Guild Wars 2

Hey all.

From the moment raids were first announced for GW2, I could already see problems on the horizon. Just the way they tried to sell the idea of Raids gave me the impression that things were not going to work out well. When ANet starts to mention things like how it will be the most difficult content in the game and, in their own words, cause players to shed tears (e.g. "And if you fail to fill these roles? You’re going to have a bad time. But don’t worry, as we’re leaving you a repair anvil at the entrance. You know—to collect your tears on. ") then you just know things are going to be a mess.

Here’s a breakdown on why I don’t like Raids as they are.

1: The creation of ‘Challenging Content’ should not be taken to unreasonable extremes.

Now, don’t get me wrong, it’s not challenging content in itself that I do not like. In fact, I love challenging content. But what I don’t like is when the completion of challenging content is not dependent on my own skills, but rather the skills of 9 other players who I have to hope are incredibly competent. The room for error in Raids is so minuscule that having even one mediocre player on your team can mean the difference between success and failure, and this is a sad situation because usually I like helping new or inexperienced players in dungeons or fractals, but raids do not allow for this friendly community behavior because of how extreme the difficulty curve is and how toxic it can cause your raid group to become.

This, unfortunately, not only makes finding good raid groups incredibly frustrating, but it also alienates a large portion of the player-base from what is meant to be the primary new, permanent form of end game content. I don’t see how you can quite literally alienate a vast majority of your playerbase by nerfing other end game modes like dungeons, only to replace it with a ludicrously challenging game mode that pretty much gives any player that is even remotely casual or less skilled a big middle finger.

2: Functionality for forming and maintaining Raid groups is incredibly lackluster

To put it plainly, putting a group together for raids is a very painful process. Despite ANet’s attempts to sell it as a no wait, jump in and go game mode that results in instant fun, the reality is far from that idealistic vision. Because Raid groups rely on the squad UI, using the looking for group tool to form parties becomes near impossible. What’s worse is that if anyone leaves your party post entering the raid, getting a new one to join becomes an even more difficult affair thanks to the lack of functionality with squads.

This needs to be streamlined more to make finding groups for Raids less frustrating.

3: Gating exclusive rewards behind challenging content further alienates your playerbase

This is another worry I have with Raids, and that is that exclusive rewards like legendary armor will be unattainable by a vast majority of players because of the difficulty of Raids and the inconvenience of forming Raid groups.

Unlike legendary weapons, which can be acquired regardless of what game modes you play, legendary armor will seemingly be a Raid only affair. Not only do I feel this is unfair for players who might not enjoy Raids, but I also believe it hurts the “play how you want” policy that ANet has been punting for years and yet have somehow completely ignored as they’ve further developed the game.

4: My suggestions for solutions

- Firstly, I think Raids should have a scale-able difficulty curve, like fractals, with higher difficulty levels offering more rewards. Not only does this give less experienced players an opportunity to learn the mechanics in a lower difficulty scale, thus preparing them adequately for the higher levels, but it also allows players looking for a true challenge to still find it. This will also allow lower-skill players to earn the same rewards as high-end players, albiet at a slower rate, which helps mitigate the impact of alienating your playerbase.

- Raids should be split up into five and ten player archetypes. Not everyone is part of a large guild that can more easily put together a group for raids. I think new raids should be added that specifically cater to and are balanced around five player groups to allow for more leeway for those facing limitations, whether they are related to time or manpower.

- Squad functionality should be improved to make forming groups for Raids easier and more streamlined.

- At the moment, Raids force certain builds or group compositions, which once again go against the “play how you want” policy. I think ANet should allow for a bit more leeway (perhaps by removing time limitations on bosses) to allow for less than ideal group compositions to still succeed, even if at a slower rate.

5: Closing notes

As things are right now, I really don’t have the time or energy to spend on raids. It can take up to an hour or more just to find a ideal group and I’d much rather spend that precious time having fun in other game modes.

If it comes to a point where Raids are the primary end game content and the main focal point for updates going forward, while other end game content is abandoned or ignored, then I can honestly see myself quitting this game unless some improvements are made to Raid functionality overall. I didn’t buy GW2 for Raids or for forced play styles, or the promotion of toxic group behavior through elitist mindsets. If I wanted all that I would have bought another MMO like WoW.

Your final diss of WOW shows your ignorance .. in WOW raids are open to pretty much everyone because of the fact Blizzard have implemented several difficulties. As a result of LFR raid participation rocketed from a mere 15% back in ‘vanilla’ (with only 5% every actually clearing raid content) to over 40%.

The elitist jerks get their phat lewt in the top tier while the majority of players are able if they wish to actually get to play the lower tiers and maybe then learn and want to play higher tier.

All Anet have done is to create a single tier aimed at the elitist jerks who are now on the forums here sneering at the ‘scrubs’ as several of them call the rest of the playerbase.

Kraggy.4169:

Your final diss of WOW shows your ignorance .. in WOW raids are open to pretty much everyone because of the fact Blizzard have implemented several difficulties. As a result of LFR raid participation rocketed from a mere 15% back in ‘vanilla’ (with only 5% every actually clearing raid content) to over 40%.

The elitist jerks get their phat lewt in the top tier while the majority of players are able if they wish to actually get to play the lower tiers and maybe then learn and want to play higher tier.

All Anet have done is to create a single tier aimed at the elitist jerks who are now on the forums here sneering at the ‘scrubs’ as several of them call the rest of the playerbase.

I’m not dissing WoW actually. Perhaps I shouldn’t have included the elitist mindset part in my closing notes (because the elitist part was not specifically aimed at WoW players, nor was it meant to be a reflection on what I thought of WoW plaeyrs), but my overall point is that GW2 and WoW cater to different kinds of players. The selling point for me in GW2 was the fact that it was different from other MMO’s like WoW and offered a variable amount of freedom when it came to build choices, party compositions or game modes.

To now try make it more like WoW or to remove what made GW2 unique simply puts it in the same category and while that might be great for people who already liked games like WoW, it’s not great for people like me who were looking for something different.

