Thereon Avenrise – former [Noes] Officer – Piken Square (EU)
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!
Why I Avoid Tequatl & The Wurm
Arena.net has decided (and seem dead-set on it) that they will NEVER do instanced raids. They don’t even deign the question with a response anymore. They want an open-world experience, and have decided raid instances take away from that.
Personally, I think they’re off point on that score. The cited reason is they don’t want to fragment the player base, they don’t want to “wall off” content and only make it accessible to a select few (which admittedly raids tend to do… they get extremely selective as to who can be in their raid party).
The problem though is that really… players are kinda doing it ANYWAY. As I understand, TTS forms groups for this content by either forcing an overflow or guesting to a low population server. Large scale groups are pretty much forging their own instances as it is… leaving players who just want to give it an honest shot without worrying about having “x” number of warriors for banners, or a specific makeup of defense groups, or making sure everyone has specific consumables to pop at specific times… and leaving them with no real recourse.
But, at the same time, raid instances have their own problems. It IS a bit of resource waste to have content that only 5% of your playerbase legitimately sees (and depending on the raid instance, 5% is being GENEROUS).
Nor is it quite as simple to have a “Looking for Raid” equivalent in GW2 because WoW gets away with it by having the carrot of superior loot to dangle in front of guilds to attempt the more difficult versions. Arena.net really doesn’t have that carrot (is a chance at the modestly superior Ascended gear really worth it), and while I’m sure some will protest this, let’s be perfectly honest and admit that challenge alone is a TERRIBLE motivator for MMO players.
tl;dr version; Arena.net doesn’t want raid instances for good reason, but the angle they’re taking really doesn’t solve the problem with raid instances, either.
I dont like this open world raid content. It just asks for large guilds to abuse an overflow as their private raid instance and have an easy kill, while the normal people have to deal with all the griefers, afkers and non TS people.
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I dont like this open world raid content. It just asks for large guilds to abuse an overflow as their private raid instance and have an easy kill, while the normal people have to deal with all the griefers, afkers and non TS people.
The problem is raid instances don’t really solve THAT. If you’re not getting into the groups with those large guilds already, you’re certainly not going to get the opportunity with that content gated behind an instance wall.
Honestly, the only reason I’d say to instance it is because that’s effectively what’s already being done, just in a much less convenient manner for everyone already doing it.
They should just allow us to select districts, like in GW1. → Problem mostly solved.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
Raids seem unnecessarily considered to be some sort of taboo word that no one wants to have or discuss, lest they, -gasp- , mention something well implemented in other games!
In any case. Whilst I have no stance, I will say that GW2 is not designed to cater to raids and the reason in because GW2’s loot table is found on the BLTC. One thing you need for raids, is an enormous amount of items. High quality items.
GW2 hasn’t got that. We’ve got one set of ascended skins from wurm, one set of ascended skins from Tequatl. The rest of the cosmetic progression is in the gem store; the vast majority of it. You need a lot more skins if you have a raid. Assume that Tequatl was made for a 25 man raid. This means that Tequatl would need a loot table of at least that many items that are ascended or precursor quality, and the percentages would need to be equal to the potential classes that can use them and the number of items dropping at a time must equate to about.. I don’t know, for 15 people I’d say 4 item drops are pretty fair? x:
GW2 really isn’t designed for them, overall. Partially because of “We don’t want raids” and partially because it ties back to the loot system overall, which in turn ties back to the fact that most of the game is systemised economically.
Of course, that leads to the other issues you addressed, OP. And things like festering lag and all the rest of it.
I ? Karkas.
(edited by Seven Star Stalker.1740)
The replies above have, in a roundabout way, mentioned a key issue here. In making open-world content impossible to succeed without a coordinated group you alienate a large proportion of the playerbase which is the exact thing the devs wanted to alleviate by refusing the idea of raids!
Open world battles are great and I so wish that they worked well in GW2 but, certainly in my opinion, ive come to see now that they have their flaws. Only a handful of servers try and succeed and some guilds even create their own ‘raid instance’ deliberately.
I dont see an issue in allowing people to pick between instanced and open-world. The only real negative is the feeling that people could be on the ‘wrong side of the wall’ but with a solo-queue type system, raid instance caps and the maintenance of the open-world versions of the bosses I cant see how anyone couldnt have access to these bosses.
Quick note on rewards- have the raid version drop tokens to save/spend on unique skins, mats and other bots-and-bobs and cap the raid instance with entrance tokens to avoid farming. Add a scoreboard showing points relating to finishing time, NPCs helped, events completed etc and itll have guilds queuing up in droves.
Thereon Avenrise – former [Noes] Officer – Piken Square (EU)
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!
There is no “wall.” All that communities like TTS ask for is the willingness to listen and coordinate, which any human being is capable of doing. If you’re refusing to do that, the only one walling you out of content is yourself.
I would love to see raids in GW2. I think the reason raiding can work in GW2 is because it wouldn’t require the hellacious gear treadmill that games like WoW have.
