Guild Wars 2

I’d been a big fan of Guild Wars, even though I only got into the game later in its life. People often say that Guild Wars was a “different” MMO, but it really wasn’t. It employed precisely the same general formula as any MMO you’re likely to play. It’s differences were largely shallow. Even the removal of the the levelling curve simply “hid” a grind that still existed. Just because something isn’t visually represented doesn’t mean it’s not there. It did however limit things down, and focused the experience around particular components of what makes an MMO. To be honest, I think it’s telling that whilst ArenaNet referred to Guild Wars as a Co-RPG, most everyone else refers to it as an MMO. For all of that though it felt like it was TRYING to be different, and that gave me the impression that with Guild Wars 2 – and the 5 years of development that went into it – ArenaNet would break the mould and reinvigorate a genre that has been stagnating under the shadow of World of Warcraft for the past eight years.

That’s isn’t the case.

For all the ArenaNet say about Guild Wars 2 being “different” and being “genre defining”, it is still very much the same MMO many of us have played before. It has quests, even if they are hidden behind heart icons and “dynamic events”. It’s got stats, and gear progression, and tiers, and dungeons… and grinding. Endless, tedious, boring, unimaginative grinding. It’s just another MMO.

I’m not going to talk about everything in the game, obviously, but there are two things I’d specifically like to mention:

Heart quests: These are quests. They use the same iterative mechanics as any quest you’re going to find in any other game. Simply by given players 1-3 ways of completing a quest does not negate its status as a quest. You go to a heart quest, you grind out whatever it is it wants you to grind out (with each subsequent quest finding new and more annoying ways to obstruct you from the goal), and then you get experience. Often you will find that the heart quest will direct you to a “dynamic event”…

Dynamic events: These are also quests, and often quest chains. In other MMOs you may find yourself directed to go somewhere to do something, and upon returning you are given another quest, etc, etc. The quest chain tells a story, sometimes quite a compelling story (for all of its faults, SWTOR often did quest chains very well). In Guild Wars 2, dynamic events fill that gap. They vary it slightly by having the quests start where you are, but they are simply a chain of quests. The ONLY difference is in the “multiple lines”, which invariably just means that if you fail, you have to kill mobs in a different location to where you would have had to kill them if you’d succeeded.

I think that pretty much sums up my problem with Guild Wars 2, and why I stopped playing the game. Quite simply, it just another MMO. The lack of subscription fee does not excuse poor, lacklustre content, and the few genuinely interesting and exciting mechanics do not prop up an other standard grindy MMO affair. Grinding isn’t fun. I played Borderlands 2 and Torchlight 2 over the weekend, and had more fun in 20 minutes than I’d had in an MMO since I started playing World of Warcraft. Every MMO I’ve played since WoW has been… well… WoW. Even Guild Wars 2.

The reason I stopped playing Guild Wars 2 is as follows: it’s a game that would be complicit in the stagnation of the MMO genre, veiling it behind a sea of shallow alterations to a tired formula that needs changing.

I personally think that stripping the classes down to such a shockingly small number of skills doesn’t help either. After GW1 where you had such flexibility in building your character, it was very jarring to be so heavily restricted in GW2. I can’t think of another mmo with so little in the way of character progression. It’s nuts.

Good post though, they promised revolution and did not deliver.

“it’s a game that would be complicit in the stagnation of the MMO genre, veiling it behind a sea of shallow alterations to a tired formula that needs changing.” – Very well said.

Good post. Well outlined.

As far as WoW clones go, it’s a pretty good one and feels like an update to WoW but free to play. It even has largely the same races.

Still, the incredible lack of thought that went into the skill system (from the inability to pick and choose skills to the lack of an auto attack on things like the bomb kit and environmental weapons) is discouraging me.

While I’m not going to stop playing I will say I largely agree with you. This was sold as a game that’s moving away from being told to bring back 10 wolf pelts to being told I have a choice to bring back 10 wolf pelts, 25 wolf teeth or 40 wolf toe-nails. In either scenario you’re still grinding quests one just explicitly says it. My biggest disappointment was the hype leading up to this that decisions I make are going to change my world. I (and many, many others as evidenced by the BWE forums) took this to mean that somehow our “world” was going to be instanced outside of major city hubs where if I chose to ignore saving a small town that it would be destroyed forever. Now if I ignore it the town is destroyed and 10 minutes later it’s been rebuilt only for the same centaurs to raid it again. There are zero decisions that change my world anywhere.

I like GW2 and having fun.

EnaiSiaion.8072:

As far as WoW clones go, it’s a pretty good one and feels like an update to WoW but free to play. It even has largely the same races.

I think that’s a big problem personally. The way you worded that highlights one of the issues beautifully.

It SHOULDN’T be a case of saying, “is this game a good WoW clone?” It shouldn’t even be a case of going, “is this game a good WoW update?”. We don’t really do that in any other genre outside of a handful of titles, and yet the opposite seems true in the MMO space. Max Schaefer from Runic said a couple of days ago that the team their have little to no intention of making an MMO out of Torchlight next. One of the reasons he gave was that they didn’t just want to make “another MMO”, and that he felt that every MMO that’s been coming out in recent years (and even before that, imho) are all just a little bit too similar.

I think it’s appalling that MMO developers and designers are happy to work in a space where the vast majority of titles are defined by their similarities, and not by their differences.

I stopped playing GW2 because I can’t change the dye of my armor with my purchased dye bundle out crashing.