To give another example, it’s kinda like how Dead Space went from being a survival horror in the first game, to more of a generic third person shooter by the third game. It’s fine for people who like third person shooters, but it ends up alienating the original playerbase, who loved the game more for it’s “survival horror” aspect.

Don’t like ‘em? Then don’t do ‘em. Simples.
I’ve never been in a dungeon, a fractal or a raid, and my time in HoT was very short-lived but I’m enjoying the rest of the game just fine.
You don’t need those rewards to enjoy yourself. You do, um, play for enjoyment, don’t you?

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

3: Gating exclusive rewards behind challenging content further alienates your playerbase

This is another worry I have with Raids, and that is that exclusive rewards like legendary armor will be unattainable by a vast majority of players because of the difficulty of Raids and the inconvenience of forming Raid groups.

Unlike legendary weapons, which can be acquired regardless of what game modes you play, legendary armor will seemingly be a Raid only affair. Not only do I feel this is unfair for players who might not enjoy Raids, but I also believe it hurts the “play how you want” policy that ANet has been punting for years and yet have somehow completely ignored as they’ve further developed the game.

Before I respond, I’d like to point out that I haven’t beaten the Raids yet.

Now then, gating exclusive content behind challenging content is perfectly fine. Legendary armor was meant to be hard to get. Meaning, a vast majority of the player population will never get it, and that’s working as intended. That’s not to speak negative on the skill levels of an individual, but rather how hard the challenge ahead is.

As for your little dig at “play how you want”, Raids don’t prevent you from playing the game. You can play Raids any way you like. Doesn’t mean you’ll be successful. If you want the exclusive rewards at the end of a successful Raid, you need to earn it.

Finally, don’t count out Anet just yet. I’m sure there’ll be more challenging solo content in the future. Liadri was a good challenge when the Queen’s Gauntlet is around. I’m hopeful there’ll be more like that.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

3: Gating exclusive rewards behind challenging content further alienates your playerbase

This is another worry I have with Raids, and that is that exclusive rewards like legendary armor will be unattainable by a vast majority of players because of the difficulty of Raids and the inconvenience of forming Raid groups.

Unlike legendary weapons, which can be acquired regardless of what game modes you play, legendary armor will seemingly be a Raid only affair. Not only do I feel this is unfair for players who might not enjoy Raids, but I also believe it hurts the “play how you want” policy that ANet has been punting for years and yet have somehow completely ignored as they’ve further developed the game.

Before I respond, I’d like to point out that I haven’t beaten the Raids yet.

Now then, gating exclusive content behind challenging content is perfectly fine. Legendary armor was meant to be hard to get. Meaning, a vast majority of the player population will never get it, and that’s working as intended. That’s not to speak negative on the skill levels of an individual, but rather how hard the challenge ahead is.

As for your little dig at “play how you want”, Raids don’t prevent you from playing the game. You can play Raids any way you like. Doesn’t mean you’ll be successful. If you want the exclusive rewards at the end of a successful Raid, you need to earn it.

Finally, don’t count out Anet just yet. I’m sure there’ll be more challenging solo content in the future. Liadri was a good challenge when the Queen’s Gauntlet is around. I’m hopeful there’ll be more like that.

^ this.
I need to have fifteen characters in my post.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

3: Gating exclusive rewards behind challenging content further alienates your playerbase

This is another worry I have with Raids, and that is that exclusive rewards like legendary armor will be unattainable by a vast majority of players because of the difficulty of Raids and the inconvenience of forming Raid groups.

Unlike legendary weapons, which can be acquired regardless of what game modes you play, legendary armor will seemingly be a Raid only affair. Not only do I feel this is unfair for players who might not enjoy Raids, but I also believe it hurts the “play how you want” policy that ANet has been punting for years and yet have somehow completely ignored as they’ve further developed the game.

Before I respond, I’d like to point out that I haven’t beaten the Raids yet.

Now then, gating exclusive content behind challenging content is perfectly fine. Legendary armor was meant to be hard to get. Meaning, a vast majority of the player population will never get it, and that’s working as intended. That’s not to speak negative on the skill levels of an individual, but rather how hard the challenge ahead is.

As for your little dig at “play how you want”, Raids don’t prevent you from playing the game. You can play Raids any way you like. Doesn’t mean you’ll be successful. If you want the exclusive rewards at the end of a successful Raid, you need to earn it.

Finally, don’t count out Anet just yet. I’m sure there’ll be more challenging solo content in the future. Liadri was a good challenge when the Queen’s Gauntlet is around. I’m hopeful there’ll be more like that.

Gating exclusive rewards behind challenging content might be fine if that content is based on personal skill, but in my opinion it’s not fine when it’s reliant on the coordination of a lot of players. All it does is punish an individual for how others play, as opposed to catering to their personal skill level. It also punishes players who might be in small guilds, or who have less access to other players of similar skill levels to their own. If I get a legendary, shouldn’t it be based on my own efforts and my own journey?

I also find it odd because very few physical rewards in GW2 have ever been gated exclusively behind difficult content. Not even legendary rewards. Dungeons have easier and harder paths, and dungeon gear can even be gotten from PvP. Mats can be farmed in various ways. Fractal weapons can be gotten even at lower level fractals (though with less drop chance). Ascended can be crafted or found as drops. Etc. Why now change that suddenly and introduce such strict parameters for end game gear that have never really been there before?

As for the “play how you want” argument, my concern is that ANet will abandon other end game content in an effort to concentrate more exclusively on Raids. The fact that they nerfed dungeons and didn’t add any new fractals is already a bad sign. I don’t mind if they add new content to other game modes, because then I can at least play what I want without feeling kitten, but if Raids will be their primary focus form now on, then I do have a cause to be iffy.

I do agree with OP on the fact that it can be very frustrating if some of your raid members arnt up to par. Ive spent hrs every night wiping, often cuz others do mistakes, and it burns me out but gotta get that leg armor. A solo raid would be nice, liadri style only harder :P

DoctorDing.5890:

Don’t like ‘em? Then don’t do ‘em. Simples.
I’ve never been in a dungeon, a fractal or a raid, and my time in HoT was very short-lived but I’m enjoying the rest of the game just fine.
You don’t need those rewards to enjoy yourself. You do, um, play for enjoyment, don’t you?

