Guild Wars 2

Here’s a list of all events taking place in the Living World season 3 maps:

source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Events

As you can see, they were basically all sorted by 3 major types of activities: Defeat, Escort/Protect and Gather. Dynamic events were always considered to a substitute for traditional quest in GW2. Here are some points being used in traditional quests – which events simply can’t provide:

• Solving mysteries, riddles. Letters you have to decrypt by combining hints found somewhere; stealth missions: find a way to sneak into a building without being noticed; Characters that went missing or act suspiciously – you have to find out what happened to them, what they’re up to and who is involved by asking other characters and looking for hints in the area. Also: how to achieve something by manipulating certain characters and processes – tactical thinking.

• Multiple choices. Decisions with a real impact on the story and your character + other characters. Decide whom you can trust, if you want to be honest, greedy or naive. The story will have a different outcome accordingly.

• Personality. And that’s a major point. Do you remember which legion your Charr character belongs to? Which order you chose? Which god did your humans choose and what’s the back-story of your character? Where did you come from, who are your friends and enemies? Doesn’t matter, you’re doing the same events as everyone else, no matter if you’re a human, Charr, Sylvari, Norn or Asura. Defeat this enemy because he’s evil. Defend this ally because he’s good.
  You’ll never find out who your character really is, how he would act according to his backstory and whom he would help.

Events can be used to bring people together and make maps feel alive. However, because of their nature (everyone can participate no matter what character), they’re completely anonymous – there’s no personal involvement or identification going on.
Taking the events of season 3 as an example, their design is also pretty frontal, with the majority being listed as “Defeat”-events. There’s no room for stealth missions, solving mysteries or thinking about intrigues. Almost every event consists of: is it evil? Yes? Kill it.

Yes, I know there are games with boring quests. The points mentioned above should demonstrate that (complex) quests could definitely have a fixed place in GW2 because events can only cover content to a certain extent in a certain way. Events are great for group content and quests could provide a more complex, in depth, personal sort of content.
Every system has its flaws and that’s why they should try to find a balance between events and quests. The “current events” sometimes provided something similar (Burden of choice achievement e.g.) but sadly, they’re being developed pretty sporadically.

Events where what was originally planed to exist as leveling fodder. Hearts where added as feedback said players did not understand how to proceed with just events.

They are not now or in the future going to get rid of events. Story is the only quest you are going to get.

Correction: Events will never replace the type of quests that you want

Quests in many games have been fairly dull and involve pretty much the same activities. You either go kill something or you go fetch something. These are no different from the events that we currently have now.

Events used to be a bit more complicated than that. Nów they are very simple and stripped from story. Other than that there are more things to do in the game than just the events. Like living story episodes that are very similar to quests. Or achievements that are getting more and more similar to original mmo style quests.

I disagree. There are some central Tyria events that require you to acquire a particular transformation to proceed, as well as many in Heart of Maguuma that are based around objectives entirely different from the ones you mentioned.

They can bring everything quests brought us. Anet just chooses not to do this with the LWS3 map events.

This is a pointless thread title. Instead of saying what events cant provide it really should point out what events currently dont provide and can improve on through other storytelling channels.

Working within the limits of Guild Wars 2 is better than designing a completely new system for it.

Plus ofcourse there will be more support for your ideas if your idea doesnt demand a new system. People on this forum act on criticism like its an allergy.

Yargesh.4965:

Events where what was originally planed to exist as leveling fodder. Hearts where added as feedback said players did not understand how to proceed with just events.

They are not now or in the future going to get rid of events. Story is the only quest you are going to get.

No one was talking about getting rid of events.

Ayrilana.1396:

Correction: Events will never replace the type of quests that you want

Quests in many games have been fairly dull and involve pretty much the same activities. You either go kill something or you go fetch something. These are no different from the events that we currently have now.

I agree to an extent because there are really games that actually do the same thing in quests. But on the other hand, why would I even beg for these boring “kill this, gather that” quests if they’re basically the same as events now? I would rather suggest more complex and versatile ‘runescape’ quests to show that they’ve got a lot of potential and could be a nice addition to events.

Jak.6049:

I disagree. There are some central Tyria events that require you to acquire a particular transformation to proceed, as well as many in Heart of Maguuma that are based around objectives entirely different from the ones you mentioned.

They can bring everything quests brought us. Anet just chooses not to do this with the LWS3 map events.

Since you’ve got a pretty strong opinion on the topic, would you mind showing us some specific examples referring to your statement?

I do remember 4 events in Caledon Forest which demanded you to transform into a drake/crab/moa/jellyfish in order to fight a Hylek. These events would be put into the category “Other” as they’re not just a “Defeat” event. Yes, there are events that are unique and special. However, as you look through the events in each zone, the vast majority will require you to defeat A, escort/protect B or gather C.

Since there are no events that could provide the three points mentioned in the initial post, I’d like to know your opinion on how they could manage to do that. Unless there’s not a certain example, I disagree with your second to last sentence. Events can not provide everything that quests could do.

FrizzFreston.5290:

This is a pointless thread title. Instead of saying what events cant provide it really should point out what events currently dont provide and can improve on through other storytelling channels.

Working within the limits of Guild Wars 2 is better than designing a completely new system for it.

Plus ofcourse there will be more support for your ideas if your idea doesnt demand a new system. People on this forum act on criticism like its an allergy.

