Guild Wars 2

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

1/375000000. that’s still worse than the mystic forge.

I really hope you arent either of the following.

Gynecologist
Biology Teacher
Sex Education Teacher
Doctor
Nurse

…or have a degree higher than 3rd grade.

Death Reincarnated.3570:

thisolderhead.5127:

Death Reincarnated.3570:

GW2’s Random Number Generator (RNG) is not completely random per say (i.e. pseudorandom), because it is based on code; an algorithm. The only true RNG, in terms of spitting out random values, is when you CPU fails and gives errors. Instead of giving zeros and ones it starts to give other numbers. I forgot what the test was but it involved physically failing the CPU so it generated errors which gave random numbers – this was a true RNG.

Did you just honestly try to say that a pseduorandom number generator as is used by GW2 lacks the randomness required for a GAME?

By the way – most true random number generators are not “broken CPU” based, do you just make kitten up for the internet in your spare time?

LOL I suggest you read into pseudorandom generators and algorithms, specifically look up the term pseudo.

Also, computers are based on logical inputs which give logical outputs depending on the parameters set in the algorithm. Have a read:

- http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question697.htm
- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/13/windows_random_number_gen_flawed/

Oh and here is good old wiki:

“There are two principal methods used to generate random numbers. One measures some physical phenomenon that is expected to be random and then compensates for possible biases in the measurement process. The other uses computational algorithms that can produce long sequences of apparently random results, which are in fact completely determined by a shorter initial value, known as a seed or key. The latter type are often called pseudorandom number generators.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation#.22True.22_random_numbers_vs._pseudorandom_numbers

Siiighhhhh… /FF

Read more carefully.

I am well aware of how computer based pseudorandom generation works (and further to that how it relates to real crypto and not just games), and again will ask you – is it your opinon that pseudorandom is not random enough for use in games like GW2?

As far as a true random generation method – a lot of them use radio static, point a camera at a lava lamp, or grab cloud shadow patterns from satellite images, not a broken CPU.

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

1/375000000. that’s still worse than the mystic forge.

I won the race, now I want my exotic. I deserve it!

Wait… was that sarcasm…?

…What exactly are you getting at…?

…I have a better chance of being born again than getting a precursor? That’s just silly…

…Or are you saying it would be easier to have children…?

…Are they adding a mystic forge recipie that involves egg and spurm to get a precursor and given you the numbers? What is going on? Who are you? What exactly did you mean? When does the circus come to town? And why is bacon so nice?

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

1/375000000. that’s still worse than the mystic forge.

To be technical the problem isn’t the RNG in general, but the specific probability distribution. You search for a specific drop which has a fixed very small probability.
So you get drop after drop and search for that specific event. This is called a geometric distribution and this one has a very long tail because of the small properbility of the event. Or to make it simple it is basiclly the worst way to hand out loot period.

You see there are many kinds of disributions in this game for example the damage generator or the crit generator. You see even if the RNG hates you and you roll never crits and always minimum damage. You still have an effect. You can work towards your goal and slowly take down your enemies’ HP.

In case of the loot you either get the loot or you don’t get the loot. You do not find parts of your loot in every loot drop and may assamble the pieces to the stuff you want. You either get it or you don’t. And since it is the geometric disributed which no memory means every failure brings you back to square one. You can loot 10 years straight and never see the loot drop you want. Or you go there kill the next mob and there it is…

And since you gave this example with the children… Looting in this game is more like a couple trying to get a child. They try for years and consult various doctors but they can not figure out what isn’t right… And after years of trying both are so tired and exausted that they can’t even keep up their relationship and get devorced…
Or you have this party get drunk can’t remember what happen last night, but congratulations you are pregnent.

So yeah RNG can make your life a misarable place… So why should this kind of thing be included in a game, which is there to escape my life for a few hours and immerse myself into a fantasy world?

Real life argumentaion always doesn’t work in games. And yeah I studied statistics.

Darque Intent.1674:

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

1/375000000. that’s still worse than the mystic forge.

I won the race, now I want my exotic. I deserve it!

Wait… was that sarcasm…?

…What exactly are you getting at…?

…I have a better chance of being born again than getting a precursor? That’s just silly…

…Or are you saying it would be easier to have children…?