I would love to see raids in GW2. I think the reason raiding can work in GW2 is because it wouldn’t require the hellacious gear treadmill that games like WoW have.
The problem here is that the Seven Star Stalker guy you read above? THAT’S the sort of mindset that a raider has.
They really don’t care about the challenge. They’re in it for the loot. Truth is, challenge is a horrible motivator for MMO players. Give them an easier option, and 9 of 10 will take the easier path every single time.
Hell, even WITH the promise of phat purplez, the player base as a whole doesn’t buy in. It’s literally less than 5% of a game’s playerbase that sees the end of that raid content.
I understand WHY Arena.net is reluctant to do it. But dumping raid difficult content in the open world really isn’t a good answer either. It’s going to boil down to either;
A) Instanced raid content, even if its it doesn’t get optimal use.
or
B) Abandon the idea of challenging content.
Because, I’m sorry… the glut of the playerbase simply DOESN’T WANT IT. Period. In any form, and they get furiously kittened off when it’s pushed on them.
Wurm and Teq are the only reason why i keep playing this game , as a TxS commander i will say only this if you want to enjoy this type of event’s join a Guild that does that.It takes Less time , is more fun and overall is an Easy kill without any problems (no grieff ,no trash talk , No Waiting Wars 2, few trolls).And i don’t know why ppl call this ’’Raid’’ it’s not a raid is an Open world boss and this is why Anet will never give us proper servers ,Districts, instanced boss ,becaouse this is one of the Core parts of Guild Wars 2.I don’t want to start talking about the many problems that this System has by now i guess evryone knows all of em …but i will mentions a few ‘’Portal Wars 2’’ -‘’Afk wars 2’’-‘’Of wars 2’‘-’‘Bug wars 2’‘-’‘Taxi Wars 2’’ and so on .
[SC]Nine Inch Nose -205 Precurssors .
I would love to see raids in GW2. I think the reason raiding can work in GW2 is because it wouldn’t require the hellacious gear treadmill that games like WoW have.
The problem here is that the Seven Star Stalker guy you read above? THAT’S the sort of mindset that a raider has.
They really don’t care about the challenge. They’re in it for the loot. Truth is, challenge is a horrible motivator for MMO players. Give them an easier option, and 9 of 10 will take the easier path every single time.
Hell, even WITH the promise of phat purplez, the player base as a whole doesn’t buy in. It’s literally less than 5% of a game’s playerbase that sees the end of that raid content.
I understand WHY Arena.net is reluctant to do it. But dumping raid difficult content in the open world really isn’t a good answer either. It’s going to boil down to either;
A) Instanced raid content, even if its it doesn’t get optimal use.
or
B) Abandon the idea of challenging content.
Because, I’m sorry… the glut of the playerbase simply DOESN’T WANT IT. Period. In any form, and they get furiously kittened off when it’s pushed on them.
The thing that i hate mostly is that some Devs had the courage to say this kind of World Bosse’s are made for Hardcore Guild’s.When in the reality The ‘’Hardcore guild’s’’ don’t have any tools whatsoevaa…to manage this kind of event’s.And i do agree with you either you do something about it or Stop Making this type of content.
[SC]Nine Inch Nose -205 Precurssors .
The biggest problem is that many of these large scale events, require organizing large amounts of players. And the game does not facilitate the sort of organization that it requires. This seems to be a bit of a design contradiction: You require over 60 people to work together in the same instance, but you don’t allow them to choose a district, so that they can organize themselves. So we’re stuck with having to taxi people over to an overflow, just to get around the problem of afk people scaling up the encounter. This shows two big design flaws:
-Event scaling affected by afk players.
-Events requiring amounts of players that make the presence of random unorganized players unwanted.
-Instances not allowing the players to choose a district to gather in.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
Wurm and teq are less inviting than an instanced raid. And they screw small servers like mine, which will never muster the numbers or, arguably, the rudimentary skill and eyesight required. The 10 man seems appropriate. If you believe size actually makes these things epic, make it a 30 man. But the whole server coordination thing, and community crap, is incorrect for these kinds of encounters. In the end, nobody wants to do it except those that have ‘specialized’ in this particular brand of diet raid. And even they carve out their own space in which they may operate with minimal hindrance. Allow us all to do that, and do so with reasonably sized groups.
I happened to stumble across maw last night; there were only 3 others there. I noticed that he is a vastly superior fight with smaller numbers, and that he dies way faster. I never knew his aoe is all over the place (or that he even moved.) Me and those 3 others really did play off each other, and there was a real sense of risk and teamwork; it was magical to see the transformation of an afk fight into a real fight. If wurm and teq were doable with smaller numbers, maybe you’d have a solid fight. But otherwise, they are exercises in a whole lot of organization, for a whole lot of ‘not worth it.’
Just test it on us. We’ve been experimented on with all kinds of content, why not this one? You may just do it better.
(edited by Gsjlink.4673)
The reason why people don’t bother with Teq and Wurm is since you get nothing unless you win.
