Guild Wars 2

This mostly pertains to both PvP and WvW but making a thread in each is clutter so I post this here.

As the title says when are conditions going to be seen as a problem? With the addition of burning stacks and confusion changed so DoT and on skill use damage and the high amount of stacks you can achieve with these two extreme high damaging conditions are they going to be changed?

Conditions as a whole aren’t a problem its just burning and confusion. The amount of stacks certain classes can do in a short amount of time is way too high, and nearly uncounterable even with cleanse.

I can speak for Engineer as its been my main since launch and I play Guardian as well. Mesmer I’m familiar with and have tried condition builds too.

For Engi its very easy to stack 10+ burns in as short as 2 second. And with high condition damage they’ll tick for 5000 damage per second. Even if you have a really good reaction time you will still take at least 1 or 2 ticks for 5-10000 damage for cleansing, maybe 3 ticks for certain skills with cast times (Elixir C for example). having 1 condition do this much damage is completely ridiculous! 10 stacks of burning for me on Engineer does 4700 damage a second whereas it takes bleed 37 stacks to achieve the same damage per second! that’s almost 4 times as many stacks! Sure burning is a “burst condition” but doing nearly 4 times as much damage as bleed? That’s very over-powered.

Same thing with Guardian. High amount of burning application/damage and tons of healing/block/blind/cleanse capability.

Could fix this is a couple ways:

1. Turn down scaling of burning to about 1.5x or 2x the damage per second of bleeds or,

2. Reduce the current stacks on burn applying skills in the game (Judge’s Intervention applies 3 now, make it apply 1 or 2).

As for Confusion it should go back to how it was before, only damaging the player when they use a skill and not have DoT and also the on use effect. and also reduce the damage/applications.

The Mesmer for example, the most recent OP class, has huge amounts of access to confusion after the specializations patch. For the condition builds I’ve fought mesmers who apply 10+ stacks of confusion and 6+ Torment in a couple seconds and can do it again and again with nearly no downtime. Fights with a condition mesmer is almost an impossible fight even with a high amount of cleanse just because they have such large amounts of application in short amount of time and on short cooldowns.

Not to mention the high amount of defensive abilities that are baseline with their mechanics and skills. Especially the current condition meta, even with the PU nerf is still way too defensive for how powerful the output of damage is. Stealth, constant interrupts/daze, high amounts of blind, teleports, blocks, invulnerability. And they can still deal thousands of damage in conditions while avoiding your every action.

I’m sure this hasn’t been address because of the expansion but hopefully burning and confusion and the classes who maximize them will be addressed when balancing comes after launch.

Please leave your input below I want to hear others opinions! Thanks for reading!

Burning needs to be toned down a little bit. Confusion is fine as it is.. people just don’t pay attention to it and other condi in general is fine. – finally

The stacks of confusion are still one condition. If you’re getting owned by Condis alter your build and playstyle to address it. Direct damage has been OP since launch its time the condition builds caught up.

Having said that, guardian burning needs addressing as the elementalist was. PVP is easier to balance but WvW nerfing would effect PvE so I hope that’s not touched.

Arimas.3492:

The Mesmer for example, the most recent OP class, has huge amounts of access to confusion after the specializations patch. For the condition builds I’ve fought mesmers who apply 10+ stacks of confusion and 6+ Torment in a couple seconds and can do it again and again with nearly no downtime. Fights with a condition mesmer is almost an impossible fight even with a high amount of cleanse just because they have such large amounts of application in short amount of time and on short cooldowns.

Isn’t that what mesmers do? Confusion?
Elementalists burn, freeze, and blow wind up your ……, other classes shoot arrows, hit you with swords etc.
Seems to me that you are you asking for mesmers to be removed from the game? Maybe because you need that old chesnut “learn to play against them”

Just like Mr Aidenwolf Sir has said: adjust your playstyle.
Because people like me just love to throw 10 stacks of “confuse your face in” and then just stand there and watch you beat yourself to death while I sit at my keyboard laughing and laughing at your misfortune. I mean, seriously, how hard is it to see that triple rainbow shooting out of your head every time confusion ticks?

Sorry to appear to be so blunt but that is the way it is. Get your face smashed in, learn what happened and why, then alter how you play to try and shut that nasty little mesmer down. (which being a mesmer main for 3 years, i know it is possible to put me on my a..e with a few well timed spells of your own)

P.S. It’s about time mesmers WERE able to do this, so no, they don’t need anymore nerfs, thank you.