…Are they adding a mystic forge recipie that involves egg and spurm to get a precursor and given you the numbers? What is going on? Who are you? What exactly did you mean? When does the circus come to town? And why is bacon so nice?

/spam 1+ button

Darque Intent.1674:

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

1/375000000. that’s still worse than the mystic forge.

I won the race, now I want my exotic. I deserve it!

Wait… was that sarcasm…?

…What exactly are you getting at…?

…I have a better chance of being born again than getting a precursor? That’s just silly…

…Or are you saying it would be easier to have children…?

…Are they adding a mystic forge recipie that involves egg and spurm to get a precursor and given you the numbers? What is going on? Who are you? What exactly did you mean? When does the circus come to town? And why is bacon so nice?

^
Yes. What the hell are you all trying to get at, people? So baseless I don’t even…

A system using RNG to determine outcomes resembles pure chaotic chance close enough that it will find its way into games to extend play, not just in hopes of getting prizes, but in a myriad other ways.

RNG-determined loot will prevent people from getting everything they want immediately, which prolongs play. This is a good thing and a bad thing. If everyone could do a predetermined path and get what they wanted . . . and they can’t find the next goal they want to do, they will stop playing. Everything after that falls into “grind” territory for them, since they’re just repeating things for the sake of doing it. They stop playing because the game has nothing left for them. And RNG-determined loot is bad because of what’s being seen here – you could go 7 years without seeing a specific drop (I never got my darn Bone Dragon mini in GW1 even mining two accounts worth of prizes; mine and my brother’s.) or you could see that drop every time for seven years and nothing else. It’s randomized, so anything is theoretically possible.

RNG-determined damage/hits are also good or bad. Just look at your average tabletop game either from a board game like Monopoly or Risk . . . or a role-playing game like Dungeons and Dragons or GURPS. Inevitably, you’re going to find that one guy who loves playing the games, but can’t win or be any “good” because his dice results just stink. The fun, though, usually lies in the other people around the table rather than the game itself.

(Lesson to be learned there? Not while we’re talking about RNG, get to the back of the class and see me after.)

RNG-based success/failure? Heartbreaking because it can be so terribly bad when you have all the things leading up to that final RNG check and fail . . . and now you start all over again. This is represented in how tradeskills worked in MMOs for a long time – put in your components, hit combine and hope you succeeded.

I dunno if I really want RNGs to disappear entirely, because in some cases they make for great stories to tell later. (See any gaming store and the tales of Epic Botches.) I’d like them to be tempered or weighted in some fashion that when you “lose” you are never entirely a loser.

thisolderhead.5127:

I’ll translate for the slow: GW2 RNG = more happy juice in your brain than constant kittens for a month, though still probably less happy juice in the brain than regular exercise and good diet lol.

While I agree with the point you’re trying to make, there’s many more principals at play here than Variable Interval Reward Schedules… I’m sure the devs know that some RNG will make people happier (despite themselves), yet several games have zero outgoing miss % and zero incoming crit % benchmarks, and quite a few games have moved from random gear drops to barter systems for their dungeons including this one, ect. Heck, even going back to pen and paper D&D roots, the system can basically be broken down to a series of rewards (stats or gear based, which amounts to the same thing) that influenced a die roll toward an outcome more favorable to the player.

RNG creates more “happy juice”… yet the entire RPG genre is designed around reducing variance. Why is that? The answer to that question is the answer to the original one presented by the OP.

Can you elaborate on what you are referring to by “designed around reducing varience”?

The rest of your post seems to be a preamble to making that statement however it is vague and seems to lack and support.

thisolderhead.5127:

Can you elaborate on what you are referring to by “designed around reducing varience”?

The rest of your post seems to be a preamble to making that statement however it is vague and seems to lack and support.

That wasn’t a preamble, those were examples. Perhaps I could’ve been clearer. Let me state it in another way: the entirety of the genre is based around increasing your character effectiveness through stats in some form or fashion (“progression”). Quite a few of these stats have a derived %, be it crit chance, hit chance magic find, ect. A large part of “progression” revolves around pushing up the “good” percentages as high as possible and minimizing the “bad” ones. THAT’S what I mean by reducing variance; an astounding number of our character’s actions are determined by random outcome, and increasing our stats so that the odds are more in our favor is a pretty big part of game play. Randomness is beneficial to the game to some degree, yet it’s also presented to the players as something to actively work against.