The 75% reward for tequatl is crap compared to what you get from other world bosses and it takes a lot more effort to reach. If you even manage to reach 75% hp with 4 minutes left, you will propably kill Teq.
Just “showing up” and trying teq is guaranteed to get you nothing at all. This is why only the few who can get a sure kill bother even doing it.
Wurm is even worse, since trying to go for the Silver or Gold chests means that you will likely not even get Bronze, and the loot from all 3 are still huge crap compared to even Shadow Behemoth (hardest boss ever).
If Teq gave similar daily rewards as the other WB’s just for killing it partway, it could be done regularly just like the other world bosses. People could come for the easy to reach regular reward and then try to aim for the harder to reach better rewards. It would cater to both the casuals and the hardcore.
~~snip~~
Tequatl and the Great Wurm events are Elite Content that’s not hidden behind instances. It’s Open World, meaning anyone is free to try for themselves, or join a group to participate. The mere fact that you or your server is unable to do it sucessfully, is because it takes planning beyond just a few friends or a bunch of randoms. TTS has over 5k guildies, spread out across multiple guilds, on all server worlds, congregating on a single Team Speak server. TxS probably is similar. The Euro server, Desolation, is more of an organized mega blob of good players. All have one thing they all have in common – leadership and coordination.
Now, because these events are Elite level, not everyone can complete it. This is working as intended. The mechanics to each event aren’t as simple as, say, the Shadow Behemoth. You need to spread people across large areas, with each area having a different mechanic. The event is set up so that if you don’t understand each mechanic, and aren’t organized, you will fail 100% of the time. This increases the need for you to go out and bring more people together if you want to succeed. It forces you to participate in the social aspect of MMOs. Make friends, join guilds, and organize.
I would love for everyone to know what it’s like to succeed at the very last second. To have that sense of comradery when each person did their part, and is cheered on by everyone else. To be there when the TS explodes in “well done” and “great work everyone”. That’s what Anet designed this content for.
So forgive me when I say that I’m glad there’s content that’s made like this. I’m glad the Wurm events aren’t scaled so low that everyone can do it so easily. Why? Because that would cheapen all our hard work. The leaders put in a lot of time in planning runs, figuring out what went wrong, how to fix it, etc etc. If these events could be done with random people at random times, without planning, they turn into basic Shadow Behemoths, or Shatterers, or Maws, or Golem Mark IIs. So if you’re looking for content that requires a lot less effort to do, you have your picks from the list I just gave. But when you’re ready to try the Elite level content, you’re more than welcome to apply for membership and join us.
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The problem is with how “difficult” the content is not where it is. I can honestly say I haven’t touched tequatl on yaks bend since he was revamped. I can say I haven’t touched the wurm since the first day because they decided to make content that was impossible to do with an average mindless zerg. I think we’ve proven as a community that content like the wurm is a bad direction with world bosses. Making a boss so stupidly difficult to do is just silly.
Outside of an exploit for wurm has it died since it was fixed?
Follow the darkness into the depths, it’s more fun than the light can provide.
I haven’t touched Tequila and the Worm because that type of drink makes me sick. Oh, oh you mean the big risen thingy and the Wurm.
Yeah, that makes me sick too. Mostly because I am almost never around or available when a concerted and coordinated effort is possible or intended. By the time I get to the game, it’s either late enough timewise it’s off peak hours and there’s nobody there . . . since losing doesn’t get you anything and winning isn’t really possible with the few people who trickle in . . . or the best efforts aren’t coordinated as closely because those players aren’t doing it then.
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The problem is with how “difficult” the content is not where it is. I can honestly say I haven’t touched tequatl on yaks bend since he was revamped. I can say I haven’t touched the wurm since the first day because they decided to make content that was impossible to do with an average mindless zerg. I think we’ve proven as a community that content like the wurm is a bad direction with world bosses. Making a boss so stupidly difficult to do is just silly.
Outside of an exploit for wurm has it died since it was fixed?
No. Elite Content was introduced specifically for the Elite minded group of players. That is, Raid type events, but in the Open World. It’s fine if the community as a whole doesn’t like the Wurm or Teq events because it wasn’t made for “everyone”, so to speak. Anyone can access the content, but only the well organized groups will succeed. Again, working as intended.
Now as for Wurm kills, it goes down daily by various groups. Deso does it. TTS just did it a couple of hours ago. TxS does it. I think BG does it. As time goes on, more and more people will band together, learn the mechanics, and succeed. The Wurm gets killed so much, that the Mini Detached Wurn Head isn’t as rare as it once was.
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Ehh, I don’t think that having large numbers of people is a requirement for “difficult content requiring coordination”. I would rather see Tequatl and the GJW be doable for a coordinated, skilled group of 10 – 20 as well as doable by a coordinated, skilled group of 100. Everything you’ve mentioned from the “need to understand all mechanics”, “high level of coordination” to “winning at the last second” can all be accomplished by a smaller coordinated group just as with a map-wide organised zerg.
The leaders and commanders of the big cross-server guilds are to be commended for their work and efforts, of course, but at the end of the day, wouldn’t making their job easier by allowing smaller groups to win in more servers (each one needing their own high level of coordination) be just as satisfying?
