Guild Wars 2

…more than elitists.

This is a slight rant, otherwise there’d be no motivation to post, nor will there be any unnecessary steps to be nice. Saying it like it is, but if discussion were to take place, let’s just keep it civil and exchange opinions. No need to deride, no need to be rude.

Speaking of opinions, this shall be mine.

WoW is usually held up or down as some sort of universal comparison tool. Not because it is the most accurate depiction of what an mmo should be, but being around for so long, it encompasses an audience and a very varied content we’d be able to relate to.

As raids were highly organized, merits would usually be earned one way or another through personal favors or exceptional gameplay. But let’s stick to the latter for this post’s relevance. This elusive reference of “skill” would often be nurtured and be used for bragging rights for whichever silly reason. But to further augment this skill, there are character/profession builds to optimize whatever you contribute to the party.

Thus an elitist age of gameplay claws its way into the foreground. People’s gear, build and gameplay would be scrutinized and stringent criteria for LFG/LFM would come into play. Personally, this handicap would only be a temporary bane for anyone’s continued interest or access to content if you made a reasonable effort to be prepared instead of being carried by strangers.

I find it unsettling when newbies run off into the sunset and cry about being kicked from parties or walk away from a good run feeling as if they contributed something meaningful when in actual fact, they were carried very snugly by others who made an extra effort to gear or read up on content. But they’re newbies, they’re too ignorant to know better. That’s no sin.

The problem is exacerbated when Guild Wars 2 or related media positions this game to be all about playing the way YOU want it and further cemented by long time carebears. Some of you have probably run dungeons with really nice people whom you thought probably grew marshmallows out of their ears if you ever met them in person. Along the way, their child would cry, or the postman would come, or silly mistakes which you probably overcame on your second run but they still fall victim even though they have over 4000 achievement points (an inaccurate reference but it is something we inevitably draw a conclusion about a player’s “experience” with the game). Then the run takes 3 times longer than it should have. There is a point when a relaxed pace turns into a waste of time.

Now because of this “it’s all about you” campaign, sometimes out of my own folly i overstep the line and give unsolicited advice. My bad. Tried to give advice to the bow/rifle toting warrior who put out 3 different banners + elite banner, that guardian in full soldier gear running staff/scepter while the rest of the team gets massacred, and other colorful varieties of “fail”. But they like their build they said. It’s their right, I don’t pay the bills.

You see, when an elitist culture is set in, your feelings are hurt, but nobody’s time gets wasted. But when someone stubbornly convinced it’s all about him, nevermind playing the better way, other people has to pay for his mistakes. See the contrast?

Now, this post is already very long, and the above situations are heavily simplified. Please do not nitpick at analogies or examples, just get the gist of things and that’s fine.

Point? This game has gone down the gutter coaster too much in the direction of “I play it my way”. It’s true I can choose not to pug, on the otherhand, I’m not alone on this yearning for a little less anonymity of who we invite to the party when we’re pugging.

So really, who’s the selfish one?

Why do all of these super players have trouble finding groups? The forum is filled with people who carry their groups all the time. Why don’t you all get together and form an informal guild? That way no one will ever have to worry about others not knowing what to do or need to be told they are a noob.

Guild Wars 2 doesn’t promote elitism. Elitist players can’t relax enough to enjoy the game and not worry about rushing everywhere. I get through dungeons just fine and I’d never want to group with you OP. Because you think you’re better than other people.

It’s nice that you want to run dungeons fast/fast/fast. So join a guild of fast fast fast people and run your dungeons. No worries. You’ve done yourself a service by teaming up with like-minded people. Sorta what guilds are for, one would think. Make your own, choose your dungeon partners and be elite. Go you.

But there are a lot of people who don’t really care that much how long a run takes, because they’re, get this, having fun. Fun is the thing you’re supposed to do when you play games. It’s fun to hang out with friends and have a good time and yes, clear content.

But don’t say this game promotes a problem. The problem here is yours. Your inability to see any way to pay a game besides the way you see it.

If you don’t want to play with “bads” stop pugging and get yourself a guild of elitists. You’ll all be very happy together.

The funny bit is, the very math that makes WoW a better choice for someone like you, is the very thing that breaks immersion enough for someone like me to not want to play the game in the first place.

to counterpoint your thread, I would like to mention this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/About-elitism-in-MMOs/first#content

it purpose is to highlight this thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7864486403?page=1

if you expect a certain level of experience, you prevent those who do not have that experience for gaining that experience. or, in other words, if you refuse to teach, how can they learn?

The last thing I’d advocate for this game is to be like WoW. I reference between the two games to draw 2 extreme opposites.