Does that make more sense? Apologies if not… it’s the end of a long day and I’m closing shop at work. If I’m not getting my point across, I might have to try again after some sleep.

Ah I see – thank you.

In some cases RPGs have the effect you are referring to – where trying to reduce the deficits in a percentage, or increasing modifiers to the point where die/RNG becomes irrelevant (0% miss chance is a very common one), but to many ways of thinking they show an system/algorithm that “fails to scale” and can be broken.

Some devs leave them in the game as a way of gating – “yes you can break the RNG on this, in fact to proceed you MUST”, the most laughable recent example of this being WoW tank block/dodge/parry sum, and its DPS hit values.

Minimizing the effect of RNG in a game is smart play, in good design you cannot completely make the RNG irrelevant however – even via RMT, just reduce its impact.

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

this is nonsense. can you actually prove it could have been any other way?

RMT is fine, but GW2’s Cash Shop feels like it’s “You’ll suffer unless you give us your cash freeloader” when the most successful ones are “If you like us you’ll support us which is win/win”

Hellkaiser.6025:

RMT is fine, but GW2’s Cash Shop feels like it’s “You’ll suffer unless you give us your cash freeloader” when the most successful ones are “If you like us you’ll support us which is win/win”

I’m curious. Since this is very much not my reaction, what is the difference between us? I don’t feel I’m suffering and I only give them cash when I want something — like I do with every other merchant. The only thing that comes to mind is that I doubt I will ever forge a Legendary item.

thisolderhead.5127:

Read more carefully.

I am well aware of how computer based pseudorandom generation works (and further to that how it relates to real crypto and not just games), and again will ask you – is it your opinon that pseudorandom is not random enough for use in games like GW2?

As far as a true random generation method – a lot of them use radio static, point a camera at a lava lamp, or grab cloud shadow patterns from satellite images, not a broken CPU.

I think we have both misinterpreted out posts. My intention was never to imply it is not random enough. What I meant was that the RNG is based on an algorithm, which effectively makes it pseudorandom.

The broken CPU test was the first true RNG based on logical input that gave illogical output; i.e. not a physical experiment! Furthermore, wheneve you have gotten the BSOD (blue screen of death) on your Win OP, it was spitting out RNG-based values because the computers algorithm resulted in an illogical output. Basically, the computer could not compute.

P.S. I’m still trying to find that CPU test example, but I think it had to do with overheating it.

I think we have both misinterpreted out posts. My intention was never to imply it is not random enough. What I meant was that the RNG is based on an algorithm, which effectively makes it pseudorandom.

So as such what is the point of the statement? You are not saying it lacks enough randomness, so what – just wanted to make it clear to everyone you know a basic computer science principal or trying to undermine the concept of “random enough”?

Furthermore, wheneve you have gotten the BSOD (blue screen of death) on your Win OP, it was spitting out RNG-based values because the computers algorithm resulted in an illogical output. Basically, the computer could not compute.

This is so incomplete/innacurate I am having trouble addressing it, I hope you do not work in the ICT industry. You really do just make kitten up for the internet in your spare time, its true.

P.S. I’m still trying to find that CPU test example, but I think it had to do with overheating it.

Go to hardware random number generator on the good old Wiki and begin your research again from scratch.

Why hate RNG??..here’s one reason:

Player X: puts 800 items in the the mystic toilet, and does not receive their precursor.

Player Y: puts 4 items in, and get’s it.

not a good system..at all

RNG works fine for mundane drops. Whites, blues, greens. We will all get so many of these items over time, that any “bad luck” will even out and we will get basically the same total worth of drops. Math will demand it.

However, RNG is an incredibly bad idea to use for anything really rare (read – having a very low drop rate). Why? Because the distribution will stop being overall even and some randomly chosen players will get MUCH better drops than others. cough the ones having a precursor dropped for them…cough

Which is…unfair and defeating the purpose of a computer game, where we generally want to see effort and skill being rewarded, no?

When I see a person having a legendary, my thoughts aren’t “Wow, awesome achievement”, the line popping up is “Wow, a truly lucky person”. Which is…not the desired effect for the supposedly mother of all GW2 rewards, no?

