Guild Wars 2

Thrist.9046:

Yes the world was a much better place when the strong ruled the weak. Feudalism was all the rage.

I suppose you think the weak would have been far better off left to their own devices? Or that today’s societies don’t function on the same principle?

At any rate, Guild Wars 2 isn’t real life, it’s a game, and people who don’t know better should not be subject to trade scams.

This is not an argument.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

The lack of player trading by reason of scam prevention is an excellent example of running a market on socialism.

In a free market, you get some people who are intelligent enough to not get scammed and know how to best sell their items to get the price they want. These people get the full value for what they sell. You also get other people who are impatient, who don’t do research on the market, who don’t know how to sell or buy things in the best ways, and who are stupid enough to fall for dumb tricks. These people lose value constantly. Instead of supporting a system where skilled players get rewarded and dumb players get punished, ANet spreads the pain of being scammed onto everyone.

I think someone needs to read up on government responsibilities and duties. No, free markets are not absolutely free, not even in the real world. There are rules and laws to adhere to.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

This is great for the idiot who reads at a first-grade level and doesn’t have the mental awareness to avoid being fooled, because 15% loss all the time may be much better than sometimes 100%. The players that know what they’re doing though take a substantial hit all the time that no market ability can counteract. In fact, the only way around such a thing is to use a system that is even more scam prone and no way enforced, which puts a much greater risk on the market player than even the most basic system of two-way exchange. Even if this risk could somehow be accounted for, the recently introduced cap on gold transfers between players outright stops any transactions of considerably high levels from taking place more than a few times.

In other words, like most areas of GW2, players of all levels are robbed of their agency. For bad players, this is a minor loss, and perhaps even a benefit in some cases, while skilled players get completely dumped on. The biggest beneficiary of the whole thing is ANet, because a system which drains the economy so well by doing that every single time a transaction is made makes the most stereotypical scam of purchasing in-game gold with real world currency a sound business opportunity for the studio.

The irony in what you write is so delicious. Yes, you’d be one of these chums who does get scamed since you don’t undertand the most basic design decision behind the trading post.

Yes, the main benefactor of the TP fee is arenanet because, well because they enjoy making ingame gold go poof. It gets them off.

Then again, the ingame economy which does not spiral out of control due to inflation, as it does in many many many other MMOs, is of absolute no effect to the random player.

The TP fee allows arenanet to:

- prevent a more than necessary devotion of human ressources to the subject of ingame scams. ressources better used on other parts of the game → good for the player

- allows them to better manage and controll the ingame economy by keeping gray and blackmarkets to a minimum → good for general balance

- allows for better control of RMT → technically part of scaming, but I’ll put this as a seperate point since it is a majoy one → good for the player

All you suvival of the fittest hacks need to get out more. This is a game with rules, just as society has rules.

The primary reason I would be against player to player trading is to decrease and uniformly undermine racketeering and item monopoly. While economic guilds do exist of course the ability to, for the generic player anyway, create strong monopolizing forces is relatively weak.

A disenfranchised economy is a free economy after all.

Cyninja.2954:

I think someone needs to read up on government responsibilities and duties. No, free markets are not absolutely free, not even in the real world. There are rules and laws to adhere to.

Governments are monopolies on and initiators of force. As soon as you start talking about governments, you are talking about coercion and no longer talking about free markets.

The TP fee allows arenanet to:

- prevent a more than necessary devotion of human ressources to the subject of ingame scams. ressources better used on other parts of the game -> good for the player

- allows them to better manage and controll the ingame economy by keeping gray and blackmarkets to a minimum -> good for general balance

- allows for better control of RMT -> technically part of scaming, but I’ll put this as a seperate point since it is a majoy one -> good for the player

At the cost of:

- disallowing two-way exchange between willing parties -> bad for the player

- disallowing spontaneous adoption of useful and common resources as alternative currencies for players who wish to trade in something other than gold -> bad for the player

- neglecting to further utilize a system that already exists that is superior in the aim of not allowing exchange -> bad for the player

- legitimizing the unbounded printing of new currency through no spent effort -> bad for the player

- binding all regulatory forces on the market to a single party that also directly profits from the regulations they put in place -> bad for the player

All you suvival of the fittest hacks need to get out more. This is a game with rules, just as society has rules.

This is not a matter of rules vs. no rules and also not an argument.

Mikali.9651:

who cares about scams? It all makes game more immersive and alive.

No, you see, for it to be truly immersive you have to be able to catch the guy who scammed you and take your money/property back after PKing them, but since open world PvP and looting players isn’t a thing in GW2 there is no ability to get justice for yourself. Also since there’s no naming/shaming allowed, there’s no way for the community to police itself either.