Speaking as a member of TTS, the satisfaction gained from successfully beating the events tended to be overshadowed by getting stuck in empty overflows, having to show up 1 – 2 hours beforehand, or getting disconnected and missing out on your rewards. Having these events scale so smaller groups can complete it would solve a lot of these issues.
Ehh, I don’t think that having large numbers of people is a requirement for “difficult content requiring coordination”. I would rather see Tequatl and the GJW be doable for a coordinated, skilled group of 10 – 20 as well as doable by a coordinated, skilled group of 100. Everything you’ve mentioned from the “need to understand all mechanics”, “high level of coordination” to “winning at the last second” can all be accomplished by a smaller coordinated group just as with a map-wide organised zerg.
The leaders and commanders of the big cross-server guilds are to be commended for their work and efforts, of course, but at the end of the day, wouldn’t making their job easier by allowing smaller groups to win in more servers (each one needing their own high level of coordination) be just as satisfying?
Speaking as a member of TTS, the satisfaction gained from successfully beating the events tended to be overshadowed by getting stuck in empty overflows, having to show up 1 – 2 hours beforehand, or getting disconnected and missing out on your rewards. Having these events scale so smaller groups can complete it would solve a lot of these issues.
There’s already content for the smaller groups. The Shadow Behemoth is a good place to start. Medium sized groups can try the Shatterer. Larger groups can go for the Claw of Jormag. And the really large, organized groups can go for Tequatl or the Great Wurm.
As I said, once you scale down “Elite Content”, it losses it’s appeal. Hardcore players don’t have much in terms of Elite/Raid type content in this game. Currently, there’s only Tequatl and the Wurm. That’s it. Though I am hoping the Shatterer gets a Teq-style upgrade soon too. He IS a Dragon Champion after all.
I understand your frustrations because you can’t get into runs. That’s what happens when a map can only hold 150 players, and there’s nearly 300 of us trying to get in. We do try to run multiple Overflows for those days when we have enough people to split into two groups.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
There’s already content for the smaller groups. The Shadow Behemoth is a good place to start. Medium sized groups can try the Shatterer. Larger groups can go for the Claw of Jormag. And the really large, organized groups can go for Tequatl or the Great Wurm.
As I said, once you scale down “Elite Content”, it losses it’s appeal. Hardcore players don’t have much in terms of Elite/Raid type content in this game. Currently, there’s only Tequatl and the Wurm. That’s it. Though I am hoping the Shatterer gets a Teq-style upgrade soon too. He IS a Dragon Champion after all.
I understand your frustrations because you can’t get into runs. That’s what happens when a map can only hold 150 players, and there’s nearly 300 of us trying to get in. We do try to run multiple Overflows for those days when we have enough people to split into two groups.
See, though, I’m not advocating that the Elite Content no longer work for large groups. Under my suggestion, if you brought 150 members of TTS into Bloodtide Coast, the Wurm would be exactly the same as it was now. You’d still get the exact same challenge and difficulty. The only difference is that, on a tiny server that can only muster maybe 10-20 people, the Wurm would be the same level of difficulty, only that his HP and spawns are scaled down so those 10-20 people, if at the top of their game, can still defeat him. The big raid guilds get what they want, and the small servers also don’t get left out.
Oh, and I DO agree that the World Bosses should get a revamp. The ones like the Caledon Wurm and the Maw Shaman just end up as massive HP punching bags when scaled up. They should have more varied fight mechanics so players don’t just stand in a safe(er) spot and mash 1.
The mechanics for the bosses are interesting and appropriately challenging, but the amount of people required for them is a huge barrier to many players and it doesn’t add anything meaningful to the fight. The fights aren’t terribly hard to understand, what’s hard is getting a map where you have 150 people willing to work together, follow directions, and not AFK.
If Anet is going to continue creating content that requires this level of coordination then give us tools and space to organize groups, instead of trying to set up a private raid instance by taxiing people into an empty overflow.
They should just allow us to select districts, like in GW1. -> Problem mostly solved.
It would be the same. You’d still either be in the same district/guild-spawned overflow with the TTS-alike slayer guild (and win), or be in one with all the pugs – or even worse, half empty (and lose).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
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Teq no longer needs massive co-ordination. The servers it is done on know when and where to go. The problem lies with people who zone in, see it is an overflow and leave. If they had stayed the overflow could have done the event. Commander flags are used as a location marker, if you could buy a gemshop item that temporarily marked a spot on your map it would do the exact same thing. The commanders who first organized and got things going where absolutely required. The ones the come now are nice but not an absolute requirement. It is the same with everything. A really neat TED talk by Clifford Stoll summed it up “The first time you do something, it’s science. The second time, it’s engineering. The third time, it’s just being a technician.” Teq is at the technician stage and soon wurm will be there.