The thread was meant to be more like an approach on the theoretical side of events and quests in comparison. In the last paragraph I also mentioned the attempt of creating achievements that returned to a more traditional quest design. But it’s very unlikely that we’ll ever see the same sort and amount of quests in GW2 as in other MMORPG’s, so it’s all just theoretical.

Honestly, of all the tons of issues GW2 has compared to other MMOs, events instead of quests is really not one I’d list there. In general, they work out more than fine, removing much of the artifical-theme-park feel, and instead asking you to just explore, walk around, and feel like you’re part of a fantasy world. Two thumbs up…

… that is, until we get to (as you listed in the top post) the terrible terrible maps the LS3 brought us so far, full of uninspired, unnecessary and frankly insulting events, evidence of the strict clock on which these map must be produced.

It gets worse because there are the repeatable hearts, with elements such as “plant flowers around the town”. Something which could have made for a neat little non-combat event around the town, after liberating it improving how it looks or something, part of a nice large chain.

Alas, probably due to time constraints – something the maps reek of, everywhere; for being permanent additions they feel entirely temporary, as if they were never meant to stay around – the interesting mechanics were gathered up and pushed onto the hearts so there’s no need to build event scripts for them, while events are just copy&paste generic things over and over.

I don’t know… I mean, on the one hand I disagree. Events are awesome. Much more fun than Quests for me. On the other, the specific 5 maps you picked? Yeah… they make me want my WoW Quests back, agreed.

You may not be talking about getting rid of events but you cannot have both (just based on workload/hours needed). So your only real choice is how you would like to improve events.

I see quests in this game and they are more like the cat gathering thing hidden.

Couple of quick examples from top of my head:

• Answer Raven’s Riddles in norn starting area. (event)
• Mount Maelstrom map, even where you transform into animal (moa, dolyak, rabbit) to go gather stuff inside cave with angry ghosts.
• Timberlake (iirc) south end, event chain that tells a funny story of asura and human researchers researching Ettins, while each separate event is nothing new, the combination and story telling combines into something greater.

They do make some good events, but a good bunch of them are meant to be just filler for people to do to get xp etc. In short, a bit similar to most games quests, that are there just to give generic XP.

I do agree that I’d like to see more complicated and different events. And will be following this thread with interest. Just want to clear out that not all the events are the same.

Edit: should mention that the general quality of the “launch” materials tend to be richer in terms of creativity and variety. Not a big surprise that later content aren’t quite up to that level.

joneirikb.7506:

Couple of quick examples from top of my head:

• Answer Raven’s Riddles in norn starting area. (event)
• Mount Maelstrom map, even where you transform into animal (moa, dolyak, rabbit) to go gather stuff inside cave with angry ghosts.
• Timberlake (iirc) south end, event chain that tells a funny story of asura and human researchers researching Ettins, while each separate event is nothing new, the combination and story telling combines into something greater.

They do make some good events, but a good bunch of them are meant to be just filler for people to do to get xp etc. In short, a bit similar to most games quests, that are there just to give generic XP.

I do agree that I’d like to see more complicated and different events. And will be following this thread with interest. Just want to clear out that not all the events are the same.

Edit: should mention that the general quality of the “launch” materials tend to be richer in terms of creativity and variety. Not a big surprise that later content aren’t quite up to that level.

Also got the shrine of the cat in norn starting area were you can ask npc to transform you to a cat.

For me, the big advantage of events over classic questing is that you are free to play, skip, or repeat events as you like. I’m playing a quest-centric mmo on the side, and playing through the same quests with several characters really turns me off of that (otherwise really nice) game. With events, I’m free to choose whether to involve myself into the story or just skip it in favor of something different to do.

We do have “classic” quests in the stories we get (personal, HoT, Living Story), and they often are a lot more involved than events and/or hearts, but they also run into the same trap classic quests do: play through them with several characters and you are bound to get bored with them sooner or later.

If you are a one-character player that point doesn’t matter as you aren’t likely to play through the story several times anyway, but this game excells at content for people who enjoy playing many different characters, and the event system is one of the points that make it stand out on that front.

I seem to recall that in the announcement for HoT they said “we want to make a game where you enjoy meeting other players”. That unfortunately rules out open-world puzzles for the most part. Have you ever tried getting the coordinates for Portmatt’s laboratory right, while a random clueless stranger wanders in and messes up the seettings? Most kinds of puzzles aren’t easy to scale for various amounts of participants, and even harder to coordinate between random strangers strolling by, which I suspect is the main reason we mostly only get those in stories and instanced group content.

I like this game because it allows me to play with as many or as few people as happen to be around, no matter if they are friends or total strangers, and the event system we’ve got works great for that. That other game I mentioned goes the way of quest choices changing the world for good, and even just playing through with my husband it is a huge bother, with npcs (dis-)appearing and questlines only available to one of us constantly.

I’m sure there are many people that would prefer classic story quests and lasting consequences, but (even if I hate repeating what’s been said so often) there are many games out that catering to that kind of gameplay. I love GW2 for allowing me a flexible gameplay experience with all my different characters as well as different people, and our event system is next to perfect for that.

I don’t think the OP was trying to say that they wanted events replaced with personal quests. I think the actual statement was that ArenaNet has been completely neglecting personal character development (as initiated by the personal story) in favor of events, which is never a good thing in a MMO*RPG* for the RPG part is completely being ignored.

