Guild Wars 2

plasmacutter.2709:

Then why are “rock” “scissors” and “paper” all saying engineer over and over again?

Khallis.5708:

yep its all subjective thats why MOST are saying Ranger or Engineer mostly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

A belief widely held by a “majority” (read: by the same 20-30 players on the forums) is not necessarily true just because a lot of people happen to be saying it.

This is why balance suggestions by the community are rarely acknowledged, much less followed to the letter. Because everyone’s riding the bandwagons and offering their own subjective opinions in lieu of actual data and numbers. There’s no discussion value in subjectivity.

If you can provide a concrete, numerical proof of something being underpowered by comparison to another class, then you have a real case. “Engineer sux because I tried it and I don’t do much damage” isn’t a strong case because that could boil down to bad stats, bad gear, you being terrible at the class, and many other things.

Mind, I’m not saying anything regarding how strong the classes are or aren’t, so please spare me the “lol you think the game is fine, you fanboi you”. I don’t think the game is fine, not even a little bit. I’m simply pointing out that if any of you actually want changes to be made to your class of choice, you might want to provide some actual statistics to verify your case.

Allow me to demonstrate with an example of one imbalance I’ve noticed in the game: I believe that the Warrior’s longbow is, in many ways, superior to a Ranger’s. To prove this, a comparison of the skill sets.

Warrior’s default attack has a significantly faster firing rate but only loses 17 damage per shot at comparable range, which means the Warrior deals 282.67 DPS to the Ranger’s 183.2 DPS. The Ranger’s one advantage in this case is range, where they deal 317 per hit rather than 229, but their slower firing rate drags that back down to only 253.6 DPS….still lower than the Warrior’s damage. A ranger should not only have the advantage in distance but also in damage, especially on a bow which is one of the ranger’s specialties.

In addition, while the Ranger’s longbow continues to shoot further than the Warrior’s, the skills are all inferior in one way or another.

For example, the Ranger’s Rapid Fire skill has a longer cooldown and cast speed than Fan of Fire, yet at close range, is far inferior in terms of raw damage (FoF deals more damage in burning alone than Rapid Fire’s entire 10-arrow clip of damage, 1968 vs 1320).

Furthermore, the Warrior’s bow has better AoE and more of it, leaving the Ranger’s longbow rather woefully inadequate by comparison. Considering that the Ranger’s typical trademark weapon is their bow, this seems grossly inappropriate.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is that the devs assume that a player will be compensating for the lost damage with their pet, but that is generally not the case as the pet suffers from poor AI and an inability to dodge and evade as players would. My suggestion would be to lower the damage of the pet to less than the 40% mark originally estimated, and significantly raise the damage of the player’s own skills to compensate.

See? It’s really not that hard, and it gives the devs some solid figures to look at and say “hm, that does look sort of off-target”. If you just say “class sux, buff pl0x”, they don’t know what to fix and why you want it fixed, so how can you expect them to fix it?

I’ve gotten a warrior and ranger to 80 and the warrior is so much better than the ranger it makes me sad I wasted so much time on the ranger. I wish rangers could get the option to ditch the pet and increase their personal damage output. The pets are a liability in pve and pvp.

NDiggy.8143:

I’ve gotten a warrior and ranger to 80 and the warrior is so much better than the ranger it makes me sad I wasted so much time on the ranger. I wish rangers could get the option to ditch the pet and increase their personal damage output. The pets are a liability in pve and pvp.

Yeah, I feel the same way about my engineer.

critickitten.1498:

plasmacutter.2709:

Then why are “rock” “scissors” and “paper” all saying engineer over and over again?

Khallis.5708:

yep its all subjective thats why MOST are saying Ranger or Engineer mostly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

A belief widely held by a “majority” (read: by the same 20-30 players on the forums) is not necessarily true just because a lot of people happen to be saying it.

This is why balance suggestions by the community are rarely acknowledged, much less followed to the letter. Because everyone’s riding the bandwagons and offering their own subjective opinions in lieu of actual data and numbers. There’s no discussion value in subjectivity. * snip *

Unfortunately Argumentum Ad Populum can only be invoked when you’re arguing about something measurable in objective fact.

