Why I Think GW2 Will Not Stand the Test of Time

Why I Think GW2 Will Not Stand the Test of Time

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Posted by: Justice.5709

Justice.5709

Note: I wrote this for extra credit in a philosophy course. I posted it here because I thought some might find it interesting. I’m not trying to flame. That is all.

Friedrich Nietzsche believed in what he called the “Will to Power.” Building upon other philosophers such as Arthur Schopenhauer who believed in a more basic “will to live,” Nietzsche believed that human beings are driven by ambition, achievement, and exerting one’s own power of others. While other philosophers argued that human being are furthered by a will to survive, Nietzsche took it further by saying man does not want to simply survive, but to dominate. To this end, man subjected the beasts under him, developed animal husbandry, and once the beasts of the field were conquered, he turned on his fellow man, the strong enslaving the weak, thus developing separate classes, where the rich and powerful preside over the meek and oppressed.

Believe it or not, such ideas are commonplace in today’s modern MMO scene. As opposed to single player games, where the enjoyment and action of the game comes from within, MMOs force the player to compete against other gamers, and by doing so they bring that animal drive to succeed and become better than others into the game. By making the game’s focus competition between players, MMOs appeal to general human nature, and the people that play these games derive enjoyment not from simple fun or action, but more from achievement and forward progress, just as we do in life.

For example, anyone who has ever mined minerals or gathered crafting supplies in any MMO knows of the commonly used expression “The Grind.” This term generally refers to running around, sometimes for hours at a time, searching for mineral veins/plants/whatever to consume. WOW was not the first game to utilize this mechanic but they did it right. Mineral veins were scarce and when a player found them and used them, they disappeared from the map. Running around was never very fun; the point of this being not the “playing of the game,” but instead the grabbing of the mineral vein and making it yours. When it occurred to you that there was a finite number of these resources on the map, then it also occurred to you that any minerals you harvested could not be harvested by others, and that effectively meant that you became more powerful and others didn’t.

This system was changed in Guild Wars 2 to allow mineral veins to be used by anyone who happened across them, not disappearing but simply waiting in everyone’s own instance of the game, for the user to come across and harvest. Whether players are conscious of this or not, this cheapens the experience. Instead of satisfying that urge to become better than others, there is instead a feeling like it is a chore, or something that one has to do to simply stay at par with other players. There is something far too easy about it, and things that are easy bear little value. While it may provide more snappy “fun” by allowing everyone the experience of mining, there is no achievement or reward to outsmarting or outmaneuvering your fellow players. There is no satisfaction of a challenge.

Items are treated the same way in Guild Wars 2. Upon hitting 80, you can acquire a set of gear that is optimal for one specc, and all upgrades from then on will simply be changes that will make the gear optimal for another specc instead of “better” overall. Someone on these boards said it best by describing it as moving “sideways” instead of “upward.” This was Guild Wars intent, to provide a fair basis for game play but by doing this, they are trying to deny human nature. For people to continue playing a game, they need to believe that by doing so, they will become better than other players. WOW did this correctly as well. Once you maxed character level in the original game, you had to run dungeons with other people, and bosses dropped one item that only one person received. Some people thought this unfair but guess what? LIFE ISN’T FAIR. Expecting a game to be fair and balanced is expecting an experience that will run counter to your own human nature to excel. Items derive value from their scarcity. This made getting a legendary weapon from old school Molten Core or Black Wing Lair practically orgasmic. You could take pride in being one of the handful of players on your server to own that weapon.

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Posted by: Justice.5709

Justice.5709

Some people say pride shouldn’t exist in a video game because it isn’t real. But whether people like to admit it, video game worlds have become real. Our experiences in these abstract realities can have profound effects back in the real world. Who hasn’t read stories about the effects of cyber-bullying ending with suicide among teenagers? Who hasn’t been emotionally moved by displays of bravery or selflessness in a game cut-scene or movie? Who hasn’t spent all night raiding a dungeon only to finally get that unique item, walking around the next day with their chin held a little higher? A virtual experience translates directly through to the real world. If a player can’t seem to get better in the game world, then he can’t feel better about it in the real world. Frustration in; frustration out. While lack of forward progress after “maxing” your character is okay in most games, because most games are meant to be beaten. In an MMO however, that survives only because its users continue to play it for an extended period of time, you must allow those players to derive satisfaction through forward progress so that they can derive enjoyment from it once the game play becomes stale.

