Guild Wars 2

Please don’t be put off by the title. I’m not making this thread to bash the game or say any other game is better. I’m making this thread to see if anyone else agrees with the problems I have with this game: meaning the philosophy behind its structure. If my points are valid then I hope the devs will see this and choose a new course for GW2 in future expansions to encourage players to return and keep playing. I love GW2 I truly do. I played this game since beta. But I found myself lacking interest in it for a long time now after playing almost non-stop for about 2 years. This game was hella fun for the first year I played, but by the second year I started noticing things that made me less and less interested and invested in this game until I found myself playing off and on by the third year, and then eventually loosing all interest in this game and lacking motivation to return despite the new expansion and the new content.
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Again, I’m not trying to bash GW2, I’m not trying to say its a “Bad” game, but rather, lacking greatness. Overall I’d give it a B rating. It’s not the “special” mmorpg I thought it would be, and I’ll try to explain why its not the special mmorpg the developers thought it would be either. And I’m making this post because I believe GW2 has a ton of potential, and it can be the great MMROPG it ought to be. The main problem behind the design philosophy of GW2 is it disallows its mechanics to be taking to its fullest advantage. There’s A LOT of untapped potential in GW2 that will make it a much MUCH better game, but the philosophy of the developers is keeping that potential from being used.
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The goal of GW2 was to be different, to eliminate the need for grinding, to change up the way you progressed, how you interacted with other players, and to take things where no other mmorpg wanted to go at the time. But some of these things were not actually very different at all in the end, and many of these things, which initially sounded like great revolutionary ideas, have actually hurt the game more than helped in the end in my opinion. Maybe some of you here will agree ESPECIALLY if you’ve gotten to what is considered as “end game” and have been there for a while. One of the biggest problem with the philosophy behind the design of GW2 is that, while it is different and refreshing, it only is until you start seeing the repetitiveness of heart quests and world events you experience during map completion. This is when you realize that, as far as pve goes, you’re essentially still doing the exact same things as you would do in any other mmo. The only thing that’s different is the way you accept and turn in quests. And the only thing that has been changed as far as the holy trinity goes is who has the responsibility for tanking, healing and dps. Instead of one person per role, GW2 has all roles for each person. This, combined with the fact that there are only 1 to 2 viable builds per class despite the excess of options, in my opinion, has actually degraded combat into something more akin to a single player action rpg, or a MOBA game, or for WvW, a Dynasty Warriors game where victory feels even less satisfying, and has eliminated all sense of teamwork, which has eliminated the need for communication/player interaction during combat. All the while, probably the biggest problem this game has is the content-to-reward ratio HEAVILY lacking causing end game to quickly feel like the “end” of the road, which in turn leads to a lack in motivation to actually experience any more of the content the game has to offer. I will try to explain each of these points in great detail.
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This game is a hell of amount of fun while leveling up and getting new gear. But that fun quickly disappears once you reach max level and get full exotic equipment and skins you like. One of the biggest problems I found with this game is that, while there is tons of fun end game content, there’s really not much reason to do any of it. I’ve completed the main story,done a few dungeons and fractals, and got full ascended gear (which honestly is NOT worth the massive time/money investment since its not much better than easily obtained exotics, nor do they look much better either) but that’s all I’ve done as far as pve goes. I tried starting the extra end game story missions but I can’t get into it because there’s really no reason for me to do them. Nor is there any reason for me to do the hundreds of dynamic events/world bosses available to me at end game. I have not bought the expansion, nor do I feel the need to. Nor do I feel the need to do the new raids since the only rewards I can possible get aren’t any better than what I already have. Not worth my $30 if you ask me. I feel that Anet has officially missed the mark when it comes to motivating players to return and continue playing GW2. This is why I stopped playing and have no intentions on returning as long as the game continues to be like this. Which makes me a little sad inside, I still love this game but I feel I have no reason to come back. It’s a bitter sweet feeling caused by a fundamentally flawed design philosophy, the philosophy that our rewards should mostly be cosmetic than anything else.
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Here is the next huge problem I have with the design philosophy behind GW2: The developers thought it would be a good idea to remove the holy trinity, and this seemed like a great idea at first. But now I can see that this change has actually hurt the game more than helped. Most of you here should have noticed this by now also, if you’ve been at end game for awhile, that everyone basically has the same role. Show up, attack, and survive. This pretty much eliminates the need for communication/player interaction, and the fact that tons of players all doing the same even do so in complete silence is a testament to that. Every time I do a world boss/dynamic event, or even WvW, I RARELY ever see anyone talking, and I’m rarely talking with anyone because there’s no need to. There’s no need for coordination because there’s no set roles. Just show up, follow the leader, and hope you have enough man power to succeed. That’s all dynamic events and WvW amounts to. All these other players might as well be npcs because there’s no interaction going on! This makes GW2 game feel like a single player game even though there are tons of players running around me. If you ask me, that’s problematic design right there. MMORPGS are fun because of player interaction, that’s what separates them from single player rpgs. GW2 has absolutely no need for it, and consequently, GW2 is heavily lacking in this department.
