You are guarenteed to get something, just maybe not what you want.
Now people can stop QQing about them breaking state laws or whatever, because by that logic lucky dips should be illegal for children.
Next thread pls.
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.
i’d say it is safe to assume that 99.9% of the reason they are buying them is because they want the weapon skins…that does have a chance of not showing up, so for the weapon skin…it is gambling
Consideration: You have the choice of choosing to buy chests, or not to buy them.
Chance: It is not 100% that you will get a weapon skin
Reward: Weapon Skin
it is indeed gambling, only for the weapon skin however
gam·ble (gmbl)
v. gam·bled, gam·bling, gam·bles
v.intr.
1.
a. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
b. To play a game of chance for stakes.
2. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.
3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.
v.tr.
1. To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.
2. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.
n.
1. A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.
2. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.
I’d say the first definition fits perfectly. Next white knight, please.
As in the other post I just made. Magic the Gathering, Pokemon cards etc etc have been operating this way for years. So while it technically IS gambling…it certainly isnt illegal in any country I can think of.
Although probably North Korea. All packs bought, there you are probably guaranteed a Kim Jong card, and he’s the most powerful character you can get.
Two types of gambler, the drunk…shuffling from bar to bookie. The playboy, winning millions playing high stakes poker.
If you are moaning about this….you are definitely the former not the latter. I recommend not buying any chests and going outside for a run.
And no, I didn’t get a skin, or buy any chests. The skins are awful for one thing.
Awww i-spent-hundreds-of-dollars-on-an-online-game here wants to justify his gaming expenses. Failed when he tried to argue the definition of gambling, rather than sticking to the issue of legality.
Bubbles slapped him real hard though.
Except Flissy is right; buying chests is no more gambling than putting a quarter into one of those press-on-tattoo machines and turning the handle; you’re gonna get something every time, just maybe not what you wanted. You can’t “lose” when buying chests, you can only be really disappointed.
Me, I don’t like being disappointed, so I don’t buy em.
Supply crates are not gambling in the legal sense of the word. They are however gambling in the English sense of the word. You get a chest with the idea that it will give you something you want.
By the same token, you’re gambling every time you try anything that could fail by the English definition. Asking a girl out is a gamble. She might say yes, and she might say no. So yeah, it can be construed as gambling in English…so what? lol
I’m against the RNG for skins in chests, personally, but not because it’s gambling. It’s because it’s just a bad look for the company.
Except Flissy is right; buying chests is no more gambling than putting a quarter into one of those press-on-tattoo machines and turning the handle; you’re gonna get something every time, just maybe not what you wanted. You can’t “lose” when buying chests, you can only be really disappointed.
Me, I don’t like being disappointed, so I don’t buy em.
Is it still tempting people to trust luck for the item they want? Yes? Then it’s still gambling.
Nobody went buying BL keys when the fused weapon skins came out for crafting boosters and merchant expresses. It’s still odds. There’s still a jackpot. You just get trash instead of nothing. It’s still a loss, as it’s not the item you were hoping for.
It makes money from the people more likely to spend it but gets them kitten if the RNG screws them over. They’re probably losing profits in the long run with all these real-cash gambling hooks from the people who blow a bunch and ragequit instead of spending 10$ on a skin and staying to spend again and again.
It’s not called legally gambling even if supply crate have a chance of droping nothing. Legally speaking virtual good have no monetray value.
That’s beside the point, sentimentally people don’t like rng box in the same way they don’t like gambling.
Is it still tempting people to trust luck for the item they want? Yes? Then it’s still gambling.
.
Obviously it doesn’t legally qualify as gambling or the machines I mentioned would be illegal for children to use – they’re not.
Will some people with gambling problems throw money away on the chests? Probably, but you can’t shape your whole game around someone’s mental illness; it sucks for those people, it does, but they need to seek professional help and stop blaming the game.
Supply crates are not gambling in the legal sense of the word. They are however gambling in the English sense of the word. You get a chest with the idea that it will give you something you want.