See, though, I’m not advocating that the Elite Content no longer work for large groups. Under my suggestion, if you brought 150 members of TTS into Bloodtide Coast, the Wurm would be exactly the same as it was now. You’d still get the exact same challenge and difficulty. The only difference is that, on a tiny server that can only muster maybe 10-20 people, the Wurm would be the same level of difficulty, only that his HP and spawns are scaled down so those 10-20 people, if at the top of their game, can still defeat him. The big raid guilds get what they want, and the small servers also don’t get left out.
Oh, and I DO agree that the World Bosses should get a revamp. The ones like the Caledon Wurm and the Maw Shaman just end up as massive HP punching bags when scaled up. They should have more varied fight mechanics so players don’t just stand in a safe(er) spot and mash 1.
Sorry, but I need to disagree here. Scaling down Elite Content comes with various problems. What do you get when you have a boss whose HP can range between two points (i.e. 10,000 HP and 100,000 HP)? You get bugs with scaling, leading to over easy kills.
Plus, what’s the use of getting together 100+ people for a Raid, when you can do it with 15? Anet made these events with the intent of getting players to group up to overcome the challenge together. By allowing smaller groups to form, you would never have a guild like TTS. Servers would all have their segregated guilds running the Wurm. And then, as I said before, you turn what should have been Elite Content, into another Claw of Jormag.
I don’t mind if the scaling was minor, say a difference around 80%. So instead of having 150 people, you could do it with 120. As of now, the scaling might be a bit more than that.
So Elite Content must remain as it is. The barriers to success have to be artificially high, because it wasn’t meant for “everyone”.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
See, though, I’m not advocating that the Elite Content no longer work for large groups. Under my suggestion, if you brought 150 members of TTS into Bloodtide Coast, the Wurm would be exactly the same as it was now. You’d still get the exact same challenge and difficulty. The only difference is that, on a tiny server that can only muster maybe 10-20 people, the Wurm would be the same level of difficulty, only that his HP and spawns are scaled down so those 10-20 people, if at the top of their game, can still defeat him. The big raid guilds get what they want, and the small servers also don’t get left out.
Oh, and I DO agree that the World Bosses should get a revamp. The ones like the Caledon Wurm and the Maw Shaman just end up as massive HP punching bags when scaled up. They should have more varied fight mechanics so players don’t just stand in a safe(er) spot and mash 1.
Sorry, but I need to disagree here. Scaling down Elite Content comes with various problems. What do you get when you have a boss whose HP can range between two points (i.e. 10,000 HP and 100,000 HP)? You get bugs with scaling, leading to over easy kills.
Plus, what’s the use of getting together 100+ people for a Raid, when you can do it with 15? Anet made these events with the intent of getting players to group up to overcome the challenge together. By allowing smaller groups to form, you would never have a guild like TTS. Servers would all have their segregated guilds running the Wurm. And then, as I said before, you turn what should have been Elite Content, into another Claw of Jormag.
I don’t mind if the scaling was minor, say a difference around 80%. So instead of having 150 people, you could do it with 120. As of now, the scaling might be a bit more than that.
So Elite Content must remain as it is. The barriers to success have to be artificially high, because it wasn’t meant for “everyone”.
I’m sorry but I honestly don’t buy this.
On the one hand people say “OH NO DONT HAVE IT INSTANCED HAVE IT IN THE OPEN WORLD SO PEOPLE WONT BE CUT OFF FROM IT AND CAN ALL ENJOY IT AND BLAH BLAH BLAH” yeah okay. I get that. But then we have people like you (And I’m not saying you’re wrong or really disagreeing with you) who say the opposite; it’s supposed to be for the elite. This doesn’t make sense, and you end up with issues like AFKers, Leachers, the clueless, the careless and all kinds of people in the mix anyway.
It feels like this content has an identity crisis. On the one hand you have it designed for the elite so that only the hardcores can do it.. And you have it in the open world so.. Everyone can do it, and that non-hardcores are welcome to engage in it despite the content not actually designed for that demographic?
It’s sort of the case in other things too, I’ve noticed. But I’m focussed on this specifically.
I ? Karkas.
People (e.g. TTS) are already creating their own instances via overflow. So why not just make our lives easier and allow us to spawn an instance? That’s all that’s really needed. The apparently dirty word “raid” need never even be mentioned.
I’m sorry but I honestly don’t buy this.
On the one hand people say “OH NO DONT HAVE IT INSTANCED HAVE IT IN THE OPEN WORLD SO PEOPLE WONT BE CUT OFF FROM IT AND CAN ALL ENJOY IT AND BLAH BLAH BLAH” yeah okay. I get that. But then we have people like you (And I’m not saying you’re wrong or really disagreeing with you) who say the opposite; it’s supposed to be for the elite. This doesn’t make sense, and you end up with issues like AFKers, Leachers, the clueless, the careless and all kinds of people in the mix anyway.
It feels like this content has an identity crisis. On the one hand you have it designed for the elite so that only the hardcores can do it.. And you have it in the open world so.. Everyone can do it, and that non-hardcores are welcome to engage in it despite the content not actually designed for that demographic?
It’s sort of the case in other things too, I’ve noticed. But I’m focussed on this specifically.