Anonymous.6935:

Absolutely agree. Just be happy that you can atleast get your moneys worth out of it, but quite obviously won’t be a game that you’d continue to play much thereafter say around 200 hours of actual gameplay, or maybe less, just depends when you hit level 80 really.
Still it’s good value for money in the games popular months, shame it’s going to be going the way of other poor MMO’s so quickly though!

I can see what people are saying with the value for money thing, but I think it’s cognitive dissonance personally :P

Guild Wars 2’s value is – for me at least – defined by what it says on the box, and the value the developer instils in the game with the statements they make about it. An MMO is supposed to offer a persistent experience that you can return to, and enjoy on an on going basis. ArenaNet valued the hundreds of hours of content, not just the “getting to 80 grind” but everything in addition, at the price they set. Do I feel I got the implied and stated value out of the title? No. That means that, for me, it wasn’t worth the money.

I dunno if i agree OP. I am not a fan of how GW2 turned out, but im not quite sure where you’re getting at. If this is the tired MMO formula, what is this revolutionary formula you are talking about? It sounds like alot of complaining for the sake of complaning. And RPG is an RPG, there is no way around it.
SWTOR is more RPG than every other MMORPG because of story, but besides that i dont know what you could possibly mean. Actually, thinking about it SWTOR gives you a shooter aswell in there, wich people love to hate on.

I agree with OP mostly.

I am a huge Guild Wars fan, had it since day of release in the UK and loved every minute of it (was my first MMO, before finding others, but still love it). But this sequel… I hate to say it, feels much watered down. Content instead replaced by “look how beautiful everything is”.

Its disappointing to be told not to rush through content. But woah, dont take that comment on face value. I love seeing the sights in Guild Wars 2. Im overwhelmed by how much detail is in everything. From the sights and sounds of Divinity’s Reach to the rebuilt Lions Arch.

The Black Citadel to the Grove and beyond, to Orr… its all fantastic… but, to deliberately enforce a structure of gameplay that forces you to “enjoy” these sights more? Nah, sorry, I dont like that. This creates problems. If players want to grind (i dont) their way through areas, let them, they wont be able to go to areas above their level because they will be dominated by the enemies there.

Skills? Heh, yeah, Anet should take a leaf from their own book of Guild Wars 1… theres nothing here, only a few weapon skills and unlock-able skill point skills… it offers the bare minimum choice, hidden behind a “no holy trinity” justification which in todays competitive MMO market holds little ground.

I feel as an explorer, a player in general and a Guild Wars fan, that this game doesnt feel like a Guild Wars game. It feels, empty. It feels like a concept, not a game.

Additionally, most complaints i’ve seen on the forums are actually valid. This worries me. The community I experienced in GW 1 was, for the most part, stress free and easy going. There were issues sure, but we loved the game…

In this instance however, its a tone of frustration that the game doesn’t feel like its living up to its predecessors standards.

I remember listening to dev interviews and the “how GW2 will be different” trailer was AMAZING… but… its not living up to that I feel.

Bugs that go beyond launch title glitches like the entire region of Orr having all DE’s bugged so they cant be completed? Rollbacks that get ONLY a twitter response as an apology… “sorry for the inconvenience”… done, everyone’s happy now right?

I expected so much more and to a higher standard. I will continue playing, and this isnt a rant. I know how to play etc etc. I am familiar with MMO concepts etc etc. I dont play WoW so this isnt a comparison.

Also, I dont want to sound ungrateful. This game IS amazing, but, at its core,, the game needs a lot of tweaking to bring it upto the quality Gw 1 that players demand, having played the original.

Edit: I respect Anet more than words can describe for TRYING to do something new, but they fell short of greatness by a gnats wing… it would take just a few alterations to make this game an experience… but I think too many people will refuse to accept this fact.

I disagree with the OP. I’ve definitely gotten my monies worth out of the game. And I believe that it is different enough from the other games out there. Yes there are similarities but the fact that they bring all the good things into one game is what makes it special.
Personally, I’m glad they don’t have phased zones like WoW had because that made it a pain if you needed to get someone to help you. You couldn’t because they weren’t at the same point in progression so they couldn’t even see your character at times. While the changes you make in GW2 aren’t permanent, at least it doesn’t prevent you from playing with others.

One thing you seem to be forgetting. Renown Hearts are not quests.

In other MMOs, Quest are your source of experience when it comes to leveling. The bulk of your experience comes from doing quests and the mobs you have to kill for those quests. When you go to a quest hub, you pick up say 5-6 quests. Go kill 10 of this, go collect 10 of this, go talk to this person, etc. Now you go kill those mobs which give you a lot of experience, and you turn in those quests for even more experience. This is how you progress in other MMOs.

Renown Hearts on the other hand, are not reliable sources of experience. Neither are the mobs you have to kill. It is not a viable way of leveling up. They are guides to lead you to Dynamic Events. When you reach a Renown Heart, it has options for you to complete it. Go kill 10 of this, collect 10 of this, etc etc like before. But when you go do those objectives, the experience you earn is barely enough to progress. Even after you finish the Renown Heart, you are rewarded barely any experience for it.

So no, Renown Hearts are not comparable to questing in other MMOs. They are not your source of experience like quests are in other MMOs. They are guides to lead you to Dynamic Events, with tasks to do along the way. They offer a sub par reward which isn’t enough to progress with, unlike questing in traditional MMOs where the reward is plenty enough to progress.