By the same token, you’re gambling every time you try anything that could fail by the English definition. Asking a girl out is a gamble. She might say yes, and she might say no. So yeah, it can be construed as gambling in English…so what? lol
I’m against the RNG for skins in chests, personally, but not because it’s gambling. It’s because it’s just a bad look for the company.
It wouldn’t be so bad if we could trade them, because then the skins would get into the general market for those that don’t have the cash to spend. However, they seem to be making absolutely everything account/soulbound which I find to be absolute bullkitten. Just ugh.
It wouldn’t be so bad if we could trade them, because then the skins would get into the general market for those that don’t have the cash to spend. However, they seem to be making absolutely everything account/soulbound which I find to be absolute bullkitten. Just ugh.
You can buy precursors/legendary weapons on the TP so people complain because you can just buy them with in-game currency.
You can’t buy fused/eyeball weapon skins on the TP so people complain because you can’t just buy them with in-game currency.
Makes perfect sense.
It wouldn’t be so bad if we could trade them, because then the skins would get into the general market for those that don’t have the cash to spend. However, they seem to be making absolutely everything account/soulbound which I find to be absolute bullkitten. Just ugh.
You can buy precursors/legendary weapons on the TP so people complain because you can just buy them with in-game currency.
You can’t buy fused/eyeball weapon skins on the TP so people complain because you can’t just buy them with in-game currency.
Makes perfect sense.
Pretty much everything was purchasable with in game currency in GW1, if you were willing to pay the price. FoW forgemaster runs, UW spider runs, mini pets, Final mission weapons or the talismans used to get them. The only real exception to this was the stuff in the online store – costumes, makeover kits, etc…since you couldn’t convert ingame gold to store currency. I like that we have this option now, but I hate that they have basically removed our right to choose what we trade with each other.
I think people would enjoy this game a lot more if they were to process the idea that it’s not just another expansion to Guild Wars 1.
I think people would enjoy this game a lot more if they were to process the idea that it’s not just another expansion to Guild Wars 1.
Many of us are aware of this, and still enjoy the game.
I think people would enjoy this game a lot more if they were to process the idea that it’s not just another expansion to Guild Wars 1.
Many of us are aware of this, and still enjoy the game.
Many players are unable to move beyond “GW1 didn’t work like this…”
I think people would enjoy this game a lot more if they were to process the idea that it’s not just another expansion to Guild Wars 1.
Many of us are aware of this, and still enjoy the game.
Many players are unable to move beyond “GW1 didn’t work like this…”
Ya but that how ppl are once they hit an age in there life its very hard for humans to changes there views and to try out new things.
@OP:
in many games, crafting, drops, everything could be considered gambling. RNG makes it so.
This is more like a cranival game. Everyone wins a prize, just not what you want every time.
Enjoy it for what it is. If you have issues with it, then don’t buy it. Simple, right?
You are guarenteed to get something, just maybe not what you want.
Now people can stop QQing about them breaking state laws or whatever, because by that logic lucky dips should be illegal for children.
Next thread pls.
I never QQ but I consider it equivalent to carnival games. My family (not the law) has a value system such that these games are a form of soft gambling that is to be avoided. I don’t even know the odds of getting the weapon token which just makes me even less likely to purchase crates. Contrast this with the many non-RNG items in the store that I have purchased. To me—and many folks here—this is indeed gambling, whether or not it meets the legal definition. Lawyers love a technicality—well that’s mine: family values.
I think people would enjoy this game a lot more if they were to process the idea that it’s not just another expansion to Guild Wars 1.
Many of us are aware of this, and still enjoy the game.
Many players are unable to move beyond “GW1 didn’t work like this…”
There will always be those that will draw comparisons. Veterans that played for years on end are probably more likely than not, and its not a bad thing necessarily. It doesn’t mean we don’t like GW2. Hell, I enjoy the game and yes, there are things I don’t like or agree with, but that’s standard in any game. I only really have issues when the designers logic seems to have gone out the window, at which point I’ll say something, and probably make the comparison too.
