Guild Wars 2

Rapid, Carrion, Rampager

They all just do terrible damage compared to berzerker. Why is this? Why would anyone ever want to play a condition build in PvE when every class has an infinity more powerful in every single way berzerker build?

I mean, even condition necros do awful damage compared do a berzerker necro build.

Is it just that rampager’s is terrible (mainstat percision wtf) and rapid and carrion both only have 2 offensive stats?

Is it that condition duration has a cap at 100% where crit damage is infinite?

Who knows, all I know is that condition builds are bad, and people should feel bad about them.

Source

Because 10 * 10 > 10 + 10

Scootabuser.4915:

Rapid, Carrion, Rampager

They all just do terrible damage compared to berzerker. Why is this? Why would anyone ever want to play a condition build in PvE when every class has an infinity more powerful in every single way berzerker build?

I mean, even condition necros do awful damage compared do a berzerker necro build.

Is it just that rampager’s is terrible (mainstat percision wtf) and rapid and carrion both only have 2 offensive stats?

Is it that condition duration has a cap at 100% where crit damage is infinite?

Who knows, all I know is that condition builds are bad, and people should feel bad about them.

Source

condition is more a pvp thing

it ignores all forms of armor and damage reduction, not even invulnerability can stop it (can stop reapplication but once they are ticking they will continue to do so until removed or finished)

A condi necro is probably one of the scariests things around, they will bleed the crrap out of you

Scootabuser.4915:

Why would anyone ever want to play a condition build in PvE when every class has an infinity more powerful in every single way berzerker build?

Because not everyone uses maximized damage output as the main factor in deciding their characters’ build and play style.

Scootabuser.4915:

Rapid, Carrion, Rampager

They all just do terrible damage compared to berzerker. Why is this? Why would anyone ever want to play a condition build in PvE when every class has an infinity more powerful in every single way berzerker build?

I mean, even condition necros do awful damage compared do a berzerker necro build.

Is it just that rampager’s is terrible (mainstat percision wtf) and rapid and carrion both only have 2 offensive stats?

Is it that condition duration has a cap at 100% where crit damage is infinite?

Who knows, all I know is that condition builds are bad, and people should feel bad about them.

Source

Why play it. hmmm…

Because a DoT spec is fun to play. If I wasn’t in WvW most of the time I would go to condition Necro for PvE.

Shufflepants.9785:

Because 10 * 10 > 10 + 10

This is exactly why. However with the advent of Giver’s gear & food it is now possible to at least get to:

10*10 (Berserker) > 10*5 (Vatlaaws/Carron). P.S. I know they have more surivablity, but there isn’t another stat that adds to damage.

They really need to have gear that gives the stats of:
Precision/Condition Dmg(the max stat)/Condition Duration (5% per piece)

That is the only way that condition damage will be somewhere on par with Berserker. This would give builds like the Engineer and other condition users more viable builds.

Until then condition damage will always be weaker and people will continue to run without condition removal in WvW.

Goloith.6349:

Until then condition damage will always be weaker and people will continue to run without condition removal in WvW.

LOL what? ppl that run in WvW without any condition removal don’t last very long.

Goloith.6349:

Shufflepants.9785:

Because 10 * 10 > 10 + 10

This is exactly why. However with the advent of Giver’s gear & food it is now possible to at least get to:

10*10 (Berserker) > 10*5 (Vatlaaws/Carron). P.S. I know they have more surivablity, but there isn’t another stat that adds to damage.

They really need to have gear that gives the stats of:
Precision/Condition Dmg(the max stat)/Condition Duration (5% per piece)

That is the only way that condition damage will be somewhere on par with Berserker. This would give builds like the Engineer and other condition users more viable builds.

Until then condition damage will always be weaker and people will continue to run without condition removal in WvW.