Nietzsche states:

“What is good? – All that enhances the feeling of power, the Will to Power, and the power itself in man. What is bad? – All that proceeds from weakness. What is happiness? – The feeling that power is increasing – that resistance has been overcome” (130).

Once you hit 80 in this game, your power stops increasing. To me, this also stopped my happiness. You can’t hope to stay ahead of the curve, when there is a giant brick wall in the way. Guild Wars’ idea to utilize fairness and equality in gaming is admirable, and this game is fun, but I don’t see it lasting. I think most people will simply stop playing once they realize that there isn’t any further to go. Add that to the fact that end-game PvE content is twitchy, random, and NOT skill-based (as they claim) but instead reliant on exploitation, and you have a great game that ends too quickly. The PvP will last a while, because the skill level required to excel is quite high, and there will be die-hard supporters of skill-based PvP just as in other competitive games like SC2 or Quake. But people looking for PvE will need to find it elsewhere.

This flaw, combined with an interesting but useless crafting system, a broken economy, and an incredibly beautiful, yet repetitive world, make Guild Wars2 a fantastically fun, however short-lived world. I will still play this from time to time, but it isn’t the successor to WoW like we all wanted it to be. It simply will not last.

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Posted by: marianitten.1247

marianitten.1247

- “God Is Death”
Nietzsche

- “Nietzsche Is Death”
God

Sorry with more time i will read this text xD

For Those About to Zerg (We Salute You)

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

Gaming is serious business, I get it. Also, I like the way mining is in this game.

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Posted by: Curuniel.4830

Curuniel.4830

If Nietzsche is right about humanity, I think we all have bigger things to worry about than whether or not our favourite MMOs succeed or fail :P

Since you posted this, though…

Some people thought this unfair but guess what? LIFE ISN’T FAIR. Expecting a game to be fair and balanced is expecting an experience that will run counter to your own human nature to excel.

Interestingly, in my own academic work on MMOs, I have been arguing that one of the reasons people find them satisfying (and I’m not writing about GW2, but another game on a similar model to WoW) is that they present a world that seems more fair. In MMOs, if you put in x amount of work and overcome y obstacles, you know you can get z reward. In real life, you can do everything right and work hard and get very little. If this happened in a game, people would ragequit. Especially in a subscription game, where they feel entitled to make demands of the developers because they’re paying for a service.

Just my two cents Nice work getting to write about video games!

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Posted by: Peter.8047

Peter.8047

This game works the same way GW1 did in terms of “gaining power” at max level. GW1 was successful and lasted until GW2.

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Posted by: Cancer.9065

Cancer.9065

but it isn’t the successor to WoW

and lets thank God, Nietzche, [insert whomever you want here] for that.

Cancer is also a Zodiac sign.

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Posted by: Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806

This wonderful piece of literature brought to you by BUTTJUSTICE!

No but seriously, the end game is PvP based. Have you ever heard of Sisyphus? He was cursed to forever roll a boulder up a hill in Tartarus. Right before he reached the top, the stone would roll back down the hill and he’d start again. I’m tired of MMO’s treating me like that. I just want to PvP in peace without constantly grinding to stay on the upper eschelon of the power curve. That’s what GW2 offers and I love ANet for that.

It just sounds like the endgame offered to you by GW2 just isn’t your thing. I hear MoP has end game raiding.

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Posted by: Eochaidh.4106

Eochaidh.4106

First, ego boosts are still in the game even without WoW silliness. Legendaries are one of those.

Second, not everyone plays with the motives you described.

Third, GW itself is already enough evidence to disprove treadmill doomsayers.

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Posted by: nerva.7940

nerva.7940

so youre trying to apply something you learned in your undergrad philosophy class? great. but if you ever study eastern philosophy and phenomenology, you’ll realize how much of a moron Nietzche was. he had a very narrow understanding of the world, and knew nothing about how nature works. in fact, he was against nature.

Ikiro – 80 Ranger
Umie – 80 Guardian
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgLbWtvtzdU0Ho0zto6VnTQ

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Posted by: Revenant.2691

Revenant.2691

You’re basing your entire argument on a single aphorism that, in the context of the work, pertains much more to morality than reward-seeking behavior. If you want to make a stronger argument on that subject, look into psychological studies involving operant conditioning. Psychologists refer to MMOs as “skinner boxes” for a reason, after all.

