Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

I play a necro. I have fun playing the necro. We have a couple of guys in my guild who main necros. They love it.

Maybe you’re just too focused on damage.

And there is the problem. WE the players are not so obsessed with the damage aspect as with the ability to take down our opponents quickly and easily. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE my necro main too, but in a world where DPS is king the guy without the raw damage is playing a losing game. If they were to make condi damage individually stack or increase the base damage of some of our abilities then we could be just as much fun but actually be wanted in most parties.

What I am trying to say is that ANet set up the chessboard but it is now up to us to try and win the game with only rooks.

Vayne.8563:

The problem is, if all you care about is efficiency, you’ll see professions as horribly imbalanced. If all you care about is going out and having a good time and not worrying overly about speed and numbers, you won’t. Your play style is going to have a huge impact on how you see the degree of imbalance.

To say that the game is highly imbalanced because of the efficiency thing may well be all true. But since it doesn’t affect my game at all, or the game of those who play like me…or at least it affects it in relatively minor ways. well to me the game isn’t that unbalanced. It really is a matter of perspective.

By all means if you play a min/max style or like to speed farm, or whatever it is you people do, that’s great. Just keep in mind you’re not necessarily the majority of the gaming population.

It’s not really considered mix/maxing when the difference is so staggering. When a group of 4 Zerk Warriors and a Mesmer kills a boss in 4 seconds while your Ranger/Engineer group kills the same boss in 2-4 minutes, that’s not min/maxing and that’s not a “10% difference” (as you stated before). You may think that’s an exaggeration, but it’s not.

I thought my view of the classes was rather shallow, but you’ve definitely proven me otherwise. You seem to think that most people playing Warriors are bumbling, skill-less idiots, while the Ranger and Engineer in your guild emanate skill like a god. I don’t doubt that your guildies are good, because they probably are. But if your guildies were to take that skill to a Warrior or a Mesmer, your group would fry content. If you’re fine with clearing content 2x or 3x slower, that’s you. Sadly though, most groups aren’t.

Mirta.5029:

Vayne.8563:

I play a necro. I have fun playing the necro. We have a couple of guys in my guild who main necros. They love it.

Maybe you’re just too focused on damage.

Ignoring the problem by saying “I love the class” is not the best way of going around it. ALL of my other toons do more in condition damage, do more in regular damage, do more in healing than necros do.

But necros are also very survivable. They have more health than other professions except warriors, they have the extra health bar with death shroud, and they have some great utility. You want to ignore all that you can. I don’t see any point ignoring all that because that’s, get this, PART of balance.

By providing utility and survivability that make the trade off from damage. Some people get this and some people don’t. I get it. My mesmer will NEVER do the damage a warrior does, but the trade off is utility.

You may or may not like that utility, that’s another matter, but just because you don’t doesn’t mean some thought hasn’t been given to balance. In fact, I can’t think of ANY MMO where every profession does the same damage.

I don’t know why you’d expect every profession to do the same damage here.

Engineers are the same way. They sacrifice damage for utility. This seems to be a component of balance that people overlook. Why do they have professions like that? I don’t know. Maybe some people enjoy playing them.

Giving them the same damage output and the same utility and the same high health would make them overpowered. Isn’t that what everyone is complaining about when they bring up warriors?

Teracide.5137:

Vayne.8563:

The problem is, if all you care about is efficiency, you’ll see professions as horribly imbalanced. If all you care about is going out and having a good time and not worrying overly about speed and numbers, you won’t. Your play style is going to have a huge impact on how you see the degree of imbalance.

To say that the game is highly imbalanced because of the efficiency thing may well be all true. But since it doesn’t affect my game at all, or the game of those who play like me…or at least it affects it in relatively minor ways. well to me the game isn’t that unbalanced. It really is a matter of perspective.

By all means if you play a min/max style or like to speed farm, or whatever it is you people do, that’s great. Just keep in mind you’re not necessarily the majority of the gaming population.

It’s not really considered mix/maxing when the difference is so staggering. When a group of 4 Zerk Warriors and a Mesmer kills a boss in 4 seconds while your Ranger/Engineer group kills the same boss in 2-4 minutes, that’s not min/maxing and that’s not a “10% difference” (as you stated before). You may think that’s an exaggeration, but it’s not.

I thought my view of the classes was rather shallow, but you’ve definitely proven me otherwise. You seem to think that most people playing Warriors are bumbling, skill-less idiots, while the Ranger and Engineer in your guild emanate skill like a god. I don’t doubt that your guildies are good, because they probably are. But if your guildies were to take that skill to a Warrior or a Mesmer, your group would fry content. If you’re fine with clearing content 2x or 3x slower, that’s you. Sadly though, most groups aren’t.

How do you know most groups aren’t? Have you polled them? Most SPEED CLEAR group aren’t. Based on the fact that rangers, engies and necros are all saying they have no problems finding groups,. maybe you don’t know as much about the player base as you think. This is a casual game. Hard core farmers are not the rule…they’re the exception.

Oh please, Im not evan a hardcore player, I don’t play more than 2 hours a day, and I ( I ) hate playing dungeons slowly, I want o finish them as fast as its possible and get the reward.
If you don’t like it and you only prefer “casual” things or the journey or the immerssion , go to Queensdale and listen to the NPCs talking or something.