So you are one of those that continue to attack while my confusion ticks on you for 3k per hit. It never fails to amaze me how many ppl die from confusion when almost all classes have at least on condition removal skill.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Scootabuser.4915:

Why would anyone ever want to play a condition build in PvE when every class has an infinity more powerful in every single way berzerker build?

Because not everyone uses maximized damage output as the main factor in deciding their characters’ build and play style.

Condition damage barely helps in PvE though. Heals, boons and so on offer other options, also conditions like vulnerability, cripple and so on, but they’re again not affected by conditon damage. And then there’s the stack cap and Defiant. Lots of condition hate in PvE. Let’s not even talk about confusion.

Iruwen.3164:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Scootabuser.4915:

Why would anyone ever want to play a condition build in PvE when every class has an infinity more powerful in every single way berzerker build?

Because not everyone uses maximized damage output as the main factor in deciding their characters’ build and play style.

Condition damage barely helps in PvE though. Heals, boons and so on offer other options, also conditions like vulnerability, cripple and so on, but they’re again not affected by conditon damage. And then there’s the stack cap and Defiant. Lots of condition hate in PvE. Let’s not even talk about confusion.

The stack cap really ruins it. That is why I changed my necro to power. If you have more than 1 condition applier in your group you are really kitten I keep my condition gear handy thoug hcuz I like dot specs.

I think there are maybe two exceptions to this that are noteworthy.

Rabid Undead rune Necromancer Builds
This is ideally suited for a Necromancer in PvE for many reasons, notably that toughness converts into a greater condition dps, doubles as a defensive stat, precision boosts the already significant chance to bleed on hit, and condition damage is self-explanatory.

Rampager Engineer Condition Damage Builds
Due to the mid-range nature of the Engineer and the fact that its P/P weapon set has access to every single one of the damaging conditions in the game, it actually sees an exceptional return on condition damage, and can do a significant amount of damage without much loss from having no defensive stats. It also picks up a lot from traits that add damaging conditions on crits, much like the Necromancer does.

Outside of these, I don’t think PvE builds really get much out of condition damage. Having tried both, I can say with absolute certainty that a berserker Ranger is worlds better than a trap condition damage ranger in PvE. There are other cases I’ve tried as well with similar results.

It’s also worth noting that because everyone has a taboo against condition damage in many groups, you’ll find fewer players utilizing it, and thus run a significantly reduced chance of hitting the stack cap frequently. Call it the silver lining, I suppose.

Because you need 3 stats (Power+Precision+Crit Damage) to deal direct damage.

And you need only Condition Damage for conditions.

It would be OP if it dealt same damage as zerks.

conditions can be cleansed and in effect only do a small amount of their damage, 4k direct damage is 4k damage, not to mention conditions are only good group vs group, 1 on 1 the pure damage will usually win.

Isslair.4908:

Because you need 3 stats (Power+Precision+Crit Damage) to deal direct damage.

And you need only Condition Damage for conditions.

It would be OP if it dealt same damage as zerks.

Depends on the class. For example, condition damage mesmers usually need precision as well as condition damage, because the main condition aplied reliably are bleeds that are applied from illusion crits (the other ones being staff based that are random).

Crit damage is out of control in PvE and WvW. While i don’t think Rabid should do the same as zerk since Rabid has toughness, i think an equal stat set should be available for Condis. Rampager kinda tried to go there but flopped.

Isslair.4908:

Because you need 3 stats (Power+Precision+Crit Damage) to deal direct damage.

And you need only Condition Damage for conditions.

It would be OP if it dealt same damage as zerks.

You have three stats available to increase direct damage and only two that increase condition damage. Also condition damage und duration are only considered secondary attributes that don’t automatically increase when leveling, for direct damage this is only true for critical damage.

Condition damage is more or less capped at the moment. Damage over time caps out at about 4k per second, if a character can maintain full bleeding, burning and poison, while fully traited in their condition damage line, using condition damage food and sigil of corruption, with condition damage as main stat on all gear.