Nemmar.8491:

I dunno if i agree OP. I am not a fan of how GW2 turned out, but im not quite sure where you’re getting at. If this is the tired MMO formula, what is this revolutionary formula you are talking about? It sounds like alot of complaining for the sake of complaning. And RPG is an RPG, there is no way around it.

SWTOR is more RPG than every other MMORPG because of story, but besides that i dont know what you could possibly mean. Actually, thinking about it SWTOR gives you a shooter aswell in there, wich people love to hate on.

I was waiting for someone to come in and make this point ;D

The example you use is “An(d) RPG is an RPG.” OK, you’re right. There are certain elements that have been part of RPGs since time immemorial, but those elements do not define the entirety of the RPG genre. Compare Baldur’s Gate 2 to Mass Effect. Compare The Witcher 2 to Fallout. Compare Final Fantasy to Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. The greatest and best RPGs are defined by their differences, not their similarities. I can play one modern RPG – like Mass Effect 3 – and move to another modern RPG – like The Witcher 2 – and have a very distinct experience. The systems in place – the actual mechanics of those games – bear a vague resemblance, but they’re also very different RPGs that approach the idea of an RPG in different ways. Of course there are some places where these titles “meet and greet”, but there are many areas where they don’t. Those differences aren’t limited to shallow alterations – of which there are some – on the “established RPG formula”. Those differences are right at the heart of those games, right at the very beginning.

An RPG now is very different to what an RPG was a decade ago. The same can’t be said of the majority of MMOs, including Guild Wars 2.

In addition to that, the presentation is very important. Simply layering over a new paint job and moving stuff around slightly isn’t very imaginative, and it doesn’t alter the dynamic of the game in any way. I’m still playing the same old MMORPG.

I can think of numerous ways the MMO formula could be diversified and cracked open, and I’d happily share those with you on another forum elsewhere. This discussion however is about the weaknesses I see in Guild Wars 2.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

One thing you seem to be forgetting. Renown Hearts are not quests.

In other MMOs, Quest are your source of experience when it comes to leveling. The bulk of your experience comes from doing quests and the mobs you have to kill for those quests. When you go to a quest hub, you pick up say 5-6 quests. Go kill 10 of this, go collect 10 of this, go talk to this person, etc. Now you go kill those mobs which give you a lot of experience, and you turn in those quests for even more experience. This is how you progress in other MMOs.

Renown Hearts on the other hand, are not reliable sources of experience. Neither are the mobs you have to kill. It is not a viable way of leveling up. They are guides to lead you to Dynamic Events. When you reach a Renown Heart, it has options for you to complete it. Go kill 10 of this, collect 10 of this, etc etc like before. But when you go do those objectives, the experience you earn is barely enough to progress. Even after you finish the Renown Heart, you are rewarded barely any experience for it.

So no, Renown Hearts are not comparable to questing in other MMOs. They are not your source of experience like quests are in other MMOs. They are guides to lead you to Dynamic Events, with tasks to do along the way. They offer a sub par reward which isn’t enough to progress with, unlike questing in traditional MMOs where the reward is plenty enough to progress.

I’m sorry but… there are quests in other MMOs that fill this purpose as well There are courier quests, and “go speak to this person” quests layered in that fill precisely the same purpose, and offer diminished rewards for exactly the same reasons: because they’re simply guide quests.

So yes, Renown Hearts are quests.

MrThebigcheese.2014:

I personally think that stripping the classes down to such a shockingly small number of skills doesn’t help either. After GW1 where you had such flexibility in building your character, it was very jarring to be so heavily restricted in GW2. I can’t think of another mmo with so little in the way of character progression. It’s nuts.

Good post though, they promised revolution and did not deliver.

“it’s a game that would be complicit in the stagnation of the MMO genre, veiling it behind a sea of shallow alterations to a tired formula that needs changing.” – Very well said.

The small amount of skills is still something I haven’t really been able to get used to. I didn’t think it would bother me, but it does. The tradeoffs for taking one thing over another make it feel too restrictive.

As for the rest, I agree with you, OP. As far as PVE goes, not much different to see. Beautiful game, though. They got the world down solid. But it’s still a typical MMO kill this, fetch that, be that other NPC’s gopher grind. Boring. I love WvW, though. For me, that is different.

Great post… honestly I may wait another year and then see how it is after a few updates and expansions….So maybe Aug 2013 lol Ill try again….

Still none the less….I played GW1 almost since launch….I loved it.

THis game is good but has so much potential that I feel this game will be lost into obscurity like so many other “game changing” MMO’s before it… or…it dont have to….IF the Devs can do something, make changes, fix stuff they may have a chance. Like I said though…time will tell.

From GW1 to this I am saddened, The PVE is better then 1 of course but that is all they focused on…WvWvW is a Zerg fest regardless of how you look at it, It can be an organized or dis organized zerg fest… cant argue that…or it is a boring run with a group of friends through an empty borderlands (red green or blue word) taking post from NPC’s….

My biggest dissapointment in this game is sPVP…this part of the game got a giant kitten shoved into it from the Devs aspect…or thats how it looks to me…. Its all the same…capture points.
The lobby is a joke with that terrible browser list, payed tournies get pointless after a while and so on….these is no structered GvG (ppl say WvWvW is for guilds…no its not once again a zerg fest) like in GW1, no arena style events, no capture flags or any other mode…its sad.