Soon people will turn from MMOs to traditional pen & paper again, because they miss the excitement of adventuring and character progress.

joneirikb.7506:

Couple of quick examples from top of my head:

• Answer Raven’s Riddles in norn starting area. (event)
• Mount Maelstrom map, even where you transform into animal (moa, dolyak, rabbit) to go gather stuff inside cave with angry ghosts.
• Timberlake (iirc) south end, event chain that tells a funny story of asura and human researchers researching Ettins, while each separate event is nothing new, the combination and story telling combines into something greater.

They do make some good events, but a good bunch of them are meant to be just filler for people to do to get xp etc. In short, a bit similar to most games quests, that are there just to give generic XP.

I do agree that I’d like to see more complicated and different events. And will be following this thread with interest. Just want to clear out that not all the events are the same.

Edit: should mention that the general quality of the “launch” materials tend to be richer in terms of creativity and variety. Not a big surprise that later content aren’t quite up to that level.

Thank you for posting a few examples. Alright so we’ve got the raven riddle event in Wayfarer Foothills, you’re right. If you find more events of the same type, you can add them later on. Let’s compare it to the original post:

Tekey.7946:

• Solving mysteries, riddles. Letters you have to decrypt by combining hints found somewhere; stealth missions: find a way to sneak into a building without being noticed; Characters that went missing or act suspiciously – you have to find out what happened to them, what they’re up to and who is involved by asking other characters and looking for hints in the area. Also: how to achieve something by manipulating certain characters and processes – tactical thinking.

I’ve now removed the word ‘riddles’ from the list as it’s been provided in an event. Everything else however, remains as it is. You’re neither getting a mysterious letter, nor the chance for a stealth mission or investigation of intrigues created by the citizens of Divinity’s Reach or the like in an event.

Linken.6345:

Also got the shrine of the cat in norn starting area were you can ask npc to transform you to a cat.

I’ll add the ‘transform’ events both of you mentioned to the one that can be found in Caledon Forest. But I seriously don’t know to which of my points they are referring:

• Solving mysteries
• Multiple choices
• Personality

As well as the Timberlake event chain which sounds nice, but it isn’t connected to any of the points listed above.

I know that events are not all the same, that’s why there’s always some space in the category “Other” for events that don’t fit into Defeat, Escort/Protect and Gather. But the discussion is not about whether there are some events that are fun to play. It’s really just about the three unique points of traditional quests which can’t be provided by events. But you may post other events that do refer to the points if you like and we’ll look if they’re comparable to the according quests.

Ashantara.8731:

I don’t think the OP was trying to say that they wanted events replaced with personal quests. I think the actual statement was that ArenaNet has been completely neglecting personal character development (as initiated by the personal story) in favor of events, which is never a good thing in a MMO*RPG* for the RPG part is completely being ignored.

Soon people will turn from MMOs to traditional pen & paper again, because they miss the excitement of adventuring and character progress.

That’s a nice addition to my points and a good description of how I feel like, thank you.

Sounds to me like Living Story Chapters and current events are in fact quests like you describe. Events will never completely eliminate quests. However, I recently did a quest that was a current event to get a legendary weapon that included some of everything.

And of course, if you want puzzle solving, scavenger hunt type stuff, there’s stuff like collections, including the princess collection which is unlike any type of dynamic event.

Quests are already present in this game. Dynamic events are the other side of the equation.

OP is right though. There is no engagement with our characters. Nothing that makes them special or different from other characters. We need to be able to identify with them, care about them. Choices and different experiences would create more variety.

What about their background? Which legion did they chose as a charr? I agree completely with these.

It would be nice to have some variety with regards to the characters, is all I’m saying.

Ashantara.8731:

I don’t think the OP was trying to say that they wanted events replaced with personal quests. I think the actual statement was that ArenaNet has been completely neglecting personal character development (as initiated by the personal story) in favor of events, which is never a good thing in a MMO*RPG* for the RPG part is completely being ignored.

Soon people will turn from MMOs to traditional pen & paper again, because they miss the excitement of adventuring and character progress.

I agree. Imo, being Tyrian is like visiting Disneyland. You are shown so many incredible things, participate in great adventures; but the only way to include your personality is through the souvenir shop. There is something insincere about Tyrian agency. I always feel like a consumer of Tyria, not a builder of Tyria.

As others have said, the combination of events, hearts, collections, achievements, PS, LW, jumping puzzles, mini-dungeons, etc provide most of what traditional quests provide but with greater variety and depth. The exception being role playing. I think the superior quality and delivery of non-rp elements makes the lack of rp elements more pronounced.

With Home Instances, the studio has a way to provide and a place to put sincere role playing.

Ashantara.8731:

I don’t think the OP was trying to say that they wanted events replaced with personal quests. I think the actual statement was that ArenaNet has been completely neglecting personal character development (as initiated by the personal story) in favor of events, which is never a good thing in a MMO*RPG* for the RPG part is completely being ignored.

Soon people will turn from MMOs to traditional pen & paper again, because they miss the excitement of adventuring and character progress.

Personal character development isn’t a requirement for RPG’s. Personal character development was only present during the second story arc of the personal story (level 20). Nothing else touched on the player character’s background history. GW1 really had zero personal character development in the sense of background story as well. Instead both stories centered around the player character’s involvement in the events going on within the games.

Ayrilana.1396:

Ashantara.8731:

I don’t think the OP was trying to say that they wanted events replaced with personal quests. I think the actual statement was that ArenaNet has been completely neglecting personal character development (as initiated by the personal story) in favor of events, which is never a good thing in a MMO*RPG* for the RPG part is completely being ignored.