What you’re advocating is simple cowardice, the ability to scam without fear of repercussions. Congratulations on being a massive hypocrite.

Pandaman.4758:

Mikali.9651:

who cares about scams? It all makes game more immersive and alive.

No, you see, for it to be truly immersive you have to be able to catch the guy who scammed you and take your money/property back after PKing them, but since open world PvP and looting players isn’t a thing in GW2 there is no ability to get justice for yourself. Also since there’s no naming/shaming allowed, there’s no way for the community to police itself either.

What you’re advocating is simple cowardice, the ability to scam without fear of repercussions. Congratulations on being a massive hypocrite.

mmmm I’d love to pk regardless if scam or not – would love to hear your cries. He is right though the lack of such things dulls the game. Its a game with zero risk.

BTW the majority of players ( prolly including a few of you) are still getting scammed even with the tp in place. Ive never kept track of the amount Ive made by putting up a trade substaintially below price and waiting for saps to underbid without checking, sad that I can’t /dance in their face afterward.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

The lack of player trading by reason of scam prevention is an excellent example of running a market on socialism.

In a free market, you get some people who are intelligent enough to not get scammed and know how to best sell their items to get the price they want. These people get the full value for what they sell. You also get other people who are impatient, who don’t do research on the market, who don’t know how to sell or buy things in the best ways, and who are stupid enough to fall for dumb tricks. These people lose value constantly. Instead of supporting a system where skilled players get rewarded and dumb players get punished, ANet spreads the pain of being scammed onto everyone.

This is great for the idiot who reads at a first-grade level and doesn’t have the mental awareness to avoid being fooled, because 15% loss all the time may be much better than sometimes 100%. The players that know what they’re doing though take a substantial hit all the time that no market ability can counteract. In fact, the only way around such a thing is to use a system that is even more scam prone and no way enforced, which puts a much greater risk on the market player than even the most basic system of two-way exchange. Even if this risk could somehow be accounted for, the recently introduced cap on gold transfers between players outright stops any transactions of considerably high levels from taking place more than a few times.

In other words, like most areas of GW2, players of all levels are robbed of their agency. For bad players, this is a minor loss, and perhaps even a benefit in some cases, while skilled players get completely dumped on. The biggest beneficiary of the whole thing is ANet, because a system which drains the economy so well by doing that every single time a transaction is made makes the most stereotypical scam of purchasing in-game gold with real world currency a sound business opportunity for the studio.

But you can arrange trades by mail. It may not be secure, but perhaps we can trust smart people to make arrangements with trustworthy people and not get scammed. You just have to take responsibility for your own actions and not rely on the powers that be to help you.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

At the cost of:

- disallowing two-way exchange between willing parties -> bad for the player

- disallowing spontaneous adoption of useful and common resources as alternative currencies for players who wish to trade in something other than gold -> bad for the player

- neglecting to further utilize a system that already exists that is superior in the aim of not allowing exchange -> bad for the player

- legitimizing the unbounded printing of new currency through no spent effort -> bad for the player

- binding all regulatory forces on the market to a single party that also directly profits from the regulations they put in place -> bad for the player

All you suvival of the fittest hacks need to get out more. This is a game with rules, just as society has rules.

This is not a matter of rules vs. no rules and also not an argument.

1- P2P trades can still happen, its called mail.
2- you are free to use any currency you like to trade. its called mail
3- TP>face to face for general public. other currency or trust trades can use mail.
4- “legitimizing the unbound printing of new currency through no spent effort” = LOL u wut m8?
5- much nonsense, so gibberish

your first 2 points were clear and the argument you were trying to convey was understood. then you went into try hard mode. instead of trying to talk like you have a PhD in economics and this is a column in the Wall Street Journal, lose the completely unnecessary law style gibberish and go back to what you did in points 1 and 2. trying to make people think you have point by trying to confuse them doesnt work.

people posting opinions and comments are as valid as providing an argument. or is it a rule of yours people can only post arguements?

also, i would be interested in knowing what you mean by limiting high quantity gold transfers you mentioned earlier. exactly how much and how often are you trying to move that you are being restricted?

TP is far and away the best system for general trading. its non-intrusive, easy to use and most importantly, FAIR FOR ALL. if you want/need to, you are always free to use the mail. people asking for P2P trading are clearly in the minority and i cant help but wonder why they fight so hard for an antiquated and risky method of trading.