As other have said, I agree about burning but I have never seen confusion being any problem… Atleast not the ticks, and that is what you want removed. Problem with some condi classes is that they can aply conditions after conditions and some classes or builds cant cleanse let’s say guardians burn all the time. Some classes can kill you in less than two condition ticks if you are out of condition cleanses, that is a little too fast for my taste. Same goes for Warriors Rampage and Mesmers Power builds who can kill you in even less than a second if you are not ready for it.

Nerf burning to 12%,, buff bleeding to 8%, buff torment to 10% when moving.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Nerf burning to 12%,, buff bleeding to 8%, buff torment to 10% when moving.

Nerfing burning is a no no. It’s not burning that’s the issue it’s the application of the condition namely by guardians as elementalists were just dealt with.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Nerf burning to 12%,, buff bleeding to 8%, buff torment to 10% when moving.

Reasonable suggestions, I agree although maybe not on the exact numbers.

Anet’s preview of the condition changes had bleeding, poison, and torment 20% stronger, and burning 20% weaker.

Thats what needs to be done with conditions.

As for OP, change your build. Condition damage exists and you need to prepare for it and stop asking for everything to get nerfed.

Aidenwolf.5964:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Nerf burning to 12%,, buff bleeding to 8%, buff torment to 10% when moving.

Nerfing burning is a no no. It’s not burning that’s the issue it’s the application of the condition namely by guardians as elementalists were just dealt with.

Way I see it, it’s a bit of both, burning being too powerful a condition, as it currently dead 2.5x more damage of a bleed, making it nearly impossible for other conditions builds to truly shine or overcome, and creating a false perception that Condi’s are op as heck. You’re right though that the plentiful application of burning is just ridiculous, currently on engi or guard, both of which can burst you with burns. Then go full defense to wait it out. Yes you can cleanse but then what will keep you alive for the second round? And good ones will space out their applications or apply cover conditions. Suggestions?

Aidenwolf.5964:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Nerf burning to 12%,, buff bleeding to 8%, buff torment to 10% when moving.

Nerfing burning is a no no. It’s not burning that’s the issue it’s the application of the condition namely by guardians as elementalists were just dealt with.

I agree, making some minor change to some profession that can stack too much burn is by far a better solution. The problem isn’t accross all profession and skill, but just specific one.

For bleeding, I don’t know. I like the fact that bleeding and burning feel different. Bleed can stack a lot faster, but does less damage. Simply increasing the damage of bleeding will narrow this difference. I would much rather they increase a bit the duration of bleeding so you can stack more of them. Usually, burning do around 3 times the damage of bleeding per stack, so you should be able to stack around 3 times more bleeding than burning, but it’s not really the case right now.

Confusion is fine IMO. Torment can use a little buff in term of damage. But once all of that is done, condition will probably be too much powerful. At that point, they should all be nerf a little to keep condition as a whole in line with direct damage.

Aidenwolf.5964:

[snip] PVP is easier to balance but WvW nerfing would effect PvE so I hope that’s not touched.

It would just make seance to have a different formula for WvW and PVE as conditions (especially confusion) in PVE are so under-powered compared to straight zerger builds it is ridicules.

I don’t understand. Does it mean builds specialized in condition damage can generate dps even higher than the ones focused on non-condition damage? Or does it suppose that there should be a gap between the dps from condition damage and non-condition ones and currently the gap is not wide enough?

Doug Whisper.2465:

I don’t understand. Does it mean builds specialized in condition damage can generate dps even higher than the ones focused on non-condition damage? Or does it suppose that there should be a gap between the dps from condition damage and non-condition ones and currently the gap is not wide enough?

Unless you’re a sinister engi, I don’t believe any condition build matches to the DPS of a zerker, it’s just not possible given the time frame of boss fights. Also you have 3 camps really arguing, and it gets confusing because any changes based on one game mode affect the other.

One camp believes that Condition damage should not come close to zerker damage numbers, due to the more passive nature of conditions, apply and forget.

One camp believe that conditions should get close to but not exceed zerker damage.

Then you have my camp, which believes that condition damage should be able to reach zerker damage levels with conditions, but only if certain requirements are met, I.E., no cleansing or major screw ups on the enemy side, and continuous application.

Currently all the camps are agreeing that burning is right now the biggest problem for everyone condition wise, just we haven’t decided on what the root problem is, be it how easy it is for certain classes to quickly apply burning, or of burning is just dealing too much raw damage.

Doug Whisper.2465:

I don’t understand. Does it mean builds specialized in condition damage can generate dps even higher than the ones focused on non-condition damage? Or does it suppose that there should be a gap between the dps from condition damage and non-condition ones and currently the gap is not wide enough?