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Yes I am aware that there are Guild events which do need communication and interaction. This is pretty much the only thing in the game that requires you to talk with other players and work as a team. Even dungeons require some team work, but not much. The problem here AGAIN is the lack of rewards, thus the lack of motivation do to them to begin with. The only meaningful rewards to get from Guild events are ascended accessories which doesn’t take too long to get a full set of ascended accessories (not counting ascended armor and weapons which take FOREVER), nor are they required for anything because they’re not much better than exotics. So once you have them, as far as I have seen, there is absolutely no reason to continue doing dungeons or guild events. And there’s not much need to even get ascended equipment in the first place! Pvp also gives you almost no rewards at all other than some skins which you might or might not like and bragging rights.
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Those are the main problems with PVE. And here’s the problem with PvP. Getting good at pvp doesn’t take much time because every class has 1 or 2 viable builds and you will either suck if you don’t choose one of those builds or be at least decent if you play one of those builds long enough. There’s really no rewards for doing pvp other than titles, some skins which you may or may not like, and bragging rights. The lack of customization between classes makes being “the best” at pvp like being the best at playing poker. You have a limited set of cards and how well you do is determined by how well you play those cards. And let’s not lie, winning due to blind luck rather than skill occurs FAR too often, at least for my liking. And the fact that you’re forced into playing 1 or 2 builds when there’s so many options to choose from really takes away from the satisfaction of winning in pvp as well. It’s very easy to get to the point where you’re playing the class as it should be played and there’s not much room to improve after that. Most players I’ve played against are also on this level, if you play very competitively, getting to the point where the amount of skill needed to win is about the same as an FPS game, or a MOBA game when sheer luck is not involved. This makes the entirety of structured PVP fun, but only for a couple hours before you really start to feel like you’re doing the same thing over and over again for no reason other than to kill time. Sure there’s the real life tournaments, but seriously, what are the chances any one person will ever get to participate in one?
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WvW is a little different, but not by much. Its also REALLY fun to play at first, especially if you’re playing directly with a friend, or better yet, a group of friends. But when you’re not, it can still be fun but only for so long. The above mentioned issues also effect WvW. There’s new elements to take advantage of such as siege weapons. But when it comes down to it, all WvW it really amounts to is joining a game, following the tagged commander, and going from objective to objective. I’ve been doing WvW for a very long time, its my favorite thing to do next to structured pvp in GW2. But again this mode of game play lacks rewards. There’s really no reason to do it other than to kill some time. And that’s fine at first, but you quickly start to feel as though you’re doing the same thing over and over for absolutely no reason at all. The castles are all structured the same for example, break the door down, kill the boss, capture the point, move on. That’s only fun for so long. When you get to that point there’s really no reason to continue, and when you stop there’s really no need to go back to doing it if you’re satisfied with how well you are at it. And due to the large numbers involved in WvW I would argue that it takes EVEN LESS skill in WvW than in structured pvp to get things accomplished because the biggest factor in determining who wins is who has the bigger army. This is also where the lack of roles hurts the most. I’ve been in some MASSIVE three-way WvW battles, and it was COMPLETE SILENCE. No one was saying a single word. Everyone was just mindlessly doing their rotation over and over with no objective other than to kill their targets. Because there are no set roles, there is no team work, no coordination, and absolutely no player interaction even though there was seemingly hundreds of players all fighting right before my eyes. I explained how pve dynamic events/world bosses feels very much like a single player rpg, and structure pvp feels like a MOBA game… Well, WvW feels like I’m playing a single player Dynasty Warriors game. It’s almost EXACTLY like playing any random Dynasty Warrior game. Unless you’re directly playing with friends, and that only happens every so often.
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In conclusion, I have to first apologize for this very long post. If you’ve gotten this far then I thank you. I want to know if anyone here feels the same way. If so then I think this is all the more reason for the developers to change their philosophy about how this game needs to be designed in order to encourage players to return and keep playing. The game needs more rewards worth getting. The game needs well-defined class roles which complement each other role. You don’t even have to go back to the holy trinity, you should make it to where each class can perform each specific role due to its build. For example, each class should have 3 different skill trees, 1 offense skill tree, 1 utility skill tree, and 1 support skill tree. Let us choose different skills between these trees so we can either be a jack of all trades, or a pure dps, pure tank, or pure healer. Or instead of the holy trinity it could be something like dps, crowd control, and buffing. I can come up with tons of different unique roles each skill tree can do other than the holy trinity, not sure why this is a problem for developers. This will eliminate the need to find healers or tanks before people can do dungeons because anyone can actively switch to that role on the fly. This will give everyone more things to do, more reasons to continue playing, and the satisfaction of victory due to team work.

