When did addons become permissible?

When did addons become permissible?

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Posted by: Faelun.7563

Faelun.7563

One of my favourite parts of Gw2 was that addons and dps meters we not permissible in this game. I’ve recently returned from a year and a half hiatus from GW2 and every time I join a group now i’m told i’m not doing ‘max dps’ and then I get kicked. My issue is, we’re not doing raids, we’re doing basic dungeons and fractals which I was clearing with 0 issue long before I took a break. This new attitude that has come with DPS meters is utterly toxic and despicable. The fact that I’ve been kicked, and watched others get kicked, in the middle of runs or boss fights as well is just not okay. There’s also no appropriate report option for this either.

It was always my understanding that using addons was a bannable offence or at least in a serious grey area. Why would I want to risk my account just to find out what my dps is? What changed? When did this happen? and what are the clear cut rules about which of these rogue programs am I allowed to install so I can keep up and not get kicked from groups?

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Well that 10 seconds extra they have to do a dungeon run in because you’re not doing max damage seriously matters.

/s

It’s legal if they only pull combat data or something along those lines. I can’t remember the dev’s exact phrasing. If they claim to see your equipment, build, etc then report them.

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Posted by: Mea.5491

Mea.5491

I agree, I will never understand why they allowed this crap. This is why I only run open world content and solo story, I don’t want to deal with toxic elitists in instances. I play for fun, not for dps.

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Posted by: Endless Soul.5178

Endless Soul.5178

Players demanded raids, now we have raids.
Players demanded DPS meters, now we have DPS meters.
Players demanded mounts, now we have mounts.
and so on, and so on.

Asura characters: Zerina | Myndee | Rissa | Jaxxi | Feyyt | Bekka | Sixx | Akee | Tylee | Nuumy
| Claara
Your skin will wrinkle and your youth will fade, but your soul is endless.

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Posted by: Mea.5491

Mea.5491

Players demanded raids, now we have raids.
Players demanded DPS meters, now we have DPS meters.
Players demanded mounts, now we have mounts.
and so on, and so on.

Players demand no buttcapes… We still get buttcapes…

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Posted by: Endless Soul.5178

Endless Soul.5178

Players demanded raids, now we have raids.
Players demanded DPS meters, now we have DPS meters.
Players demanded mounts, now we have mounts.
and so on, and so on.

Players demand no buttcapes… We still get buttcapes…

Give it time…

Asura characters: Zerina | Myndee | Rissa | Jaxxi | Feyyt | Bekka | Sixx | Akee | Tylee | Nuumy
| Claara
Your skin will wrinkle and your youth will fade, but your soul is endless.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

If they claim to know your DPS or gear, report with extreme prejudice.
Otherwise, it is legal, assuming the overlay/add-on conforms to ANet’s standards. It’s still really fuzzy territory. Even having HP bars over the characters was considered non-compliant.

But it’s still a Wild West of independent UI tools, so I’m not intending to risk my account.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Players demanded raids, now we have raids.
Players demanded DPS meters, now we have DPS meters.
Players demanded mounts, now we have mounts.
and so on, and so on.

I’m seeing this a lot on the mounts issue. I’ve known for years they were working on mounts (I thought it was for a later base game release, not an expansion) thanks to a friend who got a tour of ANet HQ and saw them being worked on. I was sworn to silence and I stuck to that. But this isn’t a sudden caving, this was a long term design plan that they stayed very silent on through all the Mount Thread debates.

Also they didn’t design DPS meters other than the raid training golems that only work in a dedicated instance with others who choose to participate, third party people figured out ways to implement the meters without violating the ToS in terms of game software manipulation. While I loathe DPS meters and the pressure they bring and the elitism they facilitate, I see the need for them in a raid context where every iota matters to success. Should there be raids? Well, raiding seems to make a fair number of players happy and invested in the game, so while I dislike some of the implementation (lots of flavor lore dialogue and story inside raids, legendary armor only available via raids) I don’t think raids as a whole have damaged the game.