Dont speak for everyone. And your friends or guild doesn’t count as everyone in the game.

Vayne.8563:

Mirta.5029:

Vayne.8563:

I play a necro. I have fun playing the necro. We have a couple of guys in my guild who main necros. They love it.

Maybe you’re just too focused on damage.

Ignoring the problem by saying “I love the class” is not the best way of going around it. ALL of my other toons do more in condition damage, do more in regular damage, do more in healing than necros do.

But necros are also very survivable. They have more health than other professions except warriors, they have the extra health bar with death shroud, and they have some great utility. You want to ignore all that you can. I don’t see any point ignoring all that because that’s, get this, PART of balance.

By providing utility and survivability that make the trade off from damage. Some people get this and some people don’t. I get it. My mesmer will NEVER do the damage a warrior does, but the trade off is utility.

You may or may not like that utility, that’s another matter, but just because you don’t doesn’t mean some thought hasn’t been given to balance. In fact, I can’t think of ANY MMO where every profession does the same damage.

I don’t know why you’d expect every profession to do the same damage here.

Engineers are the same way. They sacrifice damage for utility. This seems to be a component of balance that people overlook. Why do they have professions like that? I don’t know. Maybe some people enjoy playing them.

Giving them the same damage output and the same utility and the same high health would make them overpowered. Isn’t that what everyone is complaining about when they bring up warriors?

A full-Zerk warrior isn’t going to die to anything that a Necro is going to survive, and vice versa. Having survivability in this game is a simple waste of stats. You’re either going to get one-shot by a mechanic that you were supposed to dodge, or take very manageable damage that can be healed through. Survivability has it’s uses in PvP, but in PvE it’s worthless. That same could be said for utility in PvE.

Nick.6972:

Oh please, Im not evan a hardcore player, I don’t play more than 2 hours a day, and I ( I ) hate playing dungeons slowly, I want o finish them as fast as its possible and get the reward.
If you don’t like it and you only prefer “casual” things or the journey or the immerssion , go to Queensdale and listen to the NPCs talking or something.

Dont speak for everyone. And your friends or guild doesn’t count as everyone in the game.

I don’t speak for everyone. I don’t even speak for the majority. But after YEARS of MMO playing, I know there are a whole lot more people out there playing just to have fun than racing through content. The run run run crowd may be who you hang out with, but they’re not the majority of players.

I think you’d be stunned about how many people play this game that NEVER do any dungeon.

Provide me statistics that prove your statement, otherwise, I might as well claim that 45% of the GW2’s playerbase think COD is a better game, 34.67% Plan on quitting to play Runescpae and rest of the people are bots.

Nick.6972:

Provide me statistics that prove your statement, otherwise, I might as well claim that 45% of the GW2’s playerbase think COD is a better game, 34.67% Plan on quitting to play Runescpae and rest of the people are bots.

Actually my information comes from following some of the transcripts from MMO developer convention panels, where the developers talk about all sorts of interesting things. You should see if you can dig some of those up.

It’s not my job to research MMOs for you. Someone produces a Ghost Crawler quote about how few people ever do the hardest content in WoW. He put it at 5%. There are quotes I’ve bought up in the past from Scott Hartsman from Rift.

In every single MMORPG, at least every theme park one, all you hear is hard core players complaining about how the game gets dumbed down and everything gets made easier. Why? Because people complain.

Now you seem like a logical lad. Why would game companies keep nerfing the difficulty of stuff if the majority of the playerbase was hard core. There was even a thread where Anet was talking about how hard some of the early Guild Wars 1 content is.

It doesn’t really matter whether you believe me or you don’t believe me. The industry leaders know where their bread is buttered. It’s why they make games like Guild Wars 2.

Do you really really think that if the type of player you were was the money spot, Anet wouldn’t be paying attention to you a lot faster?

Pve mechanic complexity in this game is inexistant. There is not need to cc anything, to dispel anything and so on. Bleed cap also make condition profession like …. ranger, engineer, and necromancer – the irony- less appealing, and let’s not forget how useless conditions are for the moment in pve outside fractal. Pve needs to encourage control and support more. Boss mechanics, in general, should encourage profession to use, for example, poison to control healing, or chill to control a huge cooldown. Dispel should be more relevant. For now, I don’t think those classes you listed are underpowered, the mechanic itself is lacking, and seems to encourage straightfoward dps instead of synergy among the professions.

Note: You guys are missing Vayne point, and making hasty assumptions. It feels like your comments aim to make people uncomfortable. Some of you don’t seem to be able to express your opinion without turning into some kind of “attack”. And as soon as he answers back, you start calling him “hypocritical” (note the quote), and accusing him of repeating himself (God, rly??)..

But hey, if that’s the way you entertain yourself, keep on doing it.

Poplolita.2638:

Pve mechanic complexity in this game is inexistant. There is not need to cc anything, to dispel anything and so on. Bleed cap also make condition profession like …. ranger, engineer, and necromancer – the irony- less appealing, and let’s not forget how useless conditions are for the moment in pve outside fractal. Pve needs to encourage control and support more. Boss mechanics, in general, should encourage profession to use, for example, poison to control healing, or chill to control a huge cooldown. Dispel should be more relevant. For now, I don’t think those classes you listed are underpowered, the mechanic itself is lacking, and seems to encourage straightfoward dps instead of synergy among the professions.