Indeed, I do. But tell me, how many times can you do the same fractals, dungeons or PvE events before getting bored? If they don’t add new content for existing game modes, then where is the fun?

If the only new end game content takes the form of a game mode I don’t like, while the game modes I do like are ignored or worse, intentionally abandoned, then how am I meant to have fun? X__x

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

DoctorDing.5890:

Don’t like ‘em? Then don’t do ‘em. Simples.
I’ve never been in a dungeon, a fractal or a raid, and my time in HoT was very short-lived but I’m enjoying the rest of the game just fine.
You don’t need those rewards to enjoy yourself. You do, um, play for enjoyment, don’t you?

Indeed, I do. But tell me, how many times can you do the same fractals, dungeons or PvE events before getting bored? If they don’t add new content for existing game modes, then where is the fun?

If the only new end game content takes the form of a game mode I don’t like, while the game modes I do like are ignored or worse, intentionally abandoned, then how am I meant to have fun? X__x

This is exactly why so many people, who clearly aren’t the target audience of raids, are attempting them (or attempting to join LFGs). There’s simply nothing for people to do outside of grinding for this or that.

And they have a miserable experience — after they’re not the target audience.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

DoctorDing.5890:

Don’t like ‘em? Then don’t do ‘em. Simples.
I’ve never been in a dungeon, a fractal or a raid, and my time in HoT was very short-lived but I’m enjoying the rest of the game just fine.
You don’t need those rewards to enjoy yourself. You do, um, play for enjoyment, don’t you?

Indeed, I do. But tell me, how many times can you do the same fractals, dungeons or PvE events before getting bored? If they don’t add new content for existing game modes, then where is the fun?

If the only new end game content takes the form of a game mode I don’t like, while the game modes I do like are ignored or worse, intentionally abandoned, then how am I meant to have fun? X__x

This is exactly why so many people, who clearly aren’t the target audience of raids, are attempting them (or attempting to join LFGs). There’s simply nothing for people to do outside of grinding for this or that.

And they have a miserable experience — after they’re not the target audience.

This is exactly it. I’m also trying to do Raids simply because there was no new content in other end game modes and I’ve already run the meta events in the new areas enough times to be tired. I’m not finding the experience enjoyable at all but what else is there?

1. So basically you want a single player game? I cant see any possibility for creating challenging group content that basically requires only one player to be competent. I also cant see how the new raids prevent you from teaching the mechanics to a new player. If you think the challenge makes everyone toxic…well guess again and get some friendly and reliable people to play it with. However I see your point regarding dungeons, although raids were never meant to replace them. The reward nerf feels kittenty even if I am partially happy for the fact that dumb zerk-corner-stacking does not yield the highest non-TP gold gain any more.

2. Yes, its horrible. Why they did not even think of an extra category is beyond me.

3. Sorry but this reads like you are just salty that you cant get the shinies because of raid, your statement is simply not true. Things like ascended armor or legendary weapons were basically unattainable for ppl primarily playing WvW or sPvP. While it is technically correct that one could obtain a legendary just by playing WvW, the abysmal rewards (depending on what you did in WvW before the remake you were sometimes lucky to get even and on rare occasions even lost gold – compare that to silverwastes) make this basically impossible for everyone but a tiny fraction of players with enough time and will.
A lot of skins and gear is locked behind specific content. Fractal skins and the Legendary Backpack are a “fractal only affair”. The new legendaries are a “HoT only affair”. Mawdrey is a “LS only affair”. Tons of stuff is event only and cant be obtained after the event is finished. The game is full of this – whether you like it or not, anet did with legendary armor what they always do with certain prestige items. How come it is suddenly unfair as soon as its associated with raids? Makes no sense.

4. – You can learn the mechanics in normal mode and still get currency for failing. The vast majority of drops can be attained (over a long period of time ofc) without ever defeating a single boss.

- Time to befriend some competent PvE players then or find a new guild/a guild just for raids (you have 5 slots) or join forces with another small guild or invite pugs or …

- Yes.

- “Play how you want, you will win anyway” and “Challenging content” do not mix, as shown in every instanced 5 man PvE content they ever released.

5. Be glad that you are not a WvW player.

Amenaza.8346:

1. So basically you want a single player game? I cant see any possibility for creating challenging group content that basically requires only one player to be competent. I also cant see how the new raids prevent you from teaching the mechanics to a new player. If you think the challenge makes everyone toxic…well guess again and get some friendly and reliable people to play it with. However I see your point regarding dungeons, although raids were never meant to replace them. The reward nerf feels kittenty even if I am partially happy for the fact that dumb zerk-corner-stacking does not yield the highest non-TP gold gain any more.

2. Yes, its horrible. Why they did not even think of an extra category is beyond me.

3. Sorry but this reads like you are just salty that you cant get the shinies because of raid, your statement is simply not true. Things like ascended armor or legendary weapons were basically unattainable for ppl primarily playing WvW or sPvP. While it is technically correct that one could obtain a legendary just by playing WvW, the abysmal rewards (depending on what you did in WvW before the remake you were sometimes lucky to get even and on rare occasions even lost gold – compare that to silverwastes) make this basically impossible for everyone but a tiny fraction of players with enough time and will.
A lot of skins and gear is locked behind specific content. Fractal skins and the Legendary Backpack are a “fractal only affair”. The new legendaries are a “HoT only affair”. Mawdrey is a “LS only affair”. Tons of stuff is event only and cant be obtained after the event is finished. The game is full of this – whether you like it or not, anet did with legendary armor what they always do with certain prestige items. How come it is suddenly unfair as soon as its associated with raids? Makes no sense.

4. – You can learn the mechanics in normal mode and still get currency for failing. The vast majority of drops can be attained (over a long period of time ofc) without ever defeating a single boss.

- Time to befriend some competent PvE players then or find a new guild/a guild just for raids (you have 5 slots) or join forces with another small guild or invite pugs or …

- Yes.

- “Play how you want, you will win anyway” and “Challenging content” do not mix, as shown in every instanced 5 man PvE content they ever released.