Also, I’d recommend against describing anything as “orgasmic” in any kind of paper unless you’re referring to the actual state of orgasm or specifically discussing pleasure responses in the nervous system. It’s not the most professional term for what you’re describing.

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Posted by: UKNightWatch.5742

UKNightWatch.5742

Before this thread deteriorates or gets locked / erased;

‘You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.’

Now seeing as ‘All truly great thoughts are conceived by walking.’, here I am walking away from this thread!

Have fun! :P

No rig in my sig? Only posted if needed!

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Posted by: Koven Acris.5236

Koven Acris.5236

Wait wait.. Im encouraged to read a philosophy article by someone named ‘Buttjustice’ who has condemned Guild Wars 2 by quoting Friedrich Nietzsche?

…I, I dont know where to begin…

(edited by Koven Acris.5236)

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Posted by: Kimbald.2697

Kimbald.2697

Zarathoestra liked to dance, and I like to think he enjoyed enjoying himself and grew in that regard.

So you might have missed one incentive after reaching 80, and that is not gear or showable rewards, but the eperience of growth as you get better at your character. Especially with the large emphasis of pvp as ‘end game’ in this game, that should be a factor to take into consideration.

By which I don’t mean it will keep all the players here, since there isn’t even a real ranking system to show for so far.
But it is a factor for many, I hope…

Fun read, I even hope your teacher knows zit about gaming, it would make him interested all the more.

Wiggely, wobbely and other wombaty wabbity creatures…

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Posted by: Kimbald.2697

Kimbald.2697

Wait wait.. Im encouraged to read a philosophy article by someone named ‘Buttjustice’ who has condemned Guild Wars 2 by quoting Friedrich Nietzsche?

…I, I dont know where to begin…

sixth paragraph is a recognisable one, but in the end I do recommend the beginning.

Wiggely, wobbely and other wombaty wabbity creatures…

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Posted by: Corian.4068

Corian.4068

oh dear god, busting out the nietzsche.

if you don’t like the game then good lord fine, but in what way is this not melodramatic?

Hit level eighty
Priorities, what to do?
Spend hours with dye

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Posted by: springelf.9236

springelf.9236

I agree with some of the things the op said. Not sure I see GW2 as the promise land as some suggest. Its great for some, kind getting to be meh for others.

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Posted by: nastyjman.8207

nastyjman.8207

When I play GW2… I’m reminded by this video from Alan Watts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4

First Team to reach 250 has 87% chance to win (Updated 7/30/2014) : http://bit.ly/1lWH6T8

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

so youre trying to apply something you learned in your undergrad philosophy class? great. but if you ever study eastern philosophy and phenomenology, you’ll realize how much of a moron Nietzche was. he had a very narrow understanding of the world, and knew nothing about how nature works. in fact, he was against nature.

Disagreeing with someone doesn’t make them a moron. You also have to consider the context in which he lived too. His ideas were his own, and being an Atheist in his day wasn’t like today when it’s socially acceptable. Everyone wants to be number one, but by nature only one can be number one. Due to inherent limitations and gifts respectively, in addition to hard work, people are sorted into their place by both nature and their own merits. If you lack talent then you cannot be the best in a chosen field, as that belongs to someone who is not only extraordinarily gifted, but also works hard to exceed those who are equally gifted.

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Posted by: Tallenn.9218

Tallenn.9218

Nietzsche was wrong. Not everyone has a desire to dominate.

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Posted by: marianitten.1247

marianitten.1247

Sorry but all that Friedrich Nietzsche crap is out of place. This is a game. Now, i stop reading after :

“For people to continue playing a game, they need to believe that by doing so, they will become better than other players. WOW did this correctly as well.”

That is WoW, this is GW2. If you want the vertical progression model, go to WoW. Here, we have the Horizontal progression model. You will be better than me if in a balanced combat you beat me. Not because you have better gear.

For Those About to Zerg (We Salute You)

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Posted by: nerva.7940

nerva.7940

so youre trying to apply something you learned in your undergrad philosophy class? great. but if you ever study eastern philosophy and phenomenology, you’ll realize how much of a moron Nietzche was. he had a very narrow understanding of the world, and knew nothing about how nature works. in fact, he was against nature.