Note: You guys are missing Vayne point, and making hasty assumptions. It feels like your comments aim to make people uncomfortable. Some of you don’t seem to be able to express your opinion without turning into some kind of “attack”. And as soon as he answers back, you start calling him “hypocritical” (note the quote), and accusing him of repeating himself (God, rly??)..

But hey, if that’s the way you entertain yourself, keep on doing it.

Thanks for the support…but it’s not necessary. There are plenty of lurkers who see what I post and get what I’m saying…and they’re basically the people I’m posting it for.

I know I’m never going to change the mind of the people posting some of this stuff, but I can sure make an effort to make sure that other people out there don’t see these things the same way.

Vayne.8563:

I repeat what I say, because people repeat what they say.

You responded to me, not to “people.” You didn’t address some of the issues I’ve raised. I have no interest in broken records—and I doubt you do either.

As for statistical analysis, there have been tons of things written about the dominance of the casual player in the genre over the hard core. When you look at the highest level raids in a game like WoW, most of the gaming population never even sees them. Furthermore, there’s a big of common sense involved in thinking that most people who play games play them casually and that’s any game. There are more pro baseball players than amateur ones. Pretty simple really.

People who really get into the number crunching aren’t a minority because I say so. They’re a minority because most people don’t like math that much. Do you really need a poll to know this.

On the one hand, you decry those who claim the “sky is falling.” On the other hand, you prejudicially characterize those who are concerned about balance issues as “really…into number crunching” and “hard core.”

I’m not “really…into number crunching.” I’m not a “pro.” I don’t even play that much, let alone crack out the spreadsheets. Your stereotypes are as uncharitable as they are incorrect.

And the comparison to WoW is just not really apt. I’m not some end-game raider where I’m concerned about an additional 1% to healing power so I can top the charts. My concerns are more pedestrian—like why must I take 20 points in Arcana to just survive in PvP? Or why are many of the elementalist skills generally mediocre or useless? Those are the kinds of specific issues people are interested in talking about.

Devs from companies have gone on the record talking about casual players and also solo players. Games thrive on them. If you don’t want to believe it, that’s your own lookout.

Where did I say I don’t believe the game “thrives” on casuals? You are painting with a broad brush—as if everyone who is concerned about class imbalances or structural deficiencies with class mechanics shares the same set of faults.

So people keep saying, OMG this game is so imbalanced, it’s the worst thing ever. I point out that I’ve seen this on every MMORPG forum I’ve ever logged into. Every single one. While my word on this is annecdotal, it’s easy enough to research for yourself.

I didn’t say it was “the worst thing ever.” You might try arguing in good faith.

So if every single forum for every single MMORPG has had people saying this is the most unbalanced game ever, or no MMO is as badly balanced as this one, they can’t all be right, can they?

Therefore, because some are wrong, all are wrong? Or because some people exaggerate, all exaggerate? I don’t follow the logic, especially because at least one of the MMORPG forums would be right: objectively there would be one MMORPG that is the most unbalanced of the set.

Not that all of us are saying it’s the “most unbalanced game ever.” How is such hyperbole helpful?

You have a problem, apparently a serious problem with the game balance. Most people that play this game are still trying to figure out what a condition is. What a boon is. Where to find stuff in LA.

Yes, you are repeating yourself, without addressing my point. If people are so casual they don’t even know what a condition is, who cares whether the (alleged, so-called) “mix/maxers” want their classes reworked? By your own standard, you shouldn’t care. I suspect, of course, that the real problem is your perception that some people are too negative toward GW2.

This is also true on most MMOs. You don’t need to be a brain surgeon to know that the average intelligence of gamers isn’t a zillion. The guys who min/max and crunch numbers and really get into that stuff are a very small percentage of the population because intelligent people are a very small percentage.

The smoke from the strawmen is making my eyes water.

You see black and white when the people on this issue span a continuum. Not everyone concerned is a “min/maxer.” But even if they were, you’re still not addressing the fact that if people are as you say they are, you shouldn’t care that we want some changes. Those changes won’t affect the majority of the population.

Yes, it’s a big deal to you, I get it. But that doesn’t make it a big deal.

You should just copy and paste this everytime you post.

@Guns and Giblets

It’s not a strawman argument to say most players are casual. And yes, a percentage of casual players will care about balance to some degree. I have never said this game was perfectly balanced. All I said was it’s pretty much in line with where a whole lot of MMOs are during their first year.

Sure balance work needs to be done. I’m not denying this. It’s going slowly and taking time. So?

The only reason anyone would have for rushing balancing is if the game was unplayable as is. The game isn’t unplayable as is, since lots of people play it.

If you really really feel you need to play a warrior to get into a dungeon group…roll a warrior. But others have said it’s not true. And with the exception of a couple of dungeon paths, it’s not even most efficient. I spend half my life rezzing zerker warriors. I’m sure there are very good zerker warriors out there. I’ve even met a few. But it doesn’t seem that these guys are as all powerful as people are saying.

I’m not seeing things as black and white as you think. Balance will be continue to be done in a slow and methodical way. I’m sure Anet didn’t have a meeting and say, okay no more balancing. I’m pretty sure we’d have heard about that.

It’s taking more time than people like and I get that. But there are two sides to every issue. If people are going to come onto these forums and say this is the worst balance I’ve ever seen in any game…and it’s been said…I’m going to say no it’s not.

