Guild Wars 2

I’ve played both modes. And I must say that WvWvW is more tactical than structured PvP.

Why? If you’re a commander, you have to control your attack team which comprises of multiple types of players, communicate with other commanders, decide if you gank incoming hoards of enemies or storm a post and what not.

sPvP, you have to get to know your skills well and try to end up winning.

I could point out a real life equivalents of both types.

Imagine when Richard the Lionhart went from England to capture the Holy Land? His army were not just composed of trained men but with commonfolks too. This is akin to WvWvW mixture of types of players. You have well equipped and traited players and you have your upscaled players.

Coordinating a zerg requires that you must know real life military tactics to actually pull it off. I would guess that good commanders in WvWvW are or have experience in the military.

sPvP? It’s a like sports. It’s controlled environment. It’s like faux warfare. And no one plays sports 24/7.

What do you think? Do you agree with me?

Why sPvP and PvE > than WvW…

1.) free server transfers
2.) orb hacking
3.) free server transfers
4.) Alt F4 vanishing victims
5.) free server transfers

When those few things get taken care of…you might have a point.

Personally I feel that apples are better than oranges.

Hamburgers are also better than hot dogs.

WvW and sPvP have the common fact that they are forms of PvP, but other than that they are different entities and there’s no need to compare them in terms of hich is “better.”

for one entity to be better than the other, they have to be different.

WvW requires more skill on the part of the people in charge whereas the masses need to know their class, sure, but aside from that they just need to follow directions. Also since they’re always in some sort of group, they can afford some mistakes personally and still succeed as a team. Whereas in sPvP it requires much more individual skill. There is less decision making and organizational skill required from the team leader so that part is not as important as the individual members doing their jobs in much smaller groupings (or even 1v1) so there is less room for personal error.

Different skill sets required because they are different situations entirely. Hard to really say one is better than the other. Personally I enjoy both but I enjoy WvW better in the longterm since I like to feel like my actions matter in the grand scheme of things. sPvP is fun sometimes and does provide a unique and fun challenge, but it exists off in it’s own little bubble and doesn’t affect my real character in game or the game world at all, which makes me feel like my accomplishments there aren’t as important (and thus not as fun). Of course others certainly feel differently but to each his own.

You can be a really crummy player, just a button-masher type, and do very very well in WvW.

You can also be extremely good at your class and get nothing accomplished in WvW.

Not so true for sPvP. They’re really different games.

mulch.2586:

You can be a really crummy player, just a button-masher type, and do very very well in WvW.

You can also be extremely good at your class and get nothing accomplished in WvW.

Not so true for sPvP. They’re really different games.

That’s because in WvW you are relying on a much larger team of people whereas in sPvP you only need 5 people so if 1 person does extremely well, well that’s 20% of the group so that’s huge. In WvW you need mass amounts of people to organize successfully and play well so you could argue that it requires much more skill and teamwork to have mass amounts of people work together, organize well, and play their classes well than to only have 5 people do the same. Sure, you can perform badly in WvW and still do fine if the rest of the zerg is playing well but the same goes for sPvP – if one guy is sub par but the rest are doing well, you can still win. That’s what we call carrying and it’s certainly not a new concept. :P But a badly organized and badly played zerg does not do well at all (likely they accomplish nothing) and a well played and well organized server in WvW will absolutely wreck.

Personally, I hate the repair costs of WvW. I think it very much holds me back from willing to be more aggressive when necessary… Particularly because nothing is at stake for not doing well in WvW. Being top dog last week gives you and your server nothing for the next week…. And if it does, then it’s hardly noticeable. If there was some benefit to being the “winner” for the week, maybe I’d be more willing to die for it.

I agree Bruno, they need to get rid of repair costs in WvW. It’s PvP just like sPvP is, and in PvP people tend to die a lot. The entire point is to kill off the enemy team and take over their territories, same as in sPvP just on a much larger scale. There is no reason why we should be paying repair costs for that.