That is my reasoning and opnion, Im still a Mega fan boy…but a dissapointed one.

Yes Yes I know..game is new. Thats why I will give it a year or so to see how it is by this time 2013.

I largely disagree with the OP, greatly and utterly.

This game is similar to WoW in the way that it’s an MMO and that you level up. The dynamic events are by far, much different than going to do a quest, reading the text, and collecting 10 boar hides, and turning them in. The events all have a story to tell, through interactive playing, not by reading.

Heart quests are similar to quests, but nothing alike. You don’t even have to usually do the heart quests in the same way you would do a normal quest, because as I’ve noticed, there are always events going on during the heart quests, which allow you to do them without even having to talk to the people. They are FAR more interactive and fun than just collecting boar hides.

The heart quests are simply just guides to show you where events take place, that’s all they’re meant for—if you’re using them to level up, then I would have to say you’re looking at them for all the wrong reasons.

I agree. When my first character hit 80 I realized there was not much fun to do in this game. I did enjoy playing on teams in the dungeons, but anet killed those. So I been logging in wondering how I can have any more fun in this game (have not found it and have no faith that anet will provide it after what they did to the dungeons). Anybody know another game I can try? This one is done.

indelible.6981:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

One thing you seem to be forgetting. Renown Hearts are not quests.

In other MMOs, Quest are your source of experience when it comes to leveling. The bulk of your experience comes from doing quests and the mobs you have to kill for those quests. When you go to a quest hub, you pick up say 5-6 quests. Go kill 10 of this, go collect 10 of this, go talk to this person, etc. Now you go kill those mobs which give you a lot of experience, and you turn in those quests for even more experience. This is how you progress in other MMOs.

Renown Hearts on the other hand, are not reliable sources of experience. Neither are the mobs you have to kill. It is not a viable way of leveling up. They are guides to lead you to Dynamic Events. When you reach a Renown Heart, it has options for you to complete it. Go kill 10 of this, collect 10 of this, etc etc like before. But when you go do those objectives, the experience you earn is barely enough to progress. Even after you finish the Renown Heart, you are rewarded barely any experience for it.

So no, Renown Hearts are not comparable to questing in other MMOs. They are not your source of experience like quests are in other MMOs. They are guides to lead you to Dynamic Events, with tasks to do along the way. They offer a sub par reward which isn’t enough to progress with, unlike questing in traditional MMOs where the reward is plenty enough to progress.

I’m sorry but… there are quests in other MMOs that fill this purpose as well There are courier quests, and “go speak to this person” quests layered in that fill precisely the same purpose, and offer diminished rewards for exactly the same reasons: because they’re simply guide quests.

So yes, Renown Hearts are quests.

So because they resemble one type of quest in another MMO, means they are instantly just like every quest in another MMO? Like I said before. Questing in another MMO IS your source of experience when it comes to leveling. Renown Hearts in GW2, are NOT your source of experience when it comes to leveling. They serve different purposes.

In GW2, Renown Hearts are there to lead you to events happening in the world. They don’t provide you with sufficient experience to be considered viable for leveling off. Unlike questing in other MMOs that your main source of experience is from questing.

vehemently disagreeing with OP right now. all GW2 needs is more PVE content (like any other MMO), tweaks to DE scaling, and an esports package (replay tools, ranks, etc.). the game is awesome and i havent been able to stop playing for4 weeks now.

i am lvl 34 right now i started in the 3 day headstart it is fun for me people need to forget wow and stop comparing to wow this is a different style/type of game

im havin fun and see myself playin along time

Noxu.7203:

I largely disagree with the OP, greatly and utterly.

This game is similar to WoW in the way that it’s an MMO and that you level up. The dynamic events are by far, much different than going to do a quest, reading the text, and collecting 10 boar hides, and turning them in. The events all have a story to tell, through interactive playing, not by reading.

Like the many VOd quest chains in games like Star Trek Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Star Wars The Old Republic, etc? Quests that tell precisely the same style of story. “Oh no, the village is being attacked! Go outside and grind the centaurs for a bit!” Vs “Oh no, the village is being attacked! Stay inside and grind the centaurs for a bit!” Dynamic Events are just like normal quest chains, but hugely more inconvenient.

Instead of collecting 10 board hides, you’ll kill 10 waves of boars. And then, instead of killing the Elite Boar in the last quest in the chain, you’ll kill the Champion Boar at the end of the event. Very different. I can see precisely what you mean.

Noxu.7203:

Heart quests are similar to quests, but nothing alike. You don’t even have to usually do the heart quests in the same way you would do a normal quest, because as I’ve noticed, there are always events going on during the heart quests, which allow you to do them without even having to talk to the people. They are FAR more interactive and fun than just collecting boar hides.

Yes, so much more interactive and fun that you can either collect boar hides, or boar snouts, or boar ears.

Just because you give me 3 ways to kill a boar doesn’t alter the fact that I’m still killing a boar. And after killing boars in so many different ways before, you should really be looking at ways of getting me to do stuff that doesn’t involve killing boars. And that doesn’t include spawning more boars in a large orange circle. That’s a mataphor, btw.

The heart quests are simply just guides to show you where events take place, that’s all they’re meant for—if you’re using them to level up, then I would have to say you’re looking at them for all the wrong reasons.