Does it need work. Sure it does.

But you still can’t go onto the forums of ANY MMORPG, and not find the same types of comments. As I said before, every game can’t be the worst.

“I’m not “really…into number crunching.” I’m not a “pro.” I don’t even play that much, let alone crack out the spreadsheets.”

If you don’t even play that much, why do you care so much about balance then??? Look, when you try to make a point, I don’t even know what it is, at least, don’t put contradictions here and there that hurts your credibility.

Poplolita.2638:

“I’m not “really…into number crunching.” I’m not a “pro.” I don’t even play that much, let alone crack out the spreadsheets.”

If you don’t even play that much, why do you care so much about balance then??? Look, when you try to make a point, I don’t even know what it is, at least, don’t put contradictions here and there that hurts your credibility.

Well, I still play. And I would play more if balance issues were addressed.

Why do I have to be a hardcore player to care? I don’t understand the objection or how it’s a contradiction.

Like, I mean, right now it isn’t a serious issue because the game is new and there’s only the few people who will shun certain professions. But, in the past in other games this is also true. Eventually it will get to the point where everyone has this “elitist” knowledge and a good majority will follow it like blind sheep and shun professions because “everyone else is doing it”.

Now, “you” may not have an issue with it. Even “your guild” might not and still play what they want. But, the problem is, those who play weaker professions for fun are definitely in the minority.

Vayne.8563:

ScottBroChill.3254:

Even if you are just playing to have fun, the game should still be balanced. It’s no excuse to have things imbalanced because they assume everyone will play casually even though it’s their aim.

The problem is balance is next to impossible. This game is a lot more balanced than some other games out there. People don’t want to see or believe it, but there have been games famous for imbalance.

I think balance could be easy or hard, depending on the road Arenanet goes down in the future, such as:

• Every profession is DPS, with varying capabilities for providing/stripping boons and conditions. Therefore, we will make the DPS equal.
• Every profession is a unique role. An Engineer is an Engineer, not a ranged damage dealer, not Heimerdinger, not anything else but Engineer. In fact, every profession/weapon/trait combo is a unique role. Therefore, we will make all changes using myopic criteria unknowable to the player base.

Teracide.5137:

A full-Zerk warrior isn’t going to die to anything that a Necro is going to survive, and vice versa. Having survivability in this game is a simple waste of stats. You’re either going to get one-shot by a mechanic that you were supposed to dodge, or take very manageable damage that can be healed through. Survivability has it’s uses in PvP, but in PvE it’s worthless. That same could be said for utility in PvE.

I would disagree here. A lot of zerk warriors are only good for CoF. Take them to CoE or Arah and they’re dead on the floor. There’s no such thing as infinite dodge. Survivability is good. But being able to survive 200 hits just to take 2 hours to down a boss is not a fun way to play.

aspirine.6852:

Isnt that always the case? GW1 had the strong and weak classes, rangers almost always left out in groups. Necros the jack of all trades but master of none.

but in GW1 you had a ton of skills to find your own combination that could easily be something undiscovered and powerful, and on top of that you had 2nd professions so if yours really was bad at a certain thing you could get skills from 2nd (like rangers topping PvE dps like going R/D)

In GW2 you have neither, so if your class does worse than another, you can’t make up for this by creativity and you can’t make up for this by taking skills from another class. That’s what makes the difference.

This whole conversation is just rather ironic if you ask me.

The supposed PvP game sitting here griping about how PvE isn’t balanced, lol. ArenaNet dropped the ball so hard on this game it’s just laughable.

Anyhow, anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that the majority of players in ANY game want to get things done as quickly and easily as possible.

Trying to argue that it is not true is just being ignorant of reality.

If group X can do things faster and easier than group Y, then people want group X.

This is not complicated or difficult to grasp. Sometimes people make me wonder.

Veldan.4637:

aspirine.6852:

Isnt that always the case? GW1 had the strong and weak classes, rangers almost always left out in groups. Necros the jack of all trades but master of none.

but in GW1 you had a ton of skills to find your own combination that could easily be something undiscovered and powerful, and on top of that you had 2nd professions so if yours really was bad at a certain thing you could get skills from 2nd (like rangers topping PvE dps like going R/D)

In GW2 you have neither, so if your class does worse than another, you can’t make up for this by creativity and you can’t make up for this by taking skills from another class. That’s what makes the difference.

In GW1 you had gimmicks to build combos into until they “fixed” them.

In GW2 you have flexibility of movement that is where creativeness comes into play. You also in GW2 have combos (though a lot chose not to use them) but these add in a lot of play if used right.

Jski.6180:

In GW2 you have flexibility of movement that is where creativeness comes into play.

Until the game dumps you into a narrow hallways with a bunch of AOE dodge-or-die spamming mobs.

digiowl.9620:

Jski.6180:

In GW2 you have flexibility of movement that is where creativeness comes into play.

Until the game dumps you into a narrow hallways with a bunch of AOE dodge-or-die spamming mobs.

Well its not true dodge is an invaluable frames roll. GW2 is a near action game there are very few online games that are true action think dark souls where you must roll away from the attks.

That and being able to jump on rocks and take vintages points that are hard for mobs to get to add a nice bit of flexibility to fight mobs. You can use your environment beyond just getting behind a wall before a mob can shot.