Not because I favor one over the other. When a game becomes to rigid, it ultimately becomes a chore. Likewise you do not wish to finish a run exasperated. I understand every community has its share of over eager individuals.

If you read my post assuming i was some sort of hard liner, I’d hope you’d take another read without that prejudice in mind.

Personally the only time I do get annoyed at people is when they are ignorant but do not question then arrive at a situational fubar. I am very welcoming of the idea that everyone starts somewhere. No reasonable person would reject someone who’s willing to learn (this statement comes with its own implications but I’ll deal with it if someone calls it out later).

edit

And having read Kitana’s post, yes, that is an escalation of elitism to unreasonable standards. When content is new, LFG requirements were basic requirements, and as it matures people expect overgeared quick and easy runs shutting out a large number of players access to content. One could argue they too could’ve formed their own guild but, that is of course an over the edge escalation of events.

And I’m not looking for a WoW clone. I left that game after Sunwell and just went back to play a little bit of WOLTK.

I’d rather just run a fractals/dungeon with people that have a competent gear set. Such as the correct amount of agony to survive and no magic find gear. Even that is apparently too much to ask for fractals/dungeons.

Uncle Salty.6342:

The problem is exacerbated when Guild Wars 2 or related media positions this game to be all about playing the way YOU want it and further cemented by long time carebears. Along the way, their child would cry, or the postman would come, or silly mistakes which you probably overcame on your second run but they still fall victim even though they have over 4000 achievement points (an inaccurate reference but it is something we inevitably draw a conclusion about a player’s “experience” with the game). Then the run takes 3 times longer than it should have. There is a point when a relaxed pace turns into a waste of time.

Now because of this “it’s all about you” campaign, sometimes out of my own folly i overstep the line and give unsolicited advice. My bad. Tried to give advice to the bow/rifle toting warrior who put out 3 different banners + elite banner, that guardian in full soldier gear running staff/scepter while the rest of the team gets massacred, and other colorful varieties of “fail”. But they like their build they said. It’s their right, I don’t pay the bills.

You see, when an elitist culture is set in, your feelings are hurt, but nobody’s time gets wasted. But when someone stubbornly convinced it’s all about him, nevermind playing the better way, other people has to pay for his mistakes. See the contrast?

Point? This game has gone down the gutter coaster too much in the direction of “I play it my way”. It’s true I can choose not to pug, on the otherhand, I’m not alone on this yearning for a little less anonymity of who we invite to the party when we’re pugging.

So really, who’s the selfish one?

I’m not exactly sure if you’re trying to veil your post in a "I should get to tell others how to play their character and they don’t like it because Anet has pushed it’s a ‘your way’ game, or not.

I’ve been in TA with a player who’s been here since beta if not before. Sometimes he still dies to blossoms! I’m getting better, I died to them yesterday. Who cares?

On my ele, which I don’t really play that much, I use a scepter and focus, not dagger/dagger. They don’t care. Our runs are fine. No one is starting a stopwatch and timing how long the runs take. I like scepter/focus and will never go dagger/dagger. Cause I just don’t care. I will play my ele my way.

The selfish ones are the players who try and tell others how to play. Who push their views on how another player is wrong, they are right and if they would just play your way, all would be fine. That is a selfish player.

So what if the warrior wanted to play bow/rifle. It’s selfish of the person trying to get him to change what he enjoys playing, not the other way around.

Elitism really hit it’s high with character transparency in WoW. Armory, inspection, mods like gearscore before they just went ahead and built it into the game.

Unfortunately those attitudes continue to bleed over into other games. What Anet needs to do is stay the course, not allow stat inspection and not support those who want to tell others how to play.

A player who plays the game the way they want to play is fine. A player who tries and tell another player how to play their game is the selfish one.

The expression “long time carebears” is inflammatory. GW2 has a more mature player base than WoW and there is generally not a lot of name calling, or ‘put downs’ of the player base like is allowed in other games.

Precisely, whilst WoW has gone over the edge in requirements. Asking for basics over here runs the risk of you being lambasted.

We’re at two extreme ends of the spectrum over here.

Calling someone an elitist is just as inflammatory as calling someone a carebear. It merely represents two different schools of thought so to speak.

Somehow or rather having written a rather lengthy post, it’s almost as if people have just glanced through the entire post and selective unread words which place where I stand on newer players assuming I’m sort of mercenary hardcore. It’s understandable where you’re coming from. Likewise being misunderstood isn’t at all pleasant. I’ll let this run a little while longer then take it down.

It’s rather pointless when it’s two passing trains.

Elite players?

I personally never seen this but I seen players who hate it when a warrior walks into a dungeon with weak magic find armor or just plain ill equipped.