Yes. Sinister engineer with near perfect rotations are the highest PVE DPS in the game. Given the complexity required to pull off the rotation it’s only in PVE ’s stationary targets in long fights (short ones direct damage is higher and is MUCH easier).

In PVP and WvW DPS doesn’t actually matter it’s the burst that condis can do that have players calling for a nerf even though direct damage does has and always will have burst.

The only proper nerf is to say if you’re bleeding and burning at the same time the blood puts the fire out but the smell of charred flesh summons a pack of rabid honey badgers to attack you incessantly which inflict poison and more bleeding.

burning just needs to be made interesting in stead of just being “flashier bleed with higher damage”

Give it a special effect like all other non-bleed conditions so it has actual tactical uses beyond just dealing more damage.

I think it would be cool if burning returned to duration stacking (possibly with a bit of a damage bump) and naturally spread its remaining duration to all nearby non-burning targets each tick, like disease in GW1. Then it would have a unique function like all the other conditions.

This would put it in the same niche as disease. It’s a relatively low DPS condition, but it’s very difficult to completely remove due to the way it spreads. Disease was pretty darn effective at breaking stacks, keeping up AoE pressure, or simply keeping up as a cover for other conditions you didn’t want to be removed quite so fast, and builds designed around exploiting burning on your target could have a lot of that burning damage moved over to effects that benefit from burning in stead.

Burning has certainly seemed pretty OP, lately.

I don’t believe any condition build matches to the DPS of a zerker, it’s just not possible given the time frame of boss fights

If you’re talking about boss fights that don’t last long, then yes, zerker dps is much higher in a short amount of time. But if, like i suspect, HoT will bring longer fights into the mix, then no, Condi dmg can reach pure zerk builds.

Just look at the Condi dmg a dire build mesmer can reach, 2.4K condi dmg with skills that can apply burns, confusions and torments (2227 torment dmg…) in a matter of seconds, burns that last for 10.5 secs…. Not to mention that survivability is way higher then a zerk build.

As an example, look at some WB’s. When there’s a lot of condition classes/builds present, the WB’s HP just keeps melting away even past the point where you can’t hit them. (example : shadow behe)

I just hope the condi builds will become even more viable (or a mix of DD+condi), and that they will finetune the minor issues. Fingers crosses for HoT.

Sthenith.5196:

I don’t believe any condition build matches to the DPS of a zerker, it’s just not possible given the time frame of boss fights

If you’re talking about boss fights that don’t last long, then yes, zerker dps is much higher in a short amount of time. But if, like i suspect, HoT will bring longer fights into the mix, then no, Condi dmg can reach pure zerk builds.

Just look at the Condi dmg a dire build mesmer can reach, 2.4K condi dmg with skills that can apply burns, confusions and torments (2227 torment dmg…) in a matter of seconds, burns that last for 10.5 secs…. Not to mention that survivability is way higher then a zerk build.

As an example, look at some WB’s. When there’s a lot of condition classes/builds present, the WB’s HP just keeps melting away even past the point where you can’t hit them. (example : shadow behe)

I just hope the condi builds will become even more viable (or a mix of DD+condi), and that they will finetune the minor issues. Fingers crosses for HoT.

Well, from what we tested, we were staring down bosses with 2 million+ HP that we had to tackle with ten people, and at least one if not more of those people purposely running sub-optimal DPS.

Conditions were pretty effective.

Anet has created two ways to do damage: condi and direct damage. During a long time, just the second way was viable to do damage. But with a certain patch, condi was made viable too and zerker guys, who have to rebuild, or to loose dps using dispel cry. It is really certain that burning is intense actually but stop think about 1v1. When you do some big fight with a lot of cleanse mates, you do 0 damage with condi. Take the rev or necro for example, they can make minimim 13k direct damege with one spell (1sec cast, 1 sec after cast), ok so stop wine and take dispel.

Cleaning Burn doesnt help. The damage is to big. 1 Second and it was okay. Cleanign shows only the weakness of the other conditions because condition duration is not helpful.

Burning is Bleeding not factor 2,5 ahead, its factor 3,5 because the good base damage.

The problem with bleeding is that the damage comes only from the long duration and not from the ticks itself. Big bleeding stacks are no help, show only the problem.

Many people using burning have balthasar runes because the time is in general low and it helps alot. The Runes with Bleeding duration are no help, the overdamage is to great at non Boss Monster or PvP. In my opinion to buff Bleeding the Runesets with Bleeding duration must be convertet in +% Bleeding damage.

