Guild Wars 2

Preemptive TL;DR: The current state of the game is seriously lacking in decent story content, especially for characters that are not max level. This results in PvE feeling incredibly more like a grindfest and makes the game decidedly boring to play. ArenaNet needs to add more story content, both at end-game and at every level between arcs of the Personal Story.

Ignoring all of the old debates about vertical progressions and various grindy aspects of the game, there is definitely a more grindfest feel to the current game experience for new characters due to the revamp of the Personal Story system. The old system had too many breaks between linked story segments within a given story arc. So ArenaNet’s choice to make it more coherent was a good idea. Unfortunately, the result of their implementation is that the leveling progression for characters now feels like more of a grind than it used to. And for players like my girlfriend who already felt like it was more of a grind than it should be, it is even worse.

In GW1 a character could little beyond story missions and easily gain enough levels to be appropriate to the next mission, or very close to it. This made for a game that was truly lacking a feeling of grind until you started farming. My girlfriend and I both loved this aspect of that game. GW2 is a different game, and has its own uniqueness in play style, and that isn’t a bad thing. Many of the things GW2 has done have been fantastic and amazing. But it has always been more grindy.

Be that as it may, at least in the past you could participate in the personal story missions and only have to grind 1-2 levels or so at a time. It lacked coherency in the story, but at least it wasn’t a totally dreadful grind. But with the new system everything feels totally dragged out. You get your tutorial finished, and then you have to grind through 10 levels with absolutely no story whatsoever before you even begin your personal story missions? And once you finish your first Personal Story arc you might have leveled up all of 2-3 times and have to grind through another 7+ levels before you touch the next story arc? Plus the new system for unlocking weapon skills, utility skills, weapon swapping, class mechanics, etc. also makes it feel like more of a grind. It was bad enough to have Traits changed to unlock much later on in the game (previous Feature Pack), but now some of the most basic and fundamental aspects of the game are not unlocked until after you grind out a large number of levels!

It doesn’t matter that you can level up more quickly and easily in GW2 than in many other MMOs. This isn’t about how long it takes to reach max level cap and fully kit out a character compared to how long similar milestones take in other games. It is an issue of how the game feels. Does it feel fast-paced and fun, or does it feel slow, dull, boring, and like a chore? The latest iteration of GW2 feels like the latter.

I understand the reasons behind these changes. But the game now feels like it has no hook. What RPG game anywhere requires you to grind 7-10 levels between any story aspects?

Part of this is because the side-stories (heart regions) require zero interaction. There’s no actual story-based reasons given unless you deliberately pursue them (force yourself to talk to the NPC that you don’t actually have to talk to). There is no motivation to participate in the story of a given heart region, or even to participate in the story of a Dynamic Event; they simply exist, and nothing more. There is little reward to participating either, except for the exp. and occasionally some acceptable (albeit unspectacular) loot. So why participate in hearts and events? The only significant reason is to gain more levels. And when the majority of your activity (heart regions and DEs) is done only to gain levels, that is my definition of a grindfest, and it isn’t fun.

Where’s the story? Where’s the motivation to do anything except hit max level as quickly as possible? What do new players have to look forward to except to mindlessly grind out to level cap as fast as they can possibly manage so that they can participate in Living World content? For people like myself and my girlfriend who have absolutely zero interest in PvP, there is simply no reason to play right now.

ArenaNet needs to start focusing more attention on PvE content writing and development. Players have been begging for new end-game content for a long time, but they need to do more than that. They need to create additional story content suitable to every character level along the way as well, so new players, and new characters, have solid motivation to do more than just mindlessly grind out levels.

Drake

GW2 went with a different approach that pretty much alienates people that simply want to follow the arrow. Each zone tells an overall story and every dynamic event is a part of a larger story. The problem however is that you really have to look for it because you’re not playing through the story, you’re living it. It’s all happening in real time, so you really need to explore, follow NPCs, inspect your surroundings and listen carefully to figure it out. Sometimes you really need to go out of your way to piece together references made by an NPCs idle chatter.

The story is what you make of it. It’s your life. Start living.

Unlike 99% of MMOs, the endgame of GW2 isn’t about what you do after level cap. The endgame is the journey itself, the living world – your character’s life.

If you want to focus entirely on the Personal Story and anything else you do is just a way to level up enough to carry on then I agree it would feel like a grind.

But GW2 was never intended to work that way. The personal story is just one (relatively small) part of the game, or even the story. There is a lot of lore and story out in the open world too. Like Healix said you have to go looking for it, you can’t just follow the arrow and have it presented to you, but it is there and if you take the time to listen to the NPCs, speak to them and explore it’s a lot more enjoyable and interesting than simply running around checking off points until you level up and can go ‘back’ to the story.

I personally prefer an MMO that’s not entirely on rails, that’s my biggest gripe with TSW (I love the game) is that you are on a ride; a wonderful ride it is, but still a rollercoaster on tracks.

GW2’s strength, if ANet doesn’t ruin it, is the open “feel” it offers the player. TBH, I never felt the Personal Story was GW2’s strong suit…I am fairly agnostic about it. The PS stopped short of greatness in so many ways.

The personal home instances are a good example of how shallow the PS is in regards to the player character experience.

Back in the ancient days of DAoC, I could hang trophies of my kills on the walls of my personal home and place items for sale on a merchant in a stand outside my very customizable home. (I’m just using this as one example of GW2 missing the mark in just one facet of what “personal” means.)

I like the fact that outside the overarching story of the “dragons”, Tyria is filled with a thousands other stories unfolding all around. Some are intertwined, others stand-alone in hidden corners here and there.

If I could hit the do-over button, GW2 would never have had levels, it would have had Traits and Skills that could be unlocked in various multiples of ways via varying paths. (Longer paths would be easier, the shorter paths more difficult; but both would be ways to unlock a certain Trait/ability) I digress….

Guild Wars 1 was linear. That was a great strength and a great weakness.

Guild Wars 2 is less linear. I prefer less linear.