I’ve played plenty of action games with dodge/roll buttons, and they almost never give you invulnerability frames or proccing an “Evaded”, they’re for not being there when an attack lands. It would be helpful if the only thing you were expected to use it for here was moving out of red circles.

RebelYell.7132:

I’ve played plenty of action games with dodge/roll buttons, and they almost never give you invulnerability frames or proccing an “Evaded”, they’re for not being there when an attack lands. It would be helpful if the only thing you were expected to use it for here was moving out of red circles.

Yea, the whole “evaded” thing seems tacked on. It seems to not even kick in until after the first complete roll or so. Someone else on the forum mentioned getting their toon stuck in half rolls from Subject Alpha’s crystal cocoon attack, for instance.

As for the continued example of Dark Soul, never played it. And from what i gather, i should never attempt to play it or i will end up smashing my keyboard into a fine powder.

digiowl.9620:

RebelYell.7132:

I’ve played plenty of action games with dodge/roll buttons, and they almost never give you invulnerability frames or proccing an “Evaded”, they’re for not being there when an attack lands. It would be helpful if the only thing you were expected to use it for here was moving out of red circles.

Yea, the whole “evaded” thing seems tacked on. It seems to not even kick in until after the first complete roll or so. Someone else on the forum mentioned getting their toon stuck in half rolls from Subject Alpha’s crystal cocoon attack, for instance.

As for the continued example of Dark Soul, never played it. And from what i gather, i should never attempt to play it or i will end up smashing my keyboard into a fine powder.

Dark Souls isn’t really that hard. If it was, it wouldn’t be popular. They remind me of what’s good about a game like Nethack or Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup, except with the good graphics you need to make a game mass marketable. (And I recommend those games if you want some hardcore dungeon action that doesn’t test your reflexes).

I tried playing Engineer because the concept behind the class seemed really cool.

But I was disappointed at how weak they were.

I rerolled Guardian and I’m having much more fun now.

I feel like an epic hero, and not the fragile underdog.

Treadstone.2564:

I tried playing Engineer because the concept behind the class seemed really cool.

But I was disappointed at how weak they were.

I rerolled Guardian and I’m having much more fun now.

I feel like an epic hero, and not the fragile underdog.

You picked a pretty good class. Guardian would probably be ranked 3rd in the most effective classes. I’m currently playing my Necro for WvW and PvP purposes. I’d do more on him if the meta allowed me to do so. I suppose I’ll just buy my exotic set for my Necro, or mail over the CoF tokens I farm on my Warrior to get his gear.

Getting end-game gear is far from difficult, especially if you have the gold to cover it. If you play with friends or guildies that are friendly enough to run with you, you shouldn’t hit much of an issue in getting content done either (as was mentioned earlier in this thread). I’d just suggest leveling a Mesmer or a Warrior when you get the time, so you can get into farm groups.

Are you kidding? I love a healer Engineer on my party. It is just that maybe most people don’t “get” one class as much as the others. Warriors, for example, have very limited party buffs compared to Mesmer, Necro and even Engineers themselves. To each, its own.

I think what is wrong with this game is that many dungeon exploits and hacks that require a certain setup of classes to work out. I’ve been called for some of them, it is just sad.

Vayne.8563:

I didn’t say YOU said anything.

You responded to my posts and points in such a way that any rational person would interpret your statements as an attempt to engage my claims. Either your communication has failed or you’re just using my posts—and thus ignoring them—as a pretext to address some personal soapbox you have with the attitudes some have toward this game. Great “conversation” you’re trying to have here.

I simply said people have said this on these forums. Unlike you, I’m having a conversation, and conversations between lots of people are in fact based on what lots of people are saying.

I’ve tried having a “conversation” with you. I’ve asked you for specifics, to engage details, to provide statistics, etc. I’ve asked you direct questions. I’ve raised problems with your posts. You avoided a large number of these requests and responses. You also use my posts as a pretext to launch a crusade against those you think are claiming “the sky is falling” or consider this to be “the most poorly balanced MMORGP ever.” Can you name anyone in this thread who has suggested these things? No? Then what is your purpose in responding to me with these statements?

You’ve already admitted earlier in this thread you’re not here to change people’s minds, but post for the lurkers. Which is it? Are you here to have a “conversation” or are you here to post for the lurkers?

YOU were the one who came after me and said I was saying the same things over and over.

Because you do. Read your own posts and ask yourself how you come across. You drown threads like these with stories of personal fulfillment in GW2, and when challenged as to their relevance, repeat the same or similar personal stories, sprinkling them with vague references to how some balance changes are needed, coupled with undue faith that such changes will be made in the future.

It’s as if you just can’t handle that some people are genuinely concerned about the state of the game. Not everyone has to like the game as much as you do.

When overstatement and hyperbole are rampant, I’ll move to do something about it. That’s it.

Are overstatement and hyperbole rampant in this thread? No. So go “move to do something about it” somewhere else.

If you have a problem with that, I don’t know what to tell you. Have you READ these forums?

You act as if it’s your job to correct everyone.

No point in arguing with Vayne. He and his guild think this is the best game ever and flawless. If you disagree he and his guil prove otherwise and speak for the majority. An his years of MMO playing make him the authority on MMO’s.