In this instance, its more than just GW1 though. I can’t think of any game that I’ve played that has been this wishy washy on trading.
Legendaries but not collectible skins (your example)?
All minis completely account bound and not tradeable?
Maybe it wouldn’t be so much of an issue IF you could get those things other ways, rather than only through the cash shop. And lets face it, the in-game drop rates for the things that have a chance of giving you those things are so negligible, that they may as well not exist.
“So convert in-game gold to gems” I hear people saying…ha, no thanks. Not at 4g+ per 100 gems. I haven’t found my cash cow yet to be able to sustain that insanity.
I think people would enjoy this game a lot more if they were to process the idea that it’s not just another expansion to Guild Wars 1.
It’s not about it not being like GW1. It’s about the changes i speak against being for the worse. Different is not always better.
Gambling? Really? Here’s the legal definition of gambling.
“A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. Gambling does not include bona fide business transactions valid under the law of contracts, such as the purchase or sale at a future date of securities or commodities, contracts of indemnity or guaranty and life, health or accident insurance.”
The items received have no actual value. You’re not putting anything at stake or risking anything of value, you’re making a purchase of an item. Anyone trying to claim that this is some form of gambling needs to hush and take a good look at reality.
I think people would enjoy this game a lot more if they were to process the idea that it’s not just another expansion to Guild Wars 1.
Many of us are aware of this, and still enjoy the game.
Many players are unable to move beyond “GW1 didn’t work like this…”
There will always be those that will draw comparisons. Veterans that played for years on end are probably more likely than not, and its not a bad thing necessarily. It doesn’t mean we don’t like GW2. Hell, I enjoy the game and yes, there are things I don’t like or agree with, but that’s standard in any game. I only really have issues when the designers logic seems to have gone out the window, at which point I’ll say something, and probably make the comparison too.
In this instance, its more than just GW1 though. I can’t think of any game that I’ve played that has been this wishy washy on trading.
Legendaries but not collectible skins (your example)?
All minis completely account bound and not tradeable?Maybe it wouldn’t be so much of an issue IF you could get those things other ways, rather than only through the cash shop. And lets face it, the in-game drop rates for the things that have a chance of giving you those things are so negligible, that they may as well not exist.
“So convert in-game gold to gems” I hear people saying…ha, no thanks. Not at 4g+ per 100 gems. I haven’t found my cash cow yet to be able to sustain that insanity.
Most minis are tradeable. Just go to the trading post and do a search on minis. For the most part, the minis that aren’t tradeable are the ones from the RNG reward chests that you buy with cash. But all the other minis are…even the rare one from Flame and Frost that dropped in the dungeon.
Its not illegal for one sheer fact, you are not forced to do it. Since its your CHOICE to buy the box with random loot.
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.
i’d say it is safe to assume that 99.9% of the reason they are buying them is because they want the weapon skins…that does have a chance of not showing up, so for the weapon skin…it is gambling
Consideration: You have the choice of choosing to buy chests, or not to buy them.
Chance: It is not 100% that you will get a weapon skin
Reward: Weapon Skinit is indeed gambling, only for the weapon skin however
I agree, add to that the insult of having nothing but group events for every other type of cosmetic thing and we indeed have the situation where it’s not longer a choice of play they claim this year would be all about. Seriously, if these were stated items and the only thing you could do was join in your own guild when everyone was online to do anything or buy them from the store people would be up in arms about it most definitely.
But since they are cosmetic people let it slide and spread the disingenuous argument that somehow it’s different and perfectly fine. Unfortunately it’s not illegal.
TBH ive been extremely surprised with this game. Its not just the chests. There are so many things in this game that involve the promotion of gambling and (excessive) consumption of alcohol. This game seems like its designed for a wide audience, children included, but they sneak things like this in here. Pretty irresponsible.
Most minis are tradeable. Just go to the trading post and do a search on minis. For the most part, the minis that aren’t tradeable are the ones from the RNG reward chests that you buy with cash. But all the other minis are…even the rare one from Flame and Frost that dropped in the dungeon.