5. Be glad that you are not a WvW player.

1: No, I just don’t want my legendary journey to be dictated by other players. If there are exclusive rewards behind a high difficulty wall, they should be based on individual player skill (like Liadri). If you want to promote more group content, then don’t alienate most of the players who might want to take part in it and make it more accessible. By making it less accessible, you are simply making the act of finding groups unnecessarily difficult, by artificially diminishing the pool or possible Raiders that one would draw from. If I spend an hour or more trying to find a group for raids, then there is clearly something wrong. I should never spend that much time in a GAME waiting in sheer boredom.

3: I’ve gotten plenty of shinies just fine, including full ascended gear for all my mains, legendaries I wanted and even fractal weapons I wanted. If legendary armor gets added exclusively to raids I’d probably still get it anyway if it was something I really wanted as well. My concern is that a large majority of players will not be able to get rewards simply because of the nature of raids in their current iteration. It’s a legitimate concern because I actually care for the wellbeing of the entire playerbase, not just my own.

Some people act as though it’s a good thing for rewards to be exclusive to a very tiny minority of players, but they’re forgetting that this is just a game at the end of the day and a game should be fun for everyone, not just for a minority. Why not allow people to get what they want and enjoy it, even if it just means taking a bit of a longer or alternative route? To appease some players who need to feel like they’re special snowflakes in a game?

4: I’ve befriended a lot of players. Mind you, that doesn’t make it any easier to get them all on at the same time, ready to run a Raid on my personal whim. Getting a five man group together is okay. Getting a ideal ten man group together with a specific group composition and the right balance is far, far more difficult. What if the friends that are actually online don’t have condition gear and I need more condition damage, as an example?

""Play how you want, you will win anyway" and “Challenging content” do not mix, as shown in every instanced 5 man PvE content they ever released." Tell that to Fractals, the one place where ANet managed to strike a nice balance between reward and challenge, and catered to all players at the same time.

5: I feel bad for WvW players honestly, but that’s another discussion entirely.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Hey all.

1: The creation of ‘Challenging Content’ should not be taken to unreasonable extremes.

Now, don’t get me wrong, it’s not challenging content in itself that I do not like. In fact, I love challenging content. But what I don’t like is when the completion of challenging content is not dependent on my own skills, but rather the skills of 9 other players who I have to hope are incredibly competent… ~snip~

This is pretty much where I stopped reading. Last time I checked, this game was still labled as MMORPG – Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. I stress the 2nd word: multiplayer, as in multiple players. More than one.. Raids are not for Solo-Players. They have never been and will never be aimed at this group of players.

So if you’re a solo-player – get over it. If you aren’t, get a good guild.

i did not buy raiding game and i do not play raiding games….after i put over 2000 hours into this game and spent 500 euro on it..all of sudden the game becomes a traditional raiding game with sweet legendary armor is locked behind raiding wall just like raiding games where high end gear and special reward comes from raiding only.
at least rift/wild star/wow were honest as matter of fact they even reduce the difficulty or added easy mode to help casual players while gw2 did not even add easier version.
to me anet betrayed me and i will never spend a single euro on this game and when next expansion comes i will wait for review and ask my friends if next expansion is similar to hot then i wont even buy it.
and to all fanboys do not even tell me legendary armor is optional…i bought gw2 because everything in the game including legendary items were access able to even most casual players it was just matter of time but it was possible to get it non the less.

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game and i do not play raiding games….after i put over 2000 hours into this game and spent 500 euro on it..all of sudden the game becomes a traditional raiding game with sweet legendary armor is locked behind raiding wall just like raiding games where high end gear and special reward comes from raiding only.
at least rift/wild star/wow were honest as matter of fact they even reduce the difficulty or added easy mode to help casual players while gw2 did not even add easier version.
to me anet betrayed me and i will never spend a single euro on this game and when next expansion comes i will wait for review and ask my friends if next expansion is similar to hot then i wont even buy it.
and to all fanboys do not even tell me legendary armor is optional…i bought gw2 because everything in the game including legendary items were access able to even most casual players it was just matter of time but it was possible to get it non the less.

This is good, no ?

Yeah sums it up well, and how many players must feel right now.

I’m sure people start selling raids sooner or later. Just farm SW bit more so you can pay them.

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

I hate that it takes a new player over 3 months just to get geared for the raid.

First of all, let me start off by saying that I consider myself above average gamer if not hardcore. But…

I hate raids. The “challenging group content” is so unappealing for me. I know that it’s an MMO and I am forced to play with people for some reason, but having to rely on so many people to do hard content will surely bring some negativism. Dungeons were more than fine, kitten people is the perfect number to do content.

Needless to say, I haven’t done and I am not planning to do any raids. Locking legendary armor behind raids is just absurd.

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax. So where exactly is your point?

Beshbaliq.3724:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Hey all.

1: The creation of ‘Challenging Content’ should not be taken to unreasonable extremes.

Now, don’t get me wrong, it’s not challenging content in itself that I do not like. In fact, I love challenging content. But what I don’t like is when the completion of challenging content is not dependent on my own skills, but rather the skills of 9 other players who I have to hope are incredibly competent… ~snip~

This is pretty much where I stopped reading. Last time I checked, this game was still labled as MMORPG – Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. I stress the 2nd word: multiplayer, as in multiple players. More than one.. Raids are not for Solo-Players. They have never been and will never be aimed at this group of players.

So if you’re a solo-player – get over it. If you aren’t, get a good guild.

Yes, this is an MMO, which is why it’s even more strange that ANet seems to be ignoring the “Massive” aspect of their own game in favor of catering to a small minority. Perhaps if you read further and understood the context of my point, rather than cherry picking and applying your own meaning, you would have understood what I was trying to say.

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day that they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax East. So where exactly is your point?

omg do you have reading issue,you can not read dates.
first you said months before(like 6 months before) release now you link announcement made just few months before release and after pax south
really?? you can not read dates?? you do have issue with numbers READ THE DATE OF ANNOUNCEMENT.
never say months like 6 months or something before release again because that is lie.
my point is when they announced pre-order at pax south they did not give proper information hence remember the people who bought the the core game just weeks before F2P announcement and anet had to refund their money.
the point is anet lied
as for pre-order i said in my very first post ill never pre order again yet alone spending money on this game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

3: Gating exclusive rewards behind challenging content further alienates your playerbase

This is another worry I have with Raids, and that is that exclusive rewards like legendary armor will be unattainable by a vast majority of players because of the difficulty of Raids and the inconvenience of forming Raid groups.