This is a game.

A game’s success is measured by how much fun people have, and by its reception by the population playing it.

Ergo:
If the majority of people offering feedback all say the same thing about a certain aspect of the game being deficient, it is deficient by the game’s criteria for success.

It’s one thing to have even a significant minority disagreeing, but in this case everyone agrees. Even thieves who just love their ego petting are saying “man, I feel sorry for engineers/rangers”.

When a specific class in a game becomes the running euphamism for “rock bottom” among its community, that profession most definitely has a problem!

As for engineers, the opinion is crystal clear: they’re supposed to be versatile, but they:
A – have no unique niche
B – can’t measure up when fulfilling the niches of others
C – don’t deal nearly enough damage compared to whatever comparable build there is for other professions.

Their playstyle is highly dynamic, and good in concept, but the execution is lacking, and heavily tilted toward kit combat at this time.

Those professions with the lowest uptake would probably indicate a real weakness in AN global terms….GW2census.com indicates that may be the Engineer (10.8%), the Necro (11.1%) and the Ranger (12.3%). Then the review might also look at toning down some as well as boosting those under performing…I am not going to point fingers.

http://gw2census.com/charts.php?pie=total÷=charprofession

necros engys rangers and eles all need to be fixed. I tried kitten hard to keep my necro as my main. They’re just terrible though. It drives me nuts that A-net doesnt say anything about this stuff. They just release ridiculous looking quaggan backpacks to distract players from that fact that over half of their classes suck bad and they’re doing nothing about it.

Neros, they need damage boost on everything except dagger main hand. Condition like bleed is very weak, going toe to toe against a warrior or guardian you will get pwn, in group fight the ony thing you will be useful for is epidemic.

One of the main problems with ranger now and that goes with necro is the AI, ranger pets die VERY quickly even if you are full BM, make pets immune to aoe and you will see how much damage a ranger can dish out.

I think the Ranger could use a bit of a combat tweak. Some Rangers are truely Marksmen, and do not use pets at all. Take a gander at the Warden Scouts in the Grove and everywhere else there are Sylvari NPCs. Some of the Wardens have Fern Hound pets, but most don’t have any pets at all. I think Marksmanship/Skirmishing traited Rangers should have an option to stow their pets during combat.

Engineer in my opinion.

Its not only a class that needs rework.

All classes need massive rework, but not cause of class mechanics mostly, but much more in generel due to the skill system and the trait system which need by far a real good rework/balancing.

Also the underwater gameplay for all classes needs a rework.. where claases on land are powerful, they all become under water so extreme weak, its no fun to fight under water at all compared to land battles. In pve often its annyoing as hell, when enemies under water lose out of a sudden aggro to you, flee from you and completely start instantly regenerating in massive speed their health back due to some not yet fixed bug..

Anet should change the skill system so, that there are absolutely NO skills, which can’t be used under water..every skill you can use on ladn should either work under water 100% exactly the same, or should change its design, when beign under water, like tornado for example does, changing into maelstrom if you use it under water..thats the way how all skills in GW2 should work and if there are skills, that Anet canät redesign into something, that wil work also similar or same under water, then kick the crap out and replace it with new better skills, that will do the changing feature and work on land as like under water.

Then will have all classes automatically also more builds, especially for under water gameplay…
Elite Skills needs an important redesign, most of them aren’t absolutely worthy to be called an Elite at all… where the hell is beign an tornado elite, when you can get easily killed within seconds being a god kitten tornado, that should protect you from any damage in the time, because you should HURL UP EVERYTHING In YOUR NEAR AND TOOS IT INTO THE AIR – i don’t get it …, no instead you transfrom into a mighty tornado and seconds later you are dead in WvW – where the hell is that please anyhow epic and in any way elite? It isn’t, where should be protection against any crowd control skills be helpful, if that silly skill doesn#t even protect you against any kind of damage >.< its just one of many extrem uncreative and useless “elite skills”, but the very best underwhelming useless elite is basilisk poison….