I think you all forgot two more very important reasons for TP-trade

• It syncs NA and EU markets, where f2f trade isn’t possible
• Any reasonable amount of off-TP-trade makes black-market transactions (e.g. gold/items for real money) much harder to detect.

Btw. TP-trade isn’t taxed because it has costs, but because it makes the economy better. So why should f2f trade be tax-free? It can and should be taxed by 15% as well So: f2f trade is superfluous, it has only disadvantages.

echo.2053:

mmmm I’d love to pk regardless if scam or not – would love to hear your cries. He is right though the lack of such things dulls the game. Its a game with zero risk.

BTW the majority of players ( prolly including a few of you) are still getting scammed even with the tp in place. Ive never kept track of the amount Ive made by putting up a trade substaintially below price and waiting for saps to underbid without checking, sad that I can’t /dance in their face afterward.

if the only excitement you find in this game is in the trading, this isnt the game for you. congrats on Anet for not making trading the most dangerous area of the game.

your “scam” as you call it, is small potatoes compared to the massive losses F2F trading poses. the few coins i could lose at the trading post by posting below average market price is nothing compared to you changing out a high value item for an icon identical trash item. so keep doing the /dance about the copper you “made” and others will be satisfied you didnt scam them out of handfuls of gold.

but please, keep defending an archaic and terrible system. there is NO chance Anet will go back to it. thats all there is to it.

Pandaman.4758:

Mikali.9651:

who cares about scams? It all makes game more immersive and alive.

No, you see, for it to be truly immersive you have to be able to catch the guy who scammed you and take your money/property back after PKing them, but since open world PvP and looting players isn’t a thing in GW2 there is no ability to get justice for yourself. Also since there’s no naming/shaming allowed, there’s no way for the community to police itself either.

What you’re advocating is simple cowardice, the ability to scam without fear of repercussions. Congratulations on being a massive hypocrite.

look here, I’m not into scamming people around, but I do like negotiation, I think it’s important skill to have in real life, so it’s great when it can happen in game too.
You are a bit too much concentrated around “scamming” part of one-to-one trade, that is ridiculous.

See, in games that were one-on-one (or face-to-face) trade, if I didn’t have 1000g to buy something, but 700g, I could have pay those 300 with some other items.
Or just trade items for items in the first place. That is the beauty of it.
Everything being set in stone, like prices etc. takes away interesting stuff in economy and trading…aand negotiation.

Also, you are being scammed in the real life all the time, so what’s the deal with you all?
You don’t even know you are being scammed.

And for all this people who tell me I should take it easy cuz it’s the game…what the kitten kitten little kitten?
I’m not playing this game, I’m not playing games at all the way I had before, here and there gw1 and csgo.
I’ve just finished college and my field is in marketing and economics as it is.
I’m free to say my opinions, but you saying this nonsense….what the kitten kitten big kitten kittenly, makes you funny and totally trollish cuz there is no argument in that part, you just want create some reactions that I do not care of.

anger management maybe? wow.

to the topic,
you can still do the 1000G — 700G+??? trade, it just happens to be done by mail.
but how do you find these people that want to do that trade? thats the other side effect of F2F trading, the endless, annoying chat spam of traders looking for people to trade with.

i’m sure you can find trading sites out there with like-minded people that want F2F trading and haggling. feel free to explore that to scratch your negotiation itch. that style of trading has to be completed by mail though and the risk you take doing it is your own.

if you are so carefree of scams, then you shouldnt have any issue using the mail system and wont ask for Anet to create a completely unnecessary system.

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

anger management maybe? wow.

to the topic,
you can still do the 1000G — 700G+??? trade, it just happens to be done by mail.
but how do you find these people that want to do that trade? thats the other side effect of F2F trading, the endless, annoying chat spam of traders looking for people to trade with.

i’m sure you can find trading sites out there with like-minded people that want F2F trading and haggling. feel free to explore that to scratch your negotiation itch. that style of trading has to be completed by mail though and the risk you take doing it is your own.

if you are so carefree of scams, then you shouldnt have any issue using the mail system and wont ask for Anet to create a completely unnecessary system.

I’m not angry at all, that is your inner projection of my state. And it’s very wrong.
I’ve just been with girl out and we had nice beer and had great talk, I’m very happy if you really want kitten kittenly know my real state of my mind.

Btw, I write kitten down, it’s not curse word, but Anet likes kittens so I give them kittens, I’m provider Theeere you, I gave you a smile so you can better project my happiness and calmness. Do you feel better now?

Btw, we are dicussing face-to-face trading + trading post, not mail-to-mail. Why would you even bring that in discussion?