Now salty I am trying to find your argument, but it sounds like you are venting after being booted from bad party. I would suggest getting over it and finding a new party, if it happens that you die a lot … try to figure out the stats you need to survive or increase your role in the party.

Stop reading other people’s idea of builds, make your own… that way you know how to play that build. If you can’t tank, aoe some damage, if you can’t do that, go to healing and support, if you can’t do that… figure out what you WANT to do.

Thanks for your concern, but it is quite the contrary.

GW2 itself does not promote selfish gameplay.
The whole “play how you want” “it’s all about you” is marketing jargon, you’re free to ask for specific builds before you start a run.
GW1 pugs were no different, there were tons of wammos LFGing in DoA and FoW.
Pretty sure that if you start requiring a certain setup people will adapt; the problem is that you get people randomly without checking.

The other day I wanted a failsafe speedrun, I LFG’d for 3 zerk warriors and 1 support guardian, I got exactly what I wanted.
Try to LFG for the builds you want and you’ll get the comp you want.

The problem is, many people are so obsessed with the "Play the way you want " gw2 motto that they forget each person freedom ends where someone else’ start.

So they get upset, feel like the game mechanics have betrayed the marketing, see all their bad experiences in other MMO come afloat and start kittening about elitism, treadmilss, cookie cutters and so on.
Truth is, they dont realize there is only so much that can be done, and every step forward to make the game more accessible&fun for them will be a step backward for someone else’s.

Soulstar.7812:

Uncle Salty.6342:

Thanks for your concern, but it is quite the contrary.

Did they other players get angry because you were ill-equipped?

Try focusing on stats, and the what kind of damage you want to do…
Are you dying quickly?

Well to put things in perspective, I was running AC. One of the most basic dungeons in GW2. It finished without a hitch.

There was this warrior though, everyone knows warriors are dps machines. But agreed there ARE other builds. In his case, he was undoubtedly gunning to be a support warrior. I have absolutely no pre-conceived judgement on that just to be clear for speed readers.

We did path 1 and 2 and in both instances he was savagely violated by scavengers. Because he placed tac/disc/ and that banner which gives power, you’d correctly assume his utility skills were all banners.

I advised him in whisper to probably put on shake it off and take off one of the banners. Stating that it was probably too much of a sacrifice in self sustainability in this instance. He said he liked his build and I didn’t add anything further. As i quote from my OP, I don’t pay the bills. It’s his right. There’s no sarcasm in saying this.

If you’re familliar with WoW, and in my saying the last time I went near it was WOLTK, than you’d know it’s been a good many years since. Thus i draw the contrast between people who’re engrossed with min/maxing and people who’re just satisfied with themselves. Not because I’m still entrenched in crunching numbers and studying my dps meter log.

Do concede the fact that WoW has plunged over the cliff, and GW2 will have its own version of woes.

Can somebody explain what “elitism” is? Cause lately if you are not noob you are more likely to be labeled as “elitist”. Oh, you know how to do FotM? Elitist. Oh, you are full exotic? Elitist Oh, you found about some great build and wish to help in dungeon by using it? Elitist
Elitism is something that noobs made up so they can feel better about self. I could cry now about spvp elitist that want r40+ for tournaments but i don’t cause i know they spend time to LEARN game and are better then me.

Uncle Salty.6342:

…more than elitists.

The problem is exacerbated when Guild Wars 2 or related media positions this game to be all about playing the way YOU want it and further cemented by long time carebears. Some of you have probably run dungeons with really nice people whom you thought probably grew marshmallows out of their ears if you ever met them in person. Along the way, their child would cry, or the postman would come, or silly mistakes which you probably overcame on your second run but they still fall victim even though they have over 4000 achievement points (an inaccurate reference but it is something we inevitably draw a conclusion about a player’s “experience” with the game). Then the run takes 3 times longer than it should have. There is a point when a relaxed pace turns into a waste of time.

You see, when an elitist culture is set in, your feelings are hurt, but nobody’s time gets wasted. But when someone stubbornly convinced it’s all about him, nevermind playing the better way, other people has to pay for his mistakes. See the contrast?

Point? This game has gone down the gutter coaster too much in the direction of “I play it my way”. It’s true I can choose not to pug, on the otherhand, I’m not alone on this yearning for a little less anonymity of who we invite to the party when we’re pugging.

So really, who’s the selfish one?

The game was marketed and sold a s a game who respects the fact that you have real life commitments and as such you can choose how to play.
This is not news.

it is a game- if you take it so seriously that you feel your time is wasted by playing with people who play for fun and giggles then don’t- you sound pretty selfish here actually.

You are free to create your own parties with your own requirements- the game is not going down the gutter because other people don’t play the way you want.