That’s in short why RNG for rare drops is a terrible, terrible idea.

Kimyrielle.3826:

When I see a person having a legendary, my thoughts aren’t “Wow, awesome achievement”, the line popping up is “Wow, a truly lucky person”

lol When I see someone with one, my thought process is more like, “Wow, there’s someone that used gems to buy gold to buy their legendary.”

Either way, skill and gameplay are not requirements for them.

Gibson.4036:

Some people like gambling.

Some people like working toward a goal without being at the mercy of chance.

One is never going to convince the other that their way is best.

That’s why BOTH should have an equal chance at getting what they NEED from the game, not one or the other both should be able to enjoy the game as much as the other.
Sadly at this time the game only appeals to Gamblers..

Kimyrielle.3826:

Kimyrielle.3826:

When I see a person having a legendary, my thoughts aren’t “Wow, awesome achievement”, the line popping up is “Wow, a truly lucky person”

lol When I see someone with one, my thought process is more like, “Wow, there’s someone that used gems to buy gold to buy their legendary.”

Either way, skill and gameplay are not requirements for them.

I think wow there’s another early exploiter of the game that never got caught or used gold farmers to purchase it, i know its wrong but its what i think..

Dante.1508:

Gibson.4036:

Some people like gambling.

Some people like working toward a goal without being at the mercy of chance.

One is never going to convince the other that their way is best.

That’s why BOTH should have an equal chance at getting what they NEED from the game, not one or the other both should be able to enjoy the game as much as the other.
Sadly at this time the game only appeals to Gamblers..

What?

So what you suggest is that there is NO manner in which you can plod through the game and progressively and slowly build towards… whatever – probably a legendary weapon based on the “hard stuff is hard” link between drop rates and getting hard to get stuff.

If only you could just play away and build up some form of currency or another, then you could use that currency to allow for the purchase of the things you want, all the while having a slight chance you could just find an item you want in a drop, or some other item of value you could trade or sell to speed up your own journey…

Anyone got any ideas what we could call a currency like this if it got implemented?

SUGGESTED SOLUTION:

Keep or improve/adjust the current RNG, but in addition, add logic to the code resembling something like this;

When player has exceeded X time and has received 0 ~ 1 rares/exotics, drop them a rare or exotic on next monster kill.

This should alleviate some of the frustration where players feel they are not getting good drops despite great effort.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I beat those 375 million others with SKILL.

Very good idea pure, that i’ve seen quite a few times on these forums before, sadly its usually quickly dismissed..

This would be sort of like a reversed DR though, so obviously Arena net would never even consider it.

thisolderhead.5127:

Dante.1508:

Gibson.4036:

Some people like gambling.

Some people like working toward a goal without being at the mercy of chance.

One is never going to convince the other that their way is best.

That’s why BOTH should have an equal chance at getting what they NEED from the game, not one or the other both should be able to enjoy the game as much as the other.
Sadly at this time the game only appeals to Gamblers..

What?

So what you suggest is that there is NO manner in which you can plod through the game and progressively and slowly build towards… whatever – probably a legendary weapon based on the “hard stuff is hard” link between drop rates and getting hard to get stuff.

If only you could just play away and build up some form of currency or another, then you could use that currency to allow for the purchase of the things you want, all the while having a slight chance you could just find an item you want in a drop, or some other item of value you could trade or sell to speed up your own journey…

Anyone got any ideas what we could call a currency like this if it got implemented?

you theory might be sound, except for the fact that the highly desired items will always be marketed to the top 5 to 10% of earners, who make way more money than people can save through normal pay. Precursors dont cost a fix amount, they cost what the top earners can afford to pay, what they can afford to pay will continue to rise at a geometric rate.
you will never buy a dusk saving 1gold a day, because by the time you get 400 gold, you can bet that it will have gone up. In the 180 days since the game came out, dusk has gone up from what like 20 gold to 600-700? i think last month it was 400-500,

regardless its a bad game design mechanic to reward primarily on long shot odds, even vegas knows its better to have people win and lose constantly than to have them lose all the time.
Id rather play roulette or blackjack for high end items, its far more gratifying.

thisolderhead.5127:

I think we have both misinterpreted out posts. My intention was never to imply it is not random enough. What I meant was that the RNG is based on an algorithm, which effectively makes it pseudorandom.