What I got from this is that you didn’t even give jumping puzzles a chance. Shame on you.

I just don’t understand these types of threads.
If gw2 isn’t a great game then why do you play it.
Why not play a great game instead.

Say what you want, it’s still better then black desert. That games a hot mess atm.

I’ve got a different opinion. GW2 was a great game until ANet started trying to bend every which way to appease the people who wanted this game to be like every other MMO out there.

That’s not to say that the game does not have problems. I just don’t see the same ones the OP does.

You stated that Guild Wars 2 has tons of fun events (content), but there is no reason to do it. Perhaps, the reason to do it would be because it is fun. I mean, that’s why I play games, of any kind…because it’s fun!

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You stated that Guild Wars 2 has tons of fun events (content), but there is no reason to do it. Perhaps, the reason to do it would be because it is fun. I mean, that’s why I play games, of any kind…because it’s fun!

^
And not to mention the compensation of these big events in gold and mastery experience. Its mainly about fun but anet built in light compensation for everything you do just to keep you going.

I would post a thread titled “Why Guild Wars 2 is the best mmorpg” and hit on topics you posted above but thats just opinion and youre on a gw2 forum, who is to convince, everyone on here plays the game already anyway.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ve got a different opinion. GW2 was a great game until ANet started trying to bend every which way to appease the people who wanted this game to be like every other MMO out there.

That’s not to say that the game does not have problems. I just don’t see the same ones the OP does.

I think you’re right, but for different reasons. I think Anet tends to be willing to try things out more than just about any other MMO. We like how the game started, so we’re focused on what that game was. But there are 300 devs in the game and we also know that Anet has often given them their reign to do stuff. That’s how SAB and the combat mode came into existence after all. People working on stuff they wanted to do.

My guess is that not everyone who works for Anet sees the game as you or I might (and I do think I like many of the same things you do). They come in to replace people who were here and they bring new passion and new ideas. My guess is that if they love something and they think they can produce something that really adds to the game, Anet will give them a nod.

We keep saying it’s Anet giving in, but just as gamers are divided on what makes a good game here, what makes you think that gamers aren’t divided about what makes a good game at Anet?

From where we stand, it looks like a mess with no real structure, but that could very well be because we attached ourselves to a vision that was stated years ago and new people are there now doing different things.

Look at how many of the top guys inception aren’t here. Jeff Strain, Eric Flannum, Jon Peterson, Jeff Grubb, Chris Whiteside, and now Colin. There are more, many more.

But as people change in a company, so too can the vision for where the game should go next. We only know really what Anet had planned for this game before launch, but afterwards, there was plenty of room to fill in the gaps.

Take challenging content. The game had very little even moderately challenging content, for me anyway, before recently. Yeah, Liadri when it came around. Maybe a few of the achievements, but once you do those, they’re not repeatable.

People say Anet was driven by the fan base to do stuff they really didn’t want to do. I believe there were probably always elements without Anet that thought there should be more challenge, or raids, or even something like gliding. As the staff changes, so to do the visions of what this game should be.

I liked mostly all of the initial ideas from GW2. For me it is no longer great because
with HoT the shoved them all into the trashbin

Beldin.5498:

I liked mostly all of the initial ideas from GW2. For me it is no longer great because
with HoT the shoved them all into the trashbin

I still have no idea why they’ve decided to drop the one design philosophy that made this game unique and drew in their initial audience (lots of open world friendly group content) in favour of adding more generic, elitist crap like raids.

I will never raid. Ever.

And from what I’ve seen since HoT dropped, it looks like I will never get a new world content again until the next expansion 1+ years away.

Esquilax.3491:

I still have no idea why they’ve decided to drop the one design philosophy that made this game unique and drew in their initial audience (lots of open world friendly group content) in favour of adding more generic, elitist crap like raids.

I will never raid. Ever.

And from what I’ve seen since HoT dropped, it looks like I will never get a new world content again until the next expansion 1+ years away.

Next expansion will only consist of 10 new raid wings. Why new world content ?
You know what the raiders always say .. you can still play the old content.

And btw.: i never ever wanted to play a raid game again after Rift, that why i
first bought a lifetime abo from Champions Online, and played that until GW2
was released.

I’d offer counterparts to all your points – it’s mostly mutually-exclusive tradeoffs.

1. While the questing’s changed up – it also makes quests repeatable if there are some you particularly enjoy. Unfortunately, some of the Hearts don’t have similar Events to allow replay of. The really awesome thing about Dynamic Events compared to traditional quests is the way they put everyone in the area on the same page. I played EQ2 for a while after playing Guild Wars, and the deadness of the world while questing drove me back here. It really does make the world seem more alive.

2. The Exotic Gear Cap – On one hand, yeah, it causes problems for those who need to keep progressing vertically in power. However… frankly, I’m glad the gear grind stops at a defined point in the game, especially in a game that’s so cosmetic-focused. At level 80, you start collecting Exotic armor sets and skins – and they’re separate, so you can pursue new looks and new stats at your own pace. Leveling an alt is actually painful now due to having to fight between updating stats and updating the look. It’s especially valuable on weapons – you get to carry full sets of weapons to experiment with in different content, instead of being forced into only using your strongest weapons.

3. Guild Wars 2 got rid of the old “Three Defined Roles”, and PvE is easy enough that people don’t have to quite figure out how to balance the dozens of new, subtly different roles available – but in PvP and WvW, coordination can lead to some really awesome combinations.

4. I can see several problems with the need for communication. I think part of the issue might be the game’s combat system. How do you communicate with people when you’re too busy using your keyboard to actively fight and position yourself?

Beldin.5498:

I liked mostly all of the initial ideas from GW2. For me it is no longer great because
with HoT the shoved them all into the trashbin

Esquilax.3491:

I still have no idea why they’ve decided to drop the one design philosophy that made this game unique and drew in their initial audience (lots of open world friendly group content) in favour of adding more generic, elitist crap like raids.

Beldin.5498:

Next expansion will only consist of 10 new raid wings. Why new world content ?
You know what the raiders always say .. you can still play the old content.