I must just not have any luck when I’m looking I guess. I’ll retract part of my minis not being tradable gripe. ^.^
All im saying is if we keep on getting RNG chests then anet better go full throttle and open a in game casino where i can bet gems.
Then i challenge anyone to tyrian poker and ill be laughing when i finally have all these skins.
It is gambling from a practical point of view, but it isn’t from a legal point of view simply because you’re not getting anything that has a monetary value, or that can be converted into money, which is why things like collectable cards aren’t legally considered gambling.
Actually I remember reading a novel about a place that went around gambling laws by giving different colored teddy bears instead of money for winning… and across the street there was a completely unrelated pawn shop that would pay money for teddy bears, the amount of money depended on the color.
You are guarenteed to get something, just maybe not what you want.
Now people can stop QQing about them breaking state laws or whatever, because by that logic lucky dips should be illegal for children.
Next thread pls.
Is that the screech of an unpaid shill I hear?
It’s not gambling because you can’t get real money out of it.
In this instance, its more than just GW1 though. I can’t think of any game that I’ve played that has been this wishy washy on trading.
Legendaries but not collectible skins (your example)?
All minis completely account bound and not tradeable?
.
When I gave her a gem card, my wife bought a 3-pack of random minis from the cash shop and gave them to me, one by one, when she tired of them. I’ve sold two on the TP.
Making precursors and legendaries BoE instead of account bound was a huge mistake, and given the problems they had with the mispriced weapons vendor in the beginning of the game, a minor disaster. I’m sure they would have changed that if they had realized what would happen, but we can’t always predict human behavior, especially if a person is focused on the better aspects of human nature.
At this point, and even several months ago when they first realized it had become a problem, it is too late to change them. Too many people have spent a lot of money (in game and cash) in pursuit of legendaries, and too many people have a lot of this money currently invested in the legendary weapons market. Taking away their ability to sell them would probably result in a lawsuit, as there is at least the potential for real money to be involved.
I would be surprised if future precursors and especially full-fledged legendary weapons are tradeable, however. If they are working on an alternate method of acquiring them, then it will most likely involve new, account bound precursors.
As for weapon skins, they seem to make at least a token effort to please everyone. RNG lottery skins are not tradeable and this is a good thing. People may spend $100s trying to acquire them, but what would happen if they could be sold on the TP? Even more people would convert gems to gold to pay ridiculous sums for existing skins/tickets, and speculators would spend even more money buying gems to try to find skins to sell. Gold farmers, especially, would increase their efforts to spend other people’s money for this purpose.
If Anet were truly as greedy as people think, they would make the RNG skins tradeable, and triple their gem sales immediately. But it would come at the expense of the game, and the players.
OTOH, skins like those from the SAB are tradeable, and come from playing the game instead of playing the RNG lottery. And they continue adding items that are purchased directly, like the F&F NPC weapons. So if you object to the RNG lottery you have other items to focus on.
I think people look at this from the wrong perspective. Things that have been added to the game, fractals and ascended gear, the Living World stories, cosmetic items and lottery boxes, are each intended for a different audience. Anet recognizes that there a lot of different kinds of players in the game, including some who never had an interest in GW1. GW2 is a very different game and instead of seeing betrayal because every aspect of the game is not custom-made for my play style, I recognize that others want different things from the game and see Anet trying to give everyone something to satisfy them.
This means the game is meant to appeal to a larger audience. It’s not the perfect game for any single type of player, but it has something for everyone.
You are guarenteed to get something, just maybe not what you want.
Now people can stop QQing about them breaking state laws or whatever, because by that logic lucky dips should be illegal for children.
Next thread pls.
It’s good to know you know the laws of all the sates, could you tell me when you got your law degree and from what university? ;-)
Here in Rhode Island, we cannot even enter the art contests, you know the ones where they ask you to submit a drawing of a new weapon, etc and then they give you something in game as a prize, like a mini? No money changes hands and no tangible goods, but we are still not allowed to do it. Anet even has to put it in the rules for their contests “open to residents of all 50 states including Alaska and Hawaii, EXECPT Rhode Island.”. Yeah, it’s stupid beyond measure, but it is still a state law where I live, but you knew that already, didn’t you?