Elite skills really need to become alot more again like they worked in GW1 with like maximum recharge times of 60 to maximum 120 seconds and not higher, anythign higher is way too long…

WvW needs massive reworking, that gameplay mode must massively increase the motivation for palyers to zerg in the game way much lesser and to make more smaller groups. by encouraging players to make better more smaller groups instead of massive zergs running around like trains on trails, the game would have then also much lesser problems there with culling, if people would spread over the map much more in smaller groups.

Whereever you look at important points that are part of the games balancing, the game needs alot of reworking and redesign just EVERYWHERE, because everything gets heavily influenced by the new skill and trait system in the first line.

Balancing also AoE skills and buffing more single target skills will surely also help at certain points balancing the classes all in the end…

But if i had to call out for now 1 single class, which i personally would redesign first, then it owuld be the RANGER, then the thief as results of redesigning the ranger, cause of making the ranger the thief’s most fearful counter class as rangers should be able to discover enemies in stealth, by using some kind of trait, that lets pets make stealthed enemies visible again or makes stealthed enemies in general visible for them, if they are in a certain range to them, as rangers have sharper eyes to see things and their pets can smell everything….

ranger pets suck…die to fast should have their own heal etc

why cant we just have a petless ranger type back again.

I, too, would like to see the return of the petless ranger, as my ‘first edition’ GW rangers seldom brought their pets along on their adventures. Another quibble: having played a warrior to 31 and a ranger to 34, I sometimes feel that a longbow warrior is a better ranger than a ranger.

I would also like for necromancers to have the option to dismiss their minions.

However, I would say that the profession most in need of revision is the Ritualist. In its current form, it is quite simply unplayable. I won’t even try creating a Ritualist character until something is done to bring this profession up to par.

^ I can’t tell if its a troll or typo when he/she says ‘Ritualist’, you might want to check that Tachenon.

I´ve only played guardian, Mesmer and Engineer up to lvl 80, yet, and have been often watching my friend on his warrior (so my sight of the warrior might be subjective)

Guardian is great in PvE. Can´t argue that… Okay, maybe a bit boring at times, but still awesome.
Needs no big help

Mesmer is super nice in PvP but needs a little help in PvE. Not much, just a little bit (note: yes, I´ve tried both. PvE and PvP)
Needs maybe a bit help PvE-wise

Engineer….. Most fun class I´ve played until now. BUT… To do as much damage as my warrior friend in TANKgear (PVT) and axes I have to use every trick in the book, stack might as crazy and go full glasscannon gear-wise… and be left with almost no survivability.
I think the issue is, that engineer has to trait too much into certain areas to do anything useful. Simply giving engineer kits and thus a package of skills is no versatility.
Dang, help this class! So much potencial, yet nothing can be made out of it.

Warrior… PvE-wise he´s a god. My friend can go afk on a boss fight where I have to use 110% of my skill as engineer. Most PvE-damage, most toughness and as much Vit as a necro.
Only trade-off: Heck, I can´t comprehend how people can actually have fun with such a boring class….
And dont get me started on those 4-warrior-1xxx-groups…
… PvE-wise they need reverse-help… if you know what I mean… (but still this one is only subjective)

The problem is people seem to think that all classes should be so equal that the only difference is the visual effects or the type of skill (not the damage). It’s great how the thief plays different from the warrior, the warrior from the guardian, the guardian from the mesmer etc. People need to explore the options and pick one existing class that best suits them; not make the developers change an existing class to fit them.

90% or more of QQ’ing is L2P.

Guardian mobility in alot of specs needs a complete revamp. Some access to effective cripple would be nice too considering playing chase the mouse regardless of build is just boring.

Engineer needs whatever it had done to it in the last major patch revoked because I barely see them these days :/

Necro as above, but the class is boring too. It probably needs the most reworking of all.

D/D ele shouldnt be the only viable spec. It needs its survivability vs damage toned town in that stance. Buff staff.

Warrior needs improved damage distribution over its weapon sets. Eviscerate or 100b and then omg ‘Im a warrior get me out of here!’ technique isnt fun for them.

Thief needs more fun factor, and build diversity generally.

In short mainly pvp changes from a pvper’s persepctive and I’ve left out the few professions I havent tried. Game needs alot of work imo.