Unlike legendary weapons, which can be acquired regardless of what game modes you play, legendary armor will seemingly be a Raid only affair. Not only do I feel this is unfair for players who might not enjoy Raids, but I also believe it hurts the “play how you want” policy that ANet has been punting for years and yet have somehow completely ignored as they’ve further developed the game.

Before I respond, I’d like to point out that I haven’t beaten the Raids yet.

Now then, gating exclusive content behind challenging content is perfectly fine. Legendary armor was meant to be hard to get. Meaning, a vast majority of the player population will never get it, and that’s working as intended. That’s not to speak negative on the skill levels of an individual, but rather how hard the challenge ahead is.

As for your little dig at “play how you want”, Raids don’t prevent you from playing the game. You can play Raids any way you like. Doesn’t mean you’ll be successful. If you want the exclusive rewards at the end of a successful Raid, you need to earn it.

Finally, don’t count out Anet just yet. I’m sure there’ll be more challenging solo content in the future. Liadri was a good challenge when the Queen’s Gauntlet is around. I’m hopeful there’ll be more like that.

Yet it’s hard to deny that the casual player base of the game feels marginalized by HoT in general and raids in specific.

Once you start feeling the game isn’t for you anymore, you start thinking about whether you should keep playing. After all, they made an entire expansion for people who basically enjoy harder content.

And yes, we’ve heard from a number of people who feel the game has changed and it’s no longer for them.

If you think Anet can ignore those people with impunity, I’m willing to wager that they make up a significant portion fo the player base.

I said this would happen before raids released and I’m not thinking I underestimated the effect on the game’s casual population, even if some people deal with it.

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day that they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax East. So where exactly is your point?

omg do you have reading issue,you can not read dates.
first you said months before release now you link announcement made few weeks before release.
really?? you can not read dates?? you do have issue with numbers READ THE DATE OF ANNOUNCEMENT.
never say months before release again because that is lie.

Maybe you should read my post again? Never said anything about months, that was you. I only wrote they announced it “long before release” – a month before release counts as long before, at least in my book. So maybe just maybe, don’t throw arround insults about reading issues while having those issues yourself

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax. So where exactly is your point?

That post was on the 29th of August. HoTS was released just under two months later on the 23rd of October. Leaving out such an important detail until just two months before launch, after having the game on Prepurchase for quite a while is not really what I’d consider giving players much notice, especially for a game that never had raids for 3 years.

Firstly, I’m unlikely to ever set foot in one of GW2’s raids due to my time-poor casual play style, but I’m not going to begrudge the fact that they were added to the game as there is a section of the playerbase that clearly wants challenging group content in this kind of format.

However the first raid wing has been out for about 2 weeks and people expect to be able to complete it with pugs? If I was looking to work towards my legendary armor right now, I’d be looking for a guild or other group of like-minded people who are willing to put in the time and effort to learn the fights and “get good” at them.

This doesn’t really excuse the issues with LFG, but I don’t think ANet expected raiders to use the tool to form pick up groups to take on content that requires organization and coordination.

Given you can also work towards legendary armor without defeating a raid boss, I think ANet has at least offered a path for obtaining it that doesn’t solely rely on how skilled your companions are.

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day that they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax East. So where exactly is your point?

omg do you have reading issue,you can not read dates.
first you said months before release now you link announcement made few weeks before release.
really?? you can not read dates?? you do have issue with numbers READ THE DATE OF ANNOUNCEMENT.
never say months before release again because that is lie.

Maybe you should read my post again? Never said anything about months, that was you. I only wrote they announced it “long before release” – a month before release counts as long before, at least in my book. So maybe just maybe, don’t throw arround insults about reading issues while having those issues yourself

long before in your book is one month??
then 6months is like years to you and years is like centuries to you…hmmm that explain you now i get it..you are good man be happy

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax. So where exactly is your point?

That post was on the 29th of August. HoTS was released just under two months later on the 23rd of October. Leaving out such an important detail until just two months before launch, after having the game on Prepurchase for quite a while is not really what I’d consider giving players much notice, especially for a game that never had raids for 3 years.

Again, if you pre-order without having all the informations, than that’s your fault, and nobody elses. Sure, you could pre-order way before they announced raids, but then again, you could still “pre-order” just some hours before release. So if you bought a package without knowing what’s inside and end up don’t liking it, don’t blame the one who sold it to you, blame yourself for not checking the contents.

And yes, it is as simple as that.

The raids are puggable, u just gotta show some initiative and add the good players to friendslist and slowly build up a base of 10 players. Raids are all about having people who know how to do several things at once and understand the mechanics.

The downside is that its so kitten time consuming lol, especially if u have a party that wipes often due to mistakes and its clear some ppl wont improve themselves. If we could only know when next raid wing is out so we wouldnt have to rush it that much in the start. By the looks of the legendary Collection one must kill gorseval 5 times, and sab 1, and then thats perhaps it for Spirit Vale?

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day that they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax East. So where exactly is your point?

omg do you have reading issue,you can not read dates.
first you said months before release now you link announcement made few weeks before release.
really?? you can not read dates?? you do have issue with numbers READ THE DATE OF ANNOUNCEMENT.
never say months before release again because that is lie.

Maybe you should read my post again? Never said anything about months, that was you. I only wrote they announced it “long before release” – a month before release counts as long before, at least in my book. So maybe just maybe, don’t throw arround insults about reading issues while having those issues yourself

long before in your book is one month??
then 6months is like years to you and years is like centuries to you…hmmm that explain you now i get it..you are good man be happy

Yup, one month before release is long if I can still “pre-order” 6 to 12 hours before release. The fact that they announced it almost 2 months before release gave people more than enough time to contact ANet so as to cancel any existing pre-order if they wanted to.