I think you’re all missing the point a bit.

Yes, there is lore present in the game, and you can find it if you look hard for it. But you can’t participate in it. You can’t make a difference to it (other than the limited and very temporary changes resulting from DE results). You can poke around and eavesdrop, and do a little bit of lore-related minor tasks here and there. And you receive little to no rewards for that “participation”. Plus, almost none of it feels in any way connected or chained; there’s no progression. Any given region seems totally disconnected from its neighboring regions even within the same map. And few things ever change.

So, can a player character “live” as part of the GW2 world? Yes, of course they can. But to what purpose? Where’s the meaningful story (linear or otherwise) that engages and motivates that participation? Where’s the sense of achievement and accomplishment for doing so? And why should we have to deliberately seek out story that has no reward?

I’m not saying it should be linear, and I’m not talking about just “following the arrow”. I love branching stories where decisions matter. I enjoy exploring and finding new places and new NPCs, and would like to find new stories as well. But GW2 doesn’t even have that. The little bit of story that does exist, whether it be the Personal Story or the regional lore, has no branching, no decisions that matter, no real changes that result from player interaction with it, and very little opportunities to interact anyway. And for most of it there is either no reward at all, or little to no reward other than exp.

So can we spend our time searching hard for little pieces of story that we can have absolutely no effect on, and receive little to no reward for finding? Sure we can. But why would we? That’s the point. There’s no reason to do it. Why should I spend time running around a game world searching hard for minor story and lore content rather than reading a book or watching a movie, or playing a different game, that has more obvious and profound story content?

I love the mechanics of GW2. But there’s no reason to participate in the story right now. Which means the game is nothing but mechanics. Even if we spend our time running around, exploring, listening to the idle chatter of podunk nobody NPCs here and there and learn the story of the area, that we can’t influence even if we try, there’s no gain for doing that. It feels like wasted time because there’s no reward for it, especially if you’ve already been there and done that (read world completion) because nothing’s changed. Ok, yes, few adjustments here and there as a result of Living World content, but not very much, and certainly not enough to make the game world itself feel like a story on its own unless you can participate fully in the Living World content along the way anyway.

So what’s left? We can run around searching out story that gives no reward (and then eventually have to grind away levels anyway just to be able to move on to other stories with no reward without getting killed) and thus take even more time between the more significant story arcs. Or grind as fast as possible to move on to the next story arc and eventually to get high enough level to be able to participate fully in Living World content when it comes out (read max level for full participation). But no matter which way you choose, it’s still just grinding. It’s just an issue of what you choose to do between grinding sessions to break it up a bit.

The issue is the motivation to do something or not to do something. So what’s the motivation to look for lore elements? Just to break up the monotony of the exp grind, and nothing more. You get nothing else out of the time spent searching for story elements, and even less so if you’ve already seen it before. There’s no motivation to talk to heart region NPCs to learn the story of why you’re doing the things they want you to do. And even if you do talk to them, just for the sake of the story element, none of them seem connected in any way. There’s no flow of story or lore elements, it’s all just sort of detached. The only real exception is the chained DEs, but then you have to sort of wait around for it to start up, and it always feels like you’re jumping into the middle of something instead of having participated in story that has a beginning that you’ve been a part of. So our characters are just mundane citizens of a world that they can have no real impact on most of the time.

Maybe some of you are perfectly OK with that. I’m not. I’ve never liked grind games. I will never like grind games. And breaking up the grind from time to time with crafting, or fishing, or exploring, or looking for lore, or whatever is available in any given game, doesn’t remove the grind. It doesn’t make it less of an issue. Instead, the game needs to feel like it flows, and is always fun no matter what I’m doing.

Drake Phoenix.6158:

Maybe some of you are perfectly OK with that. I’m not. I’ve never liked grind games. I will never like grind games. And breaking up the grind from time to time with crafting, or fishing, or exploring, or looking for lore, or whatever is available in any given game, doesn’t remove the grind. It doesn’t make it less of an issue. Instead, the game needs to feel like it flows, and is always fun no matter what I’m doing.

Sounds like you come from single player RPGs and not from any MMORPG I’ve ever heard of, because no game out right now or in the past has what it seems you are looking for.

Sounds to me, OP, like you’re describing a single player RPG. Story is central to every aspect of the game, you get the best rewards available, the story always waits for you to show up, and if you want to skip the side quests, the story content adjusts to your level.

Unfortunately, this is an MMO, not a SPRPG. Events happen when they happen because someone else got there before you did. Many MMO players value progression over time, so the possibility of perceived grind is going to exist. Rewards are tied to systems designed to keep players playing because the company requires an active player base to get paid (no sub, but inactive players probably don’t buy gems).

Unfortunately, you aren’t the only one playing GW2.

OP, how are you not changing the lore? I’m not sure I understand.

Last I heard: Living and Personal story SPOILERS AHEAD:

I killed Zhaitan and I helped rescue people from Lion’s Arch after it was invaded and destroyed. Then I fought to take back Lion’s Arch, which is still in the process of being rebuilt.

I definitely 100% feel like a part of the story.

I mean I killed Scarlet and was there to watch her drill finish waking up a new Elder Dragon.

How am I not part of the lore?

In my opinion, everything is a story in this game. Even many events chain off each other if you follow the NPCs where they go and listen to their dialogue.

There is HOURS of story in dungeons if you take the time to read the dialogues or listen to the cut scenes.

There is TONS of NPC conversations all around the world as you wander about .. if you’re not running to your next destination.

Personal Story and Living Story are only two parts of many arcs of individualized snipits of lively story in this game.

Where is this grind fest you are talking about? I think you are misusing that word. At least not in the same context.

Definition of Grinding in a Video Game: Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. – Taken from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_

i don’t really enjoy making alts to go through all the game-book ish personal storylines, nor do i enjoy wandering around tyria like an ant looking for food in an attempt to uncover the game’s lore.. i’d really like arena net to consider that type of gamer and implement a way of enticing players through all the available content.. i don’t really get what the opening poster is aiming toward though as it seems they are disconcerted with almost all aspects of any mmo

I don’t even bother with the personal story until I’ve reached 70~80, I might try a new character and completely ignore even the level 10 one, because the world is a story unto its own.