Another solution can be better base damage but the idea to make bleeding like the little brother from burning is not good. Maybe stack bleeding in intensity with 1% per stack for every player itself. With every stack the bleeding damage is increased by 1% but it doest help with the general problem that monster die to fast.

I did try burn guard and Condi PU mesmer, it’s just bullkitten, so easy no effort to kill anything, it has to be done something about it, because it requres no effort to kill things as fast as this.. you can literally melt targets so fast that it’s just pathetic when you once try condi build.. you just smile to yourself when you go back on power builds.

I suspect the problem is due to, unlike direct damages, condition damages are not affected by distance. Following the high risk high payoff principle, burst through direct damage required fighting at 240 range. However, the strength of condition damages are flat regardless of the distance. In theory, someone could unload condition damages at distance to reduce the other health pool and follow up with a burst. In effect, the overall risk is lower for the playing a condition build vs the power one. In this case, the risk and return principle is violated.

Meanwhile, the reverse is also true. Direct damages across a distance by design is weaker than the ones in short distance. When a power build dueling against a condition build, the longer the distance between the flight, the relative loss in dps from the power build is much higher than the one with condition builds. Against, the risk and return of playing power vs condition build are not the same.

If this is the root cause of the problem, the question for ANet is how to find a sweet spot to balance both sides.

They really need to change traits on Mesmer too, the power spike build is too over power with too much sustain. I also believe the trait Ineptitude needs a higher interval rate, it’s very oppressive especially when fighting a class that doesn’t have Warriors :Berserker stance . It’s like blinding ashes trait. I know that Mesmer class is dueling class but the skills are a bit over powered in my opinion . Mesmer can even go out of combat while clones are still attacking, which is also very frustrating when you see someone teleport 1200 range ; get full health, then come back in to battle and burst you down with 1 shatter combo.

With Guardians pretty much being incapable of applying any other damaging conditions, reducing their potential by reworking them instead of actually trying to balance the freakishly high damage of burning seems like nothing but a big middle finger to the profession.
To be honest I still question whether the changes made to Elementalist were a good idea when it seems rather obvious that the real issue is the damage of burning per stack per second. There is nearly no reason to ever focus on bleeding over burning now, regardless of profession. The Devs should have just throttled the damage of burning and bumped bleeding back up slightly instead of taking the time to rework the Ele’s skills. The system feels unbalanced right now.

No thanks, we guards “are in a good place.”

The application is way too high.

In WvW, I’m running -40% condition duration and 2 cleanses per second for 15 seconds or longer in a lot of fights, and it still isn’t enough because the re-application period is so quick. Plus, without frequent burst cleanses, the lack of priority sometimes makes it almost impossible to cleanse the proper one.

My suggestion? Nerf application, remove DoT on confusion (The point is to beat scrubs who are spamming and don’t pay attention, not get free kills on people trying to not act while their existing cleanses are on cooldown and then nuke them when they actually use a cleanse), buff all condition damage by 10% per tick and bleeding damage by like 15%, and remove the duration food, both + and – to compensate. This lets condition builds get better damage per tick (and damage/defense by food scaling) and learn to either sustain damage better or burst-apply a huge chunk of conditions at higher ticks.

Add DoT confusion on NPCS not Players. Since NPCS don’t attack as frequently as a player would.. Honestly I say remove the whole DOT together. Everyone is starting to just Reroll Condition perplexity Mesmers now cause of the DoT , all they do is faceroll and shatter and thats an instant 11-20 stacks of confusion doing about 1-2k dmg on a normal skill.

For people crying for mesmer nerfs, please view this post and get your facts straight.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-is-OP-Facts-vs-Fiction/first#post5632969

Mastamaker.2957:

For people crying for mesmer nerfs, please view this post and get your facts straight.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-is-OP-Facts-vs-Fiction/first#post5632969

Good luck. Thieves have been trying to get people to look at facts for years

It doesn’t work.

PopeUrban.2578:

Mastamaker.2957:

For people crying for mesmer nerfs, please view this post and get your facts straight.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-is-OP-Facts-vs-Fiction/first#post5632969

Good luck. Thieves have been trying to get people to look at facts for years

It doesn’t work.

That’s just cos they keep stealthing =P

PopeUrban.2578:

burning just needs to be made interesting in stead of just being “flashier bleed with higher damage”

Give it a special effect like all other non-bleed conditions so it has actual tactical uses beyond just dealing more damage.

