Why GW2 isnt as epic as it could be

Why GW2 isnt as epic as it could be

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Posted by: undercover.9657

undercover.9657

I was asked to Transfer this Part of the Discussion for Lore into this sector of the Forum – and they are right:

GW2 has many things that making it a good game:
- The World (not going into the details)
- The combat system
- Variety of Equipment
- changing World
- etc

BUT it has some terrible flaws as well:
- it doesnt make EVERYTHING different then other MMOs like that it became an Asia Grinder and the Crafting System is even more annoying as from Aion or that you can now defeat several enemies at once alone (what you have in nearly every other MMO to)

but the major mistake, that absolutely preventing me from being able to overlook the other flaws and enjoy its good sides is the point this discussion shall be about:

GUILD WARS 2 BETRAYED EVERYTHING THAT MADE GUILD WARS ALREADY UNIQUE AND SO MUCH ENJOYABLE

On the first look it is a noble goal to free the players for the dependents of Healers or Tanks, but in the long run it is simply a terrible idea because GW2 given up one major part of the GWs Soul – TEAMWORK – now 80-90% you encounter while exploring are just egomaniacs who arent bother to help you when they see that you struggle with 2-3 more enemies as you could normally handle, even it would just cost them 20 seconds of their time. In Big Group events or Dungeons everybody looks only for his/her self as well because in the mind is “yeah he/she has self heal as i do – they are fine”

and with the self heal we come to the next even greater flaw: the price for giving everybody self heal is simply to high. GW2 ripped out the very heard and soul of the most classes and imply flexibility where only fixed roles are given while GW provide a skill system where nearly every class is able to fulfill the role of an other one – Give me 1 or 2 Hours and i build 3-4 group builds able to encounter nearly every PvE content and nobody needs to be particular skilled in being a healer – just need to understand the game and it skills – and you have not single one who is doing the primary role of his/her class.

to be continued…..

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Posted by: undercover.9657

undercover.9657

so the RIGHT way would have been to simply soften the Primary role boundaries:

if you take the impact of a class in a chart of 100%:
a warrior is basically 80% tank and 20% Damage: if u change his Build you can make him 100% tank or quit a capable Damage dealer witrh 40-50% Tank and 50% damage, but you CANT take away his tankyness (in GW2 you are either Tank OR Damage dealer (what is totally senseless since someone in a Heavy armor can ALWAYS take more hits as a cloth wearer so basicly the Warrior got cut away form what defines it – his/her tankyness)(something in between is considered useless) so the diversity is even lesser as in GW)

A Paragon is around 70% Control/support, 20% Tank and 10% dmg:
You can change him to 50% dmg, 20% tank and 30% control/support (but you cant take it away because his/her concept is based on it)

the same you could do with a Ranger who is around 70% Damage and 20% Sustain (beeing able to survive thinks other DPS classes dont survive) and with the right build 10% control:
so we could have got the possibility given in our hands to change it to somewhat: 30% Dmg, 50% sustain (so he/she can take the place of the tank for a short time or the dmg is good enough) and 20% control/support. but in GW2 Rangers are considered as useless even he can match the dps of most other classes if played right (but what reduces him/her also to only one specific role).

Mesmer: is around 60-80% pure control and 20-40% dmg dependable from the build: now with the illusions we would have a great way to change the setup of this class in following way: 30-40% control, 20% dmg and 40% sustain – but that comes from the CONTROL ability to, because with the illusions you distract the enemies from you and your team and the Interrupts are control AND support because you prevent the team from even taking damage . here we have an other example for totally destroying a class soul: not even the mesmer is a very Unique idea in the range of MMOs – the Interrupts and control ability were its very core

the assassin who is 70-80% damage and trough his/her capability to burst casters (and interrupt) 20-30% control (or full tank with Shadow form): now we could have get the possibility to change it to 40-50% , 20-30% control and 20-40% sustain (to survive even if you are get blown of your hide or need to replace the tank

an other example:the Elementalist: basicly between 90-100% seen for its damage and 10% crowd control and here GW2 made a quiet good job so he/she is (in my eyes) way stronger as the most other classes (in PvE encounters) (since i was able to do the Priests on the Gods statues or the asura legendary in this big statue the Grawl worshiping in the shiverpeaks, alone on full heal): you can change it how the hell you want between sustain+support/heal, Support/heal+control, sustain+control but you cant take its damage away because it is what define this class

the Necromancer: as well as the Elementist from the base concept the right thing, just that the weaponskill system restrict it to much to a specific role – staff to supportiv adn other weapons to much focus on dmg only, while the non-weaponskills are either to much utility or supportiv – because the role of the Necro is, depended from the build either (mainly) Damage/control, control/damage or Support/damage or Control/support because of the ability of this class to either shape the “battlefield” with minions or disrupting the enemy battleplan by weaking skills etc …

to be continued…..