Like… the quests in other games that serve exactly the same purpose, and reward negligible experience? :s

indelible.6981:

Nemmar.8491:

I dunno if i agree OP. I am not a fan of how GW2 turned out, but im not quite sure where you’re getting at. If this is the tired MMO formula, what is this revolutionary formula you are talking about? It sounds like alot of complaining for the sake of complaning. And RPG is an RPG, there is no way around it.

SWTOR is more RPG than every other MMORPG because of story, but besides that i dont know what you could possibly mean. Actually, thinking about it SWTOR gives you a shooter aswell in there, wich people love to hate on.

I was waiting for someone to come in and make this point ;D

The example you use is “An(d) RPG is an RPG.” OK, you’re right. There are certain elements that have been part of RPGs since time immemorial, but those elements do not define the entirety of the RPG genre. Compare Baldur’s Gate 2 to Mass Effect. Compare The Witcher 2 to Fallout. Compare Final Fantasy to Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. The greatest and best RPGs are defined by their differences, not their similarities. I can play one modern RPG – like Mass Effect 3 – and move to another modern RPG – like The Witcher 2 – and have a very distinct experience. The systems in place – the actual mechanics of those games – bear a vague resemblance, but they’re also very different RPGs that approach the idea of an RPG in different ways. Of course there are some places where these titles “meet and greet”, but there are many areas where they don’t. Those differences aren’t limited to shallow alterations – of which there are some – on the “established RPG formula”. Those differences are right at the heart of those games, right at the very beginning.

An RPG now is very different to what an RPG was a decade ago. The same can’t be said of the majority of MMOs, including Guild Wars 2.

In addition to that, the presentation is very important. Simply layering over a new paint job and moving stuff around slightly isn’t very imaginative, and it doesn’t alter the dynamic of the game in any way. I’m still playing the same old MMORPG.

I can think of numerous ways the MMO formula could be diversified and cracked open, and I’d happily share those with you on another forum elsewhere. This discussion however is about the weaknesses I see in Guild Wars 2.

But that is your whole point isnt it? There are many formulas that were tested and failed already. Most daring case, the third person shooter, Tabula Rasa tanked bad. The more action oriented like DC universe and TERA arent doing too well. The thing the games you mentioned have in common is storyline, to wich 1 million player scoffed at SWTOR for having done (but i like it alot), the one thing they all have different is the combat system. All those games have a questing system, with more or less story. Funnily enough Final fantasy is the only one that doesnt unless you consider FFXI.

I still dont see exactly where you want this genre to go. I completely agree that DE’s are just a different way to present quests that quickly wears out, but there is no way around a questing system. The only other option is not having one, and that leads to grinding, wich is killing mobs with minimal reward. Koreans seem to be hot on that, but westerners dont seem to be.

So if Heart quests aren’t the actual source of experience and DE’s are, why is the DE system in each zone so poorly thought out. The only way you know a DE is active is if you either start it or are fortunate enough to be close to have it pop. I’m in Snowden Drifts right now and just had a DE to escort a dolyak. I walk this dolyak all the way and get my XP/karma reward. Literally, as soon as I’m done it starts over again. “Fun” and experience towards leveling comes from repeating this again? Also, there could be some champion DE that I may never know pops because I’m just unlucky enough to be too far away. Should I just randomly bounce from waypoint to waypoint and hope to hit one? Or I guess I could spam chat and ask the map if DE’s are happening anywhere. If anything I would support that anytime a DE is occurring on a map that every player on the map is given the orange circle assuming they’ve completed the prerequisite to actually start the quest. This would at least give me the option of participating.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

So because they resemble one type of quest in another MMO, means they are instantly just like every quest in another MMO? Like I said before. Questing in another MMO IS your source of experience when it comes to leveling. Renown Hearts in GW2, are NOT your source of experience when it comes to leveling. They serve different purposes.

In GW2, Renown Hearts are there to lead you to events happening in the world. They don’t provide you with sufficient experience to be considered viable for leveling off. Unlike questing in other MMOs that your main source of experience is from questing.

I’m sorry but… your argument is that Renown Hearts aren’t quests because they reward negligible experience.

They’re functionally almost identical to quests in any other MMO, ASIDE from the lack of experience. They have you pursuing the same game play. AT BEST… they’ve managed to roll up courier and grind quests into a single, neat, little package.

You’re making a really weak case for the difference between Renown Hearts and quests right now. I hope you know that ;P

OP, how would you improve PVE for an MMO, without making it a sandbox? ANet has pushed the themepark to its max, and i love questing/exploring in Tyria. to me it just sounds like youre burned out from MMO’s in general.

I liked leveling up but now theres nothing to do but grind same events over and over in pve. Or play dungeons that are imo bad in sense that bosses are either very easy or so op that they 1 shot your whole group, but I wont get in to it. WvW is not fun if you are alone or running with a zerg maybe it would be ok with a guild but then knowing me I wouldnt be able to dedicate to that too much.

spvp 8v8 is bad dont want to explain go read spvp forum
tpvp is ok but you need to get 5 people and organisation and so on then trolling

I would like it so much if this could be the game that I like to play but I simply find my self playing Smite more than gw2 and I alredy played 500 games in smite and still like it.

Reason why I like Smite pvp more than gw2 is that it has real structure real goals GW2 looks like a big glory grind nothing else

From my understanding of indelible, and what he wants is….

no events, no heart quests, no levels?

I /think/ you’re playing the wrong type of game, if you don’t want that.

