Guild Wars 2

Even if today’s release flops, I don’t see myself leaving.

sure I’ll be disappointed, but the way I see it :

I’m an ex-WoW player, and I’ve been to WoW’s endgame 3 times, and it sucks. You do the same things over and over again grinding to get the best gear, then an expansion is released and it invalidates everything you did.
On top of all of this, the world never changes. You do a quest about building up a settlement in some place and you come back a year later and its still just a “new up and coming settlement still being built”. Then, an expansion comes out, and a whole new world is given to you, but also tons of other lore stuff happens and it makes you feel like you’ve been trapped under a rock for the past year. You only find out about the lore changes through the wiki or stories the website releases, as opposed to GW2 where you experience it first hand, with everyone else.

Not trying to be a fanboy or anything. just getting ready for the “the new LS update sucks! GW2 is dead!!” posts surly to come later today, because face it, no matter how awesome the new update is, there will always be whiners.

when`s the new update coming?

I have no experience with WoW so I had no idea it was actually that bad. I suppose without the ability (or creativity) to do what Anet is doing, that was the best that game could do.

I agree with you though, it’s pretty fantastic being able to see things unfold, even if some events are lackluster. For example, if the Consortium comes back in a big way in a few months, I feel like I’ll be gleeful in that “I remember when the Consortium first moved to LA” kind of way. The Southsun events could have definitely been better, but they were definitely experienced by us.

A few months or years down the road, it will be very interesting to see the development of many characters, which ones come back, and how they interact with each other. What happened to the Molten Alliance? How does Rox’s interaction with Rytlock go? Etc. etc.

Despite some of the shortcomings of many of the stories, I still find it exciting, yes. I look forward to tomorrow’s update.

i think tomorrow.

its 20 august 2013 over here (GMT+8:00) the server time is GMT -7:00 so for me i think i’ll see it by tomorrow, the new patch.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

I have no experience with WoW so I had no idea it was actually that bad. I suppose without the ability (or creativity) to do what Anet is doing, that was the best that game could do.

Well a lot of it is because the game is 10 years old + now so a lot of the stuff that needs to be done to revive the game just CANT be done because of the technology.
Not like i would ever go back, I would never pay 15 a month ever again for that gripe.

Indeed, OP sums it up neatly. End-game for WoW has two main parts:
1/ repeat the same boring tank&spank content
2/ wait until a patch destroys your character
rinse repeat

It’s not fun. GW2 is fun mostly because the gear progression is so shallow.

marnick.4305:

Indeed, OP sums it up neatly. End-game for WoW has two main parts:
1/ repeat the same boring tank&spank content
2/ wait until a patch destroys your character
rinse repeat

It’s not fun. GW2 is fun mostly because the gear progression is so shallow.

Exactly, and now with the news that they’re gonna turn character profession progression down the path that they went in GW1 excites me the most.

In guild wars one, you leveled to 20 (20 was top level) and that was just about when the game had began, PvE or otherwise. by the time i was level 20 in the PvE stories, i would be about 10% done with the story, maybe less. So in order to progress and beat those level 30 baddies, you had to get better skills/abilities, and you committed the battles with better strategy.
Now with them releasing that briefing for their plan for next year, adding more skills and traits ect. im getting really excited for it to become as extremely diverse and intricate as it was in GW1.
the best news to this?
NO MORE INVALIDATION OF WHAT I ALREADY WORKED FOR
heres the article, the stuff about the addition of new skills is around the middle down.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

marnick.4305:

Indeed, OP sums it up neatly. End-game for WoW has two main parts:
1/ repeat the same boring tank&spank content
2/ wait until a patch destroys your character
rinse repeat

It’s not fun. GW2 is fun mostly because the gear progression is so shallow.

You can say whatever you want but those boss fights in WoW were awesome, I played WotlK and had to luck to participate in some ICC raids (the last raid tier in the expansion if I recall correctly) and I had so much fun with it. They really brought the whole “red circles are bad” thing to a new level, a level I would love to see in GW2.

It’s nice to see an “I’m not leaving” post. I’m excited for the big news, whatever it is. Sure it could be disappointing, but I’m having a lot of fun with the game anyway, and your WoW comparison is spot on.