Berserker damage varies on class, but generally gets as high if not higher, while having no ramp up time for building bleed stacks. Especially when you consider how many damage multipliers most classes can trait into that don’t affect condition damage at all (warrior can get up to 40% damage bonus or so from traits, but those same traits will never affect their bleed output, for example)

Would kill for traits like “your bleeding deals 10% more damage”.

In pve sure, zerker is the way to go, anyways, most bosses one shot so there is no point to go for toughness or vit, just get more damage to finish the boss faster, less boss atacks, less change you won’t dodge one of them.
Because let’s face it, it’s a core issue, they wanted pve doable by every spec, they didn’t want to force people to have tank or healer, so no agro, no healer. In the end, because there is no agro and no healer, it’s just dps and dodging, that’s it, so you learn the boss tricks, dodge them and dps them.

You’re forgetting conditions are not purely about damage; indeed the only conditions that are pure damage sources are burning and bleeding.

Poison serves as both damage, and is a counter to healing and all other conditions don’t even deal direct damage themselves. If condition damage was equal to direct damage, then it’d be a no brainer whether to roll direct or condition – condition, obviously, because then not only do you get decent damage, you’d also get to slap your opponent silly with debuffs for the same gear set

Thus, the average DPS of conditions needs to be lower than the average DPS of direct damage sets.

It’s also worth remembering that conditions cannot “crit” mitigating the need for precision in many condition builds – so, again, conditions give you all the bang for only 1 stat (condition damage), Vs direct damage which usually needs to be tempered with precision AND power

Ryuujin.8236:

You’re forgetting conditions are not purely about damage; indeed the only conditions that are pure damage sources are burning and bleeding.

Poison serves as both damage, and is a counter to healing and all other conditions don’t even deal direct damage themselves. If condition damage was equal to direct damage, then it’d be a no brainer whether to roll direct or condition – condition, obviously, because then not only do you get decent damage, you’d also get to slap your opponent silly with debuffs for the same gear set

Thus, the average DPS of conditions needs to be lower than the average DPS of direct damage sets.

It’s also worth remembering that conditions cannot “crit” mitigating the need for precision in many condition builds – so, again, conditions give you all the bang for only 1 stat (condition damage), Vs direct damage which usually needs to be tempered with precision AND power

No disrespect but you make it sounds like condition build has so many benefit over direct damage…..
1) condition cannot crit is a disadvantage rather than removing the need for precision.
2) condition can benefit from crits via certain traits and sigil, although not as beneficial as direct damage build.
3) condition damage has an inherent disadvantage that’s taking a long time to do all of the damage and has the risk of being removal.
4) condition build often need condition duration stats which isn’t even available on armor and only available via runes.

My zerker war’s auto 1 is probably equals to 20s of 1 stack bleed from my necro. Although you can also say it means 1s of 20 stack bleed but then you have to calculate the time it takes to build that 20 stack.

Also remember that a condition build’s greatest enemy is an inanimate object.

Condition builds = Long strategic fighters
zerker builds = Faceroll and hope the enemy dies first.

I have a thief which was my main for a long time and I now run a condition necro so I know the difference. while it was fun to instagib people I got bored and wanted a challenge.

Big numbers vs massives of small numbers will always look better to some people. Sure conditions might be lacking a bit in PvE, but in WvW they just destroy. Running around with close to 3k armor, 21k HP+ (depending on WvW buffs) and 1600condi unbuffed is alot of fun in WvW.

GCs melt in seconds, and it’s very easy to reapply condis. Plus you have alot of defense from high armor, high health (well not THAT high) and forms. It’s also not hard to get 18-20 stacks of bleeds fast on the enemy, at which point they tick down quickly.

For me its roughly 2250/sec with 15 stacks, something that is very easy to apply. And the chance for them to cleanse the bleed is small, since they have weakness, chill, blind and poison to deal with too.

However condition classes need skill to handle, well, experience with playing the class. You need to know when to use which skill vs which class and so on.