Soon people will turn from MMOs to traditional pen & paper again, because they miss the excitement of adventuring and character progress.

Personal character development isn’t a requirement for RPG’s. Personal character development was only present during the second story arc of the personal story (level 20). Nothing else touched on the player character’s background history. GW1 really had zero personal character development in the sense of background story as well. Instead both stories centered around the player character’s involvement in the events going on within the games.

Offering background story or variable story choices is only one flavor of ‘rp’ and ‘rp’ is a subset of player agency. I would argue that GW1’s sandbox profession mechanic and hero mechanic allowed player agency to function on a fundamental level.

Psientist.6437:

Ayrilana.1396:

Ashantara.8731:

I don’t think the OP was trying to say that they wanted events replaced with personal quests. I think the actual statement was that ArenaNet has been completely neglecting personal character development (as initiated by the personal story) in favor of events, which is never a good thing in a MMO*RPG* for the RPG part is completely being ignored.

Soon people will turn from MMOs to traditional pen & paper again, because they miss the excitement of adventuring and character progress.

Personal character development isn’t a requirement for RPG’s. Personal character development was only present during the second story arc of the personal story (level 20). Nothing else touched on the player character’s background history. GW1 really had zero personal character development in the sense of background story as well. Instead both stories centered around the player character’s involvement in the events going on within the games.

Offering background story or variable story choices is only one flavor of ‘rp’ and ‘rp’ is a subset of player agency. I would argue that GW1’s sandbox profession mechanic and hero mechanic allowed player agency to function on a fundamental level.

And what Anet has done with these games is another ‘flavor’.

Ayrilana.1396:

Personal character development isn’t a requirement for RPG’s. Personal character development was only present during the second story arc of the personal story (level 20). Nothing else touched on the player character’s background history. GW1 really had zero personal character development in the sense of background story as well. Instead both stories centered around the player character’s involvement in the events going on within the games.

Ayrilana.1396:

Psientist.6437:

Ayrilana.1396:

Ashantara.8731:

I don’t think the OP was trying to say that they wanted events replaced with personal quests. I think the actual statement was that ArenaNet has been completely neglecting personal character development (as initiated by the personal story) in favor of events, which is never a good thing in a MMO*RPG* for the RPG part is completely being ignored.

Soon people will turn from MMOs to traditional pen & paper again, because they miss the excitement of adventuring and character progress.

Personal character development isn’t a requirement for RPG’s. Personal character development was only present during the second story arc of the personal story (level 20). Nothing else touched on the player character’s background history. GW1 really had zero personal character development in the sense of background story as well. Instead both stories centered around the player character’s involvement in the events going on within the games.

Offering background story or variable story choices is only one flavor of ‘rp’ and ‘rp’ is a subset of player agency. I would argue that GW1’s sandbox profession mechanic and hero mechanic allowed player agency to function on a fundamental level.

And what Anet has done with these games is another ‘flavor’.

Since this discussion is getting more and more off-topic I’d like to remember that the initial topic is the comparison of traditional quests compared to events – what they can or cannot do. So I’d like to summarize these points in general and conclude:

• Traditional quests can offer you certain choices that allow you to personalize your character, you can make different decisions at certain points of the story and change it (to an extent). Star Wars – The Old Republic demonstrates a system like as it allows you to keep the targets of your quests alive, kill them or be corrupt and let them buy their life for example. Your character does even have a scale that shows how far on the dark / light side he is, it changes with every decision he makes.
• Events can certainly not do the same as they’re designed to be played by a group of players.

• Traditional events could be used to tell stories about your own character (charr legions,…) in order to create a backstory (that could be combined with the decision system mentioned above).
• Events can’t do that as they’re telling stories that are universally compatible with every character – in order to be available for every character.

Events have advantages and disadvantages compared to personal quests (less personal gameplay, much better multiplayer gameplay and sense of living world). They shouldn’t be seen as a replacement.

Instead, we should be looking at hearts, which are mostly generic quests without a decent narrative presentation. Or, alternatively, we should be looking at collections, which are also quests in everything but name, but with terrible UI support (why is such a quest system hidden beneath the achievements tab?)

I think GW2’s quests could be a lot more interesting if:

• Collection quests were more visible (give them their own tab, and additional UI support for future adventure-driven collections).
• Hearts had more interesting and unique gameplay scenarios, like the stealth mission in Lake Doric.

Events, ever since they Anet started expanding them from season 2 and on, are actually one of the most polished open world systems in this game.

Some people may like quests, but I sure don’t miss the repeated runs back and forth between the quest hub/givers and the quest areas.

Tekey.7946:

Ayrilana.1396:

Personal character development isn’t a requirement for RPG’s. Personal character development was only present during the second story arc of the personal story (level 20). Nothing else touched on the player character’s background history. GW1 really had zero personal character development in the sense of background story as well. Instead both stories centered around the player character’s involvement in the events going on within the games.

Ayrilana.1396:

Psientist.6437:

Ayrilana.1396:

Ashantara.8731:

I don’t think the OP was trying to say that they wanted events replaced with personal quests. I think the actual statement was that ArenaNet has been completely neglecting personal character development (as initiated by the personal story) in favor of events, which is never a good thing in a MMO*RPG* for the RPG part is completely being ignored.

Soon people will turn from MMOs to traditional pen & paper again, because they miss the excitement of adventuring and character progress.