Morrigan.2809:

The game was marketed and sold a s a game who respects the fact that you have real life commitments and as such you can choose how to play.

Well that is not this game anymore, with FotM (agony) and all these speedruns that they don’t want to change.

Isn’t the “problem” you describe related to random groups? People grouping up always seem to expect that everyone in a group has the same abilities, similar gear and the same dedication but how can you expect that?

This somehow goes for both “groups”. So why don’t you guys talk in advance. I for my part would prefer to know in adavance if a group is expecting me to know all mechanics etc or if I’m given the time to learn. It is also a bit strange to expect people to change their skills etc. in between. It might happen that someone is not familiar with all his classes mechanics, that he needs some time to try out and a dungeon run is probably the worst oportunity to do so. If you don’t have the patience do deal with the “carebears” like the TO called them then don’t go PUG.

When it comes to dungeons I’m pretty nooby and I personally stay away from this kind of groups because the last thing I need in an unfamiliar environment is someone who is frowning about every single step I do.

Sovta.4719:

Morrigan.2809:

The game was marketed and sold a s a game who respects the fact that you have real life commitments and as such you can choose how to play.

Well that is not this game anymore, with FotM (agony) and all these speedruns that they don’t want to change.

It is exactly that game- I don’t agree with FoTM but it hasn’t changed the way I play at all no-one is forcing me to do Fractals and I don’t.

Anet is not responsible for speed- runs players are.

Pirlipat.2479:

Isn’t the “problem” you describe related to random groups? People grouping up always seem to expect that everyone in a group has the same abilities, similar gear and the same dedication but how can you expect that?

This somehow goes for both “groups”. So why don’t you guys talk in advance. I for my part would prefer to know in adavance if a group is expecting me to know all mechanics etc or if I’m given the time to learn. It is also a bit strange to expect people to change their skills etc. in between. It might happen that someone is not familiar with all his classes mechanics, that he needs some time to try out and a dungeon run is probably the worst oportunity to do so. If you don’t have the patience do deal with the “carebears” like the TO called them then don’t go PUG.

When it comes to dungeons I’m pretty nooby and I personally stay away from this kind of groups because the last thing I need in an unfamiliar environment is someone who is frowning about every single step I do.

But that’s it, it appears you want to learn.
If i like to play necro pets it’s ok in open world, but if i try to use it on Lupicus in Arah it is NOT ok, cause we will probably fail just cause of my minions. If i don’t want to change it, my party WILL kick me.
I don’t see why sometimes someone doesn’t want to change ONE utility for the whole PARTY benefit. Who is selfish there?

What I wanted to say is: make clear what you expect from someone in advance. If you want to do a speed run or don’t have the patience with people then tell them. It does not even have to seem elitist if you do so, if you explain your motivation and maybe the reasons (only few time, etc.). It would be cool if people who are very familiar with dungeon took their time from time to time and did a slow run with some newbies but what I mean mainly is TALK.

Also with this guy who did not want to change his skills. EXPLAIN him and don’t command to do so. He might be utterly stubborn but thats a personal problem you can have with experienced and non-experienced people.

That is why LFG site now has speedrun and experienced only options.
They will probably make it ingame one day, so you will either learn to play or argue about it in queensdale chat.

Sounds like you are pugging. “Elites” don’t pug. Don’t inflict yourself on anyone but your peers. Find a group of superior beings and go have your perfect game time. You will be happier.

There isn’t a single set way to win an encounter, or dungeon past “did it die” at the end. There is a broad spectrum of ways to accomplish that task.

One of the most fun times I ever had in EQ2 was doing Runnyeye2 one time, our tank poofed (electric outage) and I ended up Tanking the run.. on an assassin, cause I had the most armor of those left, chain, and a roundshield in my bag. I was pretty avoidance spec anyway.. but sometimes it is fun to do things in a less than optimal manner.

Now, all that aside, after 10 years of dungeons, I just choose not to do them now. I am playing the way I wish to. 10 years of listening to class elitism (LF chain healer, no leather) playstyle elitism (LF curse necro, no MM) spec elitism (LF Buckler spec Zerk only) gear elitetism (LFG for xyz must have Fabled) for dungeons that could be done with vendor gear and a semi-awake healer.

Elitism trickles down from the content that needs it to infect the minds of people entering basic starter dungeons. The perceptions of the raid tank spec needed to win WW firsts in raid content in EQ2 infects the perceptions of people wanting a tank to run the Orc Cave in the commonlands.

And it happens here as well. People are already complaining that Mes or War get the only “group slots” when there is no proof you need either class to beat a dungeon.

I don’t care anymore.

Every game promotes selfish gameplay, in some form or another. And every game promotes selfless behavior or group-based behavior, in some form or another. We can sit here and cherry pick examples all day long but the core of the matter doesn’t change.