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Posted by: undercover.9657

undercover.9657

so to sum it up once more: GW2 sets you befor the choice of being either tank, damage dealer or support but nothing of it is very resourcefull, cunning or in need of some finesse – because the GW2 skill system is simply TOO flat, basic, restricted and uncreative
tank and support arent even considered as a really viable choise because you can faceroll nearly any content with some fullzerk warriors/eles/mesmers/revents
while in GW, with some knowledge and creativity, are even some effective mix builds are possible

so i understand that it was necessary to simplify the system a bit to open the game for a bigger spectrum of players but was there really the need to destroy the Soul of Guild Wars by making Teamwork (in the most situations) unnecessary, destroying the glory and joy of playing a skillsetup u PERSONALLY created -maybe something nobody other plays but is still effective and completely eradicate the “Holy trinity of MMOs” and with it any strategic deeps that is in order to build a efficient team with it and all in all making 90% of all encounters way to easy (as said with enough practice u can fight up 8 or 10 enemies (including elite and or Veterans) ALONE without really breaking a sweat while in GW there were casual encounters who were able to ruin your day with only 3 enemies if you werent ready or made crucial mistakes (what maybe a bit to extreme too for the most casual players but the difference is a bit to great to be still considered a challenge) ?

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

I don’t especially feel Trinity makes a game ‘epic’. Nor, after some time, did I especially group up in Guild Wars. It’s true, though, that since I could not heal myself, I brought along a healer Henchie/Hero. Are you asking that the game go back to depending on having a healer in each group, and that one should not be able to solo content, since, unlike Guild Wars, there is level-adjustment to maps?

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Posted by: undercover.9657

undercover.9657

no u didn´t get what i want to imply: there was NEVER a real dependence on a healer if you know how the game works and the problem is that GW2 is even more binding to a fixed role as GW1 did and with trinity i not meant only plate+Mage+cleric/priest/monk but as my argument above says: that the core idea of trinity remains, because it needs some degree of tactics. as an example: you have a thief, a ranger, an ele,an ingeneur and say a mesmer —> in GW2 you just shred everything with the dps of ele,mesmer and thief if you had the core idea of trinity and my idea of SOFTENED class roles you maybe come to following solution to archiv your objectiv: The thief taking the main part of attention and “tank” in order of being able to dodge a great amount of a attaks (but still does a great amount of damage since it is his base role), the ranger focus on doing damage but if some enemies break up from the assassin he switches to “offtank” disrupt this enemies and keep them away from the other 3 members who are: the mesmer who is 50% doing dmg 50% interrupt the enemy so the life of the kitten is easier and also help the ranger to keep the “outbreaking” in line. the Ele mainly focus on blowing them into pieces but provies buffs and “heal” (like he/she already can in GW2 as already said) and the Ingeneuer also sets his turrets to provide also a good range of damage but is mostly selected to provide his/her medi-packs across the group since he/she has the armor to also short skip close to the thief in the frontline and is as such the “healer” of the group

(edited by undercover.9657)

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Posted by: CMM.6712

CMM.6712

LFG 2 Monks to go

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

no u didn´t get what i want to imply: there was NEVER a real dependence on a healer if you know how the game works and the problem is that GW2 is even more binding to a fixed role as GW1 did and with trinity i not meant only plate+Mage+cleric/priest/monk but as my argument above says: that the core idea of trinity remains, because it needs some degree of tactics. as an example: you have a thief, a ranger, an ele,an ingeneur and say a mesmer —> in GW2 you just shred everything with the dps of ele,mesmer and thief if you had the core idea of trinity and my idea of SOFTENED class roles you maybe come to following solution to archiv your objectiv: The thief taking the main part of attention and “tank” in order of being able to dodge a great amount of a attaks (but still does a great amount of damage since it is his base role), the ranger focus on doing damage but if some enemies break up from the assassin he switches to “offtank” disrupt this enemies and keep them away from the other 3 members who are: the mesmer who is 50% doing dmg 50% interrupt the enemy so the life of the kitten is easier and also help the ranger to keep the “outbreaking” in line. the Ele mainly focus on blowing them into pieces but provies buffs and “heal” (like he/she already can in GW2 as already said) and the Ingeneuer also sets his turrets to provide also a good range of damage but is mostly selected to provide his/her medi-packs across the group since he/she has the armor to also short skip close to the thief in the frontline and is as such the “healer” of the group

what you say here already exists except the tank role in 5 man or open world and what you state for most classes works like that in raids no class other that ele atm is only picked for 1 think, sure one thing they do better but the provide so much more on top of that.