Sitkaz.5463:

It’s nice to see an “I’m not leaving” post. I’m excited for the big news, whatever it is. Sure it could be disappointing, but I’m having a lot of fun with the game anyway, and your WoW comparison is spot on.

Thanks i honestly was expecting to get a ton of flak for what i said about WoW

Zayd Akira.1942:

Not trying to be a fanboy or anything. just getting ready for the “the new LS update sucks! GW2 is dead!!” posts surly to come later today, because face it, no matter how awesome the new update is, there will always be whiners.

I don’t even know why I’m answering in another topic – it must be that I really hate the term “whiner”.
Look, I’ve played this game for a year, have 1k hours in it (and it isn’t much). I’ve played and liked every aspect of this game. The main problem is that after this one year, almost kittening 365 days the game haven’t evolved or at least in a direction that would be appreciated by majority of players and this is alarming (are vets from GW1 happy with GW2? – it’s like Diablo 3 again).
If you are ok with reality then cool! I won’t try to convince you.
But for me it’s not cool. Many important aspects, many bugs haven’t been touched and it seems that they won’t be in a long way because we are being fed with LS that brought nothing good to game in general.
I consider this post as objective.

Gizmo.8623:

Zayd Akira.1942:

Not trying to be a fanboy or anything. just getting ready for the “the new LS update sucks! GW2 is dead!!” posts surly to come later today, because face it, no matter how awesome the new update is, there will always be whiners.

I don’t even know why I’m answering in another topic – it must be that I really hate the term “whiner”.
Look, I’ve played this game for a year, have 1k hours in it (and it isn’t much). I’ve played and liked every aspect of this game. The main problem is that after this one year, almost kittening 365 days the game haven’t evolved or at least in a direction that would be appreciated by majority of players and this is alarming (are vets from GW1 happy with GW2? – it’s like Diablo 3 again).
If you are ok with reality then cool! I won’t try to convince you.
But for me it’s not cool. Many important aspects, many bugs haven’t been touched and it seems that they won’t be in a long way because we are being fed with LS that brought nothing good to game in general.
I consider this post as objective.

There’s a difference between people constructively pointing out GW2’s flaws, which I never said it didn’t have, than being one of “thoseeee poeplee” whom come onto the forums and whine, and cry, and complain and over exaggerate and are all gloom and doom. we’ve all seen them, and those are the people I meant by whiners.
The point of my post was to show that

“hey, you may think its bad here… but imagine how crappy it is over there!!!”

And to be fair, GW2 is only a year old, WoW has had around 13 years to fix it’s issues, and it’s still… you know… the way it is…

I’ve played WoW a bit (maybe a year) and it always felt that I’m there post factum to any relevant and important events and I’m just cleaning the mess.
It’s true that in GW2 we have priviledge to participate in actual events but for me it’s a way too little to enjoy this title how I thought I will be enjoying it after a year.

Was chatting with a dev ingame this evening, he was saying tomorrow we would see epic battles and that was just the beginning.

I’m very excited!

I’m basically on-board for everything you said. If only ANet would avoid new gear tiers, this would be the MMO that’s come closest to perfection in my mind.

Gizmo.8623:

Zayd Akira.1942:

Not trying to be a fanboy or anything. just getting ready for the “the new LS update sucks! GW2 is dead!!” posts surly to come later today, because face it, no matter how awesome the new update is, there will always be whiners.

I don’t even know why I’m answering in another topic – it must be that I really hate the term “whiner”.
Look, I’ve played this game for a year, have 1k hours in it (and it isn’t much). I’ve played and liked every aspect of this game. The main problem is that after this one year, almost kittening 365 days the game haven’t evolved or at least in a direction that would be appreciated by majority of players and this is alarming (are vets from GW1 happy with GW2? – it’s like Diablo 3 again).
If you are ok with reality then cool! I won’t try to convince you.
But for me it’s not cool. Many important aspects, many bugs haven’t been touched and it seems that they won’t be in a long way because we are being fed with LS that brought nothing good to game in general.
I consider this post as objective.

It hasn’t evolved in the direction the majority of players like? What majority? Where do you get your information? Have you polled all the players?

Comments like this are much weaker, because you can’t substantiate your point. It’s true you might be right, but you can’t know, and saying you do brings the entire post into question.