I could argue that mesmers need a bit of assistance – how ever it could be argued they are over powered.

Ranger could use some tlc.
i have 2 80 rangers 0/0/30/10/30 condition build and a 20/30/0/0/20 glass cannon build.
i can hardly tell the difference in damage between the ranger with 300 power and the 1 with out any in power.
the 30/10/30 build uses carrion gear and weapons. the gc build uses berzerker chest,pants and the rest rampager gear.
even though the gc build has 64% precision the crits are just not there.
it hits like a wet noodle.
i don’t have any problem with pets as long as i use the right 1 for the job and have it traited correctly in the tree.
pets do need aoe resistance because evidently they’re color blind can’t see the red circles.
they can’t dodge either doh.
i don’t think any class needs a nerf i think that they should put away the nerf bat and buff the weak spots.
all in all i like the play style of the ranger in gw2 it just needs a buff or 2.

I have three rangers. They all rock.

One is a faberge cannon using longbow. 20k barrage. 2-2.5k per autoattack. 10k total on rapid fire. All with piercing and all from 1500 range. Close to thief-like burst damage but without the whole being in melee range risky part. (fyi: this toon gets more of my WvW badges than any other, and I do have every single class and built for WvW)

One is a tank ranger with kitty from hell. This is sneaky fun in PvP as people just assume pets are harmless and kill the ranger first and whatever. Thing is, my ranger is really hard to kill while the kitty is traited and buffed to hell and back. Also, it’s funny as hell to sit out of range of the arrow cart as your kitty cat goes and claws the cart’s operator’s eyes out.

Third ranger is a condition damage build that I decided to goof off with because in testing the previous two builds, I was always stacking bleeds without trying. Add in poison and fire traps, and you have a lot of options. Plus, you still have your pet to take a few shots for ya.

ErraticFaith.9142:

Guardian mobility in alot of specs needs a complete revamp. Some access to effective cripple would be nice too considering playing chase the mouse regardless of build is just boring.

Engineer needs whatever it had done to it in the last major patch revoked because I barely see them these days :/

Necro as above, but the class is boring too. It probably needs the most reworking of all.

D/D ele shouldnt be the only viable spec. It needs its survivability vs damage toned town in that stance. Buff staff.

Warrior needs improved damage distribution over its weapon sets. Eviscerate or 100b and then omg ‘Im a warrior get me out of here!’ technique isnt fun for them.

Thief needs more fun factor, and build diversity generally.

In short mainly pvp changes from a pvper’s persepctive and I’ve left out the few professions I havent tried. Game needs alot of work imo.

Very Synthetic, but its all true. nothing else to say.

I think Necro. Necro is okay, but not many good builds (only thing I found remotely useful was well build, obviously). And a lot of things seem to work incorrectly, moreso minions are not so good, they go off and aggro stuff on their own and die or make me have to kill it. >.<

I find my Ele pretty good, but I will agree that Eles are super squishy in the surviviability department and you have to make the choice of gearing out in defensive or being even more squishy. I feel I survive pretty good though with the array of stuff given to us. But not the best. I feel its expected with the class personally, but even as staff build I feel like I am not near the same level as others, even with my poor defense.

Personally I find the engineer great fun. I find it versatile and very effective. I have played Thief, Engineer and Guardian to level 80 and found them all to be effective in PVE and WvW.

I think a big part of this game is finding a build that suits your playstyle. If you cannot find that build for the profession of your choice you will feel it is lacking. But I am sure there are many who have found builds that suit them and do find them effective. I certainly do not think any of them need a complete revision, as some have suggested. They merely need a few tweaks here and there.

For me personally, every profession I have played I have found fun and effective builds for them.

Ranger. They also probably have the most bugs and the worst Traits. For God’s sake, their class mechanic hardly functions and they’re crippled with out it. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

When a person get’s rejected from a Fractal/Dungeon group because they are a Ranger and they’d prefer to have a Warrior/Guardian/Mesmer/Thief, something’s seriously wrong.

My sympathies go out to Necro’s and Engineer’s though. We’re getting held down by “The Mans” pet system.