For PvE condi necros are amazing tanks. Very easy to hold and get aggro, they are annoying on inanimate encounters (blizzard fractal mid event), other than that they deal great sustained damage. Only downside is, you really only ever need one necro, since they pretty much keep their stacks close to 25 on their own, if you bring more, they will be in eachothers way when it comes to stacks. For events conditions are boring and needs a rework, but condition specs are far from weak.

Afya.5842:

Ryuujin.8236:

You’re forgetting conditions are not purely about damage; indeed the only conditions that are pure damage sources are burning and bleeding.

Poison serves as both damage, and is a counter to healing and all other conditions don’t even deal direct damage themselves. If condition damage was equal to direct damage, then it’d be a no brainer whether to roll direct or condition – condition, obviously, because then not only do you get decent damage, you’d also get to slap your opponent silly with debuffs for the same gear set

Thus, the average DPS of conditions needs to be lower than the average DPS of direct damage sets.

It’s also worth remembering that conditions cannot “crit” mitigating the need for precision in many condition builds – so, again, conditions give you all the bang for only 1 stat (condition damage), Vs direct damage which usually needs to be tempered with precision AND power

No disrespect but you make it sounds like condition build has so many benefit over direct damage…..
1) condition cannot crit is a disadvantage rather than removing the need for precision.
2) condition can benefit from crits via certain traits and sigil, although not as beneficial as direct damage build.
3) condition damage has an inherent disadvantage that’s taking a long time to do all of the damage and has the risk of being removal.
4) condition build often need condition duration stats which isn’t even available on armor and only available via runes.

My zerker war’s auto 1 is probably equals to 20s of 1 stack bleed from my necro. Although you can also say it means 1s of 20 stack bleed but then you have to calculate the time it takes to build that 20 stack.

Not that I disagree with you, but just pointing out that condition duration stats are available on armor. Search for Giver’s.

sostronk.8167:

Not that I disagree with you, but just pointing out that condition duration stats are available on armor. Search for Giver’s.

Giver’s armor gives boon duration. Only Giver’s weapons give condition duration. A total of 20% between MH/OH or 2H.

Condition is better for pvp. It’s obvious condition damage is not very efficient in pve as pure DPS but it is a reliable source of sustained damage in long boss fights and is very “noob friendly”.

Most condition build are very tanky and easy to use. Heck I was a bleed warrior before switching over to DPS. Great sustained damage I tell ya! Awesome survivability too.

Ruprect.7260:

So you are one of those that continue to attack while my confusion ticks on you for 3k per hit. It never fails to amaze me how many ppl die from confusion when almost all classes have at least on condition removal skill.

LOL well said sir

because it’s fun!
If my warrior was in power build, he would deal more damage, sure, but dealing 10k bleeding every sword swing just feels so fun.

Fortus.6175:

Scootabuser.4915:

Rapid, Carrion, Rampager

They all just do terrible damage compared to berzerker. Why is this? Why would anyone ever want to play a condition build in PvE when every class has an infinity more powerful in every single way berzerker build?

I mean, even condition necros do awful damage compared do a berzerker necro build.

Is it just that rampager’s is terrible (mainstat percision wtf) and rapid and carrion both only have 2 offensive stats?

Is it that condition duration has a cap at 100% where crit damage is infinite?

Who knows, all I know is that condition builds are bad, and people should feel bad about them.

Source

condition is more a pvp thing

it ignores all forms of armor and damage reduction, not even invulnerability can stop it (can stop reapplication but once they are ticking they will continue to do so until removed or finished)

A condi necro is probably one of the scariests things around, they will bleed the crrap out of you

actually condition engi is much better as necro. Best thing is if necro and engi are working together )
In PvE i see no point to you much condition, as there are only few location where you have much enemys in one group.

power builds are certainly much better for pve but i’d like anet to do something to equal it with condi builds.