Personal character development isn’t a requirement for RPG’s. Personal character development was only present during the second story arc of the personal story (level 20). Nothing else touched on the player character’s background history. GW1 really had zero personal character development in the sense of background story as well. Instead both stories centered around the player character’s involvement in the events going on within the games.

Offering background story or variable story choices is only one flavor of ‘rp’ and ‘rp’ is a subset of player agency. I would argue that GW1’s sandbox profession mechanic and hero mechanic allowed player agency to function on a fundamental level.

And what Anet has done with these games is another ‘flavor’.

Since this discussion is getting more and more off-topic I’d like to remember that the initial topic is the comparison of traditional quests compared to events – what they can or cannot do. So I’d like to summarize these points in general and conclude:

• Traditional quests can offer you certain choices that allow you to personalize your character, you can make different decisions at certain points of the story and change it (to an extent). Star Wars – The Old Republic demonstrates a system like as it allows you to keep the targets of your quests alive, kill them or be corrupt and let them buy their life for example. Your character does even have a scale that shows how far on the dark / light side he is, it changes with every decision he makes.
• Events can certainly not do the same as they’re designed to be played by a group of players.

---

• Traditional events could be used to tell stories about your own character (charr legions,…) in order to create a backstory (that could be combined with the decision system mentioned above).
• Events can’t do that as they’re telling stories that are universally compatible with every character – in order to be available for every character.

Except what you list as traditional isn’t actually traditional. Quests in other games have not all been what you describe as “traditional quests” but more like the events we have in this game. You’re using traditional in the sense of “what once was” which it never actually was.

Ayrilana.1396:

Except what you list as traditional isn’t actually traditional. Quests in other games have not all been what you describe as “traditional quests” but more like the events we have in this game. You’re using traditional in the sense of “what once was” which it never actually was.

Traditional quests – known as rather solo oriented content.
Events – known as mostly group oriented content.

I’ve never said that I’d call them traditional in the sense of “what once was”. That’s just your interpretation. I’ve even brought up Star Wars as a current example and still you’re arguing about semantics. Eventually, I have to call them somehow, so please try to stay on topic.

Tekey.7946:

Ayrilana.1396:

Except what you list as traditional isn’t actually traditional. Quests in other games have not all been what you describe as “traditional quests” but more like the events we have in this game. You’re using traditional in the sense of “what once was” which it never actually was.

Traditional quests – known as rather solo oriented content.
Events – known as mostly group oriented content.

I’ve never said that I’d call them traditional in the sense of “what once was”. That’s just your interpretation. I’ve even brought up Star Wars as a current example and still you’re arguing about semantics. Eventually, I have to call them somehow, so please try to stay on topic.

A large number of events in this game are solo oriented in that they can be done solo.

I went by your definitions on what you described as traditional.

Ayrilana.1396:

You’re using traditional in the sense of “what once was” which it never actually was.

Ayrilana.1396:

I went by your definitions on what you described as traditional.

Tekey.7946:

Here are some points being used in traditional quests – which events simply can’t provide:

• Solving mysteries, riddles. Letters you have to decrypt by combining hints found somewhere; stealth missions: find a way to sneak into a building without being noticed; Characters that went missing or act suspiciously – you have to find out what happened to them, what they’re up to and who is involved by asking other characters and looking for hints in the area. Also: how to achieve something by manipulating certain characters and processes – tactical thinking.

• Multiple choices. Decisions with a real impact on the story and your character + other characters. Decide whom you can trust, if you want to be honest, greedy or naive. The story will have a different outcome accordingly.

• Personality. And that’s a major point. Do you remember which legion your Charr character belongs to? Which order you chose? Which god did your humans choose and what’s the back-story of your character? Where did you come from, who are your friends and enemies? Doesn’t matter, you’re doing the same events as everyone else, no matter if you’re a human, Charr, Sylvari, Norn or Asura. Defeat this enemy because he’s evil. Defend this ally because he’s good.
  You’ll never find out who your character really is, how he would act according to his backstory and whom he would help.

Tekey.7946:

• Traditional quests can offer you certain choices that allow you to personalize your character, you can make different decisions at certain points of the story and change it (to an extent). Star Wars – The Old Republic demonstrates a system like as it allows you to keep the targets of your quests alive, kill them or be corrupt and let them buy their life for example. Your character does even have a scale that shows how far on the dark / light side he is, it changes with every decision he makes._

Tekey.7946:

Ayrilana.1396:

You’re using traditional in the sense of “what once was” which it never actually was.

Ayrilana.1396:

I went by your definitions on what you described as traditional.

Tekey.7946:

Here are some points being used in traditional quests – which events simply can’t provide:

• Solving mysteries, riddles. Letters you have to decrypt by combining hints found somewhere; stealth missions: find a way to sneak into a building without being noticed; Characters that went missing or act suspiciously – you have to find out what happened to them, what they’re up to and who is involved by asking other characters and looking for hints in the area. Also: how to achieve something by manipulating certain characters and processes – tactical thinking.

• Multiple choices. Decisions with a real impact on the story and your character + other characters. Decide whom you can trust, if you want to be honest, greedy or naive. The story will have a different outcome accordingly.

• Personality. And that’s a major point. Do you remember which legion your Charr character belongs to? Which order you chose? Which god did your humans choose and what’s the back-story of your character? Where did you come from, who are your friends and enemies? Doesn’t matter, you’re doing the same events as everyone else, no matter if you’re a human, Charr, Sylvari, Norn or Asura. Defeat this enemy because he’s evil. Defend this ally because he’s good.
  You’ll never find out who your character really is, how he would act according to his backstory and whom he would help.