So as such what is the point of the statement? You are not saying it lacks enough randomness, so what – just wanted to make it clear to everyone you know a basic computer science principal or trying to undermine the concept of “random enough”?

Was my statement incorrect? NO. /FF

thisolderhead.5127:

Furthermore, wheneve you have gotten the BSOD (blue screen of death) on your Win OP, it was spitting out RNG-based values because the computers algorithm resulted in an illogical output. Basically, the computer could not compute.

This is so incomplete/innacurate I am having trouble addressing it, I hope you do not work in the ICT industry. You really do just make kitten up for the internet in your spare time, its true.

In simple terms, computer code requires logical input which then gives logical output. Any illogical output gives a nosequential anwser, thus it can be interpreted as RNG.

/FF x2

thisolderhead.5127:

Go to hardware random number generator on the good old Wiki and begin your research again from scratch.[/quote]

Ahh I may have found something about this – http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-generator/0 – Analog-based CPUs.

Oh and I give you /FF x3 for suggesting wiki.

Have a nice day

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

1/375000000. that’s still worse than the mystic forge.

debatable..

phys.7689:

thisolderhead.5127:

Dante.1508:

Gibson.4036:

Some people like gambling.

Some people like working toward a goal without being at the mercy of chance.

One is never going to convince the other that their way is best.

That’s why BOTH should have an equal chance at getting what they NEED from the game, not one or the other both should be able to enjoy the game as much as the other.
Sadly at this time the game only appeals to Gamblers..

What?

So what you suggest is that there is NO manner in which you can plod through the game and progressively and slowly build towards… whatever – probably a legendary weapon based on the “hard stuff is hard” link between drop rates and getting hard to get stuff.

If only you could just play away and build up some form of currency or another, then you could use that currency to allow for the purchase of the things you want, all the while having a slight chance you could just find an item you want in a drop, or some other item of value you could trade or sell to speed up your own journey…

Anyone got any ideas what we could call a currency like this if it got implemented?

you theory might be sound, except for the fact that the highly desired items will always be marketed to the top 5 to 10% of earners, who make way more money than people can save through normal pay. Precursors dont cost a fix amount, they cost what the top earners can afford to pay, what they can afford to pay will continue to rise at a geometric rate.
you will never buy a dusk saving 1gold a day, because by the time you get 400 gold, you can bet that it will have gone up. In the 180 days since the game came out, dusk has gone up from what like 20 gold to 600-700? i think last month it was 400-500,

regardless its a bad game design mechanic to reward primarily on long shot odds, even vegas knows its better to have people win and lose constantly than to have them lose all the time.
Id rather play roulette or blackjack for high end items, its far more gratifying.

You do realise a “geometric rate” can include negative growth, deflation, etc, its like saying “things happen over a rate of time” – I suggest you were after a term more like “hyperbolic”, “exponential”, or even “steep”.

You’d rather gamble because it is more gratifying than… gambling…

Comes down to the same thing I said before (and we are saying similar things in principal) – if you are trying to gamble on a big win from a tiny chance of occurance you will be dissapointed more often than gambling on progrssive smaller wins.

In the context the smaller wins result in a revenue, which is subject to inflation in the same way as the item you are after. Arguing that economic markets are difficult to break into and subject to change doesn’t really negate anything, especially when you can enter that market without too much pain/RMT investment.

In the simplest sense – do you think all of those thousands of items people are feeding to the MF are self crafted/looted? How many people do you think are laughing to the bank while other refuse to short-circuit their cycles of misery?

Death Reincarnated.3570:

thisolderhead.5127:

I think we have both misinterpreted out posts. My intention was never to imply it is not random enough. What I meant was that the RNG is based on an algorithm, which effectively makes it pseudorandom.

So as such what is the point of the statement? You are not saying it lacks enough randomness, so what – just wanted to make it clear to everyone you know a basic computer science principal or trying to undermine the concept of “random enough”?

Was my statement incorrect? NO. /FF

thisolderhead.5127:

Furthermore, wheneve you have gotten the BSOD (blue screen of death) on your Win OP, it was spitting out RNG-based values because the computers algorithm resulted in an illogical output. Basically, the computer could not compute.