Vayne.8563:

OP, how are you not changing the lore? I’m not sure I understand.

Last I heard: Living and Personal story SPOILERS AHEAD:

I killed Zhaitan and I helped rescue people from Lion’s Arch after it was invaded and destroyed. Then I fought to take back Lion’s Arch, which is still in the process of being rebuilt.

I definitely 100% feel like a part of the story.

I mean I killed Scarlet and was there to watch her drill finish waking up a new Elder Dragon.

How am I not part of the lore?

Because no one else ever mentions it. There’s no impact on world lore from player actions, at least none that players see.

For example, the LS instances don’t recognize players who have completed the PS. That’s a big oversight in terms of lore continuity and player experience. If the PC is a big cheese kittencued Tyria from Zhaitan, that should be noticed and commented on. But no where in the game do players see the impact of their actions.

Check out the Living World forum for more questions about PC impact on lore.

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Guild Wars has a tremendous amount of rich lore to draw from, and I feel like we get the video game equivalent of a choose your own adventure novel from the 1980s. Sure, we get to participate and make some choices, but it all just feels so contrived and artificial. The story would be vastly improved if some time was taken to really focus on the writing. Season 2 has bored me to tears so far largely because the dialogue and story arc is so atrociously bland.

I keep seeing small little details – the sewer in Divinty’s Reach that you can inspect, but do nothing about (that I am aware of anyways). Snippets of conversations that pique my interest, but I quickly realize lead nowhere. What I would like is an almost Oblivion level of detail to NPC’s lives. They go home, you can follow them. See into their lives. Most would be boring…but maybe there’s a guy who sleeps around on his wife, or some other sordid tale. Maybe you couldn’t interact with them in any meaningful way, but it would make for interesting diversions. Instead, the “living” world of GW2 is on an endless, fairly static loop.

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

Gilosean.3805:

Vayne.8563:

OP, how are you not changing the lore? I’m not sure I understand.

Last I heard: Living and Personal story SPOILERS AHEAD:

I killed Zhaitan and I helped rescue people from Lion’s Arch after it was invaded and destroyed. Then I fought to take back Lion’s Arch, which is still in the process of being rebuilt.

I definitely 100% feel like a part of the story.

I mean I killed Scarlet and was there to watch her drill finish waking up a new Elder Dragon.

How am I not part of the lore?

Because no one else ever mentions it. There’s no impact on world lore from player actions, at least none that players see.

For example, the LS instances don’t recognize players who have completed the PS. That’s a big oversight in terms of lore continuity and player experience. If the PC is a big cheese kittencued Tyria from Zhaitan, that should be noticed and commented on. But no where in the game do players see the impact of their actions.

Check out the Living World forum for more questions about PC impact on lore.

There are definitely things mentioned in the LS that refer to the PS. I can’t recall them offhand but they’re there. You obviously have a history for example, with Trahearne when you meet him and that history is obvious in the exchange. He’s not a stranger.

But in the open world there’s never really going to be references to PS or LS. That’s the weakness of having a persistent world.

Take Orr. In Orr it has to be left pretty much as is, because some players haven’t faced Zhaitan yet, or finished their PS.

Well you can make another Orr, a different Orr for people who did finish it right? It’s a tremendous amount of work, and then what happens.

Everyone goes to the new zones and the people who haven’t finished have no one to play with and can’t get around because Orr is harder than the rest of the game till that point.

MMOs aren’t story driven, generally for reason. SWToR and TSW are both story driven MMOs to some degree but the open world generally remains unchanged. That’s the nature of the beast.

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…as for the OP, the world is living…I have absolutely no problem going around and doing the Hearts and DE’s, I also have to problem seeing how they relate to the area around them and also the region they’re in, it’s not that difficult to see the relationships. As for a GW2 being a grind, I have news for him, a grind is when you have to repeat the exact same ‘quest’ and/or ‘event over and over ad infinitum to gain levels, at least that’s grind in it’s basic form…something that GW2 doesn’t come close to…unless you chose to play it that way. (IMO)

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

My personnal view there : some zones have a very good story tied to them.

Blazeridge, fireheart and kessex hills are very well done in this regard. However there are other horrible exambles like timberline falls where there is so much happening and I don’t know what the end goal is.

As for the personal story :
The story is all compassing, really inclusive and well designed in theory. In practice, all the subtilities and details of the fight against zaithan are poorly delivered.

[SPOILER WARNING BELOW]
Answer this question : how did anyone figured out how to build magic canons that can harm zaithan ? (I know the answer, however I think that it is poorly explained and many people miss this sort of capital plot points).

All in all, the stories are here but the delivery method is uneven.

It is something they have started to fix in LW season 2. You jump from taimi to rox in a bizarre fashion however you do not miss important details and it fits the timeline.

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

I agree with what you’re saying about the writing in GW2, I find it overwhelmingly cheesy where I actually see the dialogue and say “Oh come on…” For example boss fractal with the molten firestrom/bruiser and the exchange goes:
Molten Firestorm: Squeeee! We’ve got company! Hey, bruiser. You see what I see?
Molten Berserker: (ROAR)
Molten Firestorm: I’ll take that as a yippee. Let’s see how colorful a smear we can make.

Or the Mai Trin boss fractal:

Mai Trin: This has all gone to crud. Scarlet’s gonna have my noggin for screwing up.
Champion First Mate Horrik: What now, Captain? It’ll take cannonballs to get out of here alive.

Who wrote this stuff, I read both of the books and they were never this cheesy. In fact, compared to this cheese I dare say the books were actually GOOD writing.