Tekey.7946:

• Traditional quests can offer you certain choices that allow you to personalize your character, you can make different decisions at certain points of the story and change it (to an extent). Star Wars – The Old Republic demonstrates a system like as it allows you to keep the targets of your quests alive, kill them or be corrupt and let them buy their life for example. Your character does even have a scale that shows how far on the dark / light side he is, it changes with every decision he makes._

And again, those type of things are not the standard of traditional quests. Most MMO quests, actually probably RPG games in general, use the fetch and kill types. You’ll see those two more often than anything else and have been a complaint as far back as Everquest; probably further.

Quests and events could of course always have more depth with addtional story and choices. Your argument, including thread title, in regards to events and quests not being the same is unfortunately incorrect.

While I meanwhile agree that “Quests” as in Singleplayer/Characterspecific task and progression can and should coexist with the “multiplayer” events, it is definetly not because of any reasons the OP mentioned.

Like you can make Quests that are riddles, stealth stuff etc etc you can make the same content as an event. Anet just decided to not do. Because “kill stuff, pick stuff, escort stuff” are the easiest way to deliver content and therefore you can produce it faster. Regardless if it is an Event or a Quest. In the early day MMO the games are full of that holy trinity of Quest design.

Also the other stuff you mentioned is or at least was planned to be included.

Events with multiple choices are for example technically implemended in the dungeons. As each way is a event chain and your group decides per vote what you want to do. Also events like the magic gathering stuff in the norn starting area (where you can decide if you want to support the consortium or durmand) represent player choices. The only difference is that your choice is not the only one.

Also about the SWTOR stuff: That was actually planned in Guild Wars 2, too. Remember the decision between charm, dignity and ferocity as character creation? It was planned that the game keeps track of how you play with a character and let the NPCs react accordingly. Unfortunately that was scratched because to time intensive.

Also – in theory – events could be characterfocussed. Like a quest may just be avaiable to a specific group of characters (charrs, order of whispers members etc) or have different objectives depending on your background you can do the same with events. Like e.g. a Ascalon Ghost Champion only spawning when a charr is nearby. Or a raid on a pirate fortress where only lightbringers have the objective to save an informant.

The possibilities are there. Anet just do not have the experience or tools to create them. Because the evemt system is in comparision to the quests quite fresh.
If you dont believe me, just name a quest and I construct a corresponding Event for it.

…..

Well actually there is a thing what quests can do but events cannot. And that is saving progress. While you can interrupt a quest chain and and pick it up whenever you like the event chain will just continue when you log out. Therefore doing stuff like the collections for the new backpack would be nearly impossible (or at least incredible frustating) with events. So thats why I think that events should be utilized to tell Stories of the world and quests should more be like these collection achievements – a set of predefined task on a search for a specific item/ skill/mastery etc.

Ayrilana.1396:

And again, those type of things are not the standard of traditional quests. Most MMO quests, actually probably RPG games in general, use the fetch and kill types. You’ll see those two more often than anything else and have been a complaint as far back as Everquest; probably further.

Quests and events could of course always have more depth with addtional story and choices. Your argument, including thread title, in regards to events and quests not being the same is unfortunately incorrect.

Standard, most, more often: those quests do exist in other games. Therefore they’re part of the discussion.

And that’s why the topic and the thread title remains correct until someone provides examples of events that contain the points mentioned in the initial post.

Tekey.7946:

Ayrilana.1396:

And again, those type of things are not the standard of traditional quests. Most MMO quests, actually probably RPG games in general, use the fetch and kill types. You’ll see those two more often than anything else and have been a complaint as far back as Everquest; probably further.

Quests and events could of course always have more depth with addtional story and choices. Your argument, including thread title, in regards to events and quests not being the same is unfortunately incorrect.

Standard, most, more often: those quests do exist in other games. Therefore they’re part of the discussion.

And that’s why the topic and the thread title remains correct until someone provides examples of events that contain the points mentioned in the initial post.

Whether or not there are any events in the game that match what you want doesn’t mean that events cannot be created as such nor that events and quests are any different from each other.

So the thread title is false as events can certainly be made to match what you want. It just takes more resources.

Don’t we have all those things; they just aren’t called Dynamic Events? Aren’t some included in the Current Events? Wouldn’t a lot of them be considered riddles if players did not consult a guide? Does it really matter if it’s called an ‘event’ or ‘mission’ or ‘chapter’ or whatever? Does the game not provide these things, no matter where or how named?

Ayrilana.1396:

Whether or not there are any events in the game that match what you want doesn’t mean that events cannot be created as such nor that events and quests are any different from each other.

So the thread title is false as events can certainly be made to match what you want. It just takes more resources.

This:

Tekey.7946:

• Personality. And that’s a major point. Do you remember which legion your Charr character belongs to? Which order you chose? Which god did your humans choose and what’s the back-story of your character? Where did you come from, who are your friends and enemies? Doesn’t matter, you’re doing the same events as everyone else, no matter if you’re a human, Charr, Sylvari, Norn or Asura. Defeat this enemy because he’s evil. Defend this ally because he’s good.
  You’ll never find out who your character really is, how he would act according to his backstory and whom he would help.

combined with:

Tekey.7946:

• Multiple choices. Decisions with a real impact on the story and your character + other characters. Decide whom you can trust, if you want to be honest, greedy or naive. The story will have a different outcome accordingly.

in an event that appears for every player (in the same map), that supports every single combination of choices of each player? That’s ridiculous. Tell me how.