OP: addons aren’t really permissible, as I understand it what you are seeing is external programs that overlay but do not modify the game itself. I considered looking into some of the Overwulf applications but read that they could cause some nasty glitches and decided to forego the experiment. I’ve done just fine sans mods (whereas I find ESO nearly unplayable without my QoL mods). I just hop to an external timer or the wiki when I need extra info. So don’t give up on the game, the existence of pseudo mods isn’t going to impact you.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Overlays have always been permissible. This includes things like TACO and GW2 Timer’s overlay and Overwolf. They don’t directly interact with the game, but read from the game’s “echolocation” API (that’s what enables VoIP apps like Mumble to identify your location).

Recently, partly due to demand… partly due to the fact that so many people were using them anyhow… and partly due because it was easier than forbidding them, ANet has allowed the use of DPS meters under some strict guidelines. The short version is: DPS meters are restricted to using information otherwise available on via your UI or the API. So that covers your own DPS, buffs, and imputing those things for other players in your party/squad (since they can be ‘seen’ in the UI).

There’s never going to be an official list of what’s okay because ANet can’t spend the time vetting each version of each app. (Hard enough to do that for their own app.)

As it turns out, the (arguably) most popular of DPS meters shut down because its developer added features that violated the protocol above (I’m oversimplifying the story — ANet and the app’s dev roughly agree on that part, though). That is, we’ve seen at least one “acceptable” app become “unacceptable” over time.

There’s absolutely no need to run DPS meters for 90% of the game’s content. There are other, simpler ways to tell if you (or party members) are doing a “good enough” job. The notable exceptions are raids (and not all raiders need meters), benchmarking & theorycrafting builds (I hope everyone can see how this is useful), and speedclearing.

tl;dr

  • Overlays always been ok.
  • DPS meters recently okayed; restricted to using the game’s API and other “visible” data.
  • There’s no officially approved list and never will be.
  • Most people don’t need DPS meters most of the time. Unless you raid with certain types of players, you won’t need them … ever.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Faelun.7563

Faelun.7563

If they claim to know your DPS or gear, report with extreme prejudice.

But which option communicates this best?

none of botting, bad character name, spam, verbal abuse, selling gold, or LFG abuse really fits..

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

If they claim to know your DPS or gear, report with extreme prejudice.

But which option communicates this best?

none of botting, bad character name, spam, verbal abuse, selling gold, or LFG abuse really fits..

I wish I knew. For an issue like this, you might use LFG abuse, but also go so far as to contact Customer Support about it.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Azoqu.8917

Azoqu.8917

As it turns out, the (arguably) most popular of DPS meters shut down because its developer added features that violated the protocol above (I’m oversimplifying the story — ANet and the app’s dev roughly agree on that part, though). That is, we’ve seen at least one “acceptable” app become “unacceptable” over time.

Which is sad because it was the “nicer” of the two main DPS meters. It didn’t allow you to view party members unless they also had the meter (or 4/5 had it so you were able to read the total damage done to the boss via the % damage done). Sadly the maker decided to keep trying to push the envelop on certain issues that were a problem and some that were fine but the implementation was a problem. Health bars in 5-mans is glorious and should be available in game (used to be in game, watch very old dungeon runs on Youtube), but you could use them to see enemies through walls in PvP.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

DPS meters are allowed, and by joining a party with someone that is considered your giving consent to the other players in the group to read your DPS and act based on it. If someone else started the group and decided that you were the weak leg in DPS, it’s entirely their prerogative to remove you if they see fit. ANet will not take action on them.

People referring to a gear-check functionality are correct in that it’s disallowed and reportable. You’re better off reporting these specific users to exploits@arena.net with as much detail as possible because that means people like the game security lead can investigate non-compliant tools.

