning of the run that he was an exploiter? Should I have to give up an hour and a half of time just because I don’t want to profit from an exploit? Why should the exploiter get to profit and not me? When he’s the one breaking the rules?

Or someone who is really crossing a line on the rudeness in chat.

Party leaders shouldn’t be immune from kicking due to the few bad apples.

When you join a PUG group know in advance that you can’t expect flawless behavior, a perfect run and friendly people. If you have a problem with that, run dungeons only with a guild or people you’re friends with. If you think you’re special and should be able to run a dungeon how ever/when ever you like, create your own group and be as specific as you wish. If people disobey your specifications you’re entitled to kick them. Kicking someone after the dungeon is nearly completed in order for a friend or guild mate to join is in incredibly poor taste. That person made the effort to run the dungeon with you and the rest of the group only to be replaced by someone who made no effort. If you do it I think you are deserving of any consequences that may follow you.

Bottom line is that PUG groups are just that, pick up groups. They are composed of a random assortment of people that are not guaranteed to be good players or good people. Guild groups, assuming you are familiar with those that are in your party, are much more likely to be co-operative but are still just as capable of being difficult. Set a positive morale for the group by saying hello and being friendly and chances of anyone, including yourself, becoming upset and hostile will be reduced dramatically.

Stooperdale.3560:

It’s probably ok to kick someone if they would kick you if the situation was reversed.

do unto others before they do unto you is not really how i want dungeons to run…..

WoW’s kicking has worked perfectly. four people kick the offending player. This takes care of most of the problems in pugs. rarely if ever are two players in the lfg system actually friends and one is a troll causing trouble in a dungeon setting. It’s simple really.