I agree Bruno, they need to get rid of repair costs in WvW. It’s PvP just like sPvP is, and in PvP people tend to die a lot. The entire point is to kill off the enemy team and take over their territories, same as in sPvP just on a much larger scale. There is no reason why we should be paying repair costs for that.

In a situation where our walls have been breached and all my teammates are being ravaged by the enemy inside, if I do find myself in a hopeless situation I usually find the highest point of the castle and jump off to my death escaping to the repair fee.

Leiloni.7951
I agree Bruno, they need to get rid of repair costs in WvW. It’s PvP just like sPvP is, and in PvP people tend to die a lot. The entire point is to kill off the enemy team and take over their territories, same as in sPvP just on a much larger scale. There is no reason why we should be paying repair costs for that.

I suspect at least part of the reason is because there are some rewards (XPs, world completion, etc.) that are available in WvW that are not in sPvP. Thus they need to balance the reward with some risk.

SPVP imo is pretty boring without multiple game modes just my opinion, but the one game mode is super boring after an hour. I know Anet said they wanted one game mode just to focus on E-sports, but I think the lack of game modes is what will destroy their “ESport” Dream and honestly I think at this point Esports aren’t even in the question for GW2. Don’t get me wrong I LOVE Guild wars 2 in fact I have sex with my CE every night, but I feel it really needs to add more game modes.
Capture the flag
Hutt ball
and Black garden
add those 3 combined with capture the node and I and I think many others may be a tad happier. Thats really all I want right now just more game modes.

Why sPvP and PvE > than WvW…
1.) free server transfers
2.) orb hacking
3.) free server transfers
4.) Alt F4 vanishing victims
5.) free server transfers
When those few things get taken care of…you might have a point.

Amen.

Greencactaur.4396:

SPVP imo is pretty boring without multiple game modes just my opinion, but the one game mode is super boring after an hour. I know Anet said they wanted one game mode just to focus on E-sports, but I think the lack of game modes is what will destroy their “ESport” Dream and honestly I think at this point Esports aren’t even in the question for GW2. Don’t get me wrong I LOVE Guild wars 2 in fact I have sex with my CE every night, but I feel it really needs to add more game modes.
Capture the flag
Hutt ball
and Black garden
add those 3 combined with capture the node and I and I think many others may be a tad happier. Thats really all I want right now just more game modes.

I agree, definitely need more variety in game modes to keep things interesting.

Yeah there are rewards in WvW, but there are also upgrades that require money… So I have to pay the repair bill and expected to also pay for upgrades? Some of these upgrades are expensive btw and it’s not like you’re necessarily making bank off WvW. Why should I invest my PvE money into a system that gives me and my server no rewards for being top dog by the end of the week? As it stands, WvW is a nice distraction at best…when it really could be a whole lot more important. A server shouldn’t feel forced to play, but at the same time there should be the incentive to want the win.

Why should I invest my PvE money into a system that gives me and my server no rewards for being top dog by the end of the week?

Winning servers get bonuses to crafting, ghathering, endurance, etc, etc or did you meant something else?

sPVP is good for lowbies and that’s it.

i want something that can pvp with my real gears and with my server though.
Duel , Arena zone etc …

But in sPvP, you get almost nothing for a team win – so if you’re sucky you’ll rank up very slowly. What is it, 5 glory for the win? Your real glory points come from earning the team points.

With respect to costs and WvW — we’re already suffering bot trains taking up our WvW queue spots. If there’s no cost at all, it’ll be the top earning place to go. The WvW mobs are super easy compared to normal lvl 80 zone mobs, yet drop the same stuff.

I imagine they could drop the repair costs if they also would stop having any loot drop from pve mobs in WvW. That’d remove the incentive to go there for botting up gold-sellers.

I like WvW because it’s all about killing the enemy, sPvP is more about capturing and defending…i mean…in sPvP all builds are oriented to do that, holding a point or capture it so it gets quite boring.
In WvW you can just explore the map and make it feel like “World PvP”, it’s not just about zergs. So, WvW has what sPvP offers, and more.