A lot of bosses have periodic condition removal as well. I won’t even consider taking my condi necro into CoE for example.

Scootabuser.4915:

Rapid, Carrion, Rampager

They all just do terrible damage compared to berzerker. Why is this? Why would anyone ever want to play a condition build in PvE when every class has an infinity more powerful in every single way berzerker build?

I mean, even condition necros do awful damage compared do a berzerker necro build.

Is it just that rampager’s is terrible (mainstat percision wtf) and rapid and carrion both only have 2 offensive stats?

Is it that condition duration has a cap at 100% where crit damage is infinite?

Who knows, all I know is that condition builds are bad, and people should feel bad about them.

Source

Because the game has some serious flaws and a good percentage can’t see it or aren’t willing to see it, also another percentage seem to like it like that..

So you are one of those that continue to attack while my confusion ticks on you for 3k per hit. It never fails to amaze me how many ppl die from confusion when almost all classes have at least on condition removal skill.

Not true, Ranger has a random trait (if you can take it in your build) the removes every 10sec and a signet that removes every 10 sec, that is terribly too long, you can have a string of conditions on you and be dead in less than 10 secs..

Ryuujin.8236:

You’re forgetting conditions are not purely about damage; indeed the only conditions that are pure damage sources are burning and bleeding.

Poison serves as both damage, and is a counter to healing and all other conditions don’t even deal direct damage themselves. If condition damage was equal to direct damage, then it’d be a no brainer whether to roll direct or condition – condition, obviously, because then not only do you get decent damage, you’d also get to slap your opponent silly with debuffs for the same gear set

Thus, the average DPS of conditions needs to be lower than the average DPS of direct damage sets.

It’s also worth remembering that conditions cannot “crit” mitigating the need for precision in many condition builds – so, again, conditions give you all the bang for only 1 stat (condition damage), Vs direct damage which usually needs to be tempered with precision AND power

Condition builds may not NEED precision, but they can get slightly whacked into forcing the issue. Engis and Necros both share c.damage and precision in the same trait lines, and everyone has to go into their power lines if they want condition duration.

And, of course, all this assumes the traits that benefit your condition build are even in those lines in the first place… with all this, there’s a lot of pressure to NOT focus on condition builds and opt for power/precision. Which I think is a bit lame. Why not put condition duration and damage in the same line, at least for necros?

Ribos.8350:

Ryuujin.8236:

You’re forgetting conditions are not purely about damage; indeed the only conditions that are pure damage sources are burning and bleeding.

Poison serves as both damage, and is a counter to healing and all other conditions don’t even deal direct damage themselves. If condition damage was equal to direct damage, then it’d be a no brainer whether to roll direct or condition – condition, obviously, because then not only do you get decent damage, you’d also get to slap your opponent silly with debuffs for the same gear set

Thus, the average DPS of conditions needs to be lower than the average DPS of direct damage sets.

It’s also worth remembering that conditions cannot “crit” mitigating the need for precision in many condition builds – so, again, conditions give you all the bang for only 1 stat (condition damage), Vs direct damage which usually needs to be tempered with precision AND power

Condition builds may not NEED precision, but they can get slightly whacked into forcing the issue. Engis and Necros both share c.damage and precision in the same trait lines, and everyone has to go into their power lines if they want condition duration.

And, of course, all this assumes the traits that benefit your condition build are even in those lines in the first place… with all this, there’s a lot of pressure to NOT focus on condition builds and opt for power/precision. Which I think is a bit lame. Why not put condition duration and damage in the same line, at least for necros?

Adding to that, most classes have traits which deal with adding some form of condition on critical hits, and then there’s the Sigil of Earth. Crits are far from simply being damage bonuses in this game, as just about any class can build in such a way that they have benefits related to other stats as well.