Tekey.7946:

Ayrilana.1396:

Whether or not there are any events in the game that match what you want doesn’t mean that events cannot be created as such nor that events and quests are any different from each other.

So the thread title is false as events can certainly be made to match what you want. It just takes more resources.

This:

Tekey.7946:

• Personality. And that’s a major point. Do you remember which legion your Charr character belongs to? Which order you chose? Which god did your humans choose and what’s the back-story of your character? Where did you come from, who are your friends and enemies? Doesn’t matter, you’re doing the same events as everyone else, no matter if you’re a human, Charr, Sylvari, Norn or Asura. Defeat this enemy because he’s evil. Defend this ally because he’s good.
  You’ll never find out who your character really is, how he would act according to his backstory and whom he would help.

combined with:

Tekey.7946:

• Multiple choices. Decisions with a real impact on the story and your character + other characters. Decide whom you can trust, if you want to be honest, greedy or naive. The story will have a different outcome accordingly.

in an event that appears for every player (in the same map), that supports every single combination of choices of each player? That’s ridiculous. Tell me how.

Players can vote similar to how you choose the leader of the pact camp in VB.

You also need to remember that this is an MMO and not a single player game that’s played offline.

Ayrilana.1396:

Players can vote similar to how you choose the leader of the pact camp in VB.

You also need to remember that this is an MMO and not a single player game that’s played offline.

Alright that’s not quite the same thing as making decisions on your own but let’s say we let it count. Where’s the impact of the story of your character? An Ash Legion Charr votes just like a noble human. Are there special events which continue the story line of the Ash Legion Charr that the noble human can’t do?

And you need to remember that everything I mentioned could be possible by using quests.

I think that a mixture of events to act as focal points for communal player activity, even when soloable, to establish setting and to convey regional story elements with broad brush strokes, and smaller, more personal, individual quests to fill in the details of what makes a region unique to itself, and to connect the player character to that story would be ideal.

I enjoy the event system, but a well written quest can tell a story that resonates with an individual, that brings a personal touch to the overarching story, in a way that an event meant for a zone’s worth of characters simultaneously might not.

Tekey.7946:

Ayrilana.1396:

Whether or not there are any events in the game that match what you want doesn’t mean that events cannot be created as such nor that events and quests are any different from each other.

So the thread title is false as events can certainly be made to match what you want. It just takes more resources.

This:

Tekey.7946:

• Personality. And that’s a major point. Do you remember which legion your Charr character belongs to? Which order you chose? Which god did your humans choose and what’s the back-story of your character? Where did you come from, who are your friends and enemies? Doesn’t matter, you’re doing the same events as everyone else, no matter if you’re a human, Charr, Sylvari, Norn or Asura. Defeat this enemy because he’s evil. Defend this ally because he’s good.
  You’ll never find out who your character really is, how he would act according to his backstory and whom he would help.

combined with:

Tekey.7946:

• Multiple choices. Decisions with a real impact on the story and your character + other characters. Decide whom you can trust, if you want to be honest, greedy or naive. The story will have a different outcome accordingly.

in an event that appears for every player (in the same map), that supports every single combination of choices of each player? That’s ridiculous. Tell me how.

Events can record our decision to participate in the event and whether the event succeeds or fail. What you are describing requires a decision tree that compiles our choices and events can’t contain this type of decision tree. The decision tree would have to exist outside of events, but participating in an event could produce change in the decision tree. We see this employed with some collections and it doesn’t always work well. Events don’t seem to offer much in the way of “personality choices” other than whether the player helps the event succeed or fail.

Perhaps if we had a Flux Capacitor we could figure out a way but unless you have one, bringing up the possibility comes across as arguing for arguments sake.

Bringing up the fact that not all mmorpgs have to conform to a standard is so redundant and obvious that it also qualifies as arguing for arguments sake.

Events don’t have to be the jack-of-all-trades that quests are and being the jack-of-all-trades often means being master of none. Spreading the functionality of quests among events, story, hearts, etc was a good decision because it allowed each to be the master of their function.

The personality decision tree compiler that was shipped on release hasn’t gone anywhere because dynamic open world events aren’t good at compiling those decisions and don’t offer that many sincere choices.

Tekey.7946:

Ayrilana.1396:

Players can vote similar to how you choose the leader of the pact camp in VB.

You also need to remember that this is an MMO and not a single player game that’s played offline.

Alright that’s not quite the same thing as making decisions on your own but let’s say we let it count. Where’s the impact of the story of your character? An Ash Legion Charr votes just like a noble human. Are there special events which continue the story line of the Ash Legion Charr that the noble human can’t do?

And you need to remember that everything I mentioned could be possible by using quests.

Anet could have dialogue which is different depending on the character’s race. This is done with the HoT and LS dialogues in the open world. That said, it would require more resources and would it be beneficial for the entire playerbase instead of just the roleplayers?

Ayrilana.1396:

Anet could have dialogue which is different depending on the character’s race. This is done with the HoT and LS dialogues in the open world. That said, it would require more resources and would it be beneficial for the entire playerbase instead of just the roleplayers?