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

Yes, I’m talking plot line, and without a plot line you have a jumbled story, which the OP says doesn’t exist or exists in only existential form, if at all, when what is really there is a broad brush stroked ‘story’ guided by the plot line. Many little details have been left out or left to the PC(players) imagination, which is extremely hard to do if you aren’t familiar with the lore/history. Always my opinion…I think a litmus test would be to take each zone and dissect it, does the zone have it’s own ‘plot line’, is that ‘plot line’ conveyed/helped along by the ‘story’ aka Hearts/DE’s and NPC’s conversations or lack there of. If after that analysis the ’story’d isn’t cohesive or meaty enough, then I can see the OP’s point, but just off the top of my head and from memory…I don’t see that problem.

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

I never said you mentioned Guild Wars 1, but enough people have. In reality, this is how Anet writes. This how they wrote 10 years ago.

It’s not Shakespeare. It was never going to be Shakespeare.

It’s not all or even mostly juvenile, those it is aimed at a certain audience. Clearly you’re not that audience.

VodCom.6924:

My personnal view there : some zones have a very good story tied to them.

Blazeridge, fireheart and kessex hills are very well done in this regard. However there are other horrible exambles like timberline falls where there is so much happening and I don’t know what the end goal is.

As for the personal story :
The story is all compassing, really inclusive and well designed in theory. In practice, all the subtilities and details of the fight against zaithan are poorly delivered.

[SPOILER WARNING BELOW]
Answer this question : how did anyone figured out how to build magic canons that can harm zaithan ? (I know the answer, however I think that it is poorly explained and many people miss this sort of capital plot points).

All in all, the stories are here but the delivery method is uneven.

It is something they have started to fix in LW season 2. You jump from taimi to rox in a bizarre fashion however you do not miss important details and it fits the timeline.

Spoilers:

It was explained in the Asuran story line at least to my satisfaction. It’s no worse than being able to make a teleport.

Professor Gor experimented with dragon magic. He designed a weapon to be used against dragon minions that stole their magic from them and used it again them. It absorbed their magic as the way dragons absorb magic, then redirected it back at them. I played that story so I knew how that went.

The problem is from a story telling view, there are many pieces and you don’t get to see them all.

Lunar Sunset.8742:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

I agree with what you’re saying about the writing in GW2, I find it overwhelmingly cheesy where I actually see the dialogue and say “Oh come on…” For example boss fractal with the molten firestrom/bruiser and the exchange goes:
Molten Firestorm: Squeeee! We’ve got company! Hey, bruiser. You see what I see?
Molten Berserker: (ROAR)
Molten Firestorm: I’ll take that as a yippee. Let’s see how colorful a smear we can make.

Or the Mai Trin boss fractal:

Mai Trin: This has all gone to crud. Scarlet’s gonna have my noggin for screwing up.
Champion First Mate Horrik: What now, Captain? It’ll take cannonballs to get out of here alive.

Who wrote this stuff, I read both of the books and they were never this cheesy. In fact, compared to this cheese I dare say the books were actually GOOD writing.

And yet there are two lion guards walking around Lion’s Arch that tell a whole story in their rounds that I followed because I was fascinated by what they had to say. Seven scenes in all that talk about how the aftermath of the Lion’s Arch battles left in its wake corruption and prejudice.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lionguard_Brenn_Hillow

That’s why I say the writing is uneven.

Vayne.8563:

And yet there are two lion guards walking around Lion’s Arch that tell a whole story in their rounds that I followed because I was fascinated by what they had to say. Seven scenes in all that talk about how the aftermath of the Lion’s Arch battles left in its wake corruption and prejudice.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lionguard_Brenn_Hillow

That’s why I say the writing is uneven.

Even better, how about the cub escort in the Plains of Ashford where you keep ghosts off them? Or the Sharkmaw jumping puzzle? Sure, they’re not drama, but come on.

If you want to talk about drama writing, how about the one event chain in the Blazeridge Steppes where Ebon Vanguard and Legionnaires get to work together taking out ogres because they are a threat?

If you just want to talk about good, period, how about the sequence of events in Lornar’s Pass starting with fishing Dwarven Artifacts out of False Lake and ending with the one battle with the Fire Imp from a cursed Summoning Stone? They crammed a lot into that sequence of events.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

And yet there are two lion guards walking around Lion’s Arch that tell a whole story in their rounds that I followed because I was fascinated by what they had to say. Seven scenes in all that talk about how the aftermath of the Lion’s Arch battles left in its wake corruption and prejudice.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lionguard_Brenn_Hillow

That’s why I say the writing is uneven.

Even better, how about the cub escort in the Plains of Ashford where you keep ghosts off them? Or the Sharkmaw jumping puzzle? Sure, they’re not drama, but come on.

If you want to talk about drama writing, how about the one event chain in the Blazeridge Steppes where Ebon Vanguard and Legionnaires get to work together taking out ogres because they are a threat?

If you just want to talk about good, period, how about the sequence of events in Lornar’s Pass starting with fishing Dwarven Artifacts out of False Lake and ending with the one battle with the Fire Imp from a cursed Summoning Stone? They crammed a lot into that sequence of events.

I think Guild Wars 2’s ambient and event dialogue, on the whole, tends to be better than story dialogue at least the stuff the game launched with.

It’s probably easier for people to ignore stuff like ambient dialogue, because you don’t need to listen to it. But that doesn’t mean it’s not in game.

As I’ve said in a previous post I stopped doing the personal story until the character hits close to 80 unless I need a boost in XP, I’ve played through the entire personal story just once however and I’ve got about 5 or 6 level 80’s now, — now I’ll get to the point — I prefer this method after trying different ways to play, every time I do I find something new in the world that I had not known was even there.

I do think the citizenry should if not must add some acknowledgment of the things you do for them, example; I saved a bunch of kids, not one of those ungrateful parents (maybe they wanted them dead) has ever sort me out and said thank you.

Do we get cut prices for all our heroics ? no, we have to pay … now tell me why I should pay to save Tyria considering I am its last hope before being swallowed dragons, NPCs should be falling over themselves to make every effort to equip me the best way they can.

