Guild Wars 2

I’ll just start by saying that I don’t understand aggro mechanics, and if they are clear as day, please enlighten me.

So…

I’ve been playing the game on and off for about 4 years now, and I still don’t have a grasp on aggro mechanics. I tried to look it up on the wiki, and even the wiki couldn’t say for certain how mobs prioritize targets, and the only class that seems to have a taunt is revenant.

I get why they did it, they wanted to do away with the usual triangle of healer, DPS and tanks and let everybody play in whatever way they wanted…

But that just makes it harder for people who actually want to tank and take mob attention away from allies to do that. You could’ve geared up with a toughness and healing focus specifically for that purpose, but what good does it do when mobs just targets whoever but you? And if DPS are supposed to limit the amount of damage they do, then that just defeats the purpose of a DPS…

While it kind of opens up playstyles, it also limits them… In my limited opinion.

I wish they could at least explain how aggro mechanics work within the game itself.

I don’t know for sure but I think different enemies have different aggro mechanics.

Some will target the person with the highest toughness, some will pick the one doing the most damage, some seem to just pick the closest person and with some it’s virtually impossible to tell because either the majority of their attacks are AoE’s or most people fight them in melee range and they have cleave attacks so they’re always hitting multiple people.

But in most cases I don’t think it matters because this isn’t the only thing they did to remove the trinity system. The way defense is set up no one really needs a tank, even a glass cannon build can avoid, mitigate or heal most damage and so keep themselves alive without needing a dedicated protector.

It might be different in raids, I don’t know enough about how they work to be sure, but that would be the only exception.

Completely anecdotal thoughts are about to follow:

I believe the aggro mechanics are different depending on which map you’re on, and possibly even down to the type of mob you’re facing. I think Anet has even played with these mechanics since the HoT launch, especially in portions of the raids.

It may that the aggro mechanics are more varied than vague, making it even harder to test, let alone define.

I don’t understand aggro either but I definitely don’t believe in “Toughness aggro”! I have a full Knight Necro (maxed Toughness) and I don’t get targeted more often than other people. You know the blighting towers at Dragon’s Stand? When we run in circles, the first person who runs into the mobs gets targeted. And then it just looks random. Sometimes I can run through mobs with only a couple of hits, sometimes they all jump on me! The only difference is that others die and I don’t. XD Edit: Pretty much the same thing in other open world content and instances, btw. I don’t get targeted more often than others.

The “toughness aggro” used to exist much more than it does currently, and then it got phased out because it was boring play for one person to kite around for a boss while everyone else stood still and plunked away at it. It was pretty hilarious back when my husband and I used to go out with his super toughness guardian and I’d have my zerker warrior and could just chill out for a whole fight. Probably funnier for me than it was for him, though.

I believe the reason you’re having trouble finding a rule is that they’ve programmed a variety of aggro rules that vary depending on monster, encounter, team makeup, etc. So there isn’t one rule.

It is not vague. It is just not one size fits all.

Also some skills are only used against targets outside or within a certain range.

So it seems… That the aggro mechanic is all over the place because they want it to be.

Alright.

Shrug

It’s vague because they can customize aggro based on each enemy type. I’ve seen “smarter” critters break off to go after downed or healers. Some simply focus on DPS, others toughness. It makes sense in a game with no pure tanks and few methods of taunt.

So, can we conclude then that the game old “don’t bring more toughness than the ‘tank’” isn’t valid anymore (for aggro reasons that is, since mobs in this game doesn’t care for whoever thinks of themselves as ‘the tank’)?

OGDeadHead.8326:

So, can we conclude then that the game old “don’t bring more toughness than the ‘tank’” isn’t valid anymore (for aggro reasons that is, since mobs in this game doesn’t care for whoever thinks of themselves as ‘the tank’)?

That was never 100% valid in this game. Bosses, especially new ones, have always used an AI to decide on the target. It could be any of the following:

• First to damage or most recent to damage
• Lowest health
• Highest toughness.
• Nearest target or farthest target.
• Doing the most damage.

Veteran and elite mobs tend to be single-minded about their targets, while higher-end bosses tend to be discerning.

I’ve always thought the traditional RPG model of bosses going after the highest-toughness player was silly. As players, we choose the easiest to kill (since a mob with 1 HP does the same damage as one with 100%), the one the most damage, the one that interferes with our tactics the most… or generally, whichever mob is the biggest threat or the easiest to neutralize. Why would our foes pick the single target that was the most difficult to kill?

Doesn’t it make much more sense for the tougher mobs try to figure out their biggest threat (or the target easiest to neutralize)? I realize they aren’t all that good at it, because the AI is pretty simplistic sometimes. Still, I far prefer this system of not having a single, clearcut aggro mechanic. This forces everyone to be ready to be the focus and for everyone to learn how to grab aggro.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

OGDeadHead.8326:

So, can we conclude then that the game old “don’t bring more toughness than the ‘tank’” isn’t valid anymore (for aggro reasons that is, since mobs in this game doesn’t care for whoever thinks of themselves as ‘the tank’)?