These posts disturb me a lot because it tells me that there’s a sharp disconnect between what ANet is actually doing and what people like you think they’re doing. I will point out that there are four new maps released with Heart of Thorns intended for open world gamers, a whole new story that casual players got to enjoy, and that the only reason you’ve seen two raid updates so far is because the entire raid wasn’t available at HoT launch and they staggered it instead. They’re not suddenly transitioning their game to be about raiding; there aren’t even a half-dozen people making raids out of the 300+ working on Guild Wars 2 currently. You’re not forced to play raids, and if you seriously care about the story ANet made it so that you can enter a friend’s cleared raid instance, experience the whole story, and even replay any cinematics therein.

They haven’t dropped their casual-supporting philosophy, on the contrary they specifically stated from the get-go that the players who desire a challenge in-game (re: not elitists, just people who like a challenge) had poor retention and they wanted to add more end-game content. This is why things like raids were introduced, and why fractals were and continue to get revamped, and why the difficulty of the open-world HoT maps is marginally higher than other open world maps. This is not a departure from their original philosophy, simply an addition to it. Future expansion packs will feature new raids in addition to all of the open world events and maps that get added; Mike O Brien confirmed this both in the recent AMA and in the past before that.

Let’s not forget that they completely redid a world boss to be casual-friendly and more exciting than it used to be. The Shatterer update is a great example of ANet catering to the casual crowd, and that is the trend you should expect to see in Living Story 3 and forward (which will be coming later this year).

If you’re still upset even after having read this post, then I would suggest you look into managing your expectations appropriately. It’d sure be nice if every month they released a new open world map or something like that, but such a development schedule is unsustainable and ineffectual. You’ll get more things that cater to the type of player you are, you just need to be patient. And remember, you aren’t paying a subscription, so feel free to take a break and come back when the next expansion comes out. Playing GW2 and other games are not mutually exclusive endeavors by design.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Beldin.5498:

I liked mostly all of the initial ideas from GW2. For me it is no longer great because
with HoT the shoved them all into the trashbin

Esquilax.3491:

I still have no idea why they’ve decided to drop the one design philosophy that made this game unique and drew in their initial audience (lots of open world friendly group content) in favour of adding more generic, elitist crap like raids.

Beldin.5498:

Next expansion will only consist of 10 new raid wings. Why new world content ?
You know what the raiders always say .. you can still play the old content.

These posts disturb me a lot because it tells me that there’s a sharp disconnect between what ANet is actually doing and what people like you think they’re doing. I will point out that there are four new maps released with Heart of Thorns intended for open world gamers, a whole new story that casual players got to enjoy, and that the only reason you’ve seen two raid updates so far is because the entire raid wasn’t available at HoT launch and they staggered it instead. They’re not suddenly transitioning their game to be about raiding; there aren’t even a half-dozen people making raids out of the 300+ working on Guild Wars 2 currently. You’re not forced to play raids, and if you seriously care about the story ANet made it so that you can enter a friend’s cleared raid instance, experience the whole story, and even replay any cinematics therein.

They haven’t dropped their casual-supporting philosophy, on the contrary they specifically stated from the get-go that the players who desire a challenge in-game (re: not elitists, just people who like a challenge) had poor retention and they wanted to add more end-game content. This is why things like raids were introduced, and why fractals were and continue to get revamped, and why the difficulty of the open-world HoT maps is marginally higher than other open world maps. This is not a departure from their original philosophy, simply an addition to it. Future expansion packs will feature new raids in addition to all of the open world events and maps that get added; Mike O Brien confirmed this both in the recent AMA and in the past before that.

Let’s not forget that they completely redid a world boss to be casual-friendly and more exciting than it used to be. The Shatterer update is a great example of ANet catering to the casual crowd, and that is the trend you should expect to see in Living Story 3 and forward (which will be coming later this year).

If you’re still upset even after having read this post, then I would suggest you look into managing your expectations appropriately. It’d sure be nice if every month they released a new open world map or something like that, but such a development schedule is unsustainable and ineffectual. You’ll get more things that cater to the type of player you are, you just need to be patient. And remember, you aren’t paying a subscription, so feel free to take a break and come back when the next expansion comes out. Playing GW2 and other games are not mutually exclusive endeavors by design.

To be fair, there are things about those maps that some casuals hate, such as having to spend two hours or so to get through dragon stand. That’s two hours all at one time. That’s not very casual at all.

Anet admitted they unintentionally created something that was more limiting and didn’t support different play styles and they’re going to make an attempt to fix that.

So it’s not just raids that are the problem with HoT for some casuals. Me, I like it, but you know, I’m not everyone.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Beldin.5498:

I liked mostly all of the initial ideas from GW2. For me it is no longer great because
with HoT the shoved them all into the trashbin

Esquilax.3491:

I still have no idea why they’ve decided to drop the one design philosophy that made this game unique and drew in their initial audience (lots of open world friendly group content) in favour of adding more generic, elitist crap like raids.

Beldin.5498:

Next expansion will only consist of 10 new raid wings. Why new world content ?
You know what the raiders always say .. you can still play the old content.

These posts disturb me a lot because it tells me that there’s a sharp disconnect between what ANet is actually doing and what people like you think they’re doing. I will point out that there are four new maps released with Heart of Thorns intended for open world gamers, a whole new story that casual players got to enjoy, and that the only reason you’ve seen two raid updates so far is because the entire raid wasn’t available at HoT launch and they staggered it instead. They’re not suddenly transitioning their game to be about raiding; there aren’t even a half-dozen people making raids out of the 300+ working on Guild Wars 2 currently. You’re not forced to play raids, and if you seriously care about the story ANet made it so that you can enter a friend’s cleared raid instance, experience the whole story, and even replay any cinematics therein.