Those little boxes of rewards while you level it would be nicer if an NPC ran up to you to give it too you, rather interesting problem if you happen to be at the top of a vista but then the NPC wouldn’t find you until you entered an outpost or city.

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

I never said you mentioned Guild Wars 1, but enough people have. In reality, this is how Anet writes. This how they wrote 10 years ago.

It’s not Shakespeare. It was never going to be Shakespeare.

It’s not all or even mostly juvenile, those it is aimed at a certain audience. Clearly you’re not that audience.

It doesn’t have to be Shakespeare. I doubt anyone is asking for Shakespeare. It does however need to be a little bit more mature than Dr. Seuss for players to feel any sense of gravitas and this is something the GW2 story repeatedly fails to achieve. You claim the writing is aimed at a certain audience. What audience is that? People who like the Twilight novels?

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

I never said you mentioned Guild Wars 1, but enough people have. In reality, this is how Anet writes. This how they wrote 10 years ago.

It’s not Shakespeare. It was never going to be Shakespeare.

It’s not all or even mostly juvenile, those it is aimed at a certain audience. Clearly you’re not that audience.

It doesn’t have to be Shakespeare. I doubt anyone is asking for Shakespeare. It does however need to be a little bit more mature than Dr. Seuss for players to feel any sense of gravitas and this is something the GW2 story repeatedly fails to achieve. You claim the writing is aimed at a certain audience. What audience is that? People who like the Twilight novels?

So how is this Dr. Seuss?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lionguard_Brenn_Hillow

Yes I posted this link higher, but apparently you ignored it. It’s definitely not Shakespeare, but it’s certainly not Dr. Seuss either.

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

I never said you mentioned Guild Wars 1, but enough people have. In reality, this is how Anet writes. This how they wrote 10 years ago.

It’s not Shakespeare. It was never going to be Shakespeare.

It’s not all or even mostly juvenile, those it is aimed at a certain audience. Clearly you’re not that audience.

It doesn’t have to be Shakespeare. I doubt anyone is asking for Shakespeare. It does however need to be a little bit more mature than Dr. Seuss for players to feel any sense of gravitas and this is something the GW2 story repeatedly fails to achieve. You claim the writing is aimed at a certain audience. What audience is that? People who like the Twilight novels?

So how is this Dr. Seuss?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lionguard_Brenn_Hillow

Yes I posted this link higher, but apparently you ignored it. It’s definitely not Shakespeare, but it’s certainly not Dr. Seuss either.

No, I read it. It is fairly juvenile.

Lionguard Quatta: Your first patrol. Think you’re ready?
Lionguard Brenn Hillow: The armor, it’s so heavy. I don’t… I don’t remember my route. I don’t… I can’t…

It reeks of artificiality and forced exposition.

Lionguard Quatta: Ferkinna! How’s my favourite keg thrower?
Ferkinna: Quatta, you gill-sauced squeaker. Didn’t see you there. Who is this runt? Looks like he stumbled out of the crib.

“Gill-sauced squeaker”? Sounds a lot like a star-bellied sneetch. Seussical.

If this example was your evidence of good writing, you’re going to have to try a lot harder.

Gilosean.3805:

Vayne.8563:

OP, how are you not changing the lore? I’m not sure I understand.

Last I heard: Living and Personal story SPOILERS AHEAD:

I killed Zhaitan and I helped rescue people from Lion’s Arch after it was invaded and destroyed. Then I fought to take back Lion’s Arch, which is still in the process of being rebuilt.

I definitely 100% feel like a part of the story.

I mean I killed Scarlet and was there to watch her drill finish waking up a new Elder Dragon.

How am I not part of the lore?

Because no one else ever mentions it. There’s no impact on world lore from player actions, at least none that players see.

For example, the LS instances don’t recognize players who have completed the PS. That’s a big oversight in terms of lore continuity and player experience. If the PC is a big cheese kittencued Tyria from Zhaitan, that should be noticed and commented on. But no where in the game do players see the impact of their actions.

Check out the Living World forum for more questions about PC impact on lore.

Actually there is a problem there but its not the one you mention. NPCs in the Living story most definitely recognize that you were instrumental in the personal story line. They do this in more ways then one. The problem there is they assume you took part in the personal story line even if you didnt. Not sure if this may be an account wide flag or something but some alts I have that never engaged in their personal story still get recognized like they did.

I think people overlook this as cinematics tend to marginalize player characters due to what Anet explained is a voice over canandrum (including PC in cinematics would cost (not just monitory but also resource wise) as much as 10 npcs due to races and genders) but if you engage NPCs in conversation thats a different story. Its where most recognition occurs. Same is true for the open world. If you never talk to an NPC you’d think no one noticed a single deed you did but if you talk to NPCs they’ll ocationally point out you were the one to save the village etc.. and thank you for it.

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

Shallow and Juvenile? Most characters where forged in fire. Marjory is what she is today cause she has indirectly contributed to killing a kid to a hide some ministers secret. Kasmeer from a life of nobility ended marginalized and loosing her father because of her brothers mistakes. Taimi has a debilitating decease.

Gw2 has touched on subjects like Same Sex Relationships, People displaced due to war but not just, they were taken advantage of because of their predicament, Death, loss of Loved ones, Torture, self sacrifice to ensure a future for your children etc…

Gw2 employees humor a lot sure but that doesnt mean its juvenile. As MMOs go they got some of the darker streaks actually. There are not many MMos who’s writing can make you feel sorry for the NPCs involved.

NewTrain.7549:

No, I read it. It is fairly juvenile.

Lionguard Quatta: Your first patrol. Think you’re ready?
Lionguard Brenn Hillow: The armor, it’s so heavy. I don’t… I don’t remember my route. I don’t… I can’t…

It reeks of artificiality and forced exposition.

Lionguard Quatta: Ferkinna! How’s my favourite keg thrower?
Ferkinna: Quatta, you gill-sauced squeaker. Didn’t see you there. Who is this runt? Looks like he stumbled out of the crib.