All but guardian, sadly.

^ guardian is bad in 1vs1.

at least vs
thieves, mesmers and eles.
the whole wvw is filled with them…

i dont know.. make the stealth show just a slight visual (blur) effect only so that its not totally stupid.
as a guardian i dont like pvp, i play thieves and mesmers.

Avatar.1923:

^ guardian is bad in 1vs1.

at least vs
thieves, mesmers and eles.
the whole wvw is filled with them…

i dont know.. make the stealth show just a slight visual (blur) effect only so that its not totally stupid.
as a guardian i dont like pvp, i play thieves and mesmers.

Guardians arent bad on 1v1, but they lack of some mechaninc to reduce heavy kiting.(and on WvW this is really annoying.)
Just from devs concept, guardians are not supposed to be a mobile class or a good ranged class, so the only option they really need is a more accessible slowdown condition, like cripple.

I really hope this thread (and others like it) actually has an effect in the form of updates.

As an Ele player, we desperately need viable build variety. Considering that the Ele’s designed to be a versatile profession, it’s a sad joke that D/D bunker is our ONE truly viable build. We need to bring Scepter and Focus (and Staff auto-attack and Air attunement) skills in line with Dagger skills. We need a rework of our Trait lines so we’re not constantly compelled to go at LEAST 20/20 in Water and Arcana. At the very least we need a damage buff to compensate for our lack of survivability, ESPECIALLY if D/D ends up being nerfed. And last but not least, we need better ELITES! The elemental is decent, but hardly epic. Tornado is like plastering a huge “HIT ME!” sign onto yourself, while losing your skills and attunements. Greatsword is meh; the fact that you lose out on your attunements while holding it gimps its effectiveness.

Granted, we’re not quite in the bind that Rangers, Engis and Necros are in…but if D/D is nerfed and no significant buffs are granted to us, we will be.

When I think of revision I think of mostly redoing everything only 2 professions need a revision imo.
1. Ranger and Necro, they have features that are just too buggy and really need to be reworked especially pet/minion AI. I really hate playing my ranger because my pet annoys me so much by having spazzing out movements especially with speed boosts. Necro, what can I say…when I play my necro I feel like an unloved child.
2. Engineer, they don’t need a revision just a huge major kitten buff. I really like this profession and it’s pretty interesting to play just does so kitten damage and not very good support.
3. Eles- only 1 “viable” build lol? I’m only forced to use staff during boss fights where I need to be far away…scepter erm yeah, would be “kinda” good if anything actually hit the target.
4. Guardians- need more options for long range or just a buff to staff and scepter.

The rest of the professions need minor(major?) buffs to most weapon sets.

Ganzo.5079:

Avatar.1923:

^ guardian is bad in 1vs1.

at least vs
thieves, mesmers and eles.
the whole wvw is filled with them…

i dont know.. make the stealth show just a slight visual (blur) effect only so that its not totally stupid.
as a guardian i dont like pvp, i play thieves and mesmers.

Guardians arent bad on 1v1, but they lack of some mechaninc to reduce heavy kiting.(and on WvW this is really annoying.)
Just from devs concept, guardians are not supposed to be a mobile class or a good ranged class, so the only option they really need is a more accessible slowdown condition, like cripple.

it makes sense.
i just feel that for the high mobility and aoe and ranged attack required in WvW, guards just dont cut it.
and if you spec to get those, then your kitten in all the essential guard stuff like the self heal.

Lunar Sunset.8742:

3. Eles- only 1 “viable” build lol? I’m only forced to use staff during boss fights where I need to be far away…

Yeah, I’m sorry, I probably shouldn’t have said “one truly viable build.” What I meant is that while S/D or S/F builds are certainly fun and situationally viable, they are outstripped by D/D. Scepter is gimped because you have to work so hard to ensure the big attacks even hit, and Focus, while having some great defensive skills, cannot compete with the mobility that offhand Dagger affords. Staff is obviously great for events, boss fights and WvW, but it’s sub-optimal to do solo PvE (i.e. the majority of PvE) with a Staff.

I’m not the most experienced Ele player though, so others can correct me if I’m wrong.