People play how they want to play, but this can be altered as they are encouraged by mechanics and social pressure to play a certain way. That’s what’s going on slowly and steadily the more people bang on the war drums one way or the other.

I play a ranger main; I’m pretty much automatically not wanted on speed clears due to that. I don’t use standard builds, I tend to home-grow mine to suit what I think works best. Roughly 7 out of 10 times it works passably well; while it can work better, and it can be tweaked . . . I’ve had mixed success with that.

(Confession time: I couldn’t land a D-shot in GW1 to save my life. Literally. Savage Shot, on the other hand, I could land like clockwork even on 1/4sec casting time Mesmer spells. Don’t know how, it just worked better for me.)

I’ve said this before, the thing isn’t that elitism or being picky about your group composition is bad. It’s being crappy about it to people, rather than a polite “no thanks, you’re not quite what we’re looking for” . . . that’s bad. And the reverse is true – burning elitists in strawman effigies isn’t good. They do have valid points sometimes (“we don’t want to spend a long time on this, just knock it out and get on with it”) even if people don’t like them. They have the right to play just how they want, same as every other player.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Every game promotes selfish gameplay, in some form or another. And every game promotes selfless behavior or group-based behavior, in some form or another. We can sit here and cherry pick examples all day long but the core of the matter doesn’t change.

People play how they want to play, but this can be altered as they are encouraged by mechanics and social pressure to play a certain way. That’s what’s going on slowly and steadily the more people bang on the war drums one way or the other.

I play a ranger main; I’m pretty much automatically not wanted on speed clears due to that. I don’t use standard builds, I tend to home-grow mine to suit what I think works best. Roughly 7 out of 10 times it works passably well; while it can work better, and it can be tweaked . . . I’ve had mixed success with that.

(Confession time: I couldn’t land a D-shot in GW1 to save my life. Literally. Savage Shot, on the other hand, I could land like clockwork even on 1/4sec casting time Mesmer spells. Don’t know how, it just worked better for me.)

I’ve said this before, the thing isn’t that elitism or being picky about your group composition is bad. It’s being crappy about it to people, rather than a polite “no thanks, you’re not quite what we’re looking for” . . . that’s bad. And the reverse is true – burning elitists in strawman effigies isn’t good. They do have valid points sometimes (“we don’t want to spend a long time on this, just knock it out and get on with it”) even if people don’t like them. They have the right to play just how they want, same as every other player.

Exactly. Most posts have been either burning one end of the bridge or the other which was neither my intent but acknowledging the shortcomings of either. It was getting to be quite distressing reading replies with rather obvious pre-conceived prejudice. This guy must be an elitist, burn him!

Pirlipat.2479:

What I wanted to say is: make clear what you expect from someone in advance. If you want to do a speed run or don’t have the patience with people then tell them. It does not even have to seem elitist if you do so, if you explain your motivation and maybe the reasons (only few time, etc.). It would be cool if people who are very familiar with dungeon took their time from time to time and did a slow run with some newbies but what I mean mainly is TALK.

Also with this guy who did not want to change his skills. EXPLAIN him and don’t command to do so. He might be utterly stubborn but thats a personal problem you can have with experienced and non-experienced people.

See you assumed I commanded him or tried to force my views on him, probably from your own past experiences. Which in no way I hinted in that direction. I explained giving up a banner would help him survive better. That is more beneficial. His reply was “I like my build”. Anyone who’s well equipped enough to read between the lines would know to stop. Which I did.

Don’t assume I forced my views on him. Enough assumptions flying around these posts to make my head spin.

kitanas.3596:

to counterpoint your thread, I would like to mention this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/About-elitism-in-MMOs/first#content

it purpose is to highlight this thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7864486403?page=1

if you expect a certain level of experience, you prevent those who do not have that experience for gaining that experience. or, in other words, if you refuse to teach, how can they learn?

How can they learn? Youtube? Wiki? Friends? Guild? The problem is that their is no room for good players (elitists). Even top players got banned for finding something smart in the game. That’s also why on the most popular streaming website twitch, that gw2 has 200 viewers and elitist games 2000-50000 viewers. Also they will never be an esport this way, like they wanted. At the end of the day, anet just screws them-selfs. They created a skill-less grind money game. Well, then they don’t diserve to be a great game. I played gw1 soooo much, i loved it. If they create gw2 like this, i’m glad that so many players quited the game + they aren’t an esport game. If they keep the game like this, they won’t get far as a company.

After reading through your posts after the OP I am getting a different impression of what you want, it was not very clearly stated. It is good in my opinion to give advice, if that advice is taken and the group/player benefits great, if not well there are other areas of gameplay so no big deal. This link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority gives a good example of what often happens in groups though.