This is so incomplete/innacurate I am having trouble addressing it, I hope you do not work in the ICT industry. You really do just make kitten up for the internet in your spare time, its true.

In simple terms, computer code requires logical input which then gives logical output. Any illogical output gives a nosequential anwser, thus it can be interpreted as RNG.

/FF x2

thisolderhead.5127:

Go to hardware random number generator on the good old Wiki and begin your research again from scratch.

Ahh I may have found something about this – http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-generator/0 – Analog-based CPUs.

Oh and I give you /FF x3 for suggesting wiki.

Have a nice day[/quote]

You really should have gone back to the Wiki and STARTED again – its a completely acceptable starting point for learning something one knows nothing about.

The example you posted uses thermal noise, much like a microscopic heat based version of my radio static example, not thermal faults (or in fact ANY fault – those chips are quite fault resistant).

Again has no revelvance to whether or not GW2 uses a random enough technique for its RNG.

Thanks – my day looks great.

Pure Heart.1456:

SUGGESTED SOLUTION:

Keep or improve/adjust the current RNG, but in addition, add logic to the code resembling something like this;

When player has exceeded X time and has received 0 ~ 1 rares/exotics, drop them a rare or exotic on next monster kill.

This should alleviate some of the frustration where players feel they are not getting good drops despite great effort.

So basically encourage people away from RMT (no revenue), into grinding (which the game wasn’t supposed to be about, and doesn’t have to be about now), encourage botting and mindless farm zergs, and support the assumption that if you do something wrong enough times over the game will reward you for your persistent poor play?

Just throw a three year old in front of the keyboard and drop them off to zerg farm, get them used to success via mediocrity early so we can have the gamers of the future ready to grind.

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

1/375000000. that’s still worse than the mystic forge.

What relevance does real life have to the question of how to make a video game as enjoyable as it can be? In real life soldiers who are killed by an air attack don’t click ‘Respawn now’ and magically come back to life. In real life there aren’t giant super-Vikings who can turn into bears.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Hellkaiser.6025:

RMT is fine, but GW2’s Cash Shop feels like it’s “You’ll suffer unless you give us your cash freeloader” when the most successful ones are “If you like us you’ll support us which is win/win”

I’m curious. Since this is very much not my reaction, what is the difference between us? I don’t feel I’m suffering and I only give them cash when I want something — like I do with every other merchant. The only thing that comes to mind is that I doubt I will ever forge a Legendary item.

Our in-game goals and what drives us are clearly different, neither one of us is wrong or right, I simply see it that if aesthetics were to be the driving force behind your character progression post 80, that making those goals insanely gated by RNG then adding in “boosts” and “random chance boxes” containing “exclusive” loot was a very dubious method, add to this the fact that for a supposedly horizontal and aesthetically driven system there’s a TON of re-used skins and honestly? I don’t know what’s going through the cash shop developers mind…

There on one hand seems to be the potential to match other superior aesthetic RMT services of other games in terms of quality and whatnot, and yet it falls far short of this by simply being what many would describe as either “pointless” or “not worth it”
Don’t get me wrong, quaggan backpack is epic, and hopefully we’ll see more of the likes in future, but well… this was obviously stuff that should have been included earlier, at the end of the day, buying gold with gems was always going to be a bit odd and would affect the game and the minute the game feels unrewarding it was going to shoulder the blame for it.

And honestly I used to talk EXACTLY like many who defend this game do which is kind of scary, because once I hit the brick wall that was “endgame” and seen my options for repeatable content I found the game lacking, either that or quite literally “torturous” without giving myself a little “cash boost” which honestly, is the last thing I after so many years gaming want to spend my money on, it may seem odd to deem something like a unique skin in league of legends as better than a exp boost or flat gold conversion in GW2, but the difference to me is large. One is a permanent way to show I support the game and it’s developers and get a nice aesthetic difference often with unique animations etc (nothing major) and the other is a tiny drop in an ocean to help in terms of grind towards a long term goal that has little to no structure and is one horrible journey to get something that holds no prestige.