Beshbaliq.3724:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax. So where exactly is your point?

That post was on the 29th of August. HoTS was released just under two months later on the 23rd of October. Leaving out such an important detail until just two months before launch, after having the game on Prepurchase for quite a while is not really what I’d consider giving players much notice, especially for a game that never had raids for 3 years.

Again, if you pre-order without having all the informations, than that’s your fault, and nobody elses. Sure, you could pre-order way before they announced raids, but then again, you could still “pre-order” just some hours before release. So if you bought a package without knowing what’s inside and end up don’t liking it, don’t blame the one who sold it to you, blame yourself for not checking the contents.

And yes, it is as simple as that.

That wasn’t the point I was getting at. The issue is not just pre-orders (which can be cancelled and refunded), but also the fact that so little time was left for player feedback on Raids or any kind of meaningful, constructive development therein.

Had they announced it sooner, they could have had more time to test it, get feedback and then balance the game mode out more. Or, alternatively, learn whether people were interested in Raids and get a nice indication on what general percentage of the player-base was looking forward to playing them. In turn that could have helped ANet form contingencies in the case of players not wanting to do Raids (like adding other alternative forms of content), or ensuring that Raids were accessible enough to be enjoyed by a larger portion of the overall playerbase.

Proper testing could have also helped alleviate issues, such as the difficulties of finding groups for Raids. The Squad system could have been refined more before launch, rather than being released half broken and potentially only fixed months after release.

To me, it’s pointless to focus all your energy in one new form of end game content if there’s the possibility that only 10% of your playerbase will actually end up playing it. What happens to the other 90% who have already played existing content to the point of boredom and who were hoping for something new, but who are excluded because of how inaccessible that new content is? Do you risk them leaving the game, just so you can cater to a minority? Not only does that not make sense from a “fun” point of view, it doesn’t make sense from a business point of view.

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

Trixie.7614:

saye.9304:

Beshbaliq.3724:

saye.9304:

i did not buy raiding game …

Yes you did. You bought such a game with HoT. They announced long before release that raids would be added and that said raids would have unique rewards that are unobtainable anywhere else.

So why are you whining now? Did you just preorder HoT before any content was known? That’s your fault. You could preorder as late as some hours before release.

You don’t go to any car dealer, “pre-order” next years convertible without getting any information on it and then rage around like “I thought it would get from 0 to 200mp/h in 2 seconds, you betrayed me…”

Seriously, do you guys even read what you write?

the raiding with full info announced last, few weeks before the lunch…not including data mining and speculations.
wait a minute you are saying you do not know when Anet constantly advertising non traditional mmo.
interesting how fanboy defending this at least ask anet to give you some money or something because if you defend them on your own then get life.
they lied they added traditional stuff to the game.
you read what you write before defending a company that advertised their game as non raiding non traditional game for 3 years and few weeks before the lunch suddenly announce raiding is coming.

Please never edit your post. It’s hilarious.

i wont because anet said there will be challenging content never directly and officially said it is raiding with legendary armor.
as matter of fact people who were asking is expansion worth the price they were asking what is this challenging stuff exactly even wooden potato had video about it just soon after pre order announcement and asking what is this challenging content..rest was speculation and no official announcement.
now that person saying anet announced raiding months before with detail..where is the source??

The source? Here:
http://dulfy.net/2015/08/29/gw2-pax-prime-challenging-content-livestream-notes/
Announced on the same day that they announced the F2P-Model, at Pax East. So where exactly is your point?

omg do you have reading issue,you can not read dates.
first you said months before release now you link announcement made few weeks before release.
really?? you can not read dates?? you do have issue with numbers READ THE DATE OF ANNOUNCEMENT.
never say months before release again because that is lie.

Maybe you should read my post again? Never said anything about months, that was you. I only wrote they announced it “long before release” – a month before release counts as long before, at least in my book. So maybe just maybe, don’t throw arround insults about reading issues while having those issues yourself

long before in your book is one month??
then 6months is like years to you and years is like centuries to you…hmmm that explain you now i get it..you are good man be happy

Yup, one month before release is long if I can still “pre-order” 6 to 12 hours before release. The fact that they announced it almost 2 months before release gave people more than enough time to contact ANet so as to cancel any existing pre-order if they wanted to.

so basically you telling people what i said in my very first post..i said i will never pre-order again and now you are saying do it do not pre -order or cancel it.
that is point why anet went toward traditional gameplay while for the past 3 years game was non traditional game and based on ncsoft financial report gw2 was doing fine..why the sudden change??
and you basically saying what i said…do not pre order..it is just that you think you are defending anet by saying do not pre order anymore well that hurts anet sells.
anet lost trust of some of their customer base..how big or small is that we should wait and see.

I think the biggest issue is that there is no other content to play. The expansion didn’t add in any real content.

We got 1/5th of a personal story that takes 3-4 hours to finish. We got 4 meta events that take 100+ people to clear, and we got 1 raid that takes 10 people to clear. We got no real solo content and no small group content. That means once you finish the PS your only other long term option is to raid.

The second problem is that there has been no challenging content in this game since launch. People haven’t had to increase their skill as the game progressed. In WoW the game gets harder and harder as you progress, leading you into dungeons, then hard mode dungeons, then story mode raids, then hard mode raids. You steadily increase your gear and skill so by the time you step into a raid you are at least mostly prepared to tackle it. In GW2 you go from 1-shotting bunnies with auto attack in the open world, to raids. The current raid is not hard. It took all of 2 days for the best guilds to beat it. Compare that to the 3+ weeks it takes the best guilds in WoW to beat the hardest raids.

The GW2 raid is currently the difficulty of most MMO’s hard mode dungeons. People just aren’t used to having to actually pay attention and use their skills yet. This first wing will be easily puggable once people figure out that they can dodge and have more than 1 skill.

Thanks to OP…
You pointed out all my thoughts about raids.
/sign every single argument you wrote down.

If I didn’t like raiding and I paid sufficient attention to note that Anet hosted a lengthy forum initiative to discuss the possibilities of how to implement raids in gw2, and that Anet then posted that they were hiring a raid designer, and that Anet subsequently stated that they were working on an expansion that would include new, challenging, group content, I might hold off on buying the expansion until the details were revealed.