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Posted by: undercover.9657

undercover.9657

other very good examples for “softened” and flexible class roles are the SoS ritualist and the Minion Master:

SoS: while the primary idea is DOING damage it also capable to distract and Block enemies for quiet a while —> tank role AND by only picking “Shelter” as well you can provide powerful protection for the group making you part support

MM: mostly there do just block the minions are very capable of doing damage and while the minions are alive the Necro himself is also quiet resilient aganist damage —> transforing a dps class in an offtank

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Posted by: Maximus Delion.8719

Maximus Delion.8719

I really do miss the team-oriented approach of Guild Wars, and I really wish ArenaNet would have continued developing it in parallel with Guild Wars 2. They each have a very distinct game-play style, and I enjoy both of them for different reasons. Even if they never added new professions or skills, I would have liked to see the Guild Wars Beyond updates continue so we could get new challenges and stories — including cross-over lore between the two games.

Sure, the graphics do look dated when you go back to some of the original maps. But Eye of the North had some pretty good looking areas in The Tarnished Coast and the charr homelands: http://atyrianodyssey.com/gw/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/sacnoth-valley_entry.jpg

If they brought the texture in the original areas up to that level and maybe gave the character models an overhaul, it could still pass as a decent looking game nowadays.

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

Meh … there is only one problem and it doesn’t need that many words to describe it.

GW2 simply doesn’t have very many interesting fights. Partly because the enemies seem to lack any sort of intelligence while the combat system requires enemies to have more than other games(at the time of release). For example being able to LoS stack enemies should have been fixed ages ago. Instead they have to make every boss room into a circle devoid of any other feature.

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Posted by: undercover.9657

undercover.9657

what you say here already exists except the tank role in 5 man or open world and what you state for most classes works like that in raids no class other that ele atm is only picked for 1 think, sure one thing they do better but the provide so much more on top of that.

expect the fact that their is no need for distraction or interruption because the enemies either just plob away or you can alone take care of survival (but isnt bad but keeps you (as Dps or “healer”) away from your considered agenda and should only be for some crossfireing Boss AoE or the bad situation the main “tanks” go down

the fine thing about the core-idea of Trinity is that everybody (if every role is played correct) can do exactly that what one can do best (and it wouldnt matter if you are for example a Ranger Tank or a Warrior tank) without being distracted by take parts of other roles as long it doesnt fit in your set up – while for example a Damage Paragon builds up so much adrenalin that he can still provide “Save your self” quite often. or as example in GW2 haveing a Sigil of Water in your Staff and at least a bit Healing power your fireball provides what id should do: DAMAGE but u still give quiet some heal to the frontline without being distracted by it

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Posted by: Hyper Cutter.9376

Hyper Cutter.9376

Teamwork stopped being necessary in GW1 when they introduced henchmen that weren’t complete garbage and then later heroes and then even later let you run with a full team of heroes.

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Posted by: coso.9173

coso.9173

I don’t think everyone looks for their own in group content, I see lots of people helping revive downed players and helping eachother all the time.
I personally love not having to depend on the hideous trinity.

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Posted by: undercover.9657

undercover.9657

well it isnt as said a noble idea but somehow it gets ridicules that mages can even witout magic, with gear only, be as sturdy as a plate wearer and this ones at the other hand can (and mostly are in GW2) are squishier as Assas ever were in GW.

and as said too, it makes the game to easy, in the most parts because:
if you can kill the transmorphed Grwal Priest alone as fullheal gurdian with literly no dmg (because team was to dump to move so they needed to rezz each other all the time and unable to relise that they need to break his shield)in a lv 25 Frectal with only 5 AR or Kill in Orr 1 Elite mesmer,2 veteran Necromancer and 8 normal Undeads (mixed classes) effortlessly ALONE (as heal mage) you cant seriously call this game a challenge

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Posted by: Svennis.3852

Svennis.3852

As far as my experience with the game/community of players go, I find people helping me out in tough situations more often than not. Jumping in if I’m struggling, reviving me if they find me dead or downed, etc.

Maybe you have bad luck in regards to that. Personally I prefer being able to solo most of the game. I LOVED playing the healer role in gw1, but the game was so dependent on healers you COULD NOT progress through the game’s story without a good healer or two. It was great to play a healer in that game cause I could always find a party.

You can spec roles like Elem (Water attune) to be a great healer for bigger events. Druid and Necro can also make good healers with the right specs. So it’s definitely an option if you want a classic support role, there’s just no specific “healer/cleric/monk” class.

Honestly getting rid of healers is one of the most unique things gameplay wise that gw2 has done imo.

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

No dedicated, required pocket healers in order to do content. Thanks. They come with their own set of problems.

Does anyone remember these cartoons from before launch?

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ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: undercover.9657

undercover.9657

i love it how many people dont get the point of my argument …..

i said if you keep the COREIDEA of Trinity but remove the strict class roles, everyone would need to play and understand their class better, because you dont have to wait for a specific class to build your team but still need to base your advance on tactics instead of faceroll fullzerg damage