Disagreeing with someone doesn’t make them a moron. You also have to consider the context in which he lived too. His ideas were his own, and being an Atheist in his day wasn’t like today when it’s socially acceptable. Everyone wants to be number one, but by nature only one can be number one. Due to inherent limitations and gifts respectively, in addition to hard work, people are sorted into their place by both nature and their own merits. If you lack talent then you cannot be the best in a chosen field, as that belongs to someone who is not only extraordinarily gifted, but also works hard to exceed those who are equally gifted.

Nietzche was the nihilistic emo cry baby of the philosophy circle. it’s not that i disagree with what he philosophized. he simply interpreted the world through the wrong lens.

Ikiro – 80 Ranger
Umie – 80 Guardian
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgLbWtvtzdU0Ho0zto6VnTQ

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

You do realize that having the best stats is not the only reason people play MMOs right? Prestige is also a big factor, and it’s why I’m 90% of the way to my legendary weapon even though it provides no statistical advantage.

You would do well to take an economics course and learn about economic utility. Then you might understand why some people prefer WoW’s power progression and others prefer GW2’s aesthetic progression.

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Posted by: knightblaster.8027

knightblaster.8027

I have been arguing that one of the reasons people find them satisfying (and I’m not writing about GW2, but another game on a similar model to WoW) is that they present a world that seems more fair. In MMOs, if you put in x amount of work and overcome y obstacles, you know you can get z reward. In real life, you can do everything right and work hard and get very little.

Right. This is my impression as well. It’s still a “Wille zur Macht” type thing, but what makes it more attractive for some is that it has a guaranteed payoff. In real life, you can work 100 hours a week and never become the CEO. In an MMO you can work 100 hours a week and, in a typical Skinner Box MMO, you will become the Raid God. MMOs don’t take skill, or luck, they just take time investment — life isn’t like that at all. In life, skill/talent is a differentiator, upbringing/environment is a differentiator, luck is a significant differentiator, as well as effort. In an MMO, none of that is true. For a “complex raid mechanic”, you simply look at videos on YouTube, learn the script for the mechanics involved, and follow them — if you do this enough, and invest enough time in it, you are guaranteed to become the King. (Note this refers to PvE, because that is the focus of the OP as well). It’s that guaranteed return on invested time that makes the game attractive particularly to those who are IRL time rich but otherwise poor relative to others IRL in some way or other.

MMOs designed along those lines create an aristocracy of the time wealthy over the time poor — which is satisfying for people who, in real life, are time wealthy but poor in other ways as compared to others who in real life are time poor but wealthy in other ways. It’s fundamentally an escape from the unfairness of real life that makes these games attractive for the Skinner Box conditioned masses.

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Posted by: korgoth.5924

korgoth.5924

dooooom threads.. the bane of mmos

No man is an island, but a bunch of dead bodies make a pretty good raft.

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Posted by: tolunart.2095

tolunart.2095

Advancement requires risk. Another WoW clone = little risk, because you already know there is a multimillion-player market out there for WoW-like games. Creating an anti-WoW game is a risk because there is a largely unknown and untapped market for a game that does not follow the patterns of WoW.

Guild Wars was such a game, in that it did not require a sub. Guild Wars 2 is a continuation of this risk, bolstered by the success of the first game. What you are seeing these last two weeks or so is the group who expect MMO = grind/farm realizing that the game is not structured the way they expect and getting frustrated. Because Arenanet will not throw away their game and make it the game these players expect, they will either adapt to the new game or move on.

I believe there are enough people who will adapt, or who realize that they didn’t really like grinding anyway, to keep the game fresh and active. You are not supposed to farm the mats for a Legendary Weapon is six weeks or less, and the game is being adjusted to support the design. If you have a Legendary after 3-6 months, you’ll be ready for an expansion which will include new Legendary recipies so you can craft a dagger to go along with your Legendary Sword.

This process is not a bad thing, and there are a dozen MMOs that are not WoW that say you don’t need WoW’s numbers to be successful. And about a dozen people who shout louder than the rest that you do.

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Posted by: Lunesta.3742

Lunesta.3742

“This wonderful piece of literature brought to you by BUTTJUSTICE!”

Quote of the year.

As a Thomas More man myself, I prefer we all just sit around thanking the central authority for granting us the opportunity to kitten in a toilet. Just kidding, More was an idiot.