Don’t know for you, but spam chat happens all the time, w/e the content is, so you are free to disable it. There is also amazing thing people discovered for mmo players! More then one chat tab and window! Ain’t it great?
All your problems about it are already solved!

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

anger management maybe? wow.

to the topic,
you can still do the 1000G — 700G+??? trade, it just happens to be done by mail.
but how do you find these people that want to do that trade? thats the other side effect of F2F trading, the endless, annoying chat spam of traders looking for people to trade with.

i’m sure you can find trading sites out there with like-minded people that want F2F trading and haggling. feel free to explore that to scratch your negotiation itch. that style of trading has to be completed by mail though and the risk you take doing it is your own.

if you are so carefree of scams, then you shouldnt have any issue using the mail system and wont ask for Anet to create a completely unnecessary system.

lol i’m rather curious now where are you getting these 1000g-700g prices from? no doubtly you are going to say “from trying to switch precursors with their their fakes” – for which you would of been first in line to get scammed for – but their icons have been since changed. The rest of the items are 30 silver to 3 g – the low price mainly becuase you don’t ever have to stop to list items.

Mikali.9651:

Btw, I write kitten down, it’s not curse word, but Anet likes kittens so I give them kittens, I’m provider Theeere you, I gave you a smile so you can better project my happiness and calmness. Do you feel better now?

Btw, we are dicussing face-to-face trading + trading post, not mail-to-mail. Why would you even bring that in discussion?

Don’t know for you, but spam chat happens all the time, w/e the content is, so you are free to disable it. There is also amazing thing people discovered for mmo players! More then one chat tab and window! Ain’t it great?
All your problems about it are already solved!

when kitten is used in chat, it represents censorship. if you arent angry why are you using censored language? it makes you sound angry even if you arent.

next, mail is mentioned because there are legitimate other options open to traders than the TP. person to person trades can be done using the mail system to address all your current worries. ie: negotiation, alternate currencies

lastly, i have NEVER had an issue with map spam. not once in the time i have played GW2 (since Alpha). there is no city in GW2 that would even come close to the levels of Spamadan. and yes ty, i was already aware of all the chat tabs and options available but i rarely have to disable chats because there are is nothing worthy of being disabled.

echo.2053:

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

anger management maybe? wow.

to the topic,
you can still do the 1000G — 700G+??? trade, it just happens to be done by mail.
but how do you find these people that want to do that trade? thats the other side effect of F2F trading, the endless, annoying chat spam of traders looking for people to trade with.

i’m sure you can find trading sites out there with like-minded people that want F2F trading and haggling. feel free to explore that to scratch your negotiation itch. that style of trading has to be completed by mail though and the risk you take doing it is your own.

if you are so carefree of scams, then you shouldnt have any issue using the mail system and wont ask for Anet to create a completely unnecessary system.

lol i’m rather curious now where are you getting these 1000g-700g prices from? no doubtly you are going to say “from trying to switch precursors with their their fakes” – for which you would of been first in line to get scammed for – but their icons have been since changed. The rest of the items are 30 silver to 3 g – the low price mainly becuase you don’t ever have to stop to list items.

He answered on my price. I’ve said it as example for some other game where you actually trade with bigger gold at stake, so it’s not his mistake here

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

Mikali.9651:

Btw, I write kitten down, it’s not curse word, but Anet likes kittens so I give them kittens, I’m provider Theeere you, I gave you a smile so you can better project my happiness and calmness. Do you feel better now?

Btw, we are dicussing face-to-face trading + trading post, not mail-to-mail. Why would you even bring that in discussion?

Don’t know for you, but spam chat happens all the time, w/e the content is, so you are free to disable it. There is also amazing thing people discovered for mmo players! More then one chat tab and window! Ain’t it great?
All your problems about it are already solved!

when kitten is used in chat, it represents censorship. if you arent angry why are you using censored language? it makes you sound angry even if you arent.

next, mail is mentioned because there are legitimate other options open to traders than the TP. person to person trades can be done using the mail system to address all your current worries. ie: negotiation, alternate currencies

lastly, i have NEVER had an issue with map spam. not once in the time i have played GW2 (since Alpha). there is no city in GW2 that would even come close to the levels of Spamadan. and yes ty, i was already aware of all the chat tabs and options available but i rarely have to disable chats because there are is nothing worthy of being disabled.

I do know that, kitten represents censorship, I find it funny so I play with kitten around even tho it’s not censorshipped cuz I can’t get infracted or banned by it cuz there is nothing behind it. I’m just having fun with systems that are provided for us, living on a edge right? makes it all more interesting, for me.