Cancer.9065:

Why should I invest my PvE money into a system that gives me and my server no rewards for being top dog by the end of the week?

Winning servers get bonuses to crafting, ghathering, endurance, etc, etc or did you meant something else?

It’s pretty subtle then? Subtle as in, not worth the investment. Like I said, I’m not making tons of gold from WvW even if I factor out repair costs. And I’m not suggesting we need game breaking bonuses to make it worth our while… but surely there’s some middle ground? The consequences of dying are already there without the need of adding a repair cost.

Good point on the botting, maybe you do almost like a WoW PvP thing where animals and enemies drop resources which are used for various things (additional NPC troops, defenses, upgrades, schematics, etc.). This might also make the WvW more diverse in the zerg-types since it’s capturing points and gathering non-supply resources.

Actually if they cant even afford for repair cost , they probably cant afford any siege weap neither. so keeping them out is not a bad thing.

So stifle the rate at which sieges and defenses can be built? You still need resources for these things… I can carry 100 treb schematics, but if my team doesn’t have the resources to build any of them, they’re 100% useless. The same holds true for defense.

in all honesty, I do not think ArenaNET cares about WvWvW at all

sPVP is their baby, it’s the gateway to GW2’s population explosion. Specifically: ESPORTS

so sPVP is their priority. Sadly, I am beginning to realize that wuvwuv is something meant for casual play, something you join and play and waste time in. This is probably the reason AN has turned a blind eye on all the problems of wuvwuv

sPVP is their focus and their goal is ultimately E-SPORTs.

Look at all the things in sPVP’s pipeline
- tournaments
- spectator mode
- customized tournament battle gear
- customized maps
- tournament winner rewards
- etc etc etc ad infinitum

Look at wuvwuv’s pipeline:
- nothing

the more the weeks go by the more apparent ArenaNET never intended wuvwuv to be as popular as it is. It was simply here for everyone to join and play casually. sPVP is what they’re interested in and their actions all reflect it

true but then u should n’t have problem with repair cost. if u can carry 100 treb.

I completely agree OP.

With my guild we rolled much larger armies by using tactics and coordination.
For instance I was sent with 20 men to setup 1 treb camp to tear down a keep’s wall.
I had my men build carts on a cliff near the entrance, along with a couple Eles, had my guardians use terrain control and timed reflections, got 25 might to all team through combo fields.
We got MASSIVE zergs of people trying to get into the camp and getting rolled every time.

WvW gives great value to battle strategy and tactics, this feature alone is worth the game.

CharliePrince.2071:

the more the weeks go by the more apparent ArenaNET never intended wuvwuv to be as popular as it is. It was simply here for everyone to join and play casually. sPVP is what they’re interested in and their actions all reflect it

I don’t think they are going to get really far with sPvP as it is, it would have better future if the goal was to kill the enemy team because capturing/holding points is REALLY boring and limits the game to a few builds/classes.
They should introduce some sort of arenas 1v1, 2v2 etc, that would be fun.

Punny.9210:

true but then u should n’t have problem with repair cost. if u can carry 100 treb.

A gross overstatement taken out of context…. Because people for repair costs were saying it stifles people from having patterns which is somehow good, even though you still need resources to build.

I’m saying that not having repair costs makes folks less inclined to be frugal on the battlefield… Both in being aggressive on Offense or Defense and carrying plans with them. There’s still tactics involved, there’s still resources need, you’re just eliminating a cost burden so that folks can focus on the task at hand.

Some people are arguing that it would lead to more folks pocketing the rewards instead and promote botting… Then don’t make the rewards/costs gold based? If costs/rewards were purely karma based? Shrug. Not sure that eliminates the bot issue, but it at least keeps gold, and those related issues, in the PvE aspect of the game.