Do you want to just roam around the world and just attack things without cause or reason? Or do you want to have GW2 focus on a lack of killing or doing anything? I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at, to be honest.

If you say there isn’t enough variety in the dynamic events or heart quests, I could prove you wrong. There was an event in Ebonhawke where we were tasked with getting a large group of animals back to their cage by bull-whipping them.

Kessex Hill had a heart quest where you turn into a big and sniff about for truffles.

Saving prisoners from the Krait is another one event. Collecting items that lay about and returning them to the event host is yet another idea that comes to mind.

So again, maybe I’m just not understanding what you want… whether it be more variety (which honestly, in my opinion, there’s already a /lot/ of variety for events and heart quests), or you don’t want them at all, all together—which, in the end, would lead to grinding enemies over and over for no apparent reason whatsoever.

nerva.7940:

OP, how would you improve PVE for an MMO, without making it a sandbox? ANet has pushed the themepark to its max, and i love questing/exploring in Tyria. to me it just sounds like youre burned out from MMO’s in general.

There many things I could say in response to this, but I’m not going to go down that road. I don’t make MMOs. I am a consumer. If I were to design MMOs, I would certainly spend a great amount of my time considering how current quest mechanics, current vertical and linear progression, could be done away with in favour of other systems, as well as look at other ways of presenting the “massively” aspect of MMOs.

indelible.6981:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

So because they resemble one type of quest in another MMO, means they are instantly just like every quest in another MMO? Like I said before. Questing in another MMO IS your source of experience when it comes to leveling. Renown Hearts in GW2, are NOT your source of experience when it comes to leveling. They serve different purposes.

In GW2, Renown Hearts are there to lead you to events happening in the world. They don’t provide you with sufficient experience to be considered viable for leveling off. Unlike questing in other MMOs that your main source of experience is from questing.

I’m sorry but… your argument is that Renown Hearts aren’t quests because they reward negligible experience.

They’re functionally almost identical to quests in any other MMO, ASIDE from the lack of experience. They have you pursuing the same game play. AT BEST… they’ve managed to roll up courier and grind quests into a single, neat, little package.

You’re making a really weak case for the difference between Renown Hearts and quests right now. I hope you know that ;P

lol not really a weak argument, it is just you aren’t seeing the big picture and only looking down through a scope of what you want it to be and not what it is.

Sure they have similar objectives. You collect a bunch of quests in a quest hub, and go kill 10 of this and go collect 10 of this. Then turn them in for your xp. You go to the area of a Heart and kill 10 of this and collect 10 of this. Then you get rewarded some xp.

But what you seem to be missing is, Hearts are not your main source of progression. In other MMOs, quests are your main source of progression. In order to get the best xp while leveling, you have to do quests to progress. In GW2, Hearts are not your main source of progression. In order to get the best xp while leveling, you can’t rely on Hearts to progress. They are not your source of experience like in other MMOs.

If anything is comparable to quests in other MMOs, it is Dynamic Events, not Renown Hearts. I’ll agree that Dynamic Events are similar to traditional questing, just they are more interactive and a lot more funner than reading quest text. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are still like traditional questing because they are your main source of progression.

Noxu.7203:

From my understanding of indelible

You address the thread like the majority are of your perspective. They aren’t. Feel free to count posts

How is something a grind if the grind part is hidden? When something is a grind it means it is a laborious task. If people don’t see it as a laborious task, because the feeling of labor feels hidden, can we still consider it a grind?

Quench.7091:

How is something a grind if the grind part is hidden? When something is a grind it means it is a laborious task. If people don’t see it as a laborious task, because the feeling of labor feels hidden, can we still consider it a grind?

The key is in the word “shallow”, and you presume that the grind stays hidden. As is evidenced by the feedback from high level – and even a lot of not-high level – players, it doesn’t.

So it’s hidden until you realise it’s there. Then it’s not hidden any more.

indelible.6981:

nerva.7940:

OP, how would you improve PVE for an MMO, without making it a sandbox? ANet has pushed the themepark to its max, and i love questing/exploring in Tyria. to me it just sounds like youre burned out from MMO’s in general.

There many things I could say in response to this, but I’m not going to go down that road. I don’t make MMOs. I am a consumer. If I were to design MMOs, I would certainly spend a great amount of my time considering how current quest mechanics, current vertical and linear progression, could be done away with in favour of other systems, as well as look at other ways of presenting the “massively” aspect of MMOs.

just as i thought, youre just a troll. thought id humour myself anyways.

Yes, because I’m not willing to throw the thread off on a tangent, and – more importantly – because I don’t agree with you, I am definitely a troll.

4chan logic is so backwards.

i thought u were from 4chan? basically, youre a troll because youre not willing to discuss anything. youre simply posting your opinion without sharing the reasoning behind it. when there is no reasoning, how can you be deemed rational? if youre not rational, how is this thread productive? youre not really giving ANet any useful feedback. youre just whining and complaining. and based on that, i say to you sir – start up your own company and build your own game.

I’ve extensively detailed my reasons throughout the thread.

I’m not responding to you after this post

I agree with you Indelible. For A-net to label this game as “revolutionary” is rather exaggerated: it’s the same-old that we’ve been seeing since WoW redefined MMORPGs.

indelible.6981:

Noxu.7203:

From my understanding of indelible

You address the thread like the majority are of your perspective. They aren’t. Feel free to count posts

Since you didn’t provide any input on how to make the game better, in your sole opinion (because, since I can’t speak for everyone, neither can you), then your criticism has been noted and invalidated, thank you for your time.