They haven’t dropped their casual-supporting philosophy, on the contrary they specifically stated from the get-go that the players who desire a challenge in-game (re: not elitists, just people who like a challenge) had poor retention and they wanted to add more end-game content. This is why things like raids were introduced, and why fractals were and continue to get revamped, and why the difficulty of the open-world HoT maps is marginally higher than other open world maps. This is not a departure from their original philosophy, simply an addition to it. Future expansion packs will feature new raids in addition to all of the open world events and maps that get added; Mike O Brien confirmed this both in the recent AMA and in the past before that.

Let’s not forget that they completely redid a world boss to be casual-friendly and more exciting than it used to be. The Shatterer update is a great example of ANet catering to the casual crowd, and that is the trend you should expect to see in Living Story 3 and forward (which will be coming later this year).

If you’re still upset even after having read this post, then I would suggest you look into managing your expectations appropriately. It’d sure be nice if every month they released a new open world map or something like that, but such a development schedule is unsustainable and ineffectual. You’ll get more things that cater to the type of player you are, you just need to be patient. And remember, you aren’t paying a subscription, so feel free to take a break and come back when the next expansion comes out. Playing GW2 and other games are not mutually exclusive endeavors by design.

It’s really easy to understand the posts you quote, since those 6 developers managed to produce more content than the rest of the company.

Vayne.8563:

To be fair, there are things about those maps that some casuals hate, such as having to spend two hours or so to get through dragon stand. That’s two hours all at one time. That’s not very casual at all.

Sure, nothing’s perfect and I agree that those things should be fixed (and they will). Not even raids are perfect, and I’ve written numerous reports to make sure the team is aware of the issues there for the intended audience. What I take issue with is people judging ANet’s vision for the game based on the tangential success of one team within ANet irrespective of the things every other team is working on.

It’s like going into a food court with a really good sushi place and many other types of food and then blaming the food court for not catering to the non-sushi-eating customer.

Manthas.6234:

It’s really easy to understand the posts you quote, since those 6 developers managed to produce more content than the rest of the company.

Raids are not more content than the entire rest of Heart of Thorns. Think of the other things that came with the expansion what you will, the HoT maps took far more effort than raids did due to their sheer size, interactions, and the scripting involved. It only seems like raids are a lot of content because the raid wing releases are staggered and didn’t all come out with HoT.

Wow can I get the summarized version of the Original post?

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ve got a different opinion. GW2 was a great game until ANet started trying to bend every which way to appease the people who wanted this game to be like every other MMO out there.

That’s not to say that the game does not have problems. I just don’t see the same ones the OP does.

I think you’re right, but for different reasons. I think Anet tends to be willing to try things out more than just about any other MMO. We like how the game started, so we’re focused on what that game was. But there are 300 devs in the game and we also know that Anet has often given them their reign to do stuff. That’s how SAB and the combat mode came into existence after all. People working on stuff they wanted to do.

My guess is that not everyone who works for Anet sees the game as you or I might (and I do think I like many of the same things you do). They come in to replace people who were here and they bring new passion and new ideas. My guess is that if they love something and they think they can produce something that really adds to the game, Anet will give them a nod.

We keep saying it’s Anet giving in, but just as gamers are divided on what makes a good game here, what makes you think that gamers aren’t divided about what makes a good game at Anet?

From where we stand, it looks like a mess with no real structure, but that could very well be because we attached ourselves to a vision that was stated years ago and new people are there now doing different things.

Look at how many of the top guys inception aren’t here. Jeff Strain, Eric Flannum, Jon Peterson, Jeff Grubb, Chris Whiteside, and now Colin. There are more, many more.

But as people change in a company, so too can the vision for where the game should go next. We only know really what Anet had planned for this game before launch, but afterwards, there was plenty of room to fill in the gaps.

Take challenging content. The game had very little even moderately challenging content, for me anyway, before recently. Yeah, Liadri when it came around. Maybe a few of the achievements, but once you do those, they’re not repeatable.

People say Anet was driven by the fan base to do stuff they really didn’t want to do. I believe there were probably always elements without Anet that thought there should be more challenge, or raids, or even something like gliding. As the staff changes, so to do the visions of what this game should be.

Some good points, there.

I’d say though that vision has to flow from management. Unfortunately, the only management I can see that is still there is Mike O’Brien. Most of the names you named were mid or even upper management.

Perhaps I’m cynical. I believe that money is the prime mover, and that ANet wants to appeal to more demographics to up their market share. At a guess, the number of potential players who “hated traditional MMO’s” was not as large as they would prefer. Hence, the movement to add more traditional MMO stuff to the game. The problem there is that those who hated MMO’s start to feel like the company is betraying them — sometimes for questionable upsides.

It’s like the new Bat/Super movie. It’s touted as being all dark and moody like Marvel used to be. I get that DC movies have largely been disappointing to their producers, but embracing a style the other guys did and moved away from is certainly going to alienate some DC fans — and I don’t believe it’s going to appeal as much to Marvel fans or even general audiences as the company might prefer.

Being cynical, I tend to view the experimentation in a bit of a darker light. Those who dislike MMO’s have likely already spent their money. Also, where can they find another MMO that is not worse than GW2 as far as their dislike of MMO stand-by stuff goes? Why not try to appeal to the other side, as the one side is either tapped out or isn’t going anywhere anyway?