Librium – Elementalist – IoJ

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Posted by: Justice.5709

Justice.5709

so youre trying to apply something you learned in your undergrad philosophy class? great. but if you ever study eastern philosophy and phenomenology, you’ll realize how much of a moron Nietzche was. he had a very narrow understanding of the world, and knew nothing about how nature works. in fact, he was against nature.

Disagreeing with someone doesn’t make them a moron. You also have to consider the context in which he lived too. His ideas were his own, and being an Atheist in his day wasn’t like today when it’s socially acceptable. Everyone wants to be number one, but by nature only one can be number one. Due to inherent limitations and gifts respectively, in addition to hard work, people are sorted into their place by both nature and their own merits. If you lack talent then you cannot be the best in a chosen field, as that belongs to someone who is not only extraordinarily gifted, but also works hard to exceed those who are equally gifted.

Nietzche was the nihilistic emo cry baby of the philosophy circle. it’s not that i disagree with what he philosophized. he simply interpreted the world through the wrong lens.

Nietzche was completely against nihilism. He was very explicit in stating so. Maybe you disagree with what he philosophized because you have no idea what it is.

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Posted by: tolunart.2095

tolunart.2095

so youre trying to apply something you learned in your undergrad philosophy class? great. but if you ever study eastern philosophy and phenomenology, you’ll realize how much of a moron Nietzche was. he had a very narrow understanding of the world, and knew nothing about how nature works. in fact, he was against nature.

It’s been a while since I read the Tao te Ching, but it begins something like:

The way that can be described is not the true Way.
I do not understand everything there is to know about the Way.
There is a tiny part of the Way that I do understand.
I call it Tao.

Anyone who claims to know everything about human nature is lying, or wrong.

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Posted by: Kimbald.2697

Kimbald.2697

“This wonderful piece of literature brought to you by BUTTJUSTICE!”

Quote of the year.

As a Thomas More man myself, I prefer we all just sit around thanking the central authority for granting us the opportunity to kitten in a toilet. Just kidding, More was an idiot.

but one could argue he had the original draft for an imginary game world.
Only after another came up with the idea of virtual worlds with a cave and some shadows.

Ancient game designers, gotta love them.

Wiggely, wobbely and other wombaty wabbity creatures…

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Posted by: Brannoncyll.1978

Brannoncyll.1978

If Nietzsche is right about humanity, I think we all have bigger things to worry about than whether or not our favourite MMOs succeed or fail :P

QFT. The OP’s recounting of Nietzsche’s philosophy suggests a very cynical view of humanity. Although I agree that many people do take great satisfaction in the basic animal drive to show that they are better than someone else, many like myself find such behaviour rather pathetic. I prefer working with others to achieve goals, and while I do get satisfaction from working towards a more powerful character, I do it for personal enjoyment rather than for showing off to others. For the same reason I laugh at people who waste their money on trendy fashion items or showy cars.

Edit: I should add that I did enjoy reading the paper and I hope the OP gets a good grade!

(edited by Brannoncyll.1978)

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Posted by: Zetoe.1327

Zetoe.1327

I would have to agree. I noticed this early on. It didn’t seem like a big deal at the time, but grew into one.

Its the same way with “Individualized loot” There’s no sense of “I got this good loot, its useful for me and not him” It doesn’t matter in the slightest. There are also those of us who enjoy helping others by giving gear and resources, because we understand that things like that can be hard to obtain. Since its not, there’s no reason to bond or help one another.

In the end this is a single player game that has an "mmo’ package.

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Posted by: notebene.3190

notebene.3190

As opposed to single player games, where the enjoyment and action of the game comes from within, MMOs force the player to compete against other gamers, and by doing so they bring that animal drive to succeed and become better than others into the game. By making the game’s focus competition between players, MMOs appeal to general human nature, and the people that play these games derive enjoyment not from simple fun or action, but more from achievement and forward progress, just as we do in life.

I hope you do well on your paper.

I think this is flawed right out of the gate, and the first sentence of this paragraph gives us a glimpse as to what is wrong.

In my mind, there is ‘no’ difference to me in enjoying a single player game vs a multi-player game, or by extension, and MMO. Or I should say, there isn’t anything inherently different to me about whether I get enjoyment out of playing one or the other “based on the merits and mechanics of the game itself, regardless of type”.

Some non-MMO multiplayer games I don’t enjoy very much at all. I often play them and end up getting a lot of enjoyment from the experience because I’m playing with real life friends. It is that part of the experience which makes it fun overall. If left with nothing but the game, I wouldn’t enjoy myself.