EnaiSiaion.8072:

As far as WoW clones go, it’s a pretty good one and feels like an update to WoW but free to play. It even has largely the same races.

Still, the incredible lack of thought that went into the skill system (from the inability to pick and choose skills to the lack of an auto attack on things like the bomb kit and environmental weapons) is discouraging me.

I think it’s a ‘sign of the times’,

Just look at the way WoW is going backwards instead of forwards, just check out the new ‘dumbed’ down talent system in the latest WoW patch, it’s horrific, or at least it is for anyone who played Vanilla and TBC.

Hardwired chars, with very little choice, just so the Devs can balance the game better lol, and sold to the customer base on the grounds of ‘improvement’ lolz.

In terms of a questing experience then I find GW2 a million times better than WoW, in terms of ‘endgame’ then GW2 is sadly lacking, but that can change over time, and WoW wins endgame easy.

In terms of ‘Char Building’, both games are sadly lacking, and it’s a sign of the times, Dev’s seem to think that people don’t want ‘complicated’, so everything gets dumbed down, with very little real choice.

But having said that, it’s better than WoW, at least we have Traits, allowing the player to tweak things a little.

Noxu.7203:

Since you didn’t provide any input on how to make the game better, in your sole opinion (because, since I can’t speak for everyone, neither can you), then your criticism has been noted and invalidated, thank you for your time.

So because I don’t offer solutions to a problem, the problems don’t exist? So a problem is only valid if you have the solutions to that problem?

You’re either a troll, or an utter moron.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

indelible.6981:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

So because they resemble one type of quest in another MMO, means they are instantly just like every quest in another MMO? Like I said before. Questing in another MMO IS your source of experience when it comes to leveling. Renown Hearts in GW2, are NOT your source of experience when it comes to leveling. They serve different purposes.

In GW2, Renown Hearts are there to lead you to events happening in the world. They don’t provide you with sufficient experience to be considered viable for leveling off. Unlike questing in other MMOs that your main source of experience is from questing.

I’m sorry but… your argument is that Renown Hearts aren’t quests because they reward negligible experience.

They’re functionally almost identical to quests in any other MMO, ASIDE from the lack of experience. They have you pursuing the same game play. AT BEST… they’ve managed to roll up courier and grind quests into a single, neat, little package.

You’re making a really weak case for the difference between Renown Hearts and quests right now. I hope you know that ;P

lol not really a weak argument, it is just you aren’t seeing the big picture and only looking down through a scope of what you want it to be and not what it is.

Sure they have similar objectives. You collect a bunch of quests in a quest hub, and go kill 10 of this and go collect 10 of this. Then turn them in for your xp. You go to the area of a Heart and kill 10 of this and collect 10 of this. Then you get rewarded some xp.

But what you seem to be missing is, Hearts are not your main source of progression. In other MMOs, quests are your main source of progression. In order to get the best xp while leveling, you have to do quests to progress. In GW2, Hearts are not your main source of progression. In order to get the best xp while leveling, you can’t rely on Hearts to progress. They are not your source of experience like in other MMOs.

If anything is comparable to quests in other MMOs, it is Dynamic Events, not Renown Hearts. I’ll agree that Dynamic Events are similar to traditional questing, just they are more interactive and a lot more funner than reading quest text. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are still like traditional questing because they are your main source of progression.

DE main source of XP? good in theory but not the same in practical situation. The events don’t trigger that often and vary so much from zone to zone.

For example every time i go to Norn areas, if there were no hearts i wouldn’t be able to level up. Thanks to scarce events. Now Charr zones are different stories. Too much going on but hard to get enough players to complete DE’s. Yes few can be soloed but majority of times you will get yourkitten handed to you. Players are so spread out that most of the times response is ‘meh..too far not gonna run there’. Fair enough. No they won’t teleport too because rewards are not worth it and money comes slow at low and mid levels.

So nope i wouldn’t call DE main source of experience considering how many are bugged and also due to the reasons above. The situation is even worse in ORR. I was expecting to find a lot of action but so many bugged out DE’s and few that are working, on my server we struggle to get enough players together. And my server is always HIGH.

So what i did? got last 5 levels doing PVP, that is how frustrating it gets when you try to make ’DE’s’ as main source of experince.

Its true that GW2 didn’t really revolutionize the MMO genre but I’m still having fun for now. I personally feel that the people who are disappointed may have set their expectations a little too high.

Granted some of these may or may not be the fault of the player, since the Marketing tends to hype up the game to ensure better sales. Another example would be Mass Effect 3.
Now criticisms aside, what would revolutionize the MMO genre?