I think it would be cool if burning returned to duration stacking (possibly with a bit of a damage bump) and naturally spread its remaining duration to all nearby non-burning targets each tick, like disease in GW1. Then it would have a unique function like all the other conditions.

This would put it in the same niche as disease. It’s a relatively low DPS condition, but it’s very difficult to completely remove due to the way it spreads. Disease was pretty darn effective at breaking stacks, keeping up AoE pressure, or simply keeping up as a cover for other conditions you didn’t want to be removed quite so fast, and builds designed around exploiting burning on your target could have a lot of that burning damage moved over to effects that benefit from burning in stead.

This is a really interesting thought.

PopeUrban.2578:

burning just needs to be made interesting in stead of just being “flashier bleed with higher damage”

Give it a special effect like all other non-bleed conditions so it has actual tactical uses beyond just dealing more damage.

I think it would be cool if burning returned to duration stacking (possibly with a bit of a damage bump) and naturally spread its remaining duration to all nearby non-burning targets each tick, like disease in GW1. Then it would have a unique function like all the other conditions.

This would put it in the same niche as disease. It’s a relatively low DPS condition, but it’s very difficult to completely remove due to the way it spreads. Disease was pretty darn effective at breaking stacks, keeping up AoE pressure, or simply keeping up as a cover for other conditions you didn’t want to be removed quite so fast, and builds designed around exploiting burning on your target could have a lot of that burning damage moved over to effects that benefit from burning in stead.

I think this idea has some mileage.
Burning as a condition could open up some interesting side effects that aside from maybe lowering base condi dmg per tick a little that can be easily cleansed, it could then open up secondary bleeds or weakness etc after cleansing.. this would indeed allow for sustained AOE pressure for a small amount of time that would then see zergs having to utilise more cleanses in rotations . thus levelling out some of the zergwars stacking as more cleanses will have been utilised earlier.. so although burning a in general would be toned down a little , it has secondary uses in order to force additional counter measures to be applied.

I dont think condition damage is a problem, builds that can stack a lot of burning damage dont have condition to cover it. So one cleanse and the 9 burnings stacks are gone.
I found funny that people cry about burning guardian, but never about direct damage, I play most GS/Hammer warrior, and when i stun/knock down than 100B from GS and they go from 100-0 no one complain, but if I play a burning guardian and setup 6-8 burning stack they have time to cleanse but dont and die, everyone complain .

rich.3901:

Arimas.3492:

The Mesmer for example, the most recent OP class, has huge amounts of access to confusion after the specializations patch. For the condition builds I’ve fought mesmers who apply 10+ stacks of confusion and 6+ Torment in a couple seconds and can do it again and again with nearly no downtime. Fights with a condition mesmer is almost an impossible fight even with a high amount of cleanse just because they have such large amounts of application in short amount of time and on short cooldowns.

Isn’t that what mesmers do? Confusion?
Elementalists burn, freeze, and blow wind up your ……, other classes shoot arrows, hit you with swords etc.
Seems to me that you are you asking for mesmers to be removed from the game? Maybe because you need that old chesnut “learn to play against them”

Just like Mr Aidenwolf Sir has said: adjust your playstyle.
Because people like me just love to throw 10 stacks of “confuse your face in” and then just stand there and watch you beat yourself to death while I sit at my keyboard laughing and laughing at your misfortune. I mean, seriously, how hard is it to see that triple rainbow shooting out of your head every time confusion ticks?

Sorry to appear to be so blunt but that is the way it is. Get your face smashed in, learn what happened and why, then alter how you play to try and shut that nasty little mesmer down. (which being a mesmer main for 3 years, i know it is possible to put me on my a..e with a few well timed spells of your own)

P.S. It’s about time mesmers WERE able to do this, so no, they don’t need anymore nerfs, thank you.

I can say the same thing about Thieves and Stealth. Isn’t stealth and backstab what Thieves do? Well guess who got the nerf bat several times and continues to so that stealth is no longer a working meta with Thieves? Seemed like to me all the crying about Thieves and stealth was “asking for” Thieves to be removed from the game. And since they cannot remove a whole class we are all being nerfed and forced into ballerina dodges with now 2 useless trait lines.

Mezmers are known as being straight up OP at the movement. A re balancing to there game play is in great need. I don’t know if it is in the area of confusion or not as they have many OP skills. So before you go saying “learn to play against them” I could have said the same thing thing when many people where crying about thieves. Now they are the most broken +1 classes in the game. Please get off your imaginary high horse.