Raids are not the only new endgame content. The entirety of HoT is endgame.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I think the biggest issue is that there is no other content to play. The expansion didn’t add in any real content.

We got 1/5th of a personal story that takes 3-4 hours to finish. We got 4 meta events that take 100+ people to clear, and we got 1 raid that takes 10 people to clear. We got no real solo content and no small group content. That means once you finish the PS your only other long term option is to raid.

The second problem is that there has been no challenging content in this game since launch. People haven’t had to increase their skill as the game progressed. In WoW the game gets harder and harder as you progress, leading you into dungeons, then hard mode dungeons, then story mode raids, then hard mode raids. You steadily increase your gear and skill so by the time you step into a raid you are at least mostly prepared to tackle it. In GW2 you go from 1-shotting bunnies with auto attack in the open world, to raids. The current raid is not hard. It took all of 2 days for the best guilds to beat it. Compare that to the 3+ weeks it takes the best guilds in WoW to beat the hardest raids.

The GW2 raid is currently the difficulty of most MMO’s hard mode dungeons. People just aren’t used to having to actually pay attention and use their skills yet. This first wing will be easily puggable once people figure out that they can dodge and have more than 1 skill.

so basically it is not hard core enough for hard core players and it is not casual enough for casuals..it is something in between which is not good in my opinion.
after 2 days all those hard core will whine about lack of content and casual are still complaining about difficulty.
at least the core world was very casual friendly and as matter of fact mmorpg.com listed gw2 as number 1 casual mmo,that is how gw2 found certain player base
now the hard core raiders will go for wow mythic raiding or rift or wild star while casual player base which formed during last 3 years are complaining about difficulty and time consuming raiding.

The raid isnt time consuming its just hard and its a 10 man anyways thats hardly on league with the other game 20 and 40 man raids. Only one raid right now so just give them time to fine tune them to how they and we want them.

“1: The creation of ‘Challenging Content’ should not be taken to unreasonable extremes.”
I kinda agree, but its not that extreme, that far, max tries i have done on any boss is 20 and it was vale guardian.
“2: Functionality for forming and maintaining Raid groups is incredibly lackluster”
I agree here, they need to implement LFR tab in matchmaking search.
“3: Gating exclusive rewards behind challenging content further alienates your playerbase”
Thats just made up bullkitten, first of all, legendary weapons are not for everybody, they are for farm kids or wealthy people who can afford those.
Legendary armor is a first thing they added that you get for proving something like teamwork.
About alienating people. After they introduced raids and i tried to beat bosses and raid as whole i got more friends and followers than i had for last 2 years of gw2. We even whisper each other when we find a raid group, and we discuss things like builds and news.

5. Check games like SWTOR or Destiny, to see from where Anet took their inspiration for raids.

saye.9304:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I think the biggest issue is that there is no other content to play. The expansion didn’t add in any real content.

We got 1/5th of a personal story that takes 3-4 hours to finish. We got 4 meta events that take 100+ people to clear, and we got 1 raid that takes 10 people to clear. We got no real solo content and no small group content. That means once you finish the PS your only other long term option is to raid.

The second problem is that there has been no challenging content in this game since launch. People haven’t had to increase their skill as the game progressed. In WoW the game gets harder and harder as you progress, leading you into dungeons, then hard mode dungeons, then story mode raids, then hard mode raids. You steadily increase your gear and skill so by the time you step into a raid you are at least mostly prepared to tackle it. In GW2 you go from 1-shotting bunnies with auto attack in the open world, to raids. The current raid is not hard. It took all of 2 days for the best guilds to beat it. Compare that to the 3+ weeks it takes the best guilds in WoW to beat the hardest raids.

The GW2 raid is currently the difficulty of most MMO’s hard mode dungeons. People just aren’t used to having to actually pay attention and use their skills yet. This first wing will be easily puggable once people figure out that they can dodge and have more than 1 skill.

so basically it is not hard core enough for hard core players and it is not casual enough for casuals..it is something in between which is not good in my opinion.
after 2 days all those hard core will whine about lack of content and casual are still complaining about difficulty.
at least the core world was very casual friendly and as matter of fact mmorpg.com listed gw2 as number 1 casual mmo,that is how gw2 found certain player base
now the hard core raiders will go for wow mythic raiding or rift or wild star while casual player base which formed during last 3 years are complaining about difficulty and time consuming raiding.

The raid isn’t hard it is just time consuming. It takes about 10 hours to really learn each boss. Once you learn the basic mechanics the bosses are actually fairly simple and the raid will only take you less than an hour to complete. It seems the casuals want to skip the learning part however and just go straight to the loot earning part. Which is not how raids work, nor should they ever work like that.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The raid isn’t hard it is just time consuming. It takes about 10 hours to really learn each boss. Once you learn the basic mechanics the bosses are actually fairly simple and the raid will only take you less than an hour to complete. It seems the casuals want to skip the learning part however and just go straight to the loot earning part. Which is not how raids work, nor should they ever work like that.

I don’t think people are worried about the time it take’s to learn the “Basic Mechanics” of raiding, or the learning curve.

I’m a casual, I don’t expect to be able to skip that part.

However a a “Casual” I just can’t get into a raid party at all, because I don’t “Conform” to the way these elitists want you to be.

That’s what bugs me, content in a game (Remember I paid the same price as you did) that I will forever be barred from experiencing.

Raids were poorly thought out, there should be difficulty levels, with relevant rewards, so that everybody can experience the game content they paid good money for.

What’s the good of buying a game when you are excluded from a big part of it.

Bad planning by ArenaNet.

I disagree with most of the complain from the OP, but I agree with most of his solution.

“1: The creation of ‘Challenging Content’ should not be taken to unreasonable extremes.”
Yes it should. The goal is to satisfy good players and so far these raid are just ok on the difficulty part. But we already start to farm some bosses. The Vale Guardian is now pretty easy for more regular squad. Extreme for you, is borderline decent for others.