That was never 100% valid in this game. Bosses, especially new ones, have always used an AI to decide on the target. It could be any of the following:

• First to damage or most recent to damage
• Lowest health
• Highest toughness.
• Nearest target or farthest target.
• Doing the most damage.

Veteran and elite mobs tend to be single-minded about their targets, while higher-end bosses tend to be discerning.

I’ve always thought the traditional RPG model of bosses going after the highest-toughness player was silly. As players, we choose the easiest to kill (since a mob with 1 HP does the same damage as one with 100%), the one the most damage, the one that interferes with our tactics the most… or generally, whichever mob is the biggest threat or the easiest to neutralize. Why would our foes pick the single target that was the most difficult to kill?

Doesn’t it make much more sense for the tougher mobs try to figure out their biggest threat (or the target easiest to neutralize)? I realize they aren’t all that good at it, because the AI is pretty simplistic sometimes. Still, I far prefer this system of not having a single, clearcut aggro mechanic. This forces everyone to be ready to be the focus and for everyone to learn how to grab aggro.

I agree. I think it makes much more sense for different enemies to decide who to target in different ways, and for some of them to decide in the same way players would. (Others less so, I can imagine it’d be more realistic for a drake to go for whoever hit them first, or did the most damage, rather than using elaborate tactics.)

Danikat.8537:

(Others less so, I can imagine it’d be more realistic for a drake to go for whoever hit them first, or did the most damage, rather than using elaborate tactics.)

Right — I meant to say that, too: simple foes should have simple aggro mechanics (although again: not necessarily obvious) and grand foes should consider a variety of factors. Drakes focus on the first to hit them while spiders target the slowest and harpies go after the weakest. That, too, is much more interesting than the usual RPG.

I’d still like to see high-end mobs decide not to follow us around a corner and then wait in a Meteor Shower for Spring. Raid & fractal bosses mostly don’t do that because they move around so much, but not because they are smart enough to avoid the obvious.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Danikat.8537:

(Others less so, I can imagine it’d be more realistic for a drake to go for whoever hit them first, or did the most damage, rather than using elaborate tactics.)

Right — I meant to say that, too: simple foes should have simple aggro mechanics (although again: not necessarily obvious) and grand foes should consider a variety of factors. Drakes focus on the first to hit them while spiders target the slowest and harpies go after the weakest. That, too, is much more interesting than the usual RPG.

I’d still like to see high-end mobs decide not to follow us around a corner and then wait in a Meteor Shower for Spring. Raid & fractal bosses mostly don’t do that because they move around so much, but not because they are smart enough to avoid the obvious.

Some enemies create the illusion of doing that. I was joking in the Labyrinth that someone needs to teach the gargoyles to stack because it’s annoying that they come out the door and go in all directions, then realised that’s actually much more sensible than standing in a stack of AoE’s. But I agree it would be nice to see some of them actually reacting sensibly to what players do.

Although part of the problem with that is beyond a certain point making enemies react sensibly can’t be done with pre-written rules and starts to require actual AI, where the computer is genuinely learning from encounters with players and reacting to them. Which firstly requires more processing power but also can run into problems where computers do not think like people and will do things that are unfair or seem bugged. For example if a wurm was given the ability to adapt it’s tactics and ‘told’ it’s top priority was to avoid getting killed it might just decide to stay underground indefinitely.

And without actual AI players can learn and adapt much faster than the enemies. If one is programmed to move out of AoE players will just stop using them, if it moves around a lot they’ll immobalise it and so on and it becomes little more than another ‘gimmick’ of that particular fight.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

OGDeadHead.8326:

So, can we conclude then that the game old “don’t bring more toughness than the ‘tank’” isn’t valid anymore (for aggro reasons that is, since mobs in this game doesn’t care for whoever thinks of themselves as ‘the tank’)?

That was never 100% valid in this game. Bosses, especially new ones, have always used an AI to decide on the target. It could be any of the following:

• First to damage or most recent to damage
• Lowest health
• Highest toughness.
• Nearest target or farthest target.
• Doing the most damage.

And quite possibly a mix or none of the above as well?

I agree, yet you often hear “don’t bring more toughness than the ‘tank’” every now and then. I think this ‘myth’ is busted.
Whether it’s optimal to run with high toughness if you’re not ‘tanking’ (lol) is another question completly, but imho it’s not a argument for breaking aggro from the tank, since the mechanics in this game simply doesn’t work that way.