It’s not gambling because you can’t get real money out of it.
Read my post above, it depends on where you live.
-snip-
This means the game is meant to appeal to a larger audience. It’s not the perfect game for any single type of player, but it has something for everyone.
Didn’t really need the whole shpiel…
Anywho, I do agree with the wrap up. ANet can’t please everyone, and I’m ok with that. Doesn’t mean I won’t grump from time to time ~.^
Didn’t really need the whole shpiel…
Anywho, I do agree with the wrap up. ANet can’t please everyone, and I’m ok with that. Doesn’t mean I won’t grump from time to time ~.^
I get long-winded when I’m in a philosophical mood. Anyway, it’s not just directed at you, but about the forums in general. People are all bent out of shape because “they went against the Manifesto” and such, when all they are doing is adapting to the demands of a changing market.
SWTOR introduced lottery boxes when they went F2P, they had some fluff items like new emotes or whatever, but also had ultra-rare vehicles and gear. Things that affected the game, not just cosmetic items like skins, which also happened to be among the most distinctive styles of equipment in the game. People buying up the boxes and selling off the rare stuff made millions of credits doing so. And, of course, the forums blew up with protests…
I don’t play it any more, I left twice and the second time was a month after F2P. But so far as I know they haven’t stopped the lottery boxes.
Trion announced (yesterday?) that Rift was going F2P next month. They’re going to be selling gear through the cash shop, not just cosmetic stuff. I wonder how long it will be before the RNG lottery shows up there…
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Didn’t really need the whole shpiel…
Anywho, I do agree with the wrap up. ANet can’t please everyone, and I’m ok with that. Doesn’t mean I won’t grump from time to time ~.^
I get long-winded when I’m in a philosophical mood. Anyway, it’s not just directed at you, but about the forums in general. People are all bent out of shape because “they went against the Manifesto” and such, when all they are doing is adapting to the demands of a changing market.
SWTOR introduced lottery boxes when they went F2P, they had some fluff items like new emotes or whatever, but also had ultra-rare vehicles and gear. Things that affected the game, not just cosmetic items like skins, which also happened to be among the most distinctive styles of equipment in the game. People buying up the boxes and selling off the rare stuff made millions of credits doing so. And, of course, the forums blew up with protests…
I don’t play it any more, I left twice and the second time was a month after F2P. But so far as I know they haven’t stopped the lottery boxes.
Trion announced (yesterday?) that Rift was going F2P next month. They’re going to be selling gear through the cash shop, not just cosmetic stuff. I wonder how long it will be before the RNG lottery shows up there…
I sure as heck hope not. I have no issue with gem shops that simply sell cosmetic things. Dye, town clothes, skins, minis, etc. When they start selling things that affect game play (I left the boosts out of this simply because I get so many of those through normal play that I’ll never use them all and as thus, people that buy them aren’t at any great advantage lol), then there’s an issue. I am firmly against P2W shops.
RNG chests are a gamble, they are not illegal gambling.
/thread
Johnny want a fused weapon skin. The only way he can get a fused weapon skin is by opening chests. He’s already used up the paltry amount of keys hes obtained through normal gameplay and had no luck. Now he has to pay money to obtain keys in order to get his skin.
Johnny doesn’t want a single thing other than a skin, therefore any thing he obtains apart from a skin is considered a loss. Johnny is risking money for a small chance of getting what he wants.
Johnny sounds like a moron with no self control. And thats pretty much the counterpoint to every argument that this is gambling. Sure it’s gambling…so if you dont like gambling, don’t do it.
I’d sure like to hear an official response considering Anet is involved in interstate electronic transmission of funds and or services with regards to games of chance which is the legal definition of Internet Gambling as governed by US law.
You can buy precursors/legendary weapons on the TP so people complain because you can just buy them with in-game currency.