Driften.8716:

rich.3901:

Arimas.3492:

The Mesmer for example, the most recent OP class, has huge amounts of access to confusion after the specializations patch. For the condition builds I’ve fought mesmers who apply 10+ stacks of confusion and 6+ Torment in a couple seconds and can do it again and again with nearly no downtime. Fights with a condition mesmer is almost an impossible fight even with a high amount of cleanse just because they have such large amounts of application in short amount of time and on short cooldowns.

Isn’t that what mesmers do? Confusion?
Elementalists burn, freeze, and blow wind up your ……, other classes shoot arrows, hit you with swords etc.
Seems to me that you are you asking for mesmers to be removed from the game? Maybe because you need that old chesnut “learn to play against them”

Just like Mr Aidenwolf Sir has said: adjust your playstyle.
Because people like me just love to throw 10 stacks of “confuse your face in” and then just stand there and watch you beat yourself to death while I sit at my keyboard laughing and laughing at your misfortune. I mean, seriously, how hard is it to see that triple rainbow shooting out of your head every time confusion ticks?

Sorry to appear to be so blunt but that is the way it is. Get your face smashed in, learn what happened and why, then alter how you play to try and shut that nasty little mesmer down. (which being a mesmer main for 3 years, i know it is possible to put me on my a..e with a few well timed spells of your own)

P.S. It’s about time mesmers WERE able to do this, so no, they don’t need anymore nerfs, thank you.

I can say the same thing about Thieves and Stealth. Isn’t stealth and backstab what Thieves do? Well guess who got the nerf bat several times and continues to so that stealth is no longer a working meta with Thieves? Seemed like to me all the crying about Thieves and stealth was “asking for” Thieves to be removed from the game. And since they cannot remove a whole class we are all being nerfed and forced into ballerina dodges with now 2 useless trait lines.

Mezmers are known as being straight up OP at the movement. A re balancing to there game play is in great need. I don’t know if it is in the area of confusion or not as they have many OP skills. So before you go saying “learn to play against them” I could have said the same thing thing when many people where crying about thieves. Now they are the most broken +1 classes in the game. Please get off your imaginary high horse.

I’m going to assume with that response that you didn’t even bother to read the link I posted earlier. I’ll be more receptive to getting off my high horse if you actually give informed reasons as to why mesmers are op instead of giving broad generalizations.

It’s also not surprising that with all the cries of “mesmer op op plz nerf” that every esports team runs 4-5 mesmers in pvp games….. Oh wait, they don’t. I don’t understand why people think devs will balance classes around baseless complaints as opposed to informed complaints backed up with stats and evidence. Do you really think the devs have no understanding at all of classes?

Yeah, burning is too strong while both bleed and poison are arguably a little weak.

Burning is killing raid diversity too. Specially engineers.
Pls nerf burning damage.

Mastamaker.2957:

Driften.8716:

rich.3901:

Arimas.3492:

The Mesmer for example, the most recent OP class, has huge amounts of access to confusion after the specializations patch. For the condition builds I’ve fought mesmers who apply 10+ stacks of confusion and 6+ Torment in a couple seconds and can do it again and again with nearly no downtime. Fights with a condition mesmer is almost an impossible fight even with a high amount of cleanse just because they have such large amounts of application in short amount of time and on short cooldowns.

Isn’t that what mesmers do? Confusion?
Elementalists burn, freeze, and blow wind up your ……, other classes shoot arrows, hit you with swords etc.
Seems to me that you are you asking for mesmers to be removed from the game? Maybe because you need that old chesnut “learn to play against them”

Just like Mr Aidenwolf Sir has said: adjust your playstyle.
Because people like me just love to throw 10 stacks of “confuse your face in” and then just stand there and watch you beat yourself to death while I sit at my keyboard laughing and laughing at your misfortune. I mean, seriously, how hard is it to see that triple rainbow shooting out of your head every time confusion ticks?

Sorry to appear to be so blunt but that is the way it is. Get your face smashed in, learn what happened and why, then alter how you play to try and shut that nasty little mesmer down. (which being a mesmer main for 3 years, i know it is possible to put me on my a..e with a few well timed spells of your own)

P.S. It’s about time mesmers WERE able to do this, so no, they don’t need anymore nerfs, thank you.

I can say the same thing about Thieves and Stealth. Isn’t stealth and backstab what Thieves do? Well guess who got the nerf bat several times and continues to so that stealth is no longer a working meta with Thieves? Seemed like to me all the crying about Thieves and stealth was “asking for” Thieves to be removed from the game. And since they cannot remove a whole class we are all being nerfed and forced into ballerina dodges with now 2 useless trait lines.