Most people complain. People complain because they care about something. Once the complaint is gone, it is either the problem has been solved, or they moved on to something else.

Solve the problems while people still care.
That is all.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You stated that Guild Wars 2 has tons of fun events (content), but there is no reason to do it. Perhaps, the reason to do it would be because it is fun. I mean, that’s why I play games, of any kind…because it’s fun!

Lol, dude. This isn’t a platformer where the reward is simply completing the challenging levels to beat the game. This is an MMO*RPG*. The whole point is to advance your character whether it be from doing/completing the storyline(s), getting that sweet sword from doing all that hard work, or killing that beastly looking boss.

That’s what most people find fun about MMOs. The gameplay in RPGs (action oriented MMOs included) isn’t really built to be “fun” in the same way that a platformer or action game is. They are specifically tailored to be what they are, that’s the focus. Everything else (a good story, shiny pixels, group play) can take a backseat.

I’m sure there are some (like yourself) that will find the MMO gameplay to be enough to play an MMO everyday. But for most, it’s a feature that only has to be somewhat entertaining and not grief inducing to be able to enjoy the rest of the game.

EdenEnix.6341:

Snip.

I honestly feel the same way you do. I really don’t have much to add. I wish they made ascended gear more worth getting, and more means of attaining it. I agree about having more ability to play different roles per class. There’s no Ninja Nurse build for Thief, and I would LOVE that. I think the holy trinity is a good concept, but just make each class able to perform that role if so desired.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Wow can I get the summarized version of the Original post?

There’s not enough incentive to play the various parts of the game via better reward systems, especially in PvP/WvW. There aren’t enough viable builds per class. Each class should be able to play numerous builds to fill the role of tank/healer/DPS.

At least, that’s what I read.

Right now Anet I trying to spread out and bring in a bigger audience on top of their current one. We had all heard on forums that a number left when HoT was released, some after they finished it. Are the potential new players worth the risk of losing your base players?

Some of the new stuff I have liked (Adventures, meta gliding) but they have put too much grind in with no sort of relaxed areas, they need a mix of HoT type areas and pre HoT to balance out running meta events and more layed back areas.

Hoping to see them make a good ls3 with all the feedback.

Also hoping te guardian gets the dervish spec somehow ????

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ve got a different opinion. GW2 was a great game until ANet started trying to bend every which way to appease the people who wanted this game to be like every other MMO out there.

That’s not to say that the game does not have problems. I just don’t see the same ones the OP does.

I think you’re right, but for different reasons. I think Anet tends to be willing to try things out more than just about any other MMO. We like how the game started, so we’re focused on what that game was. But there are 300 devs in the game and we also know that Anet has often given them their reign to do stuff. That’s how SAB and the combat mode came into existence after all. People working on stuff they wanted to do.

My guess is that not everyone who works for Anet sees the game as you or I might (and I do think I like many of the same things you do). They come in to replace people who were here and they bring new passion and new ideas. My guess is that if they love something and they think they can produce something that really adds to the game, Anet will give them a nod.

We keep saying it’s Anet giving in, but just as gamers are divided on what makes a good game here, what makes you think that gamers aren’t divided about what makes a good game at Anet?

From where we stand, it looks like a mess with no real structure, but that could very well be because we attached ourselves to a vision that was stated years ago and new people are there now doing different things.

Look at how many of the top guys inception aren’t here. Jeff Strain, Eric Flannum, Jon Peterson, Jeff Grubb, Chris Whiteside, and now Colin. There are more, many more.

But as people change in a company, so too can the vision for where the game should go next. We only know really what Anet had planned for this game before launch, but afterwards, there was plenty of room to fill in the gaps.

Take challenging content. The game had very little even moderately challenging content, for me anyway, before recently. Yeah, Liadri when it came around. Maybe a few of the achievements, but once you do those, they’re not repeatable.

People say Anet was driven by the fan base to do stuff they really didn’t want to do. I believe there were probably always elements without Anet that thought there should be more challenge, or raids, or even something like gliding. As the staff changes, so to do the visions of what this game should be.

Some good points, there.

I’d say though that vision has to flow from management. Unfortunately, the only management I can see that is still there is Mike O’Brien. Most of the names you named were mid or even upper management.

Perhaps I’m cynical. I believe that money is the prime mover, and that ANet wants to appeal to more demographics to up their market share. At a guess, the number of potential players who “hated traditional MMO’s” was not as large as they would prefer. Hence, the movement to add more traditional MMO stuff to the game. The problem there is that those who hated MMO’s start to feel like the company is betraying them — sometimes for questionable upsides.

It’s like the new Bat/Super movie. It’s touted as being all dark and moody like Marvel used to be. I get that DC movies have largely been disappointing to their producers, but embracing a style the other guys did and moved away from is certainly going to alienate some DC fans — and I don’t believe it’s going to appeal as much to Marvel fans or even general audiences as the company might prefer.

Being cynical, I tend to view the experimentation in a bit of a darker light. Those who dislike MMO’s have likely already spent their money. Also, where can they find another MMO that is not worse than GW2 as far as their dislike of MMO stand-by stuff goes? Why not try to appeal to the other side, as the one side is either tapped out or isn’t going anywhere anyway?

I agree with what you say, particularly you’re last line. Anet had a great niche and they’ve largely squandered the good will with that niche. There really are very few casual friendly MMOs.