Sleepy.2647:

CharliePrince.2071:

the more the weeks go by the more apparent ArenaNET never intended wuvwuv to be as popular as it is. It was simply here for everyone to join and play casually. sPVP is what they’re interested in and their actions all reflect it

I don’t think they are going to get really far with sPvP as it is, it would have better future if the goal was to kill the enemy team because capturing/holding points is REALLY boring and limits the game to a few builds/classes.
They should introduce some sort of arenas 1v1, 2v2 etc, that would be fun.

well that’s why i started laying down the pipeline for sPVP

ArenaNET is doing so many wonderful things for sPVP and their main goal is to make it E-SPORTS.

Compare the pipeline for sPVP to wuvwuv and it is painfully painfully obvious

ArenaNET’s focus, care and direction is strictly on sPVP

wuvwuv was never meant to become what it has now.. it was supposed to be a casual thing you jump into whenever you get a chance to play

:( my eyes were forcibly opened to this stark reality

I hear people mention spvp in sentences with ‘strategy’ and ‘e-sport’, and other rather confusing terms to my ears.
‘Holding a point’ in spvp? Seriously?
‘You only need 5 people’ well, at least that one is clear.

Are you guys sure you’re discussing the same spvp in this thread?

As far as I can tell, this thread is comparing WvWvW with tpvp at best, not spvp.

This is a very important distinction by the way: the shortcomings of spvp show the state of pvp in this game, and the way the developpers go about pvp here.

Where tpvp is too much the same game mode, at least it’s strategic and requires team work.
I find spvp a poor implementation of a good idea, WvW isn’t exactly perfect either…

tpvp’s biggest shortcoming as a design, aside profession balance, is the fact pugs have to face premades. Something no real pvp game would allow.
As it happens: WvW suffers from simular uneveness in design. For starters because of easy server transfer.

Well for WvW I think their top priority is getting it ready for launch, hopefully not more than a few months too late.

Getting the current game to where it works needs to happen first before you talk about “meta” and whatnot. Besides that, from the start they said the fair-balanced-administered pvp is sPvP. WvW is not for balance, just a big sandbox-like play field.

Kimbald.2697:

tpvp’s biggest shortcoming as a design, aside profession balance, is the fact pugs have to face premades. Something no real pvp game would allow.

What they’ve said is that paid tournaments will not form PUGs for you, only the free tourneys like we have now.

For WvW, I’m pretty sure once they get guesting and the party interface functional, they’ll start charging gems for transfers.

Why WvW Suck

Level > Skill
Gear > Skill

mulch.2586:

Kimbald.2697:

tpvp’s biggest shortcoming as a design, aside profession balance, is the fact pugs have to face premades. Something no real pvp game would allow.

What they’ve said is that paid tournaments will not form PUGs for you, only the free tourneys like we have now.

For WvW, I’m pretty sure once they get guesting and the party interface functional, they’ll start charging gems for transfers.

Not all premades will be doing paid tournaments only.
So what wil they do when not paid tournament?
Normal tournament, that’s what.

And who will be facing these premades testing builds and comps in tpvp?
Right: pugs.

Nothing will change, except hopefully a few les premades, but they’ll still dominate.

The system is flawed as long as it allows premade vs pugs, paid tournaments won’t change that for tpvp, only for the paid ones itself.

Well if you want to pug, there’s free-join games, like usual.

I can’t really see having tournaments for pugs only.

mulch.2586:

Well if you want to pug, there’s free-join games, like usual.

I can’t really see having tournaments for pugs only.

Why not?

Pugs surely shouldn’t be facing premades?
The odds of winning are very very small.

For starters spvp should become 5v5, and than tpvp can stay as it is.
But if spvp stays 8v8, than tpvp must have a pug and a premade bracket yes.

I thought there were going to be tiers to it. I dunno, I’m a lowly deer, haha!

Is it hard to find teammates for sPvP? My guild is kinda casual and doesn’t like skill-focus things I guess, so not a lot of us do pvp in GW2, mostly focus on WvW. So I’ve only done half-pug free tournaments so far.

@Polle.6908

Or ,you could just waypoint back to your main camp just before they breach the walls/gate :P You don’t have to die.