Vayne.8563:

It hasn’t evolved in the direction the majority of players like? What majority? Where do you get your information? Have you polled all the players?

Comments like this are much weaker, because you can’t substantiate your point. It’s true you might be right, but you can’t know, and saying you do brings the entire post into question.

Ok – majority of ppl who answered in latest big topics related to the issue

Karizee.8076:

Was chatting with a dev ingame this evening, he was saying tomorrow we would see epic battles and that was just the beginning.

I’m very excited!

The Battle for Divinity’s Reach? It would be pretty cool. Now I’m just concerned about players that are starting new human characters and how they would be affected.

zeromius.1604:

Karizee.8076:

Was chatting with a dev ingame this evening, he was saying tomorrow we would see epic battles and that was just the beginning.

I’m very excited!

The Battle for Divinity’s Reach? It would be pretty cool. Now I’m just concerned about players that are starting new human characters and how they would be affected.

Hopefully, it’ll be something like, “This kitten is bananas!”

Gizmo.8623:

Vayne.8563:

It hasn’t evolved in the direction the majority of players like? What majority? Where do you get your information? Have you polled all the players?

Comments like this are much weaker, because you can’t substantiate your point. It’s true you might be right, but you can’t know, and saying you do brings the entire post into question.

Ok – majority of ppl who answered in latest big topics related to the issue

Sure, because the majority of people playing don’t post on the forums. And while that’s not a “fact” the percentage of any population that does post has always been laughably small. Most who come to forums, come to complain.

So how can you count them as a majority?

Vayne.8563:

Most who come to forums, come to complain.

Not to be nitpicking, but that is also an unsupported assumption. You don’t have any data about the reasons why people come to those forums.

Gizmo.8623:

Vayne.8563:

It hasn’t evolved in the direction the majority of players like? What majority? Where do you get your information? Have you polled all the players?

Comments like this are much weaker, because you can’t substantiate your point. It’s true you might be right, but you can’t know, and saying you do brings the entire post into question.

Ok – majority of ppl who answered in latest big topics related to the issue

This is pretty much useless statistics to use since as Vayne says forums isn’t even used by half of GW2 playerbase and also if you read a “Anet sucks GW2 will fail” thread then you will see alot of disapointed players flocking around it and a few proud GW2 players defending it, but if you see threads like this one well it will be contrary.

In every game that has Forums there is always “doom and gloom” threads becouse if you are displeased you complain but if you are pleased you shut up and play, it is very rare that someone mentions if something is good.

I have played many MMO’s and been Fanboy to atleast two (This included) and I have always seen posts saying “This game is flawed, devs do nothing, I get no respons, Devs don’t care, I hate latest update, merge servers, the servers are empty and much more”

Anyway sorry for derailing…

Very well said OP, very much what I would say but I come from Lotro and not WoW and can do almost the same comparison.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Most who come to forums, come to complain.

Not to be nitpicking, but that is also an unsupported assumption. You don’t have any data about the reasons why people come to those forums.

Is it an unsupported assumption? I suggest we both do some research on human nature. When you put out cards that allow people to complain or compliment, those that complain are always in the majority. You can research that if you like.

On a more annecdotal note, I ran guildwarsforum.com when it was still around. And it died because negative posters, and there were only a few of them, drove positive posters off. People who enjoyed the game continued to enjoy the game. How do I know? Because many of them ended up in my guild.

But they didn’t post anymore? Why? Because it started to affect their enjoyment of the game.

Unsupported or not, I’ll let each person decide for themselves whether it’s true that most people who come to the forums come to complain.

But logic would dictate that if you’re enjoying the game, you have less reason to come to the forums.

This place pretty negative for people who are having a good time. I think anyone could see that.

Everything you have stated there is just your belief – even the “logic would dictate” part. It’s exactly as (un)supported as every other claim you attack on basis of no evidence. Please, use the same measure for your own posts as you use for the posts of other people.

Astralporing.1957:

Everything you have stated there is just your belief – even the “logic would dictate” part. It’s exactly as (un)supported as every other claim you attack on basis of no evidence. Please, use the same measure for your own posts as you use for the posts of other people.

It is 100% my belief that I’ve read psychological studies at some point during my research that said straight out that given a choice, more humans by percentage will complain about something than compliment it. That much I remember. Finding those studies now, at this point in time, that’s another matter.