On the topic of profit, profit always has to be a consideration, but I don’t think the devs are thinking in terms of profit when creating content. They’re just trying to make the best content they have given the time and budget constraints they work under. Like pretty much every business.

Clearly the raid team loves raids and that’s why the raids have been well received. They’re not making raids to kitten off the casual audience. They’re making raids because they really believe raids are fun and would be a good addition to the game. If that weren’t the case, the raids wouldn’t have been as well received as they have been.

But raiders who think raids are awesome aren’t going to look at raids and think they’re some sort of attack on the direction of the game. They’re thinking this would be awesome to have here as well.

The more vested you are in a content type. the more likely you are going to feel hurt when the company moves away from that. But filling in holes is what companies tend to do. Even in Guild Wars 1, GW 1 had no real dungeons and when Eye of the North came out they added 16 dungeons, something they really didn’t have before. Why? Because they didn’t have it. They didn’t see it as we’re changing direction. They saw it as we’re plugging holes.

Unfortunately for Anet, the new zones were too difficult or too scheduled or too hard to navigate for a percentage of the playerbase. But as I’ve said often, I have a guild filled with casual people and really only two or three of them are having issues with the new zones, and of those one of them really likes it, even though he doesn’t really have the skill set to enjoy it without help. So we run together a lot…and he has a good time.

HoT asks for more of a commitment in time and energy than earlier zones, which is something this game needed, even for a player like me. I was getting bored of being in zones where my survival was a given. I’m hoping the upcoming changes will be a reasonable compromise that will work for both sets of people, harder core players and more casual players and I hope people give it a real chance before judging it.

You all bring up some good points too, let me try to summarize the main points I was trying to get across as perhaps the length of the post made it more difficult to understand. My main problem with this game is that, while fun, playing for fun sake’s is only good for so long. When you get burnt out on it, without meaningful rewards, there’s no reason to come back. Unfortunately, this happens too soon for my liking, it only took me a year before I felt like I’ve done everything to the fullest, and everything that is new is just more of the same without any new rewards. I’d like to come back to GW2, but because of this I feel there’s no reason to. I’ve already done all the fun content to the point where it isn’t very fun anymore. The lack of player interaction while doing these things (not counting dungeons and guild events) also makes it less fun. I go through entire sessions of WvW and world bosses without seeing a single player say a single thing all the time. There’s no need for player communication because everyone has the same role, it feels like a MOBA game, or a single player rpg. And the lack of character customization makes it even less fun. Each class has 1 or 2 builds that are viable despite having tons of options. So many useless ways to make your character. Being forced into 1 or 2 particular builds rather than having my own unique build takes away from the satisfaction I get from playing the game ESPECIALLY when everyone has the same role. I’m not trying to say GW2 NEEDS the holy trinity, but because it doesn’t, it needs a lot more viable build customization than it has.

Perhaps the people who feel the same way I do have already left and are not here to express their agreement. But I have a feeling that many of you will eventually feel the same way I do. It’s fun when you first start playing, but when you get to max level, it only goes down hill from there.

Or perhaps in the end, maybe my mistake is asking Guild Wars 2 to be more of a hardcore mmorpg when it was designed to be a casual mmorpg? As I read on, it seems most of you here are casual mmorpg players. Maybe my problem with GW2 is the fact that its a casual mmorpg, but I want a hardcore mmorpg? I was never sure if GW2 was meant to SPECIFICALLY be a casual mmorpg rather than a hardcore mmorpg, I always thought it was supposed to appeal to both casual and hardcore gamers.

TheFool.4589:

Say what you want, it’s still better then black desert. That games a hot mess atm.

Lol, Black Desert is a sandbox + a 2005 game released on 2016, of course it’s a mess. Plus since it’s a Korean MMO, the voice acting sucks and the story is horrible.
The game itself it’s addicting as any other korean mmo, since that’s their primary focus when they develope games.

HoT might not be perfect or even a complete expansion so far, but at least it was worth my time and money so far.
I might be playing some offline games and left GW2 atm, but It’s one of the few stuff I do not regret buying and spending my time on.

when reviewers make their game reviews on mmorpg, they make it base on their first impression but never were done with consideration of the developer performance. afterall, is a mmorpg, it is not a single player game or focused game like fps/rts/etc. a through review is necessary if is a mmorpg.

gw2 on first impression did have great score. personally, i too will give gw2 a great score if base on first impression. however, mmorpg will require a greater standard of reviewing because unlike non-MMO titles, MMO title usually have more frequent updates.

considering the performance of the developer, gw2 will not receive a great score any more, at the best, is a good score, with the consideration that is b2p.

i do agree that gw2 is not a great mmorpg when take in consideration of the developer performance. however, there are things i do disagree with you because some of reasons seem more like a personal preferences.

GW2 is great and all, but will never offer me the experience(good and bad) as much as FFXI vanilla did. FFXI was a true MMO in my books (before the lv99 cap). Though the reason why I jumped to GW2 was that I could not sink my time into a game anymore due to getting a full time job, starting a family, etc. For those of you that know the original FFXI, I would be lfg for hours to get into an exp party. I was ok with that because I had all the time in world back then. I cannot do the same for finding raid groups in GW2 anymore.

The direction that Anet is recently taking, worries me on the future outcome of GW2.