Case in point, I’ve got an elementalist running Burning Precision (fire trait; 33% chance of burning on crit), sigil of earth (30% chance of bleeding on crit; 2 sec CD) and renewing stamina (100% chance of 5 seconds of vigor on crit; 5 sec CD). It regularly reaches permanent vigor, burning and 22-25 stacks of bleeding, but only does that because I’ve got high precision stats on it, resulting in a 50% crit rate.

Other classes can do similar things. Warriors, rangers, engineers and necromancers can all get bleeding on critical hits, though it’s not very useful on rangers/necromancers due to short duration. Mesmers get bleeding when their illusions crit. Thieves and Guardians are the only professions that get no direct benefit to condition damage output from precision, which is really surprising in the case of thieves, but less so for guardians, who only seem to be capable of burning things.

The biggest issue with condition vs direct damage is that while we both benefit from crit in most cases, direct damage benefits a lot more in terms of raw damage. Condition builds get a -chance- of an extra 1-8 second bleed which may not even add 50% to the final damage of the attack. Direct damage gets a flat 50% which can be further increased by a common gear stat; condition duration requires dedicated rune, sigil and food slots to be used and has a series of breakpoints. For example, my elementalist needs 16.66% condition duration to get any more damage out of Stone Shards, any less is meaningless… and sometimes a condition build can reach the point where any more is also meaningless. Direct damage has the luxury of 1% always being better than 2% and so on forever.

And then there’s the condition cap, which hardcaps condition damage. But last we heard, ANet are working on something for that.

Condition damage such as burning and bleeding means you can do damage while you are dodging or running away. So in terms of actual dps you can actually do more than a zerk build where you hit a few times and run/dodge most of the time or stay dead.

Condition damage is an incredibly powerful stat on a lot of characters.

The main problem it has is that against trash mobs they’ll tend to explode before your conditions have a change to do any work, while against actually difficult foes you run into massively hostile mechanics (half condition duration on a large number of champion and legendary mobs, frequent condition removal on top of that, plus dealing with the bleed cap) that severely neuter the effectiveness of conditions in any sort of team environment.

Condition damage is incredibly powerful when it’s not being held back by these limitations. It is incredibly powerful in PvP, where your enemies tend to not fall over dead in a couple seconds, giving your conditions time to work; similarly, you don’t get rocked by natural half or quarter condition durations that make your skills useless. Unfortunately the only place you really see something similar in PvE is when soloing world veterans, or 2-3 manning champions; when your bleeds have a chance to work on a foe that doesn’t fall over instantly, their power becomes obvious very, very quickly.

The advantage of normal damage isn’t that it’s mathematically superior, simply that it isn’t hated out viciously by the mechanics of the game.

The neverending story here on the forums.

Condition builds are less than power/crit builds in PvE—and they shouldn’t be. (They are also a problem in WvW where condition removal is pervasive.)

A condition build is perfectly viable as a open world solo build in the game. The problem comes in in PvE around group play. Without a condition build present, you’ve already got bleed stacks on a mob. Add one condition necro and you’ll have no problem keeping the stacks capped. But, adding two doesn’t make any sense in terms of team damage as you are already at the cap. This is just wrong. The problem is obviously the way that Anet has chosen to manage the damage. They do it by stacks on a mob and DoT damage should be by player in terms of damage and ticks. There is no reason for condition damage to be less than direct damage in a significant fight. It’s just damage delivered differently, i.e., over time, as opposed to being front loaded. When I left WoW Affliction Warlock’s were giving Arcane Mages a run for their money in the raid parses. And, this is how it should be; there is no reason for their to be a material difference in the sustained damage in a significant fight.

As it is, a condition build is not a significant contribution to team damage in typical PvE scenarios. There are additional issues, but the basic problem will remain until Anet finds they must, like all other games I’ve played, maintain damage by player.

Another issue is that there is no reliable information as to how conditions stack.

Sure, we know that duration on say burn stack. But what happens if i put a slightly stronger burn on a mob that already has a burn going? Do the person that put on the weaker burn suddenly see his condition damage drop to zero?