@ Bruno

I dont die more than 5 times per day and i gain around 1g per day. [ even when my server was losing ]

if u die a lot then u need to improve ur skill some more or stop suiciding.

Speaking of WvW and Spvp.

Would anyone else love a fusion of the two?

DAoC style battlegrounds anyone? >=]

Knote.2904:

Speaking of WvW and Spvp.

Would anyone else love a fusion of the two?

DAoC style battlegrounds anyone? >=]

I don’t get what you mean.

I do wish we’d have some maps that aren’t all just like Khylo/Capricorn/FoeFire/the-unpronouncable-one.

alcopaul.2156:

I’ve played both modes. And I must say that WvWvW is more tactical than structured PvP.

Why? If you’re a commander, you have to control your attack team which comprises of multiple types of players, communicate with other commanders, decide if you gank incoming hoards of enemies or storm a post and what not.

sPvP, you have to get to know your skills well and try to end up winning.

I could point out a real life equivalents of both types.

Imagine when Richard the Lionhart went from England to capture the Holy Land? His army were not just composed of trained men but with commonfolks too. This is akin to WvWvW mixture of types of players. You have well equipped and traited players and you have your upscaled players.

Coordinating a zerg requires that you must know real life military tactics to actually pull it off. I would guess that good commanders in WvWvW are or have experience in the military.

sPvP? It’s a like sports. It’s controlled environment. It’s like faux warfare. And no one plays sports 24/7.

What do you think? Do you agree with me?

I agree fully with your opinions of WvWvW.

It’s absolutely amazing and I’ve been addicted to it for weeks. It requires patience, lateral thinking, teamwork, the majority of people think it’s about ‘numbers’ and ‘winning, but they’re doing it wrong. Getting steam rolled off the map, you can organize 10 people, wait it out (after the initial dust of defeat settles), go out, take a tower before the enemy wakes up, fortify it with siege, and you can hold off a zerg with it. That then sets up a platform for the rest of your server to get back into the map.

There are so many things that are beyond your control and what’s is one of the attractions of it, it’s so raw with just about zero rules, 24 hour fighting, it’s up to the players to decide how they are going to go about their battles.

I’m very very disappointed to hear the ‘exciting announcement’ regarding teams that have been wiped off the map, the biggest cause for this is impatience and not being able to deal with the loss by giving up. There is never a need to be spawn camped, there are 3 exits, the other 2 are rarely used and I’ve never seen them guarded.

Most people that play WvWvW (and it’s still very popular) are having the time of their lives, I really hope that arenanet doesn’t listen to the people that don’t even play it and prefer ‘fair’ controlled environments such as sPvP.

The only thing that needs to be fixed is server transfers, it’s destroying communities, it also destroyed the community that I held so dear back in World of Warcraft many years ago and the exact same thing is happening in Guild Wars 2. If people haven’t figured out how to play on the same server as their friends yet, then they are never going to learn.

They offer different things, pointless thread. I like them both.

Even though WvW has some issues, I find it much more enjoyable than sPvP and would even if I ran with a premade group. Since I don’t, sPvP isn’t even fun. I jump in once in awhile to see what a specific class or build will do at 80, and that’s it.

alcopaul.2156:

Imagine when Richard the Lionhart went from England to capture the Holy Land? His army were not just composed of trained men but with commonfolks too. This is akin to WvWvW mixture of types of players. You have well equipped and traited players and you have your upscaled players.

Coordinating a zerg requires that you must know real life military tactics to actually pull it off. I would guess that good commanders in WvWvW are or have experience in the military.

had Richard the Lionhart been a GW2 player, he would have either

a) amassed a worldwide army that outnumbered the entire muslim forces 10 to 1, then attacked them while they were sleeping

or, most likely

b) joined the muslims and “transfered” his army with him.
of course if the christians were able to recover from that blow and proved to be stronger he would just switch allegiance again

so nawp, I disagree with you. W3 is largely pure bullcrap at the moment