“2: Functionality for forming and maintaining Raid groups is incredibly lackluster”
Totally agree here. The squad and the LFG don’t work at all together. We can’t invite someone from the guild panel into a squad or from the chat. The LFG should have the a section for raids and raid should have a lobby.

“3: Gating exclusive rewards behind challenging content further alienates your playerbase”
Partially disagree. There should be exclusive skin reward behind challenging content. People want the prestige from exclusive skin. If you see someone with the legendary armor you know that he completed the whole raid. That said, I disagree with gating legendary armor as a whole beind raids. There should be exclusive legendary armor for PvP, WvW and Open World.

Solutions

- There should be variable difficulty in raids. You need that hardcore difficulty for a portion of the playerbase, but it’s not economically viable to spend money on a content for only a small portion of your playerbase either. I was thinking that before raid was in the game and I still think that, even if I probably never play the easy mode. Love the current raid

- I’m not super into the 5 and 10 man possibility, but it’s not impossible. Again this would open the raid to more people. They could simply drop the bosses HP by like 60-70% less than now (because it’s harder to maintain all the role in a group of 5 and have enough dps). They could modify stuff like only need 1 person to go into the circle at Vale Guardian. They don’t need to change everything in the raid to accommodate that.

Thaddeus.4891:

I disagree with most of the complain from the OP, but I agree with most of his solution…

1: I consider myself to be quite a good player all things considered, but how good I am personally doesn’t matter if the group isn’t functioning well as a whole. People quitting half way through a boss attempt, causing anything between minutes to hours being lost trying to replace them and ensure good group composition is not an acceptable extreme to me. I’m not sure why it would be for anyone.

2: We agree on this point, but it’s also this particular issue that also perpetuates issue number 1, in that it’s hard to get a good enough group together to do challenging content when you don’t have the correct tools to do so. It means you’re usually left with a hashed-together group of whoever you could find, which is typically not optimal enough to achieve anything worthwhile. Increasing accessibility in any form will help out a load.

3: I don’t mind exclusive skins being tied to different content, but you definitely shouldn’t lock an entire gear category behind only one game mode – in this case, legendary armor. There should always be alternative ways to get different tiers of gear. Like with ascended, you can craft it, get it from certain world bosses or events, or even from fractals. Yes, there are unique skins tied to specific events (like sunless weapons), but it’s not like the entire ascended tier is locked behind only one game mode. With Legendary armor, so far as we know, Raids are the only means to acquiring it, which I believe is less than ideal. That is, unless they come out with alternate versions in other game modes, in which case I think that would be great, because it gives players who don’t want to do Raids an alternative means of acquiring legendary gear (even if it looks different).

Keep in mind though that legendary gear is not just about flashy skins. It brings a huge amount of functionality and quality of life improvements to players because it allows them to change builds between encounters to suit whatever they need. I don’t think that kind of functionality should only be offered to raid players. Flashy skins and vanity items are one thing, but this is gameplay functionality we’re talking about here.

I agree with your solution points. It’s really just about making it more accessible. It doesn’t mean taking away the challenge for those who want it, but rather just making the journey into more difficult content more of an upward slope and less of a sheer wall. Ideally though, I’m hoping Raids are not the only end game content ANet plans to focus on going forward. I’m hoping to see more development in other areas as well, because Raids are not everyone’s cup of tea.

Solid Gold.9310:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The raid isn’t hard it is just time consuming. It takes about 10 hours to really learn each boss. Once you learn the basic mechanics the bosses are actually fairly simple and the raid will only take you less than an hour to complete. It seems the casuals want to skip the learning part however and just go straight to the loot earning part. Which is not how raids work, nor should they ever work like that.

I don’t think people are worried about the time it take’s to learn the “Basic Mechanics” of raiding, or the learning curve.

I’m a casual, I don’t expect to be able to skip that part.

However a a “Casual” I just can’t get into a raid party at all, because I don’t “Conform” to the way these elitists want you to be.

That’s what bugs me, content in a game (Remember I paid the same price as you did) that I will forever be barred from experiencing.

Raids were poorly thought out, there should be difficulty levels, with relevant rewards, so that everybody can experience the game content they paid good money for.

What’s the good of buying a game when you are excluded from a big part of it.

Bad planning by ArenaNet.

Last I checked there was nothing blocking you from making your own raid. You can invite all the non-elitists you want, make a raid and do it yourself. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing this.

That being said I have absolutely no problem with having different difficulties so everyone can beat the raid. As long as the rewards are properly divided with the easiest level awarding nothing but the satisfaction of completing the content.

I found it funny how there were a few people talking about how the game shouldn’t be reliant on a group of people, but individual skill, and yet the game is called “Guild Wars 2”. Funny that.

To OP:

Your argument for #1 is downright silly. It’s group content. It’s designed as group content. It’s not meant to be solo content.

If you want Anet to produce more challenging solo content, then ask for more challenge motes in the story instances.

I half-agree half-disagree with #2. I can agree that forming squads is rather tedious, but Anet never said raids were a “go in and have fun” gameplay. If anything, they said it wasn’t such. They always said it would be the most challenging content in the game, and would need some serious considerations to build composition and the like.

Regarding #3: Exclusive content was always around. Unfortunately, ArenaNet reduced such for the original set of legendary weapons but originally you had to do WvW and dungeons to get them. There was no other ways. Slowly Anet changed that, and I kind of wish that they’d revoke such changes or change the recipes a bit. But you get what you get.

Legendary gear is meant to be hard to get and require playing a specific piece of content.

They kind of screwed the pooch with the original legendary weapons, especially the collections, in how they’ve so distanced from dungeons, but I’d say they did good with the legendary backpieces and the armor – I’ve not looked much into the second legendary weapon set so I won’t comment there.

Loli Ruri.8307:

I found it funny how there were a few people talking about how the game shouldn’t be reliant on a group of people, but individual skill, and yet the game is called “Guild Wars 2”. Funny that.

Ya, I find it funny too. It’s a MMO, not a single players game. Want some challenging content when only your skill count, there is Darksouls and others for that. GW2 is a MMO, it’s made to play with several players. That mean you must live with the good (socialize and teamwork) and the bad (rely on other people).