It’s also not my belief that many many people left that other forum I moderated because of the amount of negativity they had to deal with. The people who don’t want to play, those not enjoying the game, have a place to vent here. Those enjoying the game have less reason to stay here and argue. Even I’m tired of it.

And even here, people have contacted me to tell me they’re not going to post as much because they’d rather be playing and enjoying the game.

Definite proof? Surely not. A decent reason for an educated guess. I think so.

I think its pretty easy to see that the majority of voices on the forums are whiners. Just look at the number of whiny posts and threads, versus the number of people complaining in game in map chat. In here its much more accepted by others, whereas in game the complainers are told to shut up. Its like in real life.. if somebody is complaining you might tell them to shut up, but you wouldn’t go into a room down the hall and tell a group of whiners to shut up, because its not worth the hassle. Like it or not, official forums are where people go to kitten. Anet was actually smart to allow official forums, because it keeps all the kittening in one place.

Tagus Eleuthera.7305:

I think its pretty easy to see that the majority of voices on the forums are whiners. Just look at the number of whiny posts and threads, versus the number of people complaining in game in map chat. In here its much more accepted by others, whereas in game the complainers are told to shut up. Its like in real life.. if somebody is complaining you might tell them to shut up, but you wouldn’t go into a room down the hall and tell a group of whiners to shut up, because its not worth the hassle. Like it or not, official forums are where people go to kitten. Anet was actually smart to allow official forums, because it keeps all the kittening in one place.

Also still on map chat… In my little group of friends 7 (Me included) only I would have been the one to answer and the six others would just have ignored the complainer.

kokiman.2364:

marnick.4305:

Indeed, OP sums it up neatly. End-game for WoW has two main parts:
1/ repeat the same boring tank&spank content
2/ wait until a patch destroys your character
rinse repeat

It’s not fun. GW2 is fun mostly because the gear progression is so shallow.

You can say whatever you want but those boss fights in WoW were awesome, I played WotlK and had to luck to participate in some ICC raids (the last raid tier in the expansion if I recall correctly) and I had so much fun with it. They really brought the whole “red circles are bad” thing to a new level, a level I would love to see in GW2.

The first time they were awesome, I totally agree. To do them a million times because those stupid shoulders won’t drop is another thing entirely. To have every encounter be a variation on the same shallow mechanic was ever more boring. Each expansion added insult to injury by removing all the gear I spent so much time collecting. After the third time I was completely done with that.

Vayne.8563:

It is 100% my belief that I’ve read psychological studies at some point during my research that said straight out that given a choice, more humans by percentage will complain about something than compliment it. That much I remember. Finding those studies now, at this point in time, that’s another matter.

Nothing to do with what you were claiming.

Vayne.8563:

It’s also not my belief that many many people left that other forum I moderated because of the amount of negativity they had to deal with.

Anectotal evidence. I have a lot of anecdotal evindences to the contrary. I’m not going to use those, because they are worth about as much as yours (meaning – not much)

The people who don’t want to play, those not enjoying the game, have a place to vent here.

Those people mostly don’t vent here, for the simple reason that they have left this game long ago.

Those enjoying the game have less reason to stay here and argue.

This, the core of your argument, is the unsupported belief i was talking about earlier.

Vayne.8563:

And even here, people have contacted me to tell me they’re not going to post as much because they’d rather be playing and enjoying the game.

Again, anecdotal evidence that doesn’t actually prove anything. As you are very fast to point out anytime someone mentions their guild friends that are unhappy with the state of the game yet do not post here.

Vayne.8563:

Definite proof? Surely not. A decent reason for an educated guess. I think so.

Yes. You think. Belief again.

Basically, if you are going to shoot down everyone that bases their assumptions on their feelings and what they seem is an educated guess, then you should not base your arguments on equally unsubstantiated claims.

I have tried MMO’s that just went F2P or new F2P. GW2 is like a cozy bed I want to come back to. I have now given up dipping my toes in other worlds.Unless something comes along that knocks all our socks off.

Until then my 6 alts will be doing their own thing here.

Astralporing.1957:

Everything you have stated there is just your belief – even the “logic would dictate” part. It’s exactly as (un)supported as every other claim you attack on basis of no evidence. Please, use the same measure for your own posts as you use for the posts of other people.