On a serious note, the classes and balance in this game are very poorly balanced because most of the game is balanced for solo, not group, play. As such, groups may never get the real balancing they deserve. This is especially apparent in dungeons and sPvP.

clay.7849:

No point in arguing with Vayne. He and his guild think this is the best game ever and flawless. If you disagree he and his guil prove otherwise and speak for the majority. An his years of MMO playing make him the authority on MMO’s.

On a serious note, the classes and balance in this game are very poorly balanced because most of the game is balanced for solo, not group, play. As such, groups may never get the real balancing they deserve. This is especially apparent in dungeons and sPvP.

I’ve not only said this isn’t the best game ever, I’ve actually said it’s not. You can look on the thread titled Guild Wars 2 is the best game ever. It’s not. It’s my favorite MMO to date, mostly because I didn’t like MMOs. I’ve also said its’ a good game with a potential to be a great game. So your claim that I think this is the best game ever is not only false, but you should have known better.

I also never said I spoke for the majority. I only say that the hard core element is a minority. That’s been true in pretty much every MMO except perhaps Eve. That’s I’m not sure about. But in WoW, Rift, Lotro, DDO, most of the players aren’t hard core and don’t clear the hardest content. I’m pretty sure this was also true in Guild Wars 1.

Finally, I don’t feel the responsibility to correct everyone. I feel an obligation to tell the other side of the story, when people are either over-stating or misrepresenting things.

If you guys don’t like it, good. It doesn’t change the circumstances, or my reactions to them.

All bow to lord Vayne, Protector of Guild Wars 2. Teach us lord with your anecdotal evidence and superior MMO knowledge, for I am not worthy of my own opinions.

clay.7849:

All bow to lord Vayne, Protector of Guild Wars 2. Teach us lord with your anecdotal evidence and superior MMO knowledge, for I am not worthy of my own opinions.

Common knowledge, repeated over the years by game devs isn’t anecdoetal, unless you consider game devs not to be experts in the game. Someone else posted a Ghost Crawler quote elsewhere about the percentage of WoW players who finished high level raids. The percentage was 5%. Do you really think I’m making this stuff up?

I’ve been following not just MMOs but the business of MMOs for years. I’ve educated myself. You’ve played Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2. Maybe we should bow to your superior knowledge.

Anyone who’s played other games has watched hard content get nerfed for the casual crowd, so much so it’s almost become a meme. This isn’t something I should need to prove. It’s something you should know, and if you don’t, your MMO education is lacking.

As for protecting Guild Wars 2, I’m against hyperbole generally and will call people on it, in real life as well as on forums, for the reason of it obscuring truth. It doesn’t matter to me if you like that, or you don’t.

What does matter to me is that the other side of the story gets told.

Vayne I thought we were talking about skill balance and GW2, not raids in WoW. What are you rambling about man?

Can’t you see this game is really poorly developed around 5 man teams? Look at sPvP: thieves and elementalists. Dungeons have warriors and mesmers.

I’m not an elitist, but I can tell you that I have quit a couple dungeon groups simply because they plain suck. I don’t know if it is their professions but when it takes 5 minutes to kill the slave master in CoF p1 there is a problem.

You’re assumption you can play this game any way is wrong, unless you like not being efficient.

I feel like half the posts in this entire forum are Vayne telling people that trust me, bad classes are fine (because…reasons?) and it doesn’t matter if they’re bad. Over and over and over again, all day, every day.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Poplolita.2638:

“I’m not “really…into number crunching.” I’m not a “pro.” I don’t even play that much, let alone crack out the spreadsheets.”

If you don’t even play that much, why do you care so much about balance then??? Look, when you try to make a point, I don’t even know what it is, at least, don’t put contradictions here and there that hurts your credibility.

Well, I still play. And I would play more if balance issues were addressed.

Why do I have to be a hardcore player to care? I don’t understand the objection or how it’s a contradiction.

@Guns and Giblets.9308 You do not have the required experience, according to your posts, to claim what is balanced and what is not, nor to tell who’s wrong or not; and this is a common and VALIDE ad hominem commonly used in every competitive games against people like you. I just think your lack of experience contradicts your position.

Back on topic.:::::

- What do you suggest to fix necromancer, ranger, thief, and engineer to be on part with warrior, mesmer, guardian, and elem.
- How pve mechanic should change for the better so those 4 professions shine once again?
- Is it time for ArenaNet to give dodge to bosses to indirectly nerf some playstyle, zerk for example, and encourage multi dot/condition/aoe playstyle?

clay.7849:

Vayne I thought we were talking about skill balance and GW2, not raids in WoW. What are you rambling about man?

Can’t you see this game is really poorly developed around 5 man teams? Look at sPvP: thieves and elementalists. Dungeons have warriors and mesmers.

I’m not an elitist, but I can tell you that I have quit a couple dungeon groups simply because they plain suck. I don’t know if it is their professions but when it takes 5 minutes to kill the slave master in CoF p1 there is a problem.

You’re assumption you can play this game any way is wrong, unless you like not being efficient.

Then I’m not efficient. That’s all. You care about running dungeons as fast as human possible. A percentage of the population cares about the same thing. A percentage of the population doesn’t. If all you care about is efficiency, you’re right. I don’t care about efficiency and there are many of us out there. I’m not saying more or less, but enough to play together and have fun.

