Guild Wars 2

and that but also the fact that it gives weight to your actions and beside after using some skills in a weapon set that weapons set has no purpose so why swap back to it?

As the sigils have internal cooldown, that can’t be the reason. As a warrior player running with fast hands (5s weapon swap) while using sigils that have 9s internal cooldown, I would not say that sigils were the reason for making it such a long wait.

But the art in this game is to bridge the time between weapon swaps (mostly without using AA all the time) using utility or passive abilities from traits. Also what zealex said.

jojorne.2175:

in real life you could swap weapons in a second or two

I’d really like to see you switching between sword+shield and a longbow in a second or two, without ditching one of those sets.

Stick sword into scabbard – 0.5 seconds if you are standing. Try that while running/dodging.
Detach the shield from your forearm and put the shield over your head so it is on your back – 2-3 seconds, IF you wear no helmet, pauldrons etc. I neglect the fact that the leather strap to fasten the shield on your back is normally detached during combat.
Get the bow off your back (where the shield is at right now) – around 0.5 sec, again if wearing nothing where the bowstring can get caught up in.

So, summarizing, if we leave all of reality aside, it would be possible to switch weapons in 3 or 4 seconds. In reality, a soldier clad in heavy plate would not even be able to reach to his back to fetch anything. Also, switching from bow to sword/whatever (and ditching the bow in that process) goes fast. Drop bow, pull sword. But the other way around takes pretty long in comparison. Bernhard Cornwell’s “The Archer’s Tale” gives some interesting insights into swordplay and archery and how things went back then.

jojorne.2175:

thanks Plautze, i would love to see a cooldown time of 4 seconds, sounds reasonable.
oh yes, a real medieval soldier would not even change weapons, otherwise he would drop it and never get back to it.

Then Warrior is your class, if you are willing to take 5 instead of 4 seconds cooldown

Theres really no need to have lower cd because the cd of certain skills is big bigger than the swap cd it self and ud literally swap to a kit with cds to do what? The actual swapping cd gives more depth because it gives you time to do part of your rotation and then have a down time where you weave attacks while w8ing for cd on the other weapons kit or utilities that can combo with your skills. It also there to pubish you if you swap to.the wrong weapon orat the wrong time taking it off would require rembalancing of many skills and it would also take a lvl of depth from the game. The combat is already fast dynamic and fluid theres no reason for it to be faster.

Plautze.6290:

Stick sword into scabbard – 0.5 seconds if you are standing. Try that while running/dodging.
Detach the shield from your forearm and put the shield over your head so it is on your back – 2-3 seconds, IF you wear no helmet, pauldrons etc. I neglect the fact that the leather strap to fasten the shield on your back is normally detached during combat.
Get the bow off your back (where the shield is at right now) – around 0.5 sec, again if wearing nothing where the bowstring can get caught up in.

So, summarizing, if we leave all of reality aside, it would be possible to switch weapons in 3 or 4 seconds. In reality, a soldier clad in heavy plate would not even be able to reach to his back to fetch anything. Also, switching from bow to sword/whatever (and ditching the bow in that process) goes fast. Drop bow, pull sword. But the other way around takes pretty long in comparison. Bernhard Cornwell’s “The Archer’s Tale” gives some interesting insights into swordplay and archery and how things went back then.

condi warr be like
“ok i drop my longbow to swap to my sword and torch” some time latter
“oh kitten its dps time let me get my bow”
a few moments later
“WHERE THE kitten DID I DROP MY BOW”

zealex.9410:

Plautze.6290:

Stick sword into scabbard – 0.5 seconds if you are standing. Try that while running/dodging.
Detach the shield from your forearm and put the shield over your head so it is on your back – 2-3 seconds, IF you wear no helmet, pauldrons etc. I neglect the fact that the leather strap to fasten the shield on your back is normally detached during combat.
Get the bow off your back (where the shield is at right now) – around 0.5 sec, again if wearing nothing where the bowstring can get caught up in.