I don’t understand why they need to base this game on RNG. It’s just irritating in my opinion. If they want to add excitement then add RNG as an very rare thing, 1/100th of what it is now, don’t base the game on RNG though. Have a goal that is obtainable by x amount of time, and an rare chance of something really unique dropping and make it account bound so you don’t give people an unearned advantage in the market and gem store. I don’t think anything as valuable as a precursor should ever drop from RNG and be sellable, that is just plain foolish… The only thing RNG currently does is drive me away from bothering to play this game for an extended period of time.

BTW if you really don’t understand that this is a game played to escape the “unfairness” of real life, I don’t know what to say to you. Maybe we could make it so you only have 100 days to play your character and at any times your toon can just be just be deleted by the RNG gods….

Because having to count on pure luck is stupid, instead of rewarding me for actually being good. Critical hits are fine since there is a stat that increases it and works well for fights, but RNG for items, and precursos in particular is just evil, some people may never ever get one just because their luck is bad.

Life is based on RNG.

There is a reason I play video games.

Cosine.1786:

Life is based on RNG.

There is a reason I play video games.

Just putting it out there – you may want to read Steven Hawking’s book The Grand Design – apparently it is quite possible that nothing is random at all.

Just sayin’…

Hellkaiser.6025:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Hellkaiser.6025:

RMT is fine, but GW2’s Cash Shop feels like it’s “You’ll suffer unless you give us your cash freeloader” when the most successful ones are “If you like us you’ll support us which is win/win”

I’m curious. Since this is very much not my reaction, what is the difference between us? I don’t feel I’m suffering and I only give them cash when I want something — like I do with every other merchant. The only thing that comes to mind is that I doubt I will ever forge a Legendary item.

Our in-game goals and what drives us are clearly different, neither one of us is wrong or right, I simply see it that if aesthetics were to be the driving force behind your character progression post 80, that making those goals insanely gated by RNG then adding in “boosts” and “random chance boxes” containing “exclusive” loot was a very dubious method, add to this the fact that for a supposedly horizontal and aesthetically driven system there’s a TON of re-used skins and honestly? I don’t know what’s going through the cash shop developers mind…

There on one hand seems to be the potential to match other superior aesthetic RMT services of other games in terms of quality and whatnot, and yet it falls far short of this by simply being what many would describe as either “pointless” or “not worth it”
Don’t get me wrong, quaggan backpack is epic, and hopefully we’ll see more of the likes in future, but well… this was obviously stuff that should have been included earlier, at the end of the day, buying gold with gems was always going to be a bit odd and would affect the game and the minute the game feels unrewarding it was going to shoulder the blame for it.

And honestly I used to talk EXACTLY like many who defend this game do which is kind of scary, because once I hit the brick wall that was “endgame” and seen my options for repeatable content I found the game lacking, either that or quite literally “torturous” without giving myself a little “cash boost” which honestly, is the last thing I after so many years gaming want to spend my money on, it may seem odd to deem something like a unique skin in league of legends as better than a exp boost or flat gold conversion in GW2, but the difference to me is large. One is a permanent way to show I support the game and it’s developers and get a nice aesthetic difference often with unique animations etc (nothing major) and the other is a tiny drop in an ocean to help in terms of grind towards a long term goal that has little to no structure and is one horrible journey to get something that holds no prestige.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts. I agree that: there should be more desirable “skins” in the GW2 store, and that the number of re-used skins in an aesthetics-driven game boggles the mind (all of the temple sets look the same, really?).

On the Legendary: this was meant to be a long-term goal. One might argue that it is one of only two long-term goals GW2 provides. Well, once speed-runners “proved” they could get their dungeon sets in under a month, that is. MMO’s have provided long-term goals for a long time, and have always needed to time-gate them in some fashion since players will find the shortest path to any in-game goal, then be complaining about nothing to do once the novelty of their accomplishment wears off.

The large number of requirements for a Legendary is meant to serve part of that function in GW2, and the Precursor RNG is the rest of it. I feel people on this issue, though I don’t share that goal.

The negative aspect of Precursor RNG is that someone gets a Precursor on their first attempt, someone else never gets it. Both extremes are bad, the early-get means that that player is “done” once he gets the other stuff, the never-get means that player is going to be perpetually frustrated. While I understand ANet’s dilemma with wanting to provide a long-term goal, I think that Mystic Forge RNG was a mistake. I can only hope they will sooner or later do something to make a Precursor a long-term goal that is within reach.