All in all, ANet could save themselves a whole lot of computation if they changed conditions so that they didn’t have to track every last bleed at sub second resolution.

What they could do was have the strack be reduced by a set value after each damage calculation. So once per second the bleed stack would be reduced by 1 or more after damage was applied. And for stacking conditions like bleed or vulnerability they could then change it so that condition duration increases directly influenced how big a stack increase you applied. This way you could cram in 200 bleeds and it would still only be a single bleed timer pr mob and character running around, rather than 5000 under current system.

digiowl.9620:

Another issue is that there is no reliable information as to how conditions stack.

Sure, we know that duration on say burn stack. But what happens if i put a slightly stronger burn on a mob that already has a burn going? Do the person that put on the weaker burn suddenly see his condition damage drop to zero?

All in all, ANet could save themselves a whole lot of computation if they changed conditions so that they didn’t have to track every last bleed at sub second resolution.

What they could do was have the strack be reduced by a set value after each damage calculation. So once per second the bleed stack would be reduced by 1 or more after damage was applied. And for stacking conditions like bleed or vulnerability they could then change it so that condition duration increases directly influenced how big a stack increase you applied. This way you could cram in 200 bleeds and it would still only be a single bleed timer pr mob and character running around, rather than 5000 under current system.

This information is all known and has been sandboxed, just up to those of us in the community to spell it out (on the wiki or other places). If you go through this forum, there are some people who have tested/sandboxed it, but there needs to be one places where this is all stated clearly.

Ensign.2189:

Condition damage is an incredibly powerful stat on a lot of characters.

The main problem it has is that against trash mobs they’ll tend to explode before your conditions have a change to do any work, while against actually difficult foes you run into massively hostile mechanics (half condition duration on a large number of champion and legendary mobs, frequent condition removal on top of that, plus dealing with the bleed cap) that severely neuter the effectiveness of conditions in any sort of team environment.

Condition damage is incredibly powerful when it’s not being held back by these limitations. It is incredibly powerful in PvP, where your enemies tend to not fall over dead in a couple seconds, giving your conditions time to work; similarly, you don’t get rocked by natural half or quarter condition durations that make your skills useless. Unfortunately the only place you really see something similar in PvE is when soloing world veterans, or 2-3 manning champions; when your bleeds have a chance to work on a foe that doesn’t fall over instantly, their power becomes obvious very, very quickly.

The advantage of normal damage isn’t that it’s mathematically superior, simply that it isn’t hated out viciously by the mechanics of the game.

I wouldn’t say “incredibly powerful” considering that even with everything working for the condition build the direct damage build will do more damage quicker. With conditions being limited by stack/duration there is cap on how much damage you can do with them. On my thief I can easily cap bleeds and the sad thing is that I could apply more. The obvious multiplicative advantage of Power x Crit % x Crit damage x % damage increase is a HUGE advantage. Condition damage is limited to condition damage(equal to power) and condition duration(equal to crit), that leaves crit damage and % damage increase unaccounted for.

ArenaNet built the game on poor stat base. If direct damage stats can scale so dramatically then survival stats need to be able to do the same. Where is the crit reduction stat? Or the crit damage reduction stat? They could do some really fun stuff like 50% chance to dodge when crit(damage is evaded). If damage is greater than 25% of your health heal for 25% of your health. The truth is that ArenaNet was so afraid of there being tanks and healers that they purposefully left the game unbalanced towards direct damage. This actually has a weird side-effect when certain classes with certain builds can build “tanky”, since the game isn’t balanced around tanks being possible they become broken(OP). If defensive/heal stats were balance those builds wouldn’t be an issue since they couldn’t win via attrition.

None of this is going to change in the near future, especially give the current rate of class changes(even if some of those changes are huge leaps in the wrong direction). The only possibility of it changing is with an expansion, but even then the devs would have to switch from their anti-tank/healer mindset(not likely).