So, summarizing, if we leave all of reality aside, it would be possible to switch weapons in 3 or 4 seconds. In reality, a soldier clad in heavy plate would not even be able to reach to his back to fetch anything. Also, switching from bow to sword/whatever (and ditching the bow in that process) goes fast. Drop bow, pull sword. But the other way around takes pretty long in comparison. Bernhard Cornwell’s “The Archer’s Tale” gives some interesting insights into swordplay and archery and how things went back then.

condi warr be like
“ok i drop my longbow to swap to my sword and torch” some time latter
“oh kitten its dps time let me get my bow”
a few moments later
“WHERE THE kitten DID I DROP MY BOW”

So it goes
On another note though, any throw weapon attack is BS, too. Sure, if you’d wield dual axes, throwing one and keeping on fighting with the one left over would be beneficial, but the GS toss is reaaaaaally weird. Even weirder, the GS does a u-turn and comes back to you… while you are moving… and in the meantime you can still do 100B with the backup GS you had on your back? Yeah right… so, to be quite honest, realitiy should not be topic in any fantasy game.

Plautze.6290:

zealex.9410:

Plautze.6290:

Stick sword into scabbard – 0.5 seconds if you are standing. Try that while running/dodging.
Detach the shield from your forearm and put the shield over your head so it is on your back – 2-3 seconds, IF you wear no helmet, pauldrons etc. I neglect the fact that the leather strap to fasten the shield on your back is normally detached during combat.
Get the bow off your back (where the shield is at right now) – around 0.5 sec, again if wearing nothing where the bowstring can get caught up in.

So, summarizing, if we leave all of reality aside, it would be possible to switch weapons in 3 or 4 seconds. In reality, a soldier clad in heavy plate would not even be able to reach to his back to fetch anything. Also, switching from bow to sword/whatever (and ditching the bow in that process) goes fast. Drop bow, pull sword. But the other way around takes pretty long in comparison. Bernhard Cornwell’s “The Archer’s Tale” gives some interesting insights into swordplay and archery and how things went back then.

condi warr be like
“ok i drop my longbow to swap to my sword and torch” some time latter
“oh kitten its dps time let me get my bow”
a few moments later
“WHERE THE kitten DID I DROP MY BOW”

So it goes
On another note though, any throw weapon attack is BS, too. Sure, if you’d wield dual axes, throwing one and keeping on fighting with the one left over would be beneficial, but the GS toss is reaaaaaally weird. Even weirder, the GS does a u-turn and comes back to you… while you are moving… and in the meantime you can still do 100B with the backup GS you had on your back? Yeah right… so, to be quite honest, realitiy should not be topic in any fantasy game.

and its doesnt even stop there wonna takk about my inventory with 3 armors sets and 3 4weapons for each set rings foods etc… My asura guard must be a beast xD

jojorne.2175:

if you try to play as the other player moves, you will have difficulties.
as is, you can only swap weapons once in battle, unless the battle takes longer.

if another player comes with a different style, you cannot swap weapon nor use skill because they all will be in cooldown, you will have to run.

1 second less and all that could be different, you could swap weapons and match the other player style.

that regards pvp tho and usually each weapon set has ways or running or gap closing or coyntering someone with something

jojorne.2175:

my point is, i can do all my skills rotations and yet have to wait for 1 to 2 seconds to swap weapon again, that extra time…

That’s exactly the point, isn’kitten
Every weapon has its weaker and stronger skills – with autoattack often being the weakest (yes, i know there are exceptions). If there was no switch weapon cooldown, you’d be able to just rotate your strongest skills while completely ignoring the weak ones – including autoattack.
The reason why strongest skills have the longest cooldowns is so you would not be able to spam them. Weapon switching tries to partially get over that issue, by alternating strongest skills from two weapon sets, but you are not supposed to be able to ignore it completely.
So, in short: yes, it is possible for Anet to get rid of weapon switch cooldowns. It would likely mean increasing cooldown on all non-autoattack skills however.
You’d still end up autoattacking for most of your time.

the why have shorter cd on swap when half of the skills u would use in the other weapon set are off cd?

So long in itself has no meaning.

Why is it so long ? Because fights are so fast ! The whole fighting system, including CD’s has been designed with the idea of longlasting fights. Therefore, long CD (for weapons swaps, or for some skills) is a way to say how relevant they could be for the fight, as “turning tides” events.