If a player is super-awesome amazing, can do everything incredibly well, smoothly and reliable then… why is that player doing PuG’s all the time?

Either way, I don’t care how long a dungeon run takes me. If I say I’ll do it, I’ll see it to the end unless something does come up as, well, life is a tad more important to me. I’ve been in PuG groups where some people would mess up a lot, or even one person, or someone would go afk for some things (tending a child, for instance) and I never mind at all. I’m just there to have fun and I do have fun in dungeons (even ones that take a hellishly long time) if the people I’m with are lax, fun people to be around.

I usually only do runs with my guild anyway, but even then there are people who are new and want to learn so I don’t mind if they err or what have you. It’s a social aspect of the game I like, enjoy, for the social aspect. All the fun gets ripped away once you encounter these “elitists” who kick anyone they deem ill-fit, and throw temper tantrums when they don’t get their way.

If you want everything to go smoothly, well, without issue, then don’t PuG. Get a guild group together. With a PuG, you should be prepared to deal with players who don’t know the dungeon, who will make mistakes and so on. I guess that’s why I’m always, usually, pleasantly surprised with them when I have to get in one.

I guess I just don’t see how it’s selfish. To play a game, one shouldn’t be required to look up all the boss fights, all the encounters before hand… that just absolutely kills the game’s fun factor. For me to play with someone, they don’t need to be at a certain skill level, or what-have-you.

CoRtex.2157:

How can they learn? Youtube? Wiki? Friends? Guild? The problem is that their is no room for good players (elitists). Even top players got banned for finding something smart in the game. That’s also why on the most popular streaming website twitch, that gw2 has 200 viewers and elitist games 2000-50000 viewers. Also they will never be an esport this way, like they wanted. At the end of the day, anet just screws them-selfs. They created a skill-less grind money game. Well, then they don’t diserve to be a great game. I played gw1 soooo much, i loved it. If they create gw2 like this, i’m glad that so many players quited the game + they aren’t an esport game. If they keep the game like this, they won’t get far as a company.

First, please proofread your posts, it’s hard to make out what you’re trying to say.

Second, I get the idea you’re pulling those Twitch TV numbers right out of someplace dark and cramped. Especially because you’re not naming competing games.

Third, GW1 was an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics, and a whole pile of problems. It never could be an e-sport either. Was it a great game? I dunno, I liked it. Is GW2 a great game? I dunno, I like it. How do you measure a “great game”?

Lastly, I think it’s in poor taste to wish people failure because you don’t like what they produced. If you don’t like it to the point you want to trash it, then walk away. Walk away, and go find something else worth your time. You’re not doing yourself any good dwelling on it, and you’re burning up your limited time dealing with something you don’t even like.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

CoRtex.2157:

How can they learn? Youtube? Wiki? Friends? Guild? The problem is that their is no room for good players (elitists). Even top players got banned for finding something smart in the game. That’s also why on the most popular streaming website twitch, that gw2 has 200 viewers and elitist games 2000-50000 viewers. Also they will never be an esport this way, like they wanted. At the end of the day, anet just screws them-selfs. They created a skill-less grind money game. Well, then they don’t diserve to be a great game. I played gw1 soooo much, i loved it. If they create gw2 like this, i’m glad that so many players quited the game + they aren’t an esport game. If they keep the game like this, they won’t get far as a company.

First, please proofread your posts, it’s hard to make out what you’re trying to say.

Second, I get the idea you’re pulling those Twitch TV numbers right out of someplace dark and cramped. Especially because you’re not naming competing games.

Third, GW1 was an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics, and a whole pile of problems. It never could be an e-sport either. Was it a great game? I dunno, I liked it. Is GW2 a great game? I dunno, I like it. How do you measure a “great game”?

Lastly, I think it’s in poor taste to wish people failure because you don’t like what they produced. If you don’t like it to the point you want to trash it, then walk away. Walk away, and go find something else worth your time. You’re not doing yourself any good dwelling on it, and you’re burning up your limited time dealing with something you don’t even like.

Unfortunately he is right. Don’t get me wrong, i wish this game to be great, i wish they fix all these issuse so BOTH sides will be satisfied, but for now this game is not really that skill based (with is also how it was marketed) but grind based.

Kit.3986:

If a player is super-awesome amazing, can do everything incredibly well, smoothly and reliable then… why is that player doing PuG’s all the time?