Some references from Chris Cleary, game security lead, follow. (1)(2)

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

DPS meters are allowed, and by joining a party with someone that is considered your giving consent to the other players in the group to read your DPS and act based on it. If someone else started the group and decided that you were the weak leg in DPS, it’s entirely their prerogative to remove you if they see fit. ANet will not take action on them.

That is some entitled chaff, and in the right circumstances, might be construed as LFG abuse for kicking someone who participated in a fight but cutting them off before the reward/completion. And if Support starts getting a flood of LFG Abuse reports for this, it might very well become policy.

But

If the group advertised in advance that meta or DPS meters are a part of the group, then it might be considered explicit acceptance to abide by the groups rules. Left unstated, there is no reason to assume that an innocent player is joining with kittenbags.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

That is some entitled chaff, and in the right circumstances, might be construed as LFG abuse for kicking someone who participated in a fight but cutting them off before the reward/completion. And if Support starts getting a flood of LFG Abuse reports for this, it might very well become policy.

You say this, and yet Chris Cleary has explicitly said in the past that by joining someone’s party, you implicitly authorize them to collect and monitor your DPS. A vast majority of DPS meter users—I would argue—are using it as intended by ANet and without issue for other players. You may encounter hundreds upon hundreds of players using them daily without even realizing it. Like with all things, however, a few people may push the limits of the reasonable and act in a toxic manner, but it wouldn’t be the tool’s fault; they’d find a way to be toxic regardless of access to a DPS meter. My recommendation for those who encounter such toxicity is always the same: ignore it, block them, report them, leave party, move on.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: xarallei.4279

xarallei.4279

If they claim to know your DPS or gear, report with extreme prejudice.

You mean if they claim to know your dps AND gear. Knowing your dps with a DPS Meter is perfectly legal and it’s useless trying to report it. Only if they know your build and/or gear is it an issue that you can report them for.

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Posted by: DirtyDan.4759

DirtyDan.4759

People get kicked in dungeons??? When I do dungeons with my fully ascended geared main I also gladly play with people who haven’t even reached lvl 80. As long their lvl is the minimum recommended ( ascalon explo lvl35) I say: gotta help a brother

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Posted by: Mil.3562

Mil.3562

People get kicked in dungeons??? When I do dungeons with my fully ascended geared main I also gladly play with people who haven’t even reached lvl 80. As long their lvl is the minimum recommended ( ascalon explo lvl35) I say: gotta help a brother

I agree, I will never understand why they allowed this crap. This is why I only run open world content and solo story, I don’t want to deal with toxic elitists in instances. I play for fun, not for dps.

I totally agree with both of you.

I too only play open world PVE and the story. I play the game for enjoyment and hence playing it my way and definitely not letting those those selfish elitists decide for me how I should gear up and play it their ways.

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Posted by: WARIORSCHARGEING.2637

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637

a year and a half hiatus you was gone when it all happened . and was add to the game and even tho I am not in favor with the dps add-ons . even tho the one left now is legal to use as others have point out . and I am more than ok with it long as it stays legal

their is some use full add ons tho that make the game far more better . cases in point and facts

http://gw2taco.blogspot.com/ taco works very well and is fully legal to use in the game .

another really good add on for thos of us with more than one account is this https://github.com/TheCheatsrichter/Gw2_Launchbuddy

launch buddy even helps you get the lowest ping rate servers too . as well as map load info and for so forth .

then their is sweet FX that one gives you better graphics then the games settings does https://sfx.thelazy.net/downloads/

you can also get over wolf to get that app . these apps are very use full and helpful to lot of us players.

as some one who played guild wars and still does as well as guild wars 2. truth be told I do wish we had some apps like this back when guild wars came out . they sure would have add a lot more fun to the game

no new system upgrades coming

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Posted by: Hannelore.8153

Hannelore.8153

Just make sure to always keep an eye on people using addons. The good ones are now working with ArenaNet to honor their rules, but there are still alot out that that do not care about the rules (these are what people use to make bots, etc.).