In any game with five professions, there will be a most efficient combination. People ALWAYS find the most efficient combination. You talk like other games don’t experience this phenomena. It’s so prevalent I can’t believe you think this is something to comment on. It happened often in Guild Wars 1 even. People figured out a way to do things fast and that’s the builds they wanted to do those things. Why is it such a big deal here?

Vargs.6234:

I feel like half the posts in this entire forum are Vayne telling people that trust me, bad classes are fine (because…reasons?) and it doesn’t matter if they’re bad. Over and over and over again, all day, every day.

I never said bad classes are fine. I said bad classes don’t exist…except MAYBE engineer. The problem is I play with engineers in the guild and they do fine. Rangers are NOT as broken as people say they are. They’re perfectly viable.

Can they use some love. Sure. That’s not the same thing as saying they’re completely broken.

When someone says a profession is completely broken because another profession can do more DPS, that’s when I peak my nose in.

But maybe you haven’t noticed all the other people saying they’re doing just fine on those professions.

‘Why is it such a big deal here?’

Warrior… ((((Warrior… Warrior… Warrior… ))))Mesmer.

That’s why. In a more serious note, the simple fact that some dungeons, I’m looking at you CoF c1, encourage dps race.. instead of synergy is just poor design on ArenaNet part. This is where I think most people frustation about “professions inbalance” comes from.

Vayne.8563:

When someone says a profession is completely broken because another profession can do more DPS, that’s when I peak my nose in.

To keep the rabble down, eh? As lord defender of Gulld Wars 2 you would hate for someone to say something bad about the game. Keep us in our place Vayne, we don’t deserve to be in the same forums as you.

Poplolita.2638:

Pve mechanic complexity in this game is inexistant. There is not need to cc anything, to dispel anything and so on. Bleed cap also make condition profession like …. ranger, engineer, and necromancer – the irony- less appealing, and let’s not forget how useless conditions are for the moment in pve outside fractal. Pve needs to encourage control and support more. Boss mechanics, in general, should encourage profession to use, for example, poison to control healing, or chill to control a huge cooldown. Dispel should be more relevant. For now, I don’t think those classes you listed are underpowered, the mechanic itself is lacking, and seems to encourage straightfoward dps instead of synergy among the professions.
……

“Those classes aren’t weak, they just designed the game around tasks they’re worse at performing!”.

I do alright on my Ranger but telling myself that my thief with a shortbow doesn’t have more to offer in a group and solo setting is just delusional. But I guess all classes are pretty much equal, just some are more equal than others.

Ranger and Engineer easiest to score multiple kills in WvW. Sit back, use ranged + pierce and tag many many zergers.

This is very true. As an engineer you just can’t to speed runs. Your just kinda useless compared to a warrior.

Warriors SHOULD deal more damage than any other profession.
Guardians SHOULD have more survivability than any other profession.

The point is, every profession should be unique and be capable of doing thing or two better than the other 7 professions.

It’s just stupid to ask for everyone do deal the same amount of damage, have equal heals etc.

Take the trinity and expand on it, add 5 more roles on already existing 3.

Ezeriel.9574:

I’ve come to think that the playerbase is just way to defensive, and what we need is Gordon Ramsey to scream some sense into them.

Just try telling the Necros that they aren’t wanted in groups, and they start talking about condition removal. They think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread; everyone else thinks their garbage.

…and what’s really infuriating is that I was really starting to really like my flamethrower engi, and Anet killed it. Nerfed damage, nerfed Kit Refinement.. what’s the point?

…but people will still defend them. People still ask for ‘good’ flamethrower builds.

The most painful part of it all, most of the time the playerbase has some really good ideas. Like let rangers stow their pets and receive a small damage buff. Why do they fight the players on that? It’s a good idea. Hell.. they could even just add a pet that only gives a stat buff, and doesn’t attack.

They won’t even listen to any of that. Just look at how they ignore engineers begging for KR to be restored to what it was (I did my share of griping about it) Hell, I’d give up all the other effects, if they would just give me elixirgun procs… but no.. not even a comment on the subject.

And why did warriors, mesmers, and guardians not get the ‘quality of life’ speed buff?

Siege weapons can’t bleed… But you can kill lava flows with fireballs….

/facepalm

Guess most of it is true, lolled at the ending, so true xD

But warriors have infinite speed if they desire, mesmers dont seem to have 2 much, guardians 2.

Nick.6972:

Warriors SHOULD deal more damage than any other profession.
Guardians SHOULD have more survivability than any other profession.

The point is, every profession should be unique and be capable of doing thing or two better than the other 7 professions.

It’s just stupid to ask for everyone do deal the same amount of damage, have equal heals etc.

Take the trinity and expand on it, add 5 more roles on already existing 3.

Is a possibility, sounds interesting if they can make it happen, but locks you up with the need for certain classes in dungeon which they specifically didnt want, and which I enjoy for that much of the game.

I dont wanna go for a dungeon which barely gets played (they are out there) and when I do get 5 party members, the group makes no sense and we cannot go in.

Nick.6972:

Warriors SHOULD deal more damage than any other profession.
Guardians SHOULD have more survivability than any other profession.

The point is, every profession should be unique and be capable of doing thing or two better than the other 7 professions.

It’s just stupid to ask for everyone do deal the same amount of damage, have equal heals etc.

Take the trinity and expand on it, add 5 more roles on already existing 3.

Except that was GW2’s intentions, which I think was dumb.