Wurm and Teq events must stay in the Open World, where it can be accessed by everyone. While I would benefit from having private instances, I’m against that idea in general. Private instances allow a select few players to effectively deny other players the chance to get in. Gear checks, guild checks, etc etc. Heck, if they don’t like you, you aren’t getting in. But with Open World content, no single player can tell you that you can’t participate. Sure we’d get mad if someone AFKs, thus taking up valuable player slots on the map, but it’s not like we have the power to kick them out of the map.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Have to agree with Smooth Penguin on this one. Not every bit of content will be aimed at every player. Having a variety of things to do for a variety of play styles is the spice of life for an MMO.
Not everyone enjoys crafting
Not everyone enjoys dungeons
Not everyone enjoys personal story
Not everyone enjoys jumping puzzles
Not everyone enjoys exploration
and not everyone enjoys large scale organized team play.
If there is a particular type of content that doesn’t appeal to you…..do something else. Removing the large scale and organizational aspects of the encounters through down scaling would make the effort put into playing the encounter at the upper end of the scaling/organizational spectrum superfluous and irrelevant.
Sorry, but I need to disagree here. Scaling down Elite Content comes with various problems. What do you get when you have a boss whose HP can range between two points (i.e. 10,000 HP and 100,000 HP)? You get bugs with scaling, leading to over easy kills.
Plus, what’s the use of getting together 100+ people for a Raid, when you can do it with 15? Anet made these events with the intent of getting players to group up to overcome the challenge together. By allowing smaller groups to form, you would never have a guild like TTS. Servers would all have their segregated guilds running the Wurm. And then, as I said before, you turn what should have been Elite Content, into another Claw of Jormag.
I don’t mind if the scaling was minor, say a difference around 80%. So instead of having 150 people, you could do it with 120. As of now, the scaling might be a bit more than that.
So Elite Content must remain as it is. The barriers to success have to be artificially high, because it wasn’t meant for “everyone”.
But Tequatl already scales. If you’ve ever gone to one of those empty attempts and shot around a little you should have noticed how the fingers die really easily and the bonewall doesn’t have much health. I can solo those bonewalls in maybe 10 seconds on my staff ele.
It’d be interesting to see if some 20 experienced people went on an empty server and had a low people attempt. Just ignore the turrets and kill the wall like when teq bugs these days.
I’m willing to bet that more than 90% of the GW2 population aren’t playing these events.
So, why not make them instanced instead? Those 90%+ aren’t doing Teq and Wurm now, so why should they care? At least make them more convenient to others.
“I don’t like raids and instances, and I wouldn’t be doing them, and I don’t want them to be added for those who enjoy them.”
So, why not make them instanced instead? Those 90%+ aren’t doing Teq and Wurm now, so why should they care? At least make them more convenient to others.
Because the current set up makes it easier for an individual to try the content out.
“I don’t like raids and instances, and I wouldn’t be doing them, and I don’t want them to be added for those who enjoy them.”
More like, “I am not interested in large instanced raids and don’t want existing open world content taken away from open world PvE.”
There have been many here that have made assuptions of the type of player who wants raid content and the nature of boss fights in this game but I hope I can now point out that not everyone thinks the way you think they do.
1) I enjoy content that isnt 100% win. I love the thought that I can fail but there also has to be the thought that its possible to win. Tequatl and the Wurm are amazing boss encounters for well-coordinated groups, I understand this. But the truth of the matter is I cannot even participate in these fights without guesting to another server/overflow. The argument ‘Elite content for Elite groups’ is surely AGAINST what ANET are trying to do with open-world boss content. The purpose is so that everyone can participate but the way things stand that isnt the case.
2) To an extent I dont care about loot. There must obviously be a reward for your time but that doesnt have to take the form of high monetry value items. Introduce a scoreboard and im sure many would play for the competition alone. Throw in some unique accountbound skins via a token system and voila!
3) Private instances are already in use by Teq killing guilds. This change would essentially be a beefed-up QoL patch surely? (slight exageration!)
4) Regardless of what server you attempt the boss on there is the major issue of queuing. This is my BIGGEST issue. Surely I should be free to actually play the game while waiting instead of running into a wall, afk for over an hour? Instances would sort this.
5) I accept that not all content is for everyone. I love epic world boss fights and yet here I am making a thread about why I cant participate in them.
6) There wouldnt have to be a choice between open world and instanced. Have them both, give unique rewards for both.
7) Scaling would have a minimum and maximum number, as in every other MMO.
8) Saying that instanced content is hiding the boss fight behind a wall is not true. The open world bosses remain, and the instanced raid versions could have a solo queue for those that want to fill up the gaps. If there is a hundred slots to an instance what are the chances all 100 will be taken? There will always be the odd gap here or there.
Thereon Avenrise – former [Noes] Officer – Piken Square (EU)
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!
(edited by Thereon.3495)
It would be the same. You’d still either be in the same district/guild-spawned overflow with the TTS-alike slayer guild (and win), or be in one with all the pugs – or even worse, half empty (and lose).