IndigoSundown.5419:

On the Legendary: this was meant to be a long-term goal.

Honestly, I think if acquiring a legendary was truly meant to be a long-term goal, these items would have been account-bound, at least. Being able to buy them off the TP is less of a long-term goal and more of a shopping spree, to my way of thinking. lol

Celtic Lady.3729:

IndigoSundown.5419:

On the Legendary: this was meant to be a long-term goal.

Honestly, I think if acquiring a legendary was truly meant to be a long-term goal, these items would have been account-bound, at least. Being able to buy them off the TP is less of a long-term goal and more of a shopping spree, to my way of thinking. lol

Well, darn it, I’m pretty sure that one of the dev blogs pre-launch talked about Legendaries as long-term goals. Maybe I’m wrong, though the comment about Ascended providing a bridge between the easily-acquired dungeon sets and the hard-to-get Legendary suggests I’m not.

I’m not sure why the decision was made to make them sellable. Maybe because the hardcore in GW1 farmed the best weapon skins and sold them for lots of platinum and the devs wanted some of that action in this game? Maybe because ANet figured people with more disposable income than time would spend it for gold?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Well, darn it, I’m pretty sure that one of the dev blogs pre-launch talked about Legendaries as long-term goals. Maybe I’m wrong, though the comment about Ascended providing a bridge between the easily-acquired dungeon sets and the hard-to-get Legendary suggests I’m not.

No, you’re not wrong. They “said” it was meant to be a long-term goal. I’m just saying that this purpose more or less falls apart when you consider that the path of least resistance is to simply buy any legendaries a player wants. Some people will take the route of trying to acquire one through gameplay, sure, but a lot of people won’t since it’s more work and takes longer to do it that way. I’m sure it was taken into consideration that folks will be likely to buy gems for gold for legendaries, so A-net obviously benefits from this arrangement. I’m just saying it would seem a lot more like a long-term goal intended to keep people playing if everyone actually had to play the game to get them.

Celtic Lady.3729:

No, you’re not wrong. They “said” it was meant to be a long-term goal. I’m just saying that this purpose more or less falls apart when you consider that the path of least resistance is to simply buy any legendaries a player wants. Some people will take the route of trying to acquire one through gameplay, sure, but a lot of people won’t since it’s more work and takes longer to do it that way. I’m sure it was taken into consideration that folks will be likely to buy gems for gold for legendaries, so A-net obviously benefits from this arrangement. I’m just saying it would seem a lot more like a long-term goal intended to keep people playing if everyone actually had to play the game to get them.

That sounds suspiciously like common sense on the internet. I’m shocked, shocked I tell you!

alcopaul.2156:

I see many people hating on RNG.

BUT..

Life is based on RNG. Your conception was RNG. Out of 375 million sperm cells, one only get to fuse with one eggcell and formed you.

1/375000000. that’s still worse than the mystic forge.

Life also has no magic, no respawns, etc. But do let me know the next time you walk outside, gut a mystical creature and have it drop random loot.

thisolderhead.5127:

Pure Heart.1456:

SUGGESTED SOLUTION:

Keep or improve/adjust the current RNG, but in addition, add logic to the code resembling something like this;

When player has exceeded X time and has received 0 ~ 1 rares/exotics, drop them a rare or exotic on next monster kill.

This should alleviate some of the frustration where players feel they are not getting good drops despite great effort.

So basically encourage people away from RMT (no revenue), into grinding (which the game wasn’t supposed to be about, and doesn’t have to be about now), encourage botting and mindless farm zergs, and support the assumption that if you do something wrong enough times over the game will reward you for your persistent poor play?

Just throw a three year old in front of the keyboard and drop them off to zerg farm, get them used to success via mediocrity early so we can have the gamers of the future ready to grind.

No. That’s not right.
Because said “exceeded X time” should be something on the order of X hours or days.

To provide a more firm example;
I’ve played for over 800 hours since launch—with the exception of the exotics that were “hard-code” awarded for map completions, I have only received —3-- (three!) exotic items. It sucks so bad.

So, if there was code that went something like, “OK, he’s played for 30 hours, let’s drop him an exotic”, or “he’s played 2000 hours so drop a precursor”, that would make me feel a hell of a lot better.

In short, bots and farmers wouldn’t benefit.