It’s well documented that in business, when a customer receives, in their opinion, bad service, they will tell an average of 8-10 people. When a customer receives, in their opinion, great service, they tell an average of 2-3 people. Extrapolate that out, how you want, but the way I read it is people just expect “good service” and go out of their way to make sure everyone knows they received “bad service”.

How does this apply? Well, it’s not much of a leap to assume that the game’s own forum makes an excellent place to vent people’s perceived bad service, and thus the forums would skew toward the negative. Read any restaurant or hotel’s comment box, or online profile. The ratio of bad comments to good comments nearly always average out to 3 to 1, given a large enough sample size. It’s just life. Most folks don’t give much positive feedback beyond continuing to use the service.

And before you ask, I have a degree in business management. I’m not just making this kitten up.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

It is 100% my belief that I’ve read psychological studies at some point during my research that said straight out that given a choice, more humans by percentage will complain about something than compliment it. That much I remember. Finding those studies now, at this point in time, that’s another matter.

Nothing to do with what you were claiming.

Vayne.8563:

It’s also not my belief that many many people left that other forum I moderated because of the amount of negativity they had to deal with.

Anectotal evidence. I have a lot of anecdotal evindences to the contrary. I’m not going to use those, because they are worth about as much as yours (meaning – not much)

The people who don’t want to play, those not enjoying the game, have a place to vent here.

Those people mostly don’t vent here, for the simple reason that they have left this game long ago.

Those enjoying the game have less reason to stay here and argue.

This, the core of your argument, is the unsupported belief i was talking about earlier.

Vayne.8563:

And even here, people have contacted me to tell me they’re not going to post as much because they’d rather be playing and enjoying the game.

Again, anecdotal evidence that doesn’t actually prove anything. As you are very fast to point out anytime someone mentions their guild friends that are unhappy with the state of the game yet do not post here.

Vayne.8563:

Definite proof? Surely not. A decent reason for an educated guess. I think so.

Yes. You think. Belief again.

Basically, if you are going to shoot down everyone that bases their assumptions on their feelings and what they seem is an educated guess, then you should not base your arguments on equally unsubstantiated claims.

If you can find 2 active MMO forums for any MMO that aren’t mostly negative, more power to you. Any active MMO forum tends toward negativity. The ones that tend NOT to negativity are the games no one plays anymore, because everyone who still plays is a fan of that game. The games that are popular, tend to have negative forums. If you don’t believe me, go and look. I’ve yet to see one forum for a popular MMO that wasn’t negative. And since those MMOs are popular, it stands to reason someone likes them.

Sure it’s annecdotal evidence, but I’m pretty sure most people who have spent a lot of time on MMO forums would agree most of them are cesspools. Does that mean most people don’t like most MMOs? Maybe.

But you can believe what you want.

Klawlyt.6507:

Astralporing.1957:

Everything you have stated there is just your belief – even the “logic would dictate” part. It’s exactly as (un)supported as every other claim you attack on basis of no evidence. Please, use the same measure for your own posts as you use for the posts of other people.

It’s well documented that in business, when a customer receives, in their opinion, bad service, they will tell an average of 8-10 people. When a customer receives, in their opinion, great service, they tell an average of 2-3 people. Extrapolate that out, how you want, but the way I read it is people just expect “good service” and go out of their way to make sure everyone knows they received “bad service”.

How does this apply? Well, it’s not much of a leap to assume that the game’s own forum makes an excellent place to vent people’s perceived bad service, and thus the forums would skew toward the negative. Read any restaurant or hotel’s comment box, or online profile. The ratio of bad comments to good comments nearly always average out to 3 to 1, given a large enough sample size. It’s just life. Most folks don’t give much positive feedback beyond continuing to use the service.

And before you ask, I have a degree in business management. I’m not just making this kitten up.

I managed a computer store, we had feedback cards. Most of our customers were satisifed…probably upwards of 80%, but 90% of the people who filled out feedback cards used them to complain.

It was a tiny percentage of our client base, though.

Vayne.8563:

It hasn’t evolved in the direction the majority of players like? What majority? Where do you get your information? Have you polled all the players?

Comments like this are much weaker, because you can’t substantiate your point. It’s true you might be right, but you can’t know, and saying you do brings the entire post into question.