Often times I’ll play an MMO, and derive a great amount of enjoyment from the game on it’s own merits, regardless of whether anyone else is there, though they will usually add more enjoyment when I’m given the opportunity to interact with them. I enjoy the game for what it is.

You dive off into this whole “competition” and “animal drive” thing, and I don’t see or feel that at all when I play the game.

The game itself is a tool. What we take away from the game seems far more closely related to what we project onto the medium. If we look at the game as competition, then that is what it will be. If we view it as a new world to explore, with crafting and story and non-push-go-faster style play, then that is what we’ll likely get out of it.

And then the rest of it follows the same line, but it all just seems like a lot of projecting at that point.

I see people bowl all sorts of ways. Some folks are there with their little kids having a party with bumpers up bouncing house balls every which way you can, and having a blast. Some folks are there with ‘way’ too much gear, curving the ball all sorts of which way, and getting all riled up when they don’t break 230. There isn’t anything inherently about bowling which that brings out competition and animal instincts. It’s just a game. What you get out of it isn’t any more or less than what you bring to it.

Luke: I don’t believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.

But I do hope you get a good grade.

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Posted by: Rise.9702

Rise.9702

@Korgoth
Or doom of GW2 forums. I never seen this many negative feedback in a gaming forum in my life lol.

You sir are a Scholar and Gentlekitten.

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Posted by: knightblaster.8027

knightblaster.8027

Since we seem to be discussing philosophy, the following reminder from Monty Python about not taking philosophy too seriously seems to be in order:

Immanuel Kant was a real pizz-ant who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel.
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.
There’s nothing Nietzsche couldn’t teach ‘ya ’bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates, himself, was permanently pizzed.
John Stewart Mill, of his own free will, after half a pint of shanty was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away, half a crate of whiskey every day!
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
And Hobbes was fond of his Dram.
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
“I drink, therefore I am.”
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he’s pizzed.

— Philosophers’ Drinking Song, by the famous philosopher Montius Pythonius.

(edited by knightblaster.8027)

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Posted by: Eochaidh.4106

Eochaidh.4106

You should probably explain what is GW2 because your essay assumes the reader knows all about it, probably not the case for whoever will evaluate that. Person might as well not know what “WoW” means. You also added a lot of personal statements there, but that’s probably expected of an undergrad work. :p

Either way, fitting Nietzche into this doesn’t make it any different. You are making a lot of assumptions there. You assume that everyone follows the same power-seeking model, which is a quite the generalization and there is zero actual consensus on it. Then you assume that human nature accurately reflects people’s actions in an online game (which is structured in a very different way than in reality). If we were really to take this last step, I’d actually be more inclined to believe that reciprocity, instead of dominance, is the central aspect of human interaction, as so many people get out of their way to help others in this game.

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Posted by: UKNightWatch.5742

UKNightWatch.5742

Since we seem to be discussing philosophy, the following reminder from Monty Python about not taking philosophy too seriously seems to be in order:

Immanuel Kant was a real kitten ant who was very rarely stable.
Heideggar, Heideggar was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.
And Whittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.
There’s nothing Nieizsche couldn’t teach ‘ya ’bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates, himself, was permanently kitten
John Stewart Mill, of his own free will, after half a pint of shanty was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away, half a crate of whiskey every day!
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
And Hobbes was fond of his Dram.
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
“I drink, therefore I am.”
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he’s kitten

— Philosopher’s Drinking Song, by the famous philosopher Montius Pythonius.

So, I walk away but then out of curiousity come back for a look – just a tiny peek you understand – I’m really not interested – honest gov!

AAAAARRRRRRGGGH!

I just got ‘The liberty bell march’ outta my head!

Now I’m not gonna be able to sleep ’cause I got that other little ditty in my poor ’lil head.

No rig in my sig? Only posted if needed!

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Posted by: Vzur.7123

Vzur.7123

ButtJustice o_0

Some people say pride shouldn’t exist in a video game because it isn’t real. But whether people like to admit it, video game worlds have become real.

It’s not that it’s become real. It’s that fiction has always allowed us to experience some of our baser impulses, in safe sugar-coated ways that don’t hurt anyone. We get some of feelings of domination or reward or ambition (or love or loss or whatever else) without the unpleasant realities of really experiencing such things.

Opinions differ on how base such fictions should be, and how and sugar-coated they should be, of course.