The difference would be that we would no longer have to deal with afk people so much. Allowing us to choose a district, would make it easier to gather like-minded people in the same overflow, without the zone reaching it’s cap because there are a couple of people afk at the waypoint, or doing their world completion. It would solve the issue of having to taxi people over.
My server (Aurora Glade) organizes a Tequatl kill every week. Sure, it takes some preparation to get everyone online at the same time, and on Team Speak. But it’s ultimately very fulfilling to beat Tequatl at the last second.
If your server does not kill Tequatl on a regular basis… then why are you not starting something up yourself? All it takes is one person to say: “On this day, at this time, and be on TS”.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
What I see as the major problem of both Tequatl and the Tri-Wurm can be summed up in one sentence:
A very small number of people can make the event unwinnable for all the rest.
At Tequatl, players standing AFK in the wrong place will scale up the enemy count to such an extent that the turrets cannot be defended anymore. Additionally, there is no way to stop a player from occupying a turret if they don’t know how to effectively use it.
With the Wurms, players who don’t know what to do can also sink everyone’s chances at success. If too many people die inside Amber Wurm’s stomach, not enough people with harpoons come out. A single misuse of the harpoon (once outside) may be enough to prevent Amber Wurm’s shield from dropping. If too many people are just running around at Crimson Wurm, they will lure large mobs of enemies onto the collection stations. And at Cobalt Wurm, uncoordinated powder keg runners will just fruitlessly drop kegs that get removed before they add up to 20, wasting everyone’s time. At all three, those who don’t know (or don’t care) when to stop attacking to co-ordinate killing time can sabotage the event for everyone, as well as those who prefer attacking champions over unhatched wurm eggs.
And there is simply no way of correcting such untactical or counterproductive behaviour, except to explain it in chat (in the middle of a 15-minute timed event) and hope they even read it.
The only reason I don’t do Teq or Wurm is that I don’t find waiting over an hour, cause that is what you have to do to get a do shot at success, engaging game design. I don’t have a lot of time to play per day and waiting over half of that time for some big event is definitely not how I want to spend my evenings.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
Adding raids would mean less people will participate in these events. Only people in raiding guilds will be completing these events, everyone else will ignore it because they can’t get a group of 40+ people together. Many MMO players have raided for years, and like me, are pretty much over that entire type of gameplay. The “abuse” of the overflow system is the current way for large guilds to try and mimic a raid scenario. There is nothing wrong with that.
If it was strictly raid instances, then those same large raid guilds will just go to their own raid instance. It will change absolutely nothing.
It sounds like you need to a) join a boss killing guild, because those do exist or b) continue not participating in those events or c) participate, have a good time, win or lose.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
Throwing things into instances brings about its own set of headaches. While I have nothing against raids necessarily, I can understand and agree with ANet’s approach to not wanting to segregate their player base too much.
The more broken up we are, the harder it becomes to find people to play with in the content you feel like playing, something we already have an issue with. Additionally, the harder that content is and the more people it requires means the longer it takes to gather and organize a group to do it. Yes, we have this issue with the open world bosses like Teq, but the perk to an open world ‘raid’ is that people wandering in can jump in and help after you start. You don’t necessarily have to have 100 people when he pops (although its nice), where as with a traditional instance you do.
I do recall quite clearly the days of standing around ‘glf x to go’ing. Even with party tools in WoW and GW1 it still took time to gather the necessary team composition. True, we don’t have a specific healer or tank in GW2, but do you think that’s really going to shorten the standing around ‘glf’ wait? I highly doubt it, considering we already see this issue with just the 5 man dungeons…. ‘glf zerker only’ ‘glf 80s only’ ‘glf war and guard only’ etc etc.
I am fine with Teq and Wurm being open world. If Anvil Rock can scrounge up enough randoms to do it successfully (and we have), then it should be completely possible for more populous servers to do it too. Heck, it should be easier because you have a higher population density.
I do agree that incorporating the ability to choose your overflow would be helpful, similar to GW1 districting. Perhaps having the ability to put something in the lfg tool that broadcasts server-wide (‘muster aide’ in a sense) might help as well, but again would need the ability to choose an overflow, this way overflows could ‘call for help’ as well.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Honestly TTS, Attuned and TxS are ALREADY using an instance system. It’s called the taxi and overflow system. The only difference between it and some sort of district/guild overflow system is that it would be a lot less chunky and unwieldy to use. The overflow system in place wasn’t meant to be used by large guilds to create their own instance, it was meant to allow friends to easily play in the same instance on crowded servers.
So really nothing would change if an instance system was ever introduced. The large guilds would still be in their own instance, blackgate and desolation would be in their main and every other server trying to beat it would still be on their main so nothing would change.
In general the wurm and teq are great additions to the endgame of guild wars 2. Both are extremely well designed fun fights with multiple roles and skills sets to use. However the absolute headache around them (rewards being terrible, the overflow system, dealing with afks, THE STUPID LONG TIMER BETWEEN TRYS) is dragging them down and putting a lot of people off.