Distaste.4801:

If direct damage stats can scale so dramatically then survival stats need to be able to do the same.

Survival stats tend to scale better than offensive stats.

Virtually every stat in the game scales multiplicatively with every other stat in the game. This is not solely the province of PPP. Offensive stats scale with defensive stats, and vice versa.

The statistical base of this game is very simple, and yet incredibly poorly understood. PPP is incredibly popular, and effective, because defensive stats are not always needed when facing scripted encounters and it scales up in a very obvious way.

That said scaling is some of the weaker scaling in the game, however, doesn’t seem to get a whole lot of attention.

conditions are incredibly powerful against players. Confusion/bleed/ builds are by far the strongest. Less strong in pve but still solid builds.

A side effect of there being a target lock-on but active damage avoidance (dodge, bloc, etc). Never mind that you can expend your avoidance resources, but not your damage resources. If poor aim, or perfect aim, influenced damage done in a similar way to how a poor dodge or perfect dodge can influence damage taken, it may balance out more. But right now the player skill part is all about avoidance. But if you go with player aim influencing damage you end up with a third person shooter.

It’s about stat synergy and the force multiplier aspects of the opposing builds.

Power/Precision/Crit Damage builds take attacks with high coefficients, weapons with high damage and as much power as they can get with zerker gear (i.e., a lot). With critical chances well above 50% and 200 to 250% crit damage multipliers, these builds generate massive hits. In other words, there is a synergy between power, precision and critical damage in these builds.

The force multiplier for condition builds comes from stacks, which only applies to bleeds and confusion. Burning and poison only stack duration. Also, the number of stacks is limited. This does not matter so much in sPvP unless everyone on your team is doing conditions, but it can matter — a lot — in WvW and other-than-solo PvE. In other words, there is no stat synergy with condition damage.

Cymatoperior.5942:

Condition damage such as burning and bleeding means you can do damage while you are dodging or running away. So in terms of actual dps you can actually do more than a zerk build where you hit a few times and run/dodge most of the time or stay dead.

Not really, no.
All that time you’re spending dodging is time you aren’t applying conditions. Your immediate dps may not take much of a hit, but your long-term dps is still dropping just as badly as a direct damage build will.

In WvW, big zergs vs zergs a condition build is AWESOME for farming badges of honour/loot in general, much more so than a berserker build…

I also have a lot of success in PvP with it as well but its more on par with berserker build there…

I vs 1 however berserker better…

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Also remember that a condition build’s greatest enemy is an inanimate object.

This, so much. Lol.

A couple of my guildies have rolled power focused Warriors, so just for variety I decided to take a different approach with mine and build to maximize bleeds. I absolutely love it so far (almost level 60), but completing heart quests that involve destroying objects takes so long!! XD

I decided to use some Power focused trinkets just to give me that extra “umph” I need to make breaking objects bearable.

Condition damage sucks because the game is balanced around sPvP (which is funny because afaik sPvP is the least popular aspect of the game by a huge margin).

As long as they insist on keeping the same balance for sPvP and PvE, PvE will always be shallow – they can’t make condition damage (or support, or control, or healing, or……) good for PvE without making it overpowered in sPvP.

That’s all it comes down to, really.

AzureDragon.1482:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Also remember that a condition build’s greatest enemy is an inanimate object.

This, so much. Lol.

A couple of my guildies have rolled power focused Warriors, so just for variety I decided to take a different approach with mine and build to maximize bleeds. I absolutely love it so far (almost level 60), but completing heart quests that involve destroying objects takes so long!! XD

I decided to use some Power focused trinkets just to give me that extra “umph” I need to make breaking objects bearable.

Anything below level 80 is scaled different, the DPS difference between a berzerker at level 60 and a rampager at level 60 is different.

So your experience isn’t a good representation, also leveling experiences are played much differently then dungeon content.

Shufflepants.9785:

Because 10 * 10 > 10 + 10

He asked “why” not “how”.