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

I’m going to cut a little snippet out of the middle.

This system was changed in Guild Wars 2 to allow mineral veins to be used by anyone who happened across them, not disappearing but simply waiting in everyone’s own instance of the game, for the user to come across and harvest. Whether players are conscious of this or not, this cheapens the experience.

This belongs in the kittens litterbox. You’re trying to pass off as fact an opinion, and nothing more. I, for one, like the shared nodes. What that means is if I’m on my way to mine and I see someone that could use a hand, even if they’re going for the same node, I can and do jump in and lend a hand. With the direct competition element removed from PvE it’s becoming second nature to help out rather than hinder. I help you, we both work towards the node, we both are rewarded for teamwork and more often than not will stay loosely grouped as we gather more nodes and tear down foes in the way.

Whether you’re concious of this or not, it enhances at least my experience and I assume that of the person now working with me towards common goals.

#TeamJadeQuarry

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Posted by: Panacea.4927

Panacea.4927

You seem to have forgotten an important aspect of “sidewards” gear progression… you can only get gear for a different spec, true… but what if you have now 3-4 different sets for different specs?

You have more power, you feel stronger as others since you can adept your character better to different situations. Just change your build and gear and you get new strengths and weaknesses, adapting yourself to other situations and performing with that better at those.

Different expensive/hard to get armor skins are also some swag to show off, even when its just pure visual.

You also get the feeling of beeing “better” in pve if you just die less. If you do a instance and die 20 times, while your team dies 20 times too, you will feel equal. You will feel supreme if you die only 5 times while your team dies 20 times and with that you again have satisfied your need to be “better”.

I also didnt noticed the randomness you describe in PvE. Every mob and boss have their pattern and often also their tiny move which shows you that they are about to do something devastating, but the time to react to them is pretty short.

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Posted by: Lutinz.6915

Lutinz.6915

I cant entirely say the OP is neccesarily wrong with his assessment though, like most philosophers and indeed most people, I feel Nietzsche spoke with too much certainly of his perception of the world.

It is a current mental state though to seek constant growth and control. Infact modern society encourages it. It however is more like feeding an addiction than providing happiness since there isnt ever a place where you have enough.

In how this applies to GW2, this saying is telling for me:

‘The journey is more important than the destination’

I got to chatting with another GW2 player the other day who had 100% World Complition. He had done many of the explorable dungeons. Im only at 52% completion and quite a lore buff. He was asking me about stuff that didnt add up to him in the lore.

The thing that struck me is that even though he had visited more locations than me he knew vastly less about the locations he had visited. His exploration of the world had been a checklist he needed to complete and so every location he had visited had just been in passing. He had not stopped to smell the roses.

The is, I think, a problem alot of people have with MMOs. They are so focused on the growth or progression that they miss most of game world. Almost every time people talk about what to do they speel of a checklist of accomplishments. However this really doesnt tell us much of their experiance of the game world.

That is probably the issue. Its a way of looking at things and playing things thats the issue. Many people are literally playing the MMO like its a job rather than a holiday. Its a shame because the hunger of the progression model cant lead to anything except endless grinding cause its a hunger that can never be satisfied and that no game designer in the world will ever be able to keep up with.

Unfortunately I dont know if this is a mentality Arenanet can do much about. GW2 was built to be enjoyed and savored as more than being rushed. I love the amount of little details through out the world and the lore. That however might not satisfy the hungry. Some people just need more boxes to tick to feel satisfied.

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Posted by: lorazcyk.8927

lorazcyk.8927

You got extra credit for that?
What’s this world coming to…

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Posted by: ComeAndSee.1356

ComeAndSee.1356

The problem with this game is the fact that there is carrot on the stick.

1. Exotic gear is too easy to get leading to people getting all the items they want in a month.

2. Too much time was spent on leveling content and not the endgame. You have 80 levels and it was much more fun leveling than hitting endgame.

3. WvW resetting every week and not giving your realm rewards for winning.

4. Structured PvP gear being separate from your main character. I mean, really?

5. Structured PvP ranks is the only true grind in this game.

6. Running dungeons gets repetitive. They aren’t challenging and don’t require a huge effort.


So you go from lvling 1 to 80 going through events, doing dungeons, and basically constantly working your gear to keep yourself occupied.