Funny, I remember saying the same stuff to you not too long ago. But I will gladly agree with you. Any one who quotes majorities without actual reliable figures is not telling the truth. People should say “what I think” instead of “most people think”. Would make discussions a lot more honest in my view.

GW2 is definitely different in some ways from other MMOs that are out there. I never played WoW so I can’t comment on that but the it is a bit like a double edged sword. On the one hand you don’t have the traditional trinity and gear treadmill….on the other hand it can also cause people to find the game uninteresting because of it. Every person will have their own preferences with regards to that, but I will say that once I’ve done things in this game like world completion, doing all jumping puzzles and such, I just don’t feel like doing that again.

I played the game again for three weeks…enough to level a new toon to 80 and tried to level a second one…but got bored at level 11 again. I got full exotics on my level 80 and a neat GS that I wanted but after doing some champion runs I am just…what now?

It was fun leveling a toon but I had to stay away from the game for 8 months to enjoy it again and endgame is still very much lacking for me. So, hey, more power to you if you can keep yourself busy in this game for hours and hours but I really don’t get it.

Sure the age old formula that WoW represents needs help and there is not doubt it also has drawbacks. I guess I see GW2 as an interesting attempt to do something different but for me it wasn’t quite that successful.

I am sure you won’t mind if stop playing (and posting again) in the very near future. I don’t think this game was a waste of money for me ( I played hundreds of hours in the first couple of months) but to me it plays kinda like a RPG that I’ve finished and just wanted to pick up again, just to give it another run through and now that my new toon is 80 and geared up, it feels like I’m done again. But hey that’s ok, plenty more games to play. Just bit sad still because I enjoyed GW1 so much and really wanted to like GW2 just as much.

Zayd Akira.1942:

In guild wars one, you leveled to 20 (20 was top level) and that was just about when the game had began, PvE or otherwise. by the time i was level 20 in the PvE stories, i would be about 10% done with the story, maybe less.

Going to correct this part here. Only in Factions and Nightfall did you level super fast like this, In Prophecies, if you played it linearly (without power leveling and such) you weren’t level 20 until you were closer to the end – right around the time you ascended or got to Droks. After which there were 4 (might have been 5, been so long since I played Proph) missions in the Southern Shiverpeaks, and 3 in the Fire Islands.

Prophecies leveling was very similar to the leveling we see here in GW2…spread out across the whole game, in sync with the story experience. The only real difference between them is that we aren’t unlocking / hunting for skills all the way through.

Hopefully when they release expansion content in the future, it will be for lvl 80s, and not require additional leveling (similar to bringing existing Prophecies characters into the new ‘main’ Factions or Nightfall content, which was intended for lvl 20 chars).

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Most who come to forums, come to complain.

Not to be nitpicking, but that is also an unsupported assumption. You don’t have any data about the reasons why people come to those forums.

Actually no, he has a point, and its a statistically supported fact is you go google it. Generally speaking mostly those with complaints tend to fill out comment cards, or leave internet reviews on items, or visit forums. This is because they wish to be vocal about their dissatisfaction, while typical happy customers simply go about their business. Of course, just looking at the majority of posts and their responses around the forum would support his statement, even without googling the statistical analysis.

I played two quite unknown MMORPGs for a long time quite intensely: Dekaron for 3 years and Atlantica Online for nearly 4 years. Both are typical Korean ftp games, with the one great exception that Atlantica Online is turn-based. Both games had great concepts but what drove me away was the gear progression (roughly the same OP experienced in WoW) – and the outright rogueish behaviour of the publisher regarding the item mall.

GW2 avoids both pitfalls. Especially the item shop is very decent. They go to every length to prevent pay to win, making best in slot gear easily available in game.

That alone would hold me here. Add to that the beauty of the graphics and the amount of labour ArenaNet invests in new content (even though I don’t like everything about it), and for me the result is a great package of entertainment for my money.

I will stay for a long time if ArenaNet continues to perform like this.

We need a more consistent content, that’s all. Because the game itself is very good. ArenaNet will give us new races, new skills, new traits, new areas, new bosses, new elder dragons.

I just don’t like LS ‘cause I don’t have the time to explore the whole content. Hate this “temporary content”. But in other ways, it’s easier to focus on somethings reachable (or almost).