“Gill-sauced squeaker”? Sounds a lot like a star-bellied sneetch. Seussical.

If this example was your evidence of good writing, you’re going to have to try a lot harder.

I think you’re not taking into consideration the medium here. This isnt a novel, its a game. More specifically this isnt narration but rather character dialog. Writing here needs to convey character more then anything else. If Queen Jennah used gill-sauced squeaker then yeah you’d have a good point. But soldiers in a city founded by pirates, sailors and merchants no less? It fits the character.

As for Lionguard Brenn Hillow, this is a new recruit in an organization that has recently lost huge numbers. Such an organization is desperate to re-arm itself in order to still be able to defend the city should the need arises. As such it no longer has the luxury of properly training good recruits. Dialog there is intended is trying to tell us a number of things. Its telling us this is a new recruit. Its telling us he had 0 training… Lionguard Brenn Hillow never wore an armor before now, he isnt used to it one bit, it feels heavy, suffocating. They’re nervous. In part because they’re new, in part because of the trauma everyone suffered in the attack I suppose. Whatever the case that nervousness is expressed both through the hesitation in speaking and also by the character being forgetful.

This is definitely exposition no doubt about that, but its good exposition in my opinion. I’d be more let down if instead of having the dialog tell the story, they’d have the character tell the story.

Imagine if instead of this:
Lionguard Quatta: Your first patrol. Think you’re ready?
Lionguard Brenn Hillow: The armor, it’s so heavy. I don’t… I don’t remember my route. I don’t… I can’t…

we got this:
Lionguard Quatta: Your first patrol. Think you’re ready?
Lionguard Brenn Hillow: Yeah, I think so. Its just, I am so nervous. I havent even recovered from the trauma of the past days. It would have helped if I had a little training before being sent on patrol too.

Much worst. The original dialog gives me the same background as my bad dialog does but does it way more organically. Dont think its forced, on the contrary I think it blends really well.

Galen Grey.4709:

NewTrain.7549:

No, I read it. It is fairly juvenile.

Lionguard Quatta: Your first patrol. Think you’re ready?
Lionguard Brenn Hillow: The armor, it’s so heavy. I don’t… I don’t remember my route. I don’t… I can’t…

It reeks of artificiality and forced exposition.

Lionguard Quatta: Ferkinna! How’s my favourite keg thrower?
Ferkinna: Quatta, you gill-sauced squeaker. Didn’t see you there. Who is this runt? Looks like he stumbled out of the crib.

“Gill-sauced squeaker”? Sounds a lot like a star-bellied sneetch. Seussical.

If this example was your evidence of good writing, you’re going to have to try a lot harder.

I think you’re not taking into consideration the medium here. This isnt a novel, its a game. More specifically this isnt narration but rather character dialog. Writing here needs to convey character more then anything else. If Queen Jennah used gill-sauced squeaker then yeah you’d have a good point. But soldiers in a city founded by pirates, sailors and merchants no less? It fits the character.

As for Lionguard Brenn Hillow, this is a new recruit in an organization that has recently lost huge numbers. Such an organization is desperate to re-arm itself in order to still be able to defend the city should the need arises. As such it no longer has the luxury of properly training good recruits. Dialog there is intended is trying to tell us a number of things. Its telling us this is a new recruit. Its telling us he had 0 training… Lionguard Brenn Hillow never wore an armor before now, he isnt used to it one bit, it feels heavy, suffocating. They’re nervous. In part because they’re new, in part because of the trauma everyone suffered in the attack I suppose. Whatever the case that nervousness is expressed both through the hesitation in speaking and also by the character being forgetful.

This is definitely exposition no doubt about that, but its good exposition in my opinion. I’d be more let down if instead of having the dialog tell the story, they’d have the character tell the story.

Imagine if instead of this:
Lionguard Quatta: Your first patrol. Think you’re ready?
Lionguard Brenn Hillow: The armor, it’s so heavy. I don’t… I don’t remember my route. I don’t… I can’t…

we got this:
Lionguard Quatta: Your first patrol. Think you’re ready?
Lionguard Brenn Hillow: Yeah, I think so. Its just, I am so nervous. I havent even recovered from the trauma of the past days. It would have helped if I had a little training before being sent on patrol too.

Much worst. The original dialog gives me the same background as my bad dialog does but does it way more organically. Dont think its forced, on the contrary I think it blends really well.

I disagree with your assessment of bad dialog, but i will say the whole thing comes off as pretty uninteresting. Which i suppose is fine as random background noise, but i doubt it would draw people in very much

I agree with you OP. There should be more story to keep busy while levelling… While the game ils a prime example to attention to small detail given how many NPCs have dialogs, actions and whatnot, it lacks silver lining. The small thank you letters you gain from finishing a heart or completing a zone could be revamped to rectify that and make the levelling more enjoyable, I think… Maybe by changing the hearts into a regional story. Each region would still have hearts, but each would give you a part of a bigger story limited to their zone. That would make hearts more interesting the first time and subsequent times while keeping the freedom of doing whatever you want. A silver lining that makes you want to stay in the zone doing hearts to learn more instead of going somewhere else out now boredom.

Galen Grey.4709:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

Shallow and Juvenile? Most characters where forged in fire. Marjory is what she is today cause she has indirectly contributed to killing a kid to a hide some ministers secret. Kasmeer from a life of nobility ended marginalized and loosing her father because of her brothers mistakes. Taimi has a debilitating decease.

Gw2 has touched on subjects like Same Sex Relationships, People displaced due to war but not just, they were taken advantage of because of their predicament, Death, loss of Loved ones, Torture, self sacrifice to ensure a future for your children etc…

Gw2 employees humor a lot sure but that doesnt mean its juvenile. As MMOs go they got some of the darker streaks actually.

Just because it deals with mature themes doesn’t mean it’s not juvenile. Everything you list can be dealt with in a juvenile manner (proof: GW2).

Galen Grey.4709:

There are not many MMos who’s writing can make you feel sorry for the NPCs involved.