Mezmers are known as being straight up OP at the movement. A re balancing to there game play is in great need. I don’t know if it is in the area of confusion or not as they have many OP skills. So before you go saying “learn to play against them” I could have said the same thing thing when many people where crying about thieves. Now they are the most broken +1 classes in the game. Please get off your imaginary high horse.

I’m going to assume with that response that you didn’t even bother to read the link I posted earlier. I’ll be more receptive to getting off my high horse if you actually give informed reasons as to why mesmers are op instead of giving broad generalizations.

It’s also not surprising that with all the cries of “mesmer op op plz nerf” that every esports team runs 4-5 mesmers in pvp games….. Oh wait, they don’t. I don’t understand why people think devs will balance classes around baseless complaints as opposed to informed complaints backed up with stats and evidence. Do you really think the devs have no understanding at all of classes?

I can say the same for you. I can post a huge amount of biased forums complaints too. Only thing is I don’t have to, just go look at the Thief forums for the last year and a half. As for me really thinking the Devs have no understanding of all the classes? I will gladly say no they don’t. This has been widely seen. If you look the the devs who are in charge of each of the classes in HoT. Just compare Druid, Chronomancer, Reaper and Beserker to Tempest, Dragon Hunter and Dare Devil.

I am not telling you to get off of your high horse because Mezmers are OP, I am telling you to get off your high horse with you comments of telling everyone to “learn to play against them”. And you auto assumption that peoples complaining about mezmers is “asking them to be removed from the game”. Thieves have had to way harder way longer. Now that Mezmers are getting flack because they can’t nerf Thieves anymore, we get people like you telling people in a roughed up attitude “Don’t nerf us, just learn to play against it.” The only reference I have made to mezmers being OP is that it is general knowledge at the moment. You are only feeling the scrutiny that Theives have felt for years. And when Mezmers finally get nerfed just like Thieves did I will shrug and say the same thing Thieves were told, “it is working as attended”.

Rashagar.8349:

PopeUrban.2578:

burning just needs to be made interesting in stead of just being “flashier bleed with higher damage”

Give it a special effect like all other non-bleed conditions so it has actual tactical uses beyond just dealing more damage.

I think it would be cool if burning returned to duration stacking (possibly with a bit of a damage bump) and naturally spread its remaining duration to all nearby non-burning targets each tick, like disease in GW1. Then it would have a unique function like all the other conditions.

This would put it in the same niche as disease. It’s a relatively low DPS condition, but it’s very difficult to completely remove due to the way it spreads. Disease was pretty darn effective at breaking stacks, keeping up AoE pressure, or simply keeping up as a cover for other conditions you didn’t want to be removed quite so fast, and builds designed around exploiting burning on your target could have a lot of that burning damage moved over to effects that benefit from burning in stead.

This is a really interesting thought.

Been thinking on this further, and while I definitely still like the idea of burning having it’s own niche and think that the spreading to nearby targets would be a very cool niche for it to have (I’m not so sure if it’s still an issue but I know it used to be the case that condi builds in general used to have a bit of a problem with dealing AoE damage, and this could be a really interesting way to solve that problem while, as someone else said, discouraging over-use of stacking tactics in content) I don’t think I like the idea of burning returning to stacking by duration any more, since it just goes back to the problems we had before that was changed (where it was near useless to make a build centred around burning).

If it was reduced in power (for the sake of argument let’s say to the power of a current bleed stack), but gained this AoE dimension to it, say a 3 second burn application would, after 1 second, pulse 2 seconds of burn to enemy targets in a 240 radius, so if left unchecked it could spread like, heh, wildfire, among large groups of targets. That would definitely be an interesting change. There might be a problem with the technology being there to make so many of those calculations at once though. It would mean it’s use in sPvP could suffer, too. But if the burning on the secondary targets could also spread, in certain scenarios that could build up to an insane amount of damage.

*Quick and dirty maths time. 1500 condi dmg, ~160 bleed, 425 burn ticks currently.
Currently, Target gets hit by 3s burn: 1275 dmg.
AoE burning suggestion: Set both burn and bleed to 150 for ease.
Primary target gets hit by a 3s burn tick. 450 dmg over duration.
Best Case Scenario: Happens to have 5 nearby allies (has stacked): 2s to each of them: 300 dmg each
3rd second: Nobody moved away when they saw the flames start to spread, Primary target gets hit for 5 stacks of 1s burning: 750 extra dmg. Secondary targets take a spattering of other damage too, depending on distance from each other.
Total to primary target: 1200 dmg.