I think I’ve yet to see mobs stand still and only hammer away on the wanna-be tank in this game…

More anecdote:
Last night, I was fighting a White Mantle Mesmer with a stranger. She was fairly high on damage and the first to engage, closer than me. Mesmer still decided I was the one that needed to get hit. :\ Not offended at the damage itself (easily survivable), but I mean, c’mon, the ranger was right there.
I’ve a sneaking suspicion that the particular enemy targets the farthest enemy to make use of its Spatial Surge-esque attack.

Well, from what I’ve heard and anecdotal evidence of my own, I believe proximity, damage dealt, and toughness are probably factors at least some of the time.

I’ve noticed that against some enemies they simply won’t touch me if a class that typically has some additional toughness is present. I figure that has to be the toughness.

Other enemies I either hold their attention continuously, or it seems to swap back and forth. It’s more difficult to tell. Is this proximity? Does it drop target because I dodged out and then jumped back in? Or is it maybe damage dealt? I was the primary target because I was dealing the most damage, but when forced to evade out another player surpasses me? Is it total damage dealt or damage over a certain period of time?

I’m not sure there’s a good way to know for sure.

Behellagh.1468:

It’s vague because they can customize aggro based on each enemy type. I’ve seen “smarter” critters break off to go after downed or healers. Some simply focus on DPS, others toughness. It makes sense in a game with no pure tanks and few methods of taunt.

Yeah, I know at least one Legendary Bandit Executioner will almost always prioritize downed opponents. I like that he did as it made the fight feel pretty intense.

TwiceDead.1963:

So it seems… That the aggro mechanic is all over the place because they want it to be.

Alright.

Shrug

One of the hallmarks of GW2 is moving away from the rigidly defined roles of tank/heals/dps. You can’t very well do that with simple aggro rules. That’s where the concept of tanking comes from: load up a character with health/armor, etc. and use simple aggro rules to force all enemies to focus that target. GW2 just doesn’t do much of that.

Rauderi.8706:

More anecdote:
Last night, I was fighting a White Mantle Mesmer with a stranger. She was fairly high on damage and the first to engage, closer than me. Mesmer still decided I was the one that needed to get hit. :\ Not offended at the damage itself (easily survivable), but I mean, c’mon, the ranger was right there.
I’ve a sneaking suspicion that the particular enemy targets the farthest enemy to make use of its Spatial Surge-esque attack.

In Bloodstone Fen I encountered that often. When fighting in a group, spatial surge was used on my character and I was the farthest away.

If you have an hour to kill, here’s the presentation at GDC 2015 of the revamped AI engine they introduced with HoT.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1021848/Building-a-Better-Centaur-AI

Greener.6204:

Completely anecdotal thoughts are about to follow:

I believe the aggro mechanics are different depending on which map you’re on, and possibly even down to the type of mob you’re facing. I think Anet has even played with these mechanics since the HoT launch, especially in portions of the raids.

It may that the aggro mechanics are more varied than vague, making it even harder to test, let alone define.

If thats true, thats awesome.

Danikat.8537:

Some enemies create the illusion of doing that. I was joking in the Labyrinth that someone needs to teach the gargoyles to stack because it’s annoying that they come out the door and go in all directions, then realised that’s actually much more sensible than standing in a stack of AoE’s. But I agree it would be nice to see some of them actually reacting sensibly to what players do.

They should be dead before they have a chance to move apart. :P

And without actual AI players can learn and adapt much faster than the enemies. If one is programmed to move out of AoE players will just stop using them, if it moves around a lot they’ll immobalise it and so on and it becomes little more than another ‘gimmick’ of that particular fight.

Player skill balance would also need to be very different for that type of situation. Mobs did move out of AoEs during one of the first beta weekends. That didn’t end well. Constantly running mobs would also make melee characters very annoying to play.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

OGDeadHead.8326:

So, can we conclude then that the game old “don’t bring more toughness than the ‘tank’” isn’t valid anymore (for aggro reasons that is, since mobs in this game doesn’t care for whoever thinks of themselves as ‘the tank’)?

That was never 100% valid in this game. Bosses, especially new ones, have always used an AI to decide on the target. It could be any of the following:

• First to damage or most recent to damage
• Lowest health
• Highest toughness.
• Nearest target or farthest target.
• Doing the most damage.

And quite possibly a mix or none of the above as well?

I agree, yet you often hear “don’t bring more toughness than the ‘tank’” every now and then. I think this ‘myth’ is busted.
Whether it’s optimal to run with high toughness if you’re not ‘tanking’ (lol) is another question completly, but imho it’s not a argument for breaking aggro from the tank, since the mechanics in this game simply doesn’t work that way.

I think I’ve yet to see mobs stand still and only hammer away on the wanna-be tank in this game…

Uh yes and no. The only place where “bring a tank” is relevant are raids and bosses there DO use that specific rule.