Sometimes you need to take a breake, playing other stuff while waiting for New changes.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Manthas.6234:

It’s really easy to understand the posts you quote, since those 6 developers managed to produce more content than the rest of the company.

Raids are not more content than the entire rest of Heart of Thorns. Think of the other things that came with the expansion what you will, the HoT maps took far more effort than raids did due to their sheer size, interactions, and the scripting involved. It only seems like raids are a lot of content because the raid wing releases are staggered and didn’t all come out with HoT.

I was talking about the content post HoT release, since, you know, HoT came 5 months ago.
HoT is a thing of the past, we should be moving forward already, but we’re still waiting for additions which were promised to be on HoT.

In the original post, the OP said that they had no reason to play the content but was vague on what would be a reason.

I’m going to read between the lines and suggest that they wanted some sort of progression as a reward for doing content. That’s what masteries were supposed to be for. Other than that, the other options would be raising the level cap or adding a new tier of gear, and that’s not going to happen with this game.

SkyShroud.2865:

when reviewers make their game reviews on mmorpg, they make it base on their first impression but never were done with consideration of the developer performance. afterall, is a mmorpg, it is not a single player game or focused game like fps/rts/etc. a through review is necessary if is a mmorpg.

gw2 on first impression did have great score. personally, i too will give gw2 a great score if base on first impression. however, mmorpg will require a greater standard of reviewing because unlike non-MMO titles, MMO title usually have more frequent updates.

considering the performance of the developer, gw2 will not receive a great score any more, at the best, is a good score, with the consideration that is b2p.

i do agree that gw2 is not a great mmorpg when take in consideration of the developer performance. however, there are things i do disagree with you because some of reasons seem more like a personal preferences.

what the hell is ‘developer performance’? compare GW2 to all the other AAAA mmo out there.

vesica tempestas.1563:

SkyShroud.2865:

when reviewers make their game reviews on mmorpg, they make it base on their first impression but never were done with consideration of the developer performance. afterall, is a mmorpg, it is not a single player game or focused game like fps/rts/etc. a through review is necessary if is a mmorpg.

gw2 on first impression did have great score. personally, i too will give gw2 a great score if base on first impression. however, mmorpg will require a greater standard of reviewing because unlike non-MMO titles, MMO title usually have more frequent updates.

considering the performance of the developer, gw2 will not receive a great score any more, at the best, is a good score, with the consideration that is b2p.

i do agree that gw2 is not a great mmorpg when take in consideration of the developer performance. however, there are things i do disagree with you because some of reasons seem more like a personal preferences.

what the hell is ‘developer performance’? compare GW2 to all the other AAAA mmo out there.

if u r comparing to other titles, that is not a review but a comparison.
the most basic developer performance review will be based on the track records

The game is too easy and not diversified enough. That’s why the Elite professions exist; it was a return to the “Holy Trinity” in essence though more covert, from the obvious Support Herald and Healer Druid to the more subtle Bruiser Scrapper and Battlemage Reaper it’s nothing more than a small admittance of defeat.

But it was a good run when they tried. Power Creep is taking it’s toll now in the traits giving everyone instant access to overwhelming power with few players knowing what to actually do with it still stumbling around with the same old builds ignoring their inefficiencies or convincing themselves they don’t exist to say the least.

That is why you are so dissatisfied. There is no puzzle, no new world to overturn, no myths, no math, no thought, and it has become a mindless point and click filled with frivolous RNG that guarantees you nothing more than the sheer ability to claim you won a lottery rather than showing pure skill and ability.

Hundreds of options splayed out but only three viable ones? And that’s build diversity?

I think just about everyone wants the game to be fun for everyone else. The more the merrier goes a long way. We just don’t seem to do a very good job of relaying that when we raise a discussion on an issue because we focus in on the issue and not on how it can affect everyone else. When we pick sides, we stop working on solving the issue together and work towards individual goals that usually prevent solution, (much like politics).

Is it possible to work towards removing some of the in game requirements or restrictions in ways that don’t reduce difficulty, but allow more freedom so that we can all enjoy achieving our individual goals in the game within the areas or parts of the game we enjoy?

I don’t mean changing time gated things. I mean making most loot rewarding achievements obtainable in any area of the game, based on level of success, with possible skin variances, based on level of success.

Why would it matter then whether you enjoy specific content or not, as long as enough enjoy it to keep that part of the game going?

EdenEnix.6341:

Please don’t be put off by the title. I’m not making this thread to bash the game or say any other game is better. I’m making this thread to see if anyone else agrees with the problems I have with this game: meaning the philosophy behind its structure. If my points are valid then I hope the devs will see this and choose a new course for GW2 in future expansions to encourage players to return and keep playing. I love GW2 I truly do. I played this game since beta. But I found myself lacking interest in it for a long time now after playing almost non-stop for about 2 years. This game was hella fun for the first year I played, but by the second year I started noticing things that made me less and less interested and invested in this game until I found myself playing off and on by the third year, and then eventually loosing all interest in this game and lacking motivation to return despite the new expansion and the new content.

you paid $50 for a game and played it non-stop for 2 years… sounds like you got your money’s worth of entertainment a thousand times over.

this is the thing about modern gamers… they expect to pay for a game once and play it 100hours every month for the next 10 years.
how many games out there keep people’s interest after 2 years of playing? i don’t know about you, but even Skyrim and The Witcher 3 can only be played so many hours before you get bored out of your mind…