You can’t buy fused/eyeball weapon skins on the TP so people complain because you can’t just buy them with in-game currency.
Makes perfect sense.
Hilarious how a person could argue like this. How hard is it to use one’s brain to realize that people are completely different people from people?
Apparently for some, having our individual brains all hooked up to the same matrix somehow makes us the same people. Makes perfect sense.
You can buy precursors/legendary weapons on the TP so people complain because you can just buy them with in-game currency.
You can’t buy fused/eyeball weapon skins on the TP so people complain because you can’t just buy them with in-game currency.
Makes perfect sense.
Hilarious how a person could argue like this. How hard is it to use one’s brain to realize that people are completely different people from people?
Apparently for some, having our individual brains all hooked up to the same matrix somehow makes us the same people. Makes perfect sense.
I know. Each group thinks its own opinions are the only ones worth considering, and are outraged because Anet offers something to the other group. It’s ironic, as though one expects everyone playing the game is just like himself…
I’d sure like to hear an official response considering Anet is involved in interstate electronic transmission of funds and or services with regards to games of chance which is the legal definition of Internet Gambling as governed by US law.
Some time ago, on another forum, a poster claimed RNG boxes and purchased keys violated France’s anti-online-gambling laws. Since RNG boxes all contain something that a buyer might want, they are just like Magic: the Gathering booster packs. You can buy MTG Packs in France, online, though Amazon France.
ANet and that other game company have lawyers, whose job is to protect them from making costly mistakes. I suspect those lawyers know more about the law than forum lawyers do.
I’d sure like to hear an official response considering Anet is involved in interstate electronic transmission of funds and or services with regards to games of chance which is the legal definition of Internet Gambling as governed by US law.
Some time ago, on another forum, a poster claimed RNG boxes and purchased keys violated France’s anti-online-gambling laws. Since RNG boxes all contain something that a buyer might want, they are just like Magic: the Gathering booster packs. You can buy MTG Packs in France, online, though Amazon France.
ANet and that other game company have lawyers, whose job is to protect them from making costly mistakes. I suspect those lawyers know more about the law than forum lawyers do.
Yes they all have lawyers and what you said many people have said about so many gaming companies right before they got the pants sued off them or fined.
Look at Blizzard and they have many of those attorneys you speak of.
The way they have this supply crate set up can go either way if enforcement wants to look at it as gambling because it is. Its clearly not set up very smart. One of the marketers seen an easy way to bump up revenue short term but these type of actions can hurt the player base in the long term.
Stop it with the monetary value already. Recent case law points out that virtual items can indeed represent monetary value, and that you can have ownership over said items, even if Anet has ultimate ownership (the supreme court in the netherlands used the example of a passport, which, strictly speaking, is owned by the state; yet you can excersise ownership over it, it can be stolen and does represent value).
Is it gambling? Yes. Does it meet the minimum threshold for gambling? Depends on the country. The problem is that no country will enforce it even if it does meet the threshold. If Anet continues on this path, however, I could see people going to court with this on a no cure no pay basis.
My main gripe with this business concept is that it is morally corrupt as kitten. It exploits weakness and incites gambling.
(edited by Buttercup.5871)
It’s not illegal gambling….
Has your state banned baseball (or Magic the Gathering and Pokemon) cards? Oh wait, they haven’t, because selling randomized packages of things is not considered gambling well..almost anywhere?
It’s not illegal gambling….
Has your state banned baseball (or Magic the Gathering and Pokemon) cards? Oh wait, they haven’t, because selling randomized packages of things is not considered gambling well..almost anywhere?
Yes, it’s not gambling according to most legistalions (most – not all). It’s because it uses some rather creative and relatively new loopholes, and gambling is tied to soo much money that any changes to law are bound to be very, very conservative (generally, rightly so). But in common meaning of the word? Yes, it’s a gambling. Gambling aimed at minors, at that.
Right, it’s not gambling. It IS a big pile of bovine waste, however.
Now people can stop QQing about them breaking state laws or whatever
What? Please tell me there weren’t people who actually saying that…
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