I don’t think that anyone would be able to create unique story arcs like that by using the same events for everyone with an alternative text afterwards. What if the ally you’re protecting has to die in a certain story line – at the same time, other players will have to keep him alive in order to progress in their story? How do you stop people from keeping him alive? You’ll create a toxic, competitive atmosphere in terms of progress just like it’s been criticised by GW2 players regarding other games that let players fight for loot or nodes.
If there are more people on the one side (just as it is at world bosses positions) the other side will never know how their story continues. Maybe if you try to do the event 1000 times at different times when you’re lucky and no one else is around, you’ll make it.

By using the same events for everyone, you’ve basically scrapped every single idea behind the points and live with nothing but compromises:

• You’re not making decisions on your own. You can always be outvoted by other players and can’t reliably change the direction of your own story. It always depends on the decision of the other players. In the end, only a few will be happy with the decision made, the other players will be completely dissatisfied.

• Your own story, your back-story consists of a few lines of text that they added to a universal event that doesn’t seem to be that important itself – because it’s always the same, for everyone. You won’t be able to tell convincing (unique) stories like that. It will always remain the same with a small text that changes.

Tekey.7946:

Ayrilana.1396:

Anet could have dialogue which is different depending on the character’s race. This is done with the HoT and LS dialogues in the open world. That said, it would require more resources and would it be beneficial for the entire playerbase instead of just the roleplayers?

I don’t think that anyone would be able to create unique story arcs like that by using the same events for everyone with an alternative text afterwards. What if the ally you’re protecting has to die in a certain story line – at the same time, other players will have to keep him alive in order to progress in their story? How do you stop people from keeping him alive? You’ll create a toxic, competitive atmosphere in terms of progress just like it’s been criticised by GW2 players regarding other games that let players fight for loot or nodes.
If there are more people on the one side (just as it is at world bosses positions) the other side will never know how their story continues. Maybe if you try to do the event 1000 times at different times when you’re lucky and no one else is around, you’ll make it.

By using the same events for everyone, you’ve basically scrapped every single idea behind the points and live with nothing but compromises:

• You’re not making decisions on your own. You can always be outvoted by other players and can’t reliably change the direction of your own story. It always depends on the decision of the other players. In the end, only a few will be happy with the decision made, the other players will be completely dissatisfied.

• Your own story, your back-story consists of a few lines of text that they added to a universal event that doesn’t seem to be that important itself – because it’s always the same, for everyone. You won’t be able to tell convincing (unique) stories like that. It will always remain the same with a small text that changes.

Again, this is a multiplayer game. Whether or not others choose to let the NPC live or not doesn’t matter as there is a choice being made in the outcome. Open world quests wouldn’t really work as players would then be competing for those quests. I remember this mobile “MMO” that had quests and it was often spam clicking to speak to the NPC first to initiate the quest.

Fortunately, we have story instances that are dedicated to just the player character. It’s here where there usually isn’t any conflict with other players. I think the most we’ve had in the past, as far as issues are concerned, was whether events were succeeded/failed.

No MMORPG in this worl will evr provide a real truthful dynamic system that is in all regards of dynamism a game which is more than just only Action and reaction of hard coded pregrogrammed strings of actions that should happen only, if a player does in a situation the right thigns to make the game content trigger to be playable in the game.

Real dynamism comes from more than only Action and Reaction of preprogrammed things. It includes also conseuquences, permanent persistences and having a game, which follows permanently without any excuses (except Fractals maybe) the concept of TIME.

Time is simple – it exists a future and there is always a past, which means, there can only be a dynamic world in a game, if there is continously happenign something in the future, events, that aren’t preprogrammed, but which just happen automatically as a consequence based from the individual actions of the players.
and theres a past for everyone, which means, that there can be only a dynamic world, if everythign that happens inside of it also is endign up in having a permanent past, which means that everything that has happened, can’t repeat itself anymore ad ininitum.
Thats where ANets dynamic events by design fail miserably, because they are nothing but permanently themself repeating string quests.

Anet has basically given up their true concept of a living world with Season 1, where things happened in tyria, which permanently changed maps, like Kessex Hills, because players hated the true bad consequence that comes together with the fact, if you want to make a truly dynamic game which means, that everythign that happens in the game, can happen the way how it happens just only ONCE and then never again in the same way.
Transience is the key element of making a true dynamic game!
But in a game, in which players never want to miss anything, what to do everythign whenever they want, however they want,. so often they want, are such wishdreams of a true dynamic game simply completely incompatible.

ANd this is just first the beginning of what would need to change in GW2, before we would ever have a true dynamic game, in which the usage of the word “dynamic” doesn’t come over like a bad fake.

GW2 has taken the approach to only implement quests when the narrative it worth having that sort of linear structure, and for the most part decided that quests themselves are personal, solo offerings.

Events ARE good replacement for “busywork” quests in the open world. They’re less of a hassle for players to interact with and and some dynamism to the world in contrast the the generally more static nature of traditional quests. Pointing out that some events are more boring than others doesn’t change that fact.

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic has a good system. It’s multiplayer AND has a different story for each character. And there are something like 6 or 8 different types of characters. That’s a different dynamic each time you play. That’s the kind of engagement and variety GW2 needs (in my opinion).

A little bit more of that would go a long way toward making GW2 repeatable and would keep players invested longer.

jrf.8729:

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic has a good system. It’s multiplayer AND has a different story for each character. And there are something like 6 or 8 different types of characters. That’s a different dynamic each time you play. That’s the kind of engagement and variety GW2 needs (in my opinion).

A little bit more of that would go a long way toward making GW2 repeatable and would keep players invested longer.

Aren’t the stories instanced though?