The problem is that DPS > everything else in this game. So, while a warrior SHOULD do more damage, in doing so, they become the best class in the game as it relates to DPS being the best.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne I thought we were talking about skill balance and GW2, not raids in WoW. What are you rambling about man?

Can’t you see this game is really poorly developed around 5 man teams? Look at sPvP: thieves and elementalists. Dungeons have warriors and mesmers.

I’m not an elitist, but I can tell you that I have quit a couple dungeon groups simply because they plain suck. I don’t know if it is their professions but when it takes 5 minutes to kill the slave master in CoF p1 there is a problem.

You’re assumption you can play this game any way is wrong, unless you like not being efficient.

Then I’m not efficient. That’s all. You care about running dungeons as fast as human possible. A percentage of the population cares about the same thing. A percentage of the population doesn’t. If all you care about is efficiency, you’re right. I don’t care about efficiency and there are many of us out there. I’m not saying more or less, but enough to play together and have fun.

In any game with five professions, there will be a most efficient combination. People ALWAYS find the most efficient combination. You talk like other games don’t experience this phenomena. It’s so prevalent I can’t believe you think this is something to comment on. It happened often in Guild Wars 1 even. People figured out a way to do things fast and that’s the builds they wanted to do those things. Why is it such a big deal here?

You’re so quick to put words in my mouth. I don’t care about running dungeons as fast as possible. In the other hand, I like to complete them in a decent amout of time.

Oh Vayne, you are vain.

I don’t need to be the most efficient, but to not be somewhat efficient is a bit dumb don’t you think?

Some people love to walk from one point to another as fast as they can. Some people like to stroll. Some people have fun with content and playing with people, some people just want to get it done. What is so hard to understand here?

Yes, you want it somewhat efficiently. I don’t care. Many people don’t care. Why do you care that we don’t care? Someone said that most groups can run CoF path 1 in ten minutes. A speed clear group can run it in 6.5. That 3.5 minute difference is only a big deal if you’re doing multiple runs. Many runs. Farming.

Not everyone puts a stopwatch on their entertainment. Stop trying to tell me that the problem is bigger than it is…. it’s not.

Every single MMORPG has a problem with one build or one profession or one method being more efficient. Then certain people who play for efficiency will use that method and thus exclude people who don’t care about efficiency. This is business as usual, not something that needs a ton of attention.

Do you really think when they make whatever changes they make, there won’t be a different most efficient method and we won’t see the same kinds of posts.

Go do a bit of research. Go to other MMO forums and read them. Just read them. See what other people are saying about other games. This is the same complaint I read on every MMO forum.

Is there work to be done on balancing. Sure. Is there a major problem here? No more than in any other MMORPG.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne I thought we were talking about skill balance and GW2, not raids in WoW. What are you rambling about man?

Can’t you see this game is really poorly developed around 5 man teams? Look at sPvP: thieves and elementalists. Dungeons have warriors and mesmers.

I’m not an elitist, but I can tell you that I have quit a couple dungeon groups simply because they plain suck. I don’t know if it is their professions but when it takes 5 minutes to kill the slave master in CoF p1 there is a problem.

You’re assumption you can play this game any way is wrong, unless you like not being efficient.

Then I’m not efficient. That’s all. You care about running dungeons as fast as human possible. A percentage of the population cares about the same thing. A percentage of the population doesn’t. If all you care about is efficiency, you’re right. I don’t care about efficiency and there are many of us out there. I’m not saying more or less, but enough to play together and have fun.

In any game with five professions, there will be a most efficient combination. People ALWAYS find the most efficient combination. You talk like other games don’t experience this phenomena. It’s so prevalent I can’t believe you think this is something to comment on. It happened often in Guild Wars 1 even. People figured out a way to do things fast and that’s the builds they wanted to do those things. Why is it such a big deal here?

You’re so quick to put words in my mouth. I don’t care about running dungeons as fast as possible. In the other hand, I like to complete them in a decent amout of time.

Oh Vayne, you are vain.

I don’t need to be the most efficient, but to not be somewhat efficient is a bit dumb don’t you think?

Some people love to walk from one point to another as fast as they can. Some people like to stroll. Some people have fun with content and playing with people, some people just want to get it done. What is so hard to understand here?

Yes, you want it somewhat efficiently. I don’t care. Many people don’t care. Why do you care that we don’t care? Someone said that most groups can run CoF path 1 in ten minutes. A speed clear group can run it in 6.5. That 3.5 minute difference is only a big deal if you’re doing multiple runs. Many runs. Farming.

Not everyone puts a stopwatch on their entertainment. Stop trying to tell me that the problem is bigger than it is…. it’s not.

Every single MMORPG has a problem with one build or one profession or one method being more efficient. Then certain people who play for efficiency will use that method and thus exclude people who don’t care about efficiency. This is business as usual, not something that needs a ton of attention.

Do you really think when they make whatever changes they make, there won’t be a different most efficient method and we won’t see the same kinds of posts.

Go do a bit of research. Go to other MMO forums and read them. Just read them. See what other people are saying about other games. This is the same complaint I read on every MMO forum.

Is there work to be done on balancing. Sure. Is there a major problem here? No more than in any other MMORPG.

Why do you keep saying we should compare this to other MMO’s to justify bad mechanics?

I thought this was the MMO for people that don’t like MMO’s?

Your points are silly and useless.