You hit 80, hit the dungeons for a week and get a full exotic set. All you have after that is WvW, more dungeons, or sPvP.

I’m sorry, but this game didn’t live up to what they were claiming. They didn’t WoW clone, but they left the endgame so high and dry. I’ve never played a MMO where you can effectively beat the starting content and be completely geared out in a full month.

Leveling was the best part of this game, but the endgame is sorely lacking. Even the WvW guilds on Henge of Denravi are packing up and leaving now.

Sha Nari – 80 Guardian (http://bit.ly/12RNvtK)
Lorella Windrunner – 80 Thief
Shayera Nightfall – 80 Mesmer

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Posted by: Corvindi.5734

Corvindi.5734

If there were no WvW in this game I would have quit already. WvW is pvp, so I’ll concede that I fit into your will to power theme. The thing is, though, I don’t want to beat someone because I have more gold or better gear. I want to beat someone because I was better at mashing buttons and moving my mouse.

Okay, when you look at it that way, I guess it’s still a rather silly ‘will to power’, but I like it better than ‘haha, I spent more time grinding than you did, or worse, opened my wallet and bought gold so I could kill your pixels’!

“…we don’t expect you to be forced into dungeons at endgame.”

~ArenaNet

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Posted by: EntropicTempest.2759

EntropicTempest.2759

@Korgoth
Or doom of GW2 forums. I never seen this many negative feedback in a gaming forum in my life lol.

You obviously didn’t participate on the Diablo 3 forums..

Also;

What are you talking about man? You still get that feeling of power by rolling people, except when you do, its because you were a better player not because your gear carried you through it.

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Posted by: Azoth.5827

Azoth.5827

I like the part where the OP used caps lock in an academic essay.

Seriously though, this is utterly shallow, poorly reasoned, and relies repeatedly on blanket assumptions about what I and other players want out of a game (or life, for that matter) without substantial thought to back it up.

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Posted by: elocke.7132

elocke.7132

I don’t agree with all the Nietzsche crap, but I do agree with your conclusion. The game is fantastic but short lived. LONGEVITY is the issue here. I think it’s also the real issue underlying the whole genre right now. Not since FFXI in 2003 have I seen an MMORPG actually have content that could take years to complete. All of them before it did. It seems that little nugget of awesomeness has been forgotten in the wake of casual play, fancy graphics and action-y combat.

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Posted by: capnflummox.3082

capnflummox.3082

“No but seriously, the end game is PvP based.”

oh i sure as hell hope not…

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Posted by: VendettaDFA.9368

VendettaDFA.9368

Not everyone believes dominating your fellow man equates to success. How many nations have fallen due to an uprising of the dominated against the so-called successful?
Nietzsche’s time has not stood the test of time.

As far as WoW goes, it does the things it’s meant to do very well. However, since the WoTLK any subsequent expansion has been pretty much more of the same thing with extra cheese. Cheese being roller-coaster Goblins and Kung-Fu Pandas.

Not everyone in the MMO world thinks their success needs to be measured by a bunch of gear-checking, elitist snobs in order to join endgame raids to get better gear. The catch being, in order to get accepted into those raids you pretty much have to already have the top-end gear that you are trying to join the raid to get. If anything better happens to drop you can bet it will end up in the loot master hands and not yours.

In Guild Wars 2 everyone can craft-up, gear-up, and level-up without having to step on the face of someone else who just wants to enjoy their game as well. I consider this version of the MMO to be much better suited for how I choose to play than WoW ever was during the 2 years I played it.

Quote whoever you wish but as your thread states this is your opinion of how you feel an MMO is meant to be played. In my opinion you have plenty of choices already available to you. Unfortunately GW1 wasn’t like that and and GW2 is not going to be like that either. In MY opinion your opinion is outdated and time has passed it by.

(edited by VendettaDFA.9368)

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Posted by: Milennin.4825

Milennin.4825

Guild Wars 1 was even less progression based, and has been doing fine for 7 years. I don’t see why Guild Wars 2 would do worse with more progression.
I kind of skimmed the post, but what I’m getting from it is that MMO’s cater to those who are very competitive, and that’s not true. In your example of getting resources, when others do not, thus making me more powerful… no, just no. I don’t care if others can get those same resources for themselves. A lot of people don’t care about being more powerful or getting more stuff than others. That’s what this game caters to more, while traditional MMO’s attract the more competitive kind of people.

Just who the hell do you think I am!?