Either way, I don’t care how long a dungeon run takes me. If I say I’ll do it, I’ll see it to the end unless something does come up as, well, life is a tad more important to me. I’ve been in PuG groups where some people would mess up a lot, or even one person, or someone would go afk for some things (tending a child, for instance) and I never mind at all. I’m just there to have fun and I do have fun in dungeons (even ones that take a hellishly long time) if the people I’m with are lax, fun people to be around.

I usually only do runs with my guild anyway, but even then there are people who are new and want to learn so I don’t mind if they err or what have you. It’s a social aspect of the game I like, enjoy, for the social aspect. All the fun gets ripped away once you encounter these “elitists” who kick anyone they deem ill-fit, and throw temper tantrums when they don’t get their way.

If you want everything to go smoothly, well, without issue, then don’t PuG. Get a guild group together. With a PuG, you should be prepared to deal with players who don’t know the dungeon, who will make mistakes and so on. I guess that’s why I’m always, usually, pleasantly surprised with them when I have to get in one.

I guess I just don’t see how it’s selfish. To play a game, one shouldn’t be required to look up all the boss fights, all the encounters before hand… that just absolutely kills the game’s fun factor. For me to play with someone, they don’t need to be at a certain skill level, or what-have-you.

Builds are varied. Elitism is an extreme end of the spectrum. And certain builds exist which are utterly ineffective yet played, being the other end of the spectrum. If you acknowledge Elitism, you’d have to acknowledge the latter point. These you’d have to agree before there is any meeting of minds. You can’t have one and not the other.

Regarding pugs.

I confess I enjoy pugs more than I enjoy playing with friends. Even recently I had a heated exchange with a friend because I prefered to pug more than run with them. Odd? Admittedly so.

Here’s why. In pugs, there are high points and with it comes low points as well. By encountering both, you learn. I’m all about learning and bettering my game. One shouldn’t have to do homework before playing a dungeon, that’s agreeable. My philosophy would be to do so, as my greatest fear is always burdening my party. I’d be on a guilt trip if I did.

In one of my prior posts I do state that leeway should be given to newer players. Rightfully so. But a line has to be drawn somewhere. As there are players who kick or cuss indiscriminately, there are players who will keep mum even if they are clueless or react negatively in an effort to conceal that fact.

I feel that, this marketing strategy further amplifies this negative point. This thread has never been about whether newbies should be allowed into parties. No.

Sovta.4719:

Unfortunately he is right. Don’t get me wrong, i wish this game to be great, i wish they fix all these issuse so BOTH sides will be satisfied, but for now this game is not really that skill based (with is also how it was marketed) but grind based.

That’s not the problem I had with his post, and I’m not saying he’s wrong on that point. I could debate it but . . . why? I’m not going to change minds on that point, people who have already determined that the grind is what shapes this game aren’t going to be convinced even if I cranked out a 6 hour video documenting how you can still get reasonable gear and not grind for it.

The big reason I singled that post out like that was because it was:

- Poorly written and unclear of what was being said. I had to read it a few times to get what he was saying.
- Combative. “They deserve to fail” is an attitude which helps absolutely nobody, and it prevents anyone from seeing a way for the situation to improve. It’s simply “no, it failed, throw it out and start over” with no constructive words involved.

Uncle Salty.6342

Don’t assume I forced my views on him. Enough assumptions flying around these posts to make my head spin.

Lol, you seem to be pretty sensitive, it was not my intention to bash you or to say you did wrong. Like I said some people are very stubborn. So if you explained him, it’s fine but sometimes you will meet people who don’t want to change their behavior/skills etc. no matter what you say or do. But that is neither related to non-experienced guys nor to GW2 in general.

On the other hand there are people who only command and expect that someone is doing what they say even though they don’t make the use of their suggestions clear.

Digressing, I’ve never liked to delve into the grind vs whatever that isn’t discussion. Because the only means of a non grind, is a progression of events or content in perpetuity.

This would require vast resources. In a money stand point, the current model wouldn’t support such an investment. But since this is another issue, let’s leave this out of this thread. Thank you.

Pirlipat.2479:

Uncle Salty.6342

Don’t assume I forced my views on him. Enough assumptions flying around these posts to make my head spin.

Lol, you seem to be pretty sensitive, it was not my intention to bash you or to say you did wrong. Like I said some people are very stubborn. So if you explained him, it’s fine but sometimes you will meet people who don’t want to change their behavior/skills etc. no matter what you say or do. But that is neither related to non-experienced guys nor to GW2 in general.

On the other hand there are people who only command and expect that someone is doing what they say even though they don’t make the use of their suggestions clear.

Well I might’ve been. But I was more focused on steering away inaccuracies when you read replies born from selective reading and digressing from the intended issue. It wears you down.

Uncle Salty.6342:

…more than elitists.