You’re right, there aren’t many. GW2 is just another example of one that fails to draw you into the characters.

Vayne.8563:

Well you can make another Orr, a different Orr for people who did finish it right? It’s a tremendous amount of work, and then what happens.

Everyone goes to the new zones and the people who haven’t finished have no one to play with and can’t get around because Orr is harder than the rest of the game till that point.

Not a problem — thanks to NPE! Player retention out the proverbial wazoo, new players everywhere! And since all (PVE) roads lead to Orr, there will never be a scarcity of new (and aging) players there.

Plus there’s nothing to prevent old players from tagging along with their new player friends! Just like when one of my characters (who has already clobbered Big Z) goes (back in time) to Claw Island to help a friend try to convince Watch Commander Talon that an invasion is on the way. Talon will still be in just as much denial as he was when my character tried to warn him way back when.

MMO time (and space!) is extra wibbley wobbley like that.

some good points right here

Well technically, you are making an impact when you complete renown hearts, in the same way that you make an impact by fighting Zhaitan’s forces in the PS; the effects are not permanent to the game world, but you are nonetheless supposed to feel like you made a difference.

But perhaps the distinction is that the PS is largely instanced, so when you complete a task, you feel like you completed it within your little bubble and made an impact – like it’s a universe that is separate from the non-instanced MMO world?

I mean, I can see your point because renown hearts – despite being a step up from traditional MMO questing – still boil down to “repetitively complete XYZ task, or set of tasks.” Events are, imo, the closest to feeling like you make an impact outside of PS, but some of them don’t happen that often. Or they happen too often.

There’s another game out there that got one thing right about dynamic events that I think GW2 could take a leaf out of and that’s zonewide events (or in GW2 terms, mapwide). GW2 has world bosses, but they are all basically a linear series of pre-events that lead to the exact same location.

The predictability is great for farming and consistency, but such events also tend to include something like 10% of the areas in a given map. In other words, it’s “epic” but it’s not mapwide.

I would be interested just as a matter of curiosity to see what a Harathi-Hinterlands-style-map would look like on crack. If it was just a constant warzone everywhere, with you desperately trying to help the NPCs hold some sway. Like the spirit of some of the Orr zones, except with renown hearts, at a much lower level, and with more focus on mapwide effects of gaining control of certain areas.

phys.7689:

I disagree with your assessment of bad dialog, but i will say the whole thing comes off as pretty uninteresting. Which i suppose is fine as random background noise, but i doubt it would draw people in very much

You think?

I mean in nearly every other MMO all you’ll get is some dialog how whatever rained distruction on the city / town that well looks absolutely fine.

Here you got the actual city in ruins, you got NPC characters that are acting like the city was recently destroyed in the manner you’d expect them to act. How is that not drawing you in a lot better then what the competition does?

Lets not forget there was really no need for them to even create Lionguard Brenn Hillow. The story in LA was finished he’s not really adding anything beyond actually drawing people in. Its what GW2 excels in, little details that make living world way more believable. How is any of this a bad thing?

NewTrain.7549:

Galen Grey.4709:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Zaklex.6308:

Thanatos.2691:

NewTrain.7549:

The writing is just plain bad. It can involve me as much as I want, but if it’s written like a young adult novel, I’m still not going to be interested.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The writing feels more like fan-fiction than legitimate GW2 lore. I completely hate it.

I disagree, none of what is happening now is new, it’s actually GW history repeating itself. I can see you going ‘huh?’ right about now…well, it’s simple, this isn’t the first time the Elder Dragons have risen now, is it? Therefore what we’re experiencing is past events in a current world context. The concept is hard to understand, I know…

That response has nothing to do with the problem we’re discussing. You’re talking plot line, we’re talking writing. There’s a difference.

The writing is uneven in both games. There are some pretty good and pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 2. There are also some pretty bad examples of writing in Guild Wars 1.

But most of us were much younger and less discerning when we played Guild Wars 1 for the first time.

I never mentioned Guild Wars 1. I was only talking about Guild Wars 2, in which the writing is overwhelmingly shallow and juvenile. I’m not sure what you bringing GW1 into the equation has to do with my post, unless you’re trying to put words into other people’s mouths yet again.

Shallow and Juvenile? Most characters where forged in fire. Marjory is what she is today cause she has indirectly contributed to killing a kid to a hide some ministers secret. Kasmeer from a life of nobility ended marginalized and loosing her father because of her brothers mistakes. Taimi has a debilitating decease.

Gw2 has touched on subjects like Same Sex Relationships, People displaced due to war but not just, they were taken advantage of because of their predicament, Death, loss of Loved ones, Torture, self sacrifice to ensure a future for your children etc…

Gw2 employees humor a lot sure but that doesnt mean its juvenile. As MMOs go they got some of the darker streaks actually.

Just because it deals with mature themes doesn’t mean it’s not juvenile. Everything you list can be dealt with in a juvenile manner (proof: GW2).

Galen Grey.4709:

There are not many MMos who’s writing can make you feel sorry for the NPCs involved.

You’re right, there aren’t many. GW2 is just another example of one that fails to draw you into the characters.

When you got mature themes dealing with them in a juvenile way is pretty hard, possible but hard and when you do its glaringly obvious because you’ll get the mother of all wrong feelings as you see it. So I guess you’ll have no trouble pointing out what you’re refering too. Saying (proof: Gw2) doesnt really tell anything to anyone. Be specific.

The definition of a grind-fest MMORPG: One where you kill the same monster tens of thousands of times to gain a single level (because each kill is giving you .00001 experience out of a 100) and be able to use that new weapon you got, then die accidentally (or to another player who decided to kill you) and DE-level and no longer be able to use that weapon and have to do it over again. See-9dragons.

Those were the days.

Galen Grey.4709:

When you got mature themes dealing with them in a juvenile way is pretty hard, possible but hard and when you do its glaringly obvious because you’ll get the mother of all wrong feelings as you see it. So I guess you’ll have no trouble pointing out what you’re refering too. Saying (proof: Gw2) doesnt really tell anything to anyone. Be specific.