GW2 is a good game just not a great game comming from GW1 it feels like a step backwards in some ways

gw1 had alot more stuff in it imo
a good story
a boss worth killing and seeing his story unfold (not in books)
better layed out missions/bonuses for replay value
the 2 class combos
the amount of skills alowing you to play how u liked (thumper ranger)
dye system seems better buy one off 10ish dyes u then can mix to suit
had more thought out plot and bad guys
going out hunting bosses to capture there elites
hex curses added more to the game had to watch what was happening to you more

gw2 story is very MEH and the last bit even more so didnt even feel apart of that fight
the story is more like puting out fires then 1 big story imo
skills based on weapons is bad when 1 weapon stands out a mile in some classes GS guardian 10-80 as no other weapon had the dmg or control for me
dyes not being account bound is silly
if i see another risen ill crack up with 1 casual play through i had 1k of them killed :S
DE events are nothing but zerg feasts no tactics invovled just through enough bodies at it to kill/defend
dungeons are just a waste of time atm with bosses havnt stupid amounts of HP 3rd or 4th boss in Arah he stands still u spam dodge once in a while for 10mins = no fun
WvWvW again just a zerg fest who has the most ppl wins
Spvp though i quit PvP in gw1 when Iway came Spvp seems more like hero battles u run to cap and kill the odd person

they could have kept what made GW1 so good and kept me playing for 3 years soild then 3 years more off and on and just made it into a non instanced world what we ended up is a dumbed down version of GW1 which for me wont last me 6 years is just to basic in style. in GW1 u had to sort builds out or have some tactics to win not just rush in unless ofc your rurik :P in gw2 u just spam buttons and hope for the best and it works that type of gameplay will get boring faster imo.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

indelible.6981:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

So because they resemble one type of quest in another MMO, means they are instantly just like every quest in another MMO? Like I said before. Questing in another MMO IS your source of experience when it comes to leveling. Renown Hearts in GW2, are NOT your source of experience when it comes to leveling. They serve different purposes.

In GW2, Renown Hearts are there to lead you to events happening in the world. They don’t provide you with sufficient experience to be considered viable for leveling off. Unlike questing in other MMOs that your main source of experience is from questing.

I’m sorry but… your argument is that Renown Hearts aren’t quests because they reward negligible experience.

They’re functionally almost identical to quests in any other MMO, ASIDE from the lack of experience. They have you pursuing the same game play. AT BEST… they’ve managed to roll up courier and grind quests into a single, neat, little package.

You’re making a really weak case for the difference between Renown Hearts and quests right now. I hope you know that ;P

lol not really a weak argument, it is just you aren’t seeing the big picture and only looking down through a scope of what you want it to be and not what it is.

Sure they have similar objectives. You collect a bunch of quests in a quest hub, and go kill 10 of this and go collect 10 of this. Then turn them in for your xp. You go to the area of a Heart and kill 10 of this and collect 10 of this. Then you get rewarded some xp.

But what you seem to be missing is, Hearts are not your main source of progression. In other MMOs, quests are your main source of progression. In order to get the best xp while leveling, you have to do quests to progress. In GW2, Hearts are not your main source of progression. In order to get the best xp while leveling, you can’t rely on Hearts to progress. They are not your source of experience like in other MMOs.

If anything is comparable to quests in other MMOs, it is Dynamic Events, not Renown Hearts. I’ll agree that Dynamic Events are similar to traditional questing, just they are more interactive and a lot more funner than reading quest text. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are still like traditional questing because they are your main source of progression.

Hearts were inserted during the testing process (alpha) in response to comments that testers thought they needed more direction. The original design was for all zones to be without hearts, like the Orr zones are. Hearts were put in to direct people towards DEs, which were always conceived as the core content. It’s terribly ironic that the game is now being attacked for having them, when it wasn’t initially conceived to have them. Sometimes testers aren’t giving the best advice, I think.

stormchaser.3026:

GW2 is a good game just not a great game comming from GW1 it feels like a step backwards in some ways

dont care much for pve (it’s a nice bonus), but what GW1 did not have is balanced pvp and WvW. GW2 is e-sports material (very nicely balanced right off the bat, with some improvements required), combat is visceral, and it includes a superior version of RvR. just the pvp is worth the $60.

so while GW2 may be a step back in some ways (according to you, I havent played GW), it sets the foundation for many things that were unimaginable in GW, like dynamic content and balanced pvp.

in addition, i dont see anything wrong with the hearts. i think theyre great filler material in between the DE chains. I spent most of my time in Lornar’s Pass doing really fun and functioning DE’s, for example, whereas hearts were more dominant in the lower level zones.

GW2 was built for DE’s. it’s infrastructure is all about dynamically scaling content. imagine what they can do with this in the future. based on all the feedback theyve gotten, i see some amazing content patched and xpacs in the future.

The biggest contribution GW2 has made to the MMO genre is that you don’t have to pick up or turn in a quest? Pickup and turnin are automatic?

I have 5 characters of different professions and races. I’m pretty sure my highest one is 11 ish. I haven’t even touched professions yet or PvP. I don’t feel any pressure to “compete” like I did in that other MMO.

Every time I play, I have fun. The world is beautiful and it’s just fun to run around and look at it instead of rushing to 80 and gearing etc…

I like the dynamic events and I think people compare them to that other MMO unfairly.

It’s refreshing compared to that other MMO of which I played for 6 ish years and ground into the ground…no pun intended. lol.

The real world moves way way too fast these days and I guess it’s the same for some people who game. It’s good to slow down and appreciate the little things because they are gone far too quickly.

I don’t like to say quit if you don’t like it but what else are you gonna do? Complain eternally?

The dev’s will fix it up and make it better, i believe. relax.

Thank you ArenaNet..I, for one, ’am enjoying this experience.

When I hear someone say “grind” in a negative way when referring to a mmorpg, I can tell they are just in the wrong genre.
There are lots of mmo’s out there that you would like better, for sure. you even named a couple.
Take a look at what you said you disliked about GW2. A mmorpg. Those are core mechanics of the genre.
You may like mmo’s. You DON"T like mmorpgs.

There, you learned something about yourself.