Yet, the overall trend the game has taken for ages is now to have fights as quick as possible, and skills with high CD get dismissed for the very same reason. And that’s also the reason why switching weapon’s CD feels long.

This is one of the main reasons I love Engi so much tbh. Using kits I have the luxary of NO cooldowns between swaps and it’s awesome!

But I do have all classes and I can tell you when I am playing any of them besides the Engi the system just feels so punishing and I too ask why? Why is it so long or even a thing at all?

Tbh I wish that they would remove it it entirely. Some of you have asked what is the point of being able to swap instantly if your skills are on cooldown anyway? Well the simple answer to that is the auto attack skill 1. I have found myself many times (especially in pvp or wvw) needing to swap back quickly between long range and short range as the combat changes and needs change with that.

Example I may be having a range war with someone and he may see that I am winning that so he may charge in for the melee. So of course I swap to melee too. Either he or I don’t like the out come of melee so one of us runs. No biggy you think just change back to range and finish the fight! Wait what’s this, I can’t and I have to wait because of some pointless timer? Oh noes this is a design flaw and VERY annoying!

This turns this fight in to a contest then of who can run the fastest and more than likely ends it with no one dying. Is this not similar to what we saw with the “bunker” builds in Pvp and the “esport” situation where people found the fights boring because fights took too long or no one died? So what did they do? They addressed it and pretty much killed off tanky builds because “esports”. I could see the same thing happening here if enough people spoke up about it and a real discussion was had with both pros and cons for removing or lowering the cooldown on weaponswaps.

Tbh I think it’s all to do with certain traits or runes/sigils (perhaps even food as well) that may add boons on weapon swap, I am sure there are some out there that have no cooldowns at all. Could you imagine if one was say Might? Boom instant 25 Might just from standing still and spamming weapon swap.

If this is the case I am sure Anet really would not want to go through and change all of these traits/runes/sigils (possibly food as well) and give them all individual cooldowns. As much as I would want them to and wish that they would I just can’t see it happening.

Edit: I just looked through all consumables and Sigils and there are zero without their own cooldowns. So perhaps this could be trait related only or some excuse for “class balance” of some kind….

Astralporing.1957:

jojorne.2175:

in real life you could swap weapons in a second or two

I’d really like to see you switching between sword+shield and a longbow in a second or two, without ditching one of those sets.

As a long-time larper who fought sword-and-board, I sure as kitten wasn’t swapping gear every 10 seconds. :\

But yes, it’s very likely that the cooldown was intended as a design decision to force players to make a critical decision about when to swap weapons. It’s bad enough I see plenty of people just spamming whatever’s off cooldown (bearbow gets the worst accusations, but…) then swapping to spam those cooldowns and then… yeah, it just repeats from there.

Given the number of begs for “baseline Fast Hands” on the warrior forum, maybe there’s some thought in lowering/removing the cooldown universally. It might be a design decision to be deliberate with weapon swaps, but it seems like one of those decisions that can sway with how players use the game.

1. Cooldown on weapon swap serves the same purpose as cooldowns on skills. They add opportunity cost to actions taken by players.
2. Playing with opportunity costs provides some depth to the combat system, just as opportunity costs in traits and gear provide some depth to character building. Deeper systems are inherently more interesting than shallower ones because they engage the brain.
3. Without CD’s — or with lesser CD’ — players would have access to more effective character abilities more often, making the game easier for them. That’s not necessarily a good thing because many complain the game is too easy as it is.
4. CD’s are one of the tools the devs use to balance the game. Without CD’s the devs would need to re-balance character abilities to compensate. Such changes are risky, because game balance is complicated, involving many factors. Getting it right isn’t easy. In fact, some say the devs don’t get it right as often as those players would like. Also, further complicating the task of balancing the game’s combat/build systems would take serious dev time — and there have been numerous complaints that ANet does not put out balance patches fast enough as is.

If you want faster weapon swap, roll a warrior and trait Discipline.

AFAIK engie weapon skills are weaker than “normal” weapon skills, to compensate for the insta-change kit function, or I’m wrong?

zealex.9410:

and that but also the fact that it gives weight to your actions and beside after using some skills in a weapon set that weapons set has no purpose so why swap back to it?