Thing about this is, it gets scarily exponential among things like wvw zergs, but that might not necessarily be a bad thing? It could just mean that tactics will have to adjust. Besides, I kind of like the idea that, if you see an ally on fire running towards you, you gtfo unless you have AoE cleanse.

Like any game of war if your going to stick to one common Meta people will find its weakness and your going to get wreaked .Change your game ,evolve your tactics.I ‘m a ranger mostly and found zerker ran its course.Now I run sword torch trapper.Its hilarious watching meta players dissolve with burn damage . Next week or maybe next month I’ll try something else.Remember PvP and WvW are team orientated so try some of the condi removal from allies ,theirs lots of them.

Rashagar.8349:

Rashagar.8349:

PopeUrban.2578:

burning just needs to be made interesting in stead of just being “flashier bleed with higher damage”

Give it a special effect like all other non-bleed conditions so it has actual tactical uses beyond just dealing more damage.

I think it would be cool if burning returned to duration stacking (possibly with a bit of a damage bump) and naturally spread its remaining duration to all nearby non-burning targets each tick, like disease in GW1. Then it would have a unique function like all the other conditions.

This would put it in the same niche as disease. It’s a relatively low DPS condition, but it’s very difficult to completely remove due to the way it spreads. Disease was pretty darn effective at breaking stacks, keeping up AoE pressure, or simply keeping up as a cover for other conditions you didn’t want to be removed quite so fast, and builds designed around exploiting burning on your target could have a lot of that burning damage moved over to effects that benefit from burning in stead.

This is a really interesting thought.

Been thinking on this further, and while I definitely still like the idea of burning having it’s own niche and think that the spreading to nearby targets would be a very cool niche for it to have (I’m not so sure if it’s still an issue but I know it used to be the case that condi builds in general used to have a bit of a problem with dealing AoE damage, and this could be a really interesting way to solve that problem while, as someone else said, discouraging over-use of stacking tactics in content) I don’t think I like the idea of burning returning to stacking by duration any more, since it just goes back to the problems we had before that was changed (where it was near useless to make a build centred around burning).

If it was reduced in power (for the sake of argument let’s say to the power of a current bleed stack), but gained this AoE dimension to it, say a 3 second burn application would, after 1 second, pulse 2 seconds of burn to enemy targets in a 240 radius, so if left unchecked it could spread like, heh, wildfire, among large groups of targets. That would definitely be an interesting change. There might be a problem with the technology being there to make so many of those calculations at once though. It would mean it’s use in sPvP could suffer, too. But if the burning on the secondary targets could also spread, in certain scenarios that could build up to an insane amount of damage.

*Quick and dirty maths time. 1500 condi dmg, ~160 bleed, 425 burn ticks currently.
Currently, Target gets hit by 3s burn: 1275 dmg.
AoE burning suggestion: Set both burn and bleed to 150 for ease.
Primary target gets hit by a 3s burn tick. 450 dmg over duration.
Best Case Scenario: Happens to have 5 nearby allies (has stacked): 2s to each of them: 300 dmg each
3rd second: Nobody moved away when they saw the flames start to spread, Primary target gets hit for 5 stacks of 1s burning: 750 extra dmg. Secondary targets take a spattering of other damage too, depending on distance from each other.
Total to primary target: 1200 dmg.

Thing about this is, it gets scarily exponential among things like wvw zergs, but that might not necessarily be a bad thing? It could just mean that tactics will have to adjust. Besides, I kind of like the idea that, if you see an ally on fire running towards you, you gtfo unless you have AoE cleanse.

It’s definately a thing that would need to be field tested, and honestly burning’s intensity stacking might not even be an issue if it were balanced more like bleed, but wit the aoe spreading element.

It would of course necessitate changes to many burn focused traits and abilities so that they’re not left in the dust. I think burn guardian was a cool build when they added it, and I think it’s a cool playstyle. I’d hate to see it just become useless. I’d hate to see flame engineer return to being mostly useless as well.

However, giving those builds alternate methods to pump condition damage while still being burn-centric could keep them in a good place, and actually give them more unique roles as more stack-breaking builds. I always sort of thought engi flamethrowers should really be a highly effective way to break stacks, and burn guardian is very similar to burn-paragon, so giving him tools similar to that would keep the build in a great place (aura that gives allies burning attacks, take less damage from burning foes, other effects that just plain make the guardian and his allies better when their opponents are on fire)

It definately seems like it would be more fun than “the damage condition, and that other damage condition” in any case.