I enjoyed earning my wurm kill with TTS but the constant stream of issues mitigated that enjoyment especially when we were muscling through getting into phase 2 consistently.
Retired Leader of TTS
I avoid it because the chance of a reward is so small it’s not worth my time or effort.
Azreell – Mesmer
Loyalty To None
Loyalty To None
So, why not make them instanced instead? Those 90%+ aren’t doing Teq and Wurm now, so why should they care? At least make them more convenient to others.
Because the current set up makes it easier for an individual to try the content out.
“I don’t like raids and instances, and I wouldn’t be doing them, and I don’t want them to be added for those who enjoy them.”
More like, “I am not interested in large instanced raids and don’t want existing open world content taken away from open world PvE.”
And exactly who would stop you trying instances?
There are a lot of technical issues and considerations that would have to go into allowing people to spawn their own instances or districts. Look no further than dungeons that have been having instance issues since launch to see the back end limitations and weird issues people keep discovering. These aren’t things you just “fix” in a few iterations work.
Also, I am not sure about TxS, but one of the things TTS does specifically is help other servers finish events so everyone can have a chance to complete content. We don’t constantly force overflows for every event and shuttle in our own to have a private TTS party. Tequatl runs are done on main servers, and as many overflows spawned from that server as we have leaders for. Marionette was done likewise. Wurm starts getting together on a main server and moves to an overflow to shed afkers. But when we move, everyone is told at the same time and players from that server and TTS members all have the same shot at getting into the overflow before it fills for the run.
Honestly, one of my favorite things about leading events like Teq or Marionette is the reaction when its over from people that just beat it for the first time or have never been involved in something that big and organized. I was part of a group that taught a specific lowpop server how to beat Marionette a week after it premiered. And after two or three runs, that server was beating it on their own consistently with their own commanders. They even had people posting on the forums and reddit, bragging about their victories after almost completely giving up on the event as a server. Stuff like that is awesome and I think is great for the entire community and can be beneficial to all players if they choose to participate, or take charge.
If you lock all of that behind instances, you lose that level of involvement with large guilds and their server, or guild networked communities and all servers.
I look forward to when Anet finally strikes that balance of being tough, but achievable by random people working together (Marionette), and requiring grueling organization and efficiency (Wurm). My ideal world boss would have Marionettes base difficulty for standard rewards with difficult optional objects that can completed for additional rewards. This would let servers scale up to the individual level of success they think they are capable of, without failing the event wholesame and intimidating most players.
*I am a TTS guild leader, but do not speak for the organization as a whole. The views and opinions expressed in this post are mine alone :p
The Kismet
Dragonbrand
Dragonbrand
So, why not make them instanced instead? Those 90%+ aren’t doing Teq and Wurm now, so why should they care? At least make them more convenient to others.
Because the current set up makes it easier for an individual to try the content out.
“I don’t like raids and instances, and I wouldn’t be doing them, and I don’t want them to be added for those who enjoy them.”
More like, “I am not interested in large instanced raids and don’t want existing open world content taken away from open world PvE.”
And exactly who would stop you trying instances?
Honest question here,
have you ever plaid an MMO with raiding ?
Because way-pointing into the zone where an open world event is going to happen soon(ish) in order to try out the big event with a bunch of other people already there for it is very different than trying to get a raid group to accept you.
One thing I should make clear because I think its been lost in these replies (thanks for the discussion by the way) is that my main problem is the queuing up and waiting. The difficulty is great, the boss fights are incredible and the overall feeling of being part of something epic is what drives me. But I am not prepared to guest to another server and stay on a single map for 1-2hours waiting for a boss to spawn. My time is more valuable to me than that. In addition to that many low pop servers cannot participate. My idea of ‘raid style’ instanced content is an idea to alleviate that problem. If you have any alternate ideas on how to remove the queuing and enable more people to take part then feel free to suggest them!
A few replies to the various statements made about the idea of raids:
1) Adding raids would mean less people will participate in these (open world) events and more segregation. – Not if the rewards were different for each and a system was put into place to help randoms join up. This isnt WoW… players rely on skill and not class in these fights. Groups will allow randoms in to fill the spots left free by afk’ers (have a ready-up button) and no-showers.
2) The “abuse” of the overflow system is the current way for large guilds to try and mimic a raid scenario. – I fail to see the hram in implimenting a raid-style dungeon then. You could add mechanics to make the experience more fun such as leaderboards.
3) Why not join a boss killing guild? – This doesnt solve the queuing issue plus why should I have to? Why cant my guild join up with another guild and tackle these bosses together?
4) You can have a good time, win or lose. – I fail to see how hacking at a bone wall for 20 minutes is fun. These bosses are impossible without a set number of coordinated players.
5) The main perk of open world bosses is that anyone can jump in and help. – True to an extent but if there is still space on the map after the boss is up and running the chances are the fight will be a fail. Plus im not saying remove open world bosses…
Thereon Avenrise – former [Noes] Officer – Piken Square (EU)
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!
(edited by Thereon.3495)