^^^^ this. There isn’t a “realistic” reason for it, just a meta-game reason: because it makes the mechanics work better, in the opinion of the GW2 design team.

jojorne.2175:

i don’t think what zealex said is a valid point. my guess is on you have to think your actions but yet… see, you could swap to get a shield skill from your short range weapons and then swap back for the normal long range attack, no biggies.
so “the think your action” makes a valid point, but also slows the combat. there are several games out there you can swap with no cooldown and have a fast paced combat and yet have to think your next action.

also the ele attune comes into play for comparison to swap weapons… my guess is that ele attune should have some cooldowns but to not make a big diff they increased the cooldown of swap weapon. anyway i also see no point for the long cooldowns for ele attunes.

in real life you could swap weapons in a second or two, so i still don’t get this long cooldowns time. there must be something like sigil skills holding arena from lower the cooldown or they are afraid of players becoming overpowered by creating a buffer weapon set.

And in GW2 you swap weapons instantly. The cooldown between weapon swapping is 10 seconds, but the swapping is instant.

Its purely a balance decision. Different weapons are good at different things, so if you swap there should be a “consequence” to it. If you need a defensive skill, then you have to evaluate if you need it enough to justify being stuck with weaker pressure for 10 seconds. If you switch from ranged to melee you have to evaluate if you can down the other player before they get out of range, or if you can prevent them from just getting out of melee range and leaving you more or less useless until you can swap back.

Its a huge balance decision, and I love that it is in the game. I think it adds a lot more depth to the combat.

Ardid.7203:

AFAIK engie weapon skills are weaker than “normal” weapon skills, to compensate for the insta-change kit function, or I’m wrong?

Nope not in my exp. In fact using the weps on their own can be a detriment. Example if I have my Flamethrower equiped I get perma stability (pretty much), constant 6 might and with any kit HP regen (different to the boon and works alongside it for total 2 Hp regens at the same time, 3 if I eat mango pies :P).

Dropping down to my rifle (or pistol/Hammer) I lose all that and it is far less damage in the long run. In fact the only time I unequip my flamethrower or elixir gun for that matter is when I need to break a bar (or change to long range as in my example above for fleeing enemy’s or needed longrange attacks again). Flamethrower 3 + Rifle 4 is great for breaking bars. But you can be sure I instantly change back to my kit to get my might/stability stacks back up again.

Playing engi kit build I see no great advantage for me over other players (or mobs for that matter) by being able to change my kits (weps) with ZERO (well there is technically a split second cooldown) cooldown. But I do see a better flow to combat and less grief.

I can’t really see it being too much of a thing if they gave it to all classes. Sure there would probably need some things looked at and adjusted. But in the long run I think it could add a lot to the game. Just remember there ARE all those individual skill cooldowns anyway (well besides thief).

Edit: I guess the trade off for Engi’s tho is for this zero “weapons swap” ability we do lose other utilities by using kits but then again there is the toolbelt, not sure if that compares….

jojorne.2175:

Just because the swap skill of some sigils… Is that true?

It’s an arbitrary setup to create player choice/consequences during play.

Not sure if you are new but there are ways around weapon swap cooldowns to some degree,

Warriors fast hands
Rune of the warrior
Ele attunement swapping
Engineer (and several other classes’) kits
Necromancer and druid death shroud and celestial avatar form

Weapon swap cooldown is there to bring an opportunity cost to your decision making in combat. Decision making in combat is another level of skill due to these opportunity costs. Why does anything have a cooldown or some sort of cost? for this reason.

Having a cooldown for swapping out 5 skills is grounded in the same reasoning why any skill will have some sort of cost (be it cooldowns, mana/resource cost, etc.) You have to decide which set of skills is most important for the next 9 seconds, balancing strengths/weaknesses and opportunities/threats.

The alternative is consequence free decision making in combat.

It’s always been one of the many aspects of the combat system that makes is terrible.

probably because allowing a player to freely swap between weapon sets every second would make combat unplayable. you would see a skill spam level unimaginable. there would be no counter play to a lot of potential combos. just think about it. ranged would be the only way to remain competitive.

If you find yourself constantly on the wrong weapon set then you should probably be paying more attention to when you swap.