This is a slight rant, otherwise there’d be no motivation to post, nor will there be any unnecessary steps to be nice. Saying it like it is, but if discussion were to take place, let’s just keep it civil and exchange opinions. No need to deride, no need to be rude.

Speaking of opinions, this shall be mine.

WoW is usually held up or down as some sort of universal comparison tool. Not because it is the most accurate depiction of what an mmo should be, but being around for so long, it encompasses an audience and a very varied content we’d be able to relate to.

As raids were highly organized, merits would usually be earned one way or another through personal favors or exceptional gameplay. But let’s stick to the latter for this post’s relevance. This elusive reference of “skill” would often be nurtured and be used for bragging rights for whichever silly reason. But to further augment this skill, there are character/profession builds to optimize whatever you contribute to the party.

Thus an elitist age of gameplay claws its way into the foreground. People’s gear, build and gameplay would be scrutinized and stringent criteria for LFG/LFM would come into play. Personally, this handicap would only be a temporary bane for anyone’s continued interest or access to content if you made a reasonable effort to be prepared instead of being carried by strangers.

I find it unsettling when newbies run off into the sunset and cry about being kicked from parties or walk away from a good run feeling as if they contributed something meaningful when in actual fact, they were carried very snugly by others who made an extra effort to gear or read up on content. But they’re newbies, they’re too ignorant to know better. That’s no sin.

The problem is exacerbated when Guild Wars 2 or related media positions this game to be all about playing the way YOU want it and further cemented by long time carebears. Some of you have probably run dungeons with really nice people whom you thought probably grew marshmallows out of their ears if you ever met them in person. Along the way, their child would cry, or the postman would come, or silly mistakes which you probably overcame on your second run but they still fall victim even though they have over 4000 achievement points (an inaccurate reference but it is something we inevitably draw a conclusion about a player’s “experience” with the game). Then the run takes 3 times longer than it should have. There is a point when a relaxed pace turns into a waste of time.

Now because of this “it’s all about you” campaign, sometimes out of my own folly i overstep the line and give unsolicited advice. My bad. Tried to give advice to the bow/rifle toting warrior who put out 3 different banners + elite banner, that guardian in full soldier gear running staff/scepter while the rest of the team gets massacred, and other colorful varieties of “fail”. But they like their build they said. It’s their right, I don’t pay the bills.

You see, when an elitist culture is set in, your feelings are hurt, but nobody’s time gets wasted. But when someone stubbornly convinced it’s all about him, nevermind playing the better way, other people has to pay for his mistakes. See the contrast?

Now, this post is already very long, and the above situations are heavily simplified. Please do not nitpick at analogies or examples, just get the gist of things and that’s fine.

Point? This game has gone down the gutter coaster too much in the direction of “I play it my way”. It’s true I can choose not to pug, on the otherhand, I’m not alone on this yearning for a little less anonymity of who we invite to the party when we’re pugging.

So really, who’s the selfish one?

The selfish one is the one who thinks that their time is the only important one being wasted.

While I think it is incorrect to draw such broad conclusions from one bad interaction, I do think there is a fine line between “playing how you want” and “being an idiot”. There are plenty of sub-optimal builds out there that will get you through a dungeon, just maybe not as fast as the obsessive min-maxers. I think it is really hard right now to judge what is optimal and what is not since there really are so many different legit ways to play your class…

This is a completely different situation though – people that are unwilling to take simple advice or do some simple research (in Salty’s instance, bringing a stun breaker or two in a dungeon that pretty much demands them). I have met many people “playing how they want” who can take some advice when they are getting constantly downed, especially when it is such a no-brainer. I submit this is not about elites vs. noobs, but more about the attempting to teach the unteachable (waits for the secret handshake…). When you are rebuffed for offering fairly simple advice to someone that is clearly unwilling to do what is necessary to move the party forward (and I’ll give salty the benefit of the doubt that he was being at least nominally polite), that is what the party kick feature is for.

At this point you aren’t being elitist because you have tried to correct the behavior. Again, I don’t think this is indicative of a broader swath of GW2 players, I have pugged with too many people that are happy and willing to try new things if a suggestion is made to improve their experience in a dungeon. Lets back away from the knee jerk reactions we have to the OP and see the broader point here – that we should all be willing to take some friendly advice, and if we don’t understand why it was given ask questions. On the flip side, the advice givers should be ready to explain their advice. If we can keep this up, I think people will be happier and dungeons more productive in general.

one piece of advice is not to start with WTF.

There are issues with dungeons and thoose PRO that want everything OP; experienced, etc…
The game is getting this way, 2 Groups, PROs and Noobs.
- PROs don’t play with Noobs.
- Noobs must figure out by themselfs how to do things.

That in some aspects, the most of the game it’s very friendly.