Anything that isn’t allowed basically reads the games memory, because the game keeps a large amount of data cached in memory on the client side to improve server performance (despite knowing this is a security risk). For example, your game knows everything there is to know about the players around you, like what armor they are wearing, if someone is willing to look for it.

So even though DPS meter are allowed, make sure you vet people who vet you, because this game has always had exploiters and always will.

Daisuki [SUKI] LGBT-Friendly Guild Leader | NA – Jade Quarry
I’m usually really sweet… but this an internet forum and you know how it has to be.
/i’m a lesbiab… lesbiam… less bien… GIRLS/

(edited by Hannelore.8153)

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Posted by: Faaris.8013

Faaris.8013

Fractals below T4 can be done by anyone, no need to play meta. The few dungeon runs I’ve done gave me the impression that dungeons are on the same difficulty level as T2 or T3 fractals, so they can be done by anyone too.

If anyone asks you for meta or gear ping or mentions dps, just leave the group. Exception are dungeons where the LFG clearly state those requirements (for speedruns) and you shouldn’t join them if you cannot deliver. I’ve yet to see Fractals T3 LFGs with such specific requirements though.

I’ve personally never seen anyone being kicked from any fractal for low dps and I’m doing T4 dailies and recommended ones in the other tiers almost daily. Sometimes I pug.

“every time I join a group now i’m told i’m not doing ‘max dps’ and then I get kicked.”

Can you elaborate that? How many Fractal groups have you joined, at which tier? Was the LFG stating that meta builds are required? I find it very odd that this happens to you every time you join a group. Even in T4 pugs I’ve never seen anyone being kicked for low dps, and I know for a fact that I regularly was in groups with people who deal 30% of the potential dps of their class.

If you see someone in T3 or lower caring about dps and meta, you can be sure you are dealing with a noob that tries to look like a decent player. If he was that good, he would not be in T3 but in T4, and if he decided to play T3, he would not care about these things because they don’t matter. These people think they are good, but they cannot make it to T4 or into a static group, so they seek to empower themselves by harrassing casuals.

It is possible though that you are dealing so little damage that even the most patient members are fed up and decide to not carry you. Which class are you playing? If I have a thief in the group who does 30% of my thief’s damage, I can tolerate that. But if I’m doing 10k dps and that thief is only pulling 1k, I would wonder if he even clicks the autoattack button or is using a level 60 masterwork weapon he got from the personal story. I would at least try to find out what he’s doing though before kicking.

Herleve – Ruins of Surmia

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

third party people figured out ways to implement the meters without violating the ToS in terms of game software manipulation.

Nah, based on ToS alone those meters are not permissible. It’s just Anet gave in and made a special exception to their use.

If they claim to know your DPS or gear, report with extreme prejudice.

But which option communicates this best?

none of botting, bad character name, spam, verbal abuse, selling gold, or LFG abuse really fits..

None of the above. Don’t use an inbuild report system. Mail the support.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

I’ve recently returned from a year and a half hiatus from GW2 and every time I join a group now i’m told i’m not doing ‘max dps’ and then I get kicked.

This is interesting. How many groups did you join and ALL of them kicked you for not doing max dps?

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Posted by: ShaeMtal.9473

ShaeMtal.9473

I find it odd that you get kicked from every group. Since the dps meters came, I’ve yet to see a single kick over dps, and I pretty much pug all of my fractal runs, 4-5 times a week.

I’ve seen callouts to slackers to stop slacking, sure. But in those cases it has been deserved.

Could it be that you simply after being away for so long happen to be so out of meta or your playstyle is such that every group notices it? How do you respond to people addressing your supposedly low dps? So many unknowns here, and simply blaming the meters is too simple a solution.

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

I’ve recently returned from a year and a half hiatus from GW2 and every time I join a group now i’m told i’m not doing ‘max dps’ and then I get kicked.

This is interesting. How many groups did you join and ALL of them kicked you for not doing max dps?

Every single one, I imagine. Only Fennec and Contam are ever allowed in public groups now. Haven’t you noticed?
/s