I disagree, it’s far easier to deal with mature themes in a juvenile way than it is in a mature way. Which have you heard more of in your life; Holocaust survivor stories or holocaust jokes? You see, people often choose juvenile because it’s far easier, far less thought provoking, and takes far less effort.

if you want specific GW2 examples, I’ll provide you with the events at Claw Island. A thinly developed character, painted in certain arcs as a goofball, needlessly sacrifices them self for no conceivable gain. Sacrificing your life for someone else’s is a powerful mature theme, yet the way GW2 handled it was essentially just doing it because it was expected, which is quite juvenile.

Magister Sieran: The dragon’s servants will never let our ships sail. If they surround the docks, they’ll slaughter us— and Zhaitan’s forces will grow.
<Character name>: Our soldiers are too injured to fight. They can barely walk. We can’t form a defense and still get them all aboard.
Magister Sieran: Someone needs to hold them off and give everyone else time to escape. No, not someone. Me.
<Character name>: You can’t win against those monsters, Sieran! There are too many of them!
Magister Sieran: If I can keep them busy, it’s enough of a win for me. Gixx always said I was an exceptional troublemaker.
Magister Sieran: When you and I met, I didn’t think about anything but myself. I wanted fun, excitement, risks… I didn’t really care about others.
Magister Sieran: In my short life, you’ve taught me the most important lesson. Friends will go through anything for each other. That’s why I have to do this.
Magister Sieran: I’ve always wondered what it would be like to go to the mists. It’ll be an adventure…

I mean seriously, you think this dialogue is mature? It reads like a poorly written after-school special with the first two lines delivered expertly by Captain Exposition and his friend Mr. Obvious.

NewTrain.7549:

Galen Grey.4709:

When you got mature themes dealing with them in a juvenile way is pretty hard, possible but hard and when you do its glaringly obvious because you’ll get the mother of all wrong feelings as you see it. So I guess you’ll have no trouble pointing out what you’re refering too. Saying (proof: Gw2) doesnt really tell anything to anyone. Be specific.

I disagree, it’s far easier to deal with mature themes in a juvenile way than it is in a mature way. Which have you heard more of in your life; Holocaust survivor stories or holocaust jokes? You see, people often choose juvenile because it’s far easier, far less thought provoking, and takes far less effort.

if you want specific GW2 examples, I’ll provide you with the events at Claw Island. A thinly developed character, painted in certain arcs as a goofball, needlessly sacrifices them self for no conceivable gain. Sacrificing your life for someone else’s is a powerful mature theme, yet the way GW2 handled it was essentially just doing it because it was expected, which is quite juvenile.

Magister Sieran: The dragon’s servants will never let our ships sail. If they surround the docks, they’ll slaughter us— and Zhaitan’s forces will grow.
<Character name>: Our soldiers are too injured to fight. They can barely walk. We can’t form a defense and still get them all aboard.
Magister Sieran: Someone needs to hold them off and give everyone else time to escape. No, not someone. Me.
<Character name>: You can’t win against those monsters, Sieran! There are too many of them!
Magister Sieran: If I can keep them busy, it’s enough of a win for me. Gixx always said I was an exceptional troublemaker.
Magister Sieran: When you and I met, I didn’t think about anything but myself. I wanted fun, excitement, risks… I didn’t really care about others.
Magister Sieran: In my short life, you’ve taught me the most important lesson. Friends will go through anything for each other. That’s why I have to do this.
Magister Sieran: I’ve always wondered what it would be like to go to the mists. It’ll be an adventure…

I mean seriously, you think this dialogue is mature? It reads like a poorly written after-school special with the first two lines delivered expertly by Captain Exposition and his friend Mr. Obvious.

It’s pretty terrible, but then I don’t think Tybalt did it any better. Forgal . . . I haven’t brought myself to the point of wanting to do that yet.

More mature is the conversation around the medic camp in Dry Top. “We need to do something with the bodies…” comes to mind, though the majority of the feel comes from how the voice acting lent it the hesitant air of “I really don’t want to be talking about this, but we need to discuss it”.

Of course, in the same zone there was Prosperity which felt like a cheap imitation of Deadwood (the HBO series) which itself was somewhat of a immature sort of look at things on the surface. (Underneath the veneer of immaturity, it was better than it looked but…)

Anyway.

Yeah, it could be better off but you know what? I’m more annoyed at other things in the story to start ripping it apart over every “not mature” place. I survived GW1 and it’s terribleness with Prophecies. (Also can be called “Guild Wars: Sacrificial Lambs and Transparently Evil People”)

Nobody ever seems to mention Zott and Elli. Then again, I don’t recall ever seeing them before last night when my NPE ele ran the missions which featured them. Anyway, I enjoyed the characters, more than a lot of the characters our commanders encounter along the way, but anet was a little too (ahem) transparent with the denouement, never mind some psych noogies along the way.

Tachenon.5270:

Nobody ever seems to mention Zott and Elli. Then again, I don’t recall ever seeing them before last night when my NPE ele ran the missions which featured them. Anyway, I enjoyed the characters, more than a lot of the characters our commanders encounter along the way, but anet was a little too (ahem) transparent with the denouement, never mind some psych noogies along the way.

Were they only on asuran personal story, because that’d explain why I didn’t know about them.

I’ve done about the majority of the Human chapters, one slice of Charr, two slices of Norn. I really liked a lot of the characters, and the writing, for most of these parts. (Even the humorous “I blacked out at the moot and lost a charr siege machine” my norn got into.)

Nah, Agent Zott helps retake Claw Island – he’s the one that does the redirect thing with the lighthouse. He shows up again in the level 80 missions along with Elli (the asura hologram girl!) leading up to the final mission. You have to go with the naval assault stuff — which evidently I’d never done before last night! I got a rare level 80 ‘Navy Badge’ with choosable stats, too. Unfortunately, I already had something better. But it was still cool.