I get it what you want to say about mail-to-mail, that is viable option that some of us are using (or used), tho we are here talking about face-to-face which really is different.

But yet again, we can agree that it’s just discussion, cuz trading post will never be disabled, the economic strategy and income it provides for Anet is too good. It’s the whole reason why this game is free to play (buy to play firstly).

Mikali.9651:

It does not happen on forums but ingame. At that place and time. And there naming and calling out isn’t banned.

The real problem here is you. You don’t want it. There is no other argument you yet provided that has strong base I could agree upon with you.
It’s just that you don’t want so you are giving some reasons, but they all go against you cuz they aren’t reasons that makes any problem that isn’t already happening or has system in place to work against it

so if i wasnt there at the time and place it happened, how do i know not to trade with said shady character? once they are discovered, they will do as they did in GW1 and move to another city/region and continue their ways. there is no way to moderate this type of activity.

you are 100% right. i dont want it. and i have given multiple reasons as to why i dont want it. i feel that there are perfectly acceptable options available to make trades and i use whats there. i also feel that F2F would bring about it unwanted effects, whether intended or unintended.

am i not entitled to my opinion as you are to yours?

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

Mikali.9651:

It does not happen on forums but ingame. At that place and time. And there naming and calling out isn’t banned.

The real problem here is you. You don’t want it. There is no other argument you yet provided that has strong base I could agree upon with you.
It’s just that you don’t want so you are giving some reasons, but they all go against you cuz they aren’t reasons that makes any problem that isn’t already happening or has system in place to work against it

so if i wasnt there at the time and place it happened, how do i know not to trade with said shady character? once they are discovered, they will do as they did in GW1 and move to another city/region and continue their ways. there is no way to moderate this type of activity.

you are 100% right. i dont want it. and i have given multiple reasons as to why i dont want it. i feel that there are perfectly acceptable options available to make trades and i use whats there. i also feel that F2F would bring about it unwanted effects, whether intended or unintended.

am i not entitled to my opinion as you are to yours?

You completely are, it’s just that I like real arguments.
But I will give you argument about “it can bring unwanted effects”, all others I can’t take I’m sorry.

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

next, mail is mentioned because there are legitimate other options open to traders than the TP. person to person trades can be done using the mail system to address all your current worries. ie: negotiation, alternate currencies

lastly, i have NEVER had an issue with map spam. not once in the time i have played GW2 (since Alpha). there is no city in GW2 that would even come close to the levels of Spamadan. and yes ty, i was already aware of all the chat tabs and options available but i rarely have to disable chats because there are is nothing worthy of being disabled.

LOLyou make this discussion fun. You don’t diable chats in GW2 because there is literally nothing to disable. The general chat is used for trolling or posting spoilers unless you are in the plant homeland in which case its ERPing. What makes it even more enteraining is that Anet had to implement megaservers just so that you didn’t have to feel lonely XDDDD

Fun fact through out the years I played GW1 I very rarely if at all had trade chat enabled while selling or buying – no issues #rebelwithoutacause

Mikali.9651:

You completely are, it’s just that I like real arguments.
But I will give you argument about “it can bring unwanted effects”, all others I can’t take I’m sorry.

thats fine, not everyone will agree on everything. i feel as strongly about not having it as you do about having it.

what could be done, is to have a website like gwguru/trading post was for GW1. an offsite place where people like yourself could go and put things up for sale that wouldnt necessarily fit in the trader. ie: WTT Twilight for Sunrise or WTS leather, will take silk in exchange. this would allow people to voice their offers, be able to barter and still have a record of who they traded with and for what items. unfortunately, there is still an element of risk but, i agree that a majority of F2F trades are legitimate and with good intentions.

if a F2F system could be implemented that would:
A- be non-intrusive to in-game chat
B- not create massive influx of complaints to service due to people unhappy with their trades for whatever reason
C- not ruin the economy (tax evasion)
then i would be willing to entertain the idea.

feel free to bring up suggestions to how Anet could do this and you might get something come of it. too often people offer no solutions while complain about things they dont have. (not aimed at anyone, just a general observation)

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

if a F2F system could be implemented that would:
A- be non-intrusive to in-game chat
B- not create massive influx of complaints to service due to people unhappy with their trades for whatever reason
C- not ruin the economy (tax evasion)

A. they can do the same thing as in gw1 don’t want to be part of a specific chat uncheck the box. the policy in regards to lfg can remain in place to prevent abuse.
B. Its not someone else responsibility to ensure that your trade is a good deal – try to take ownership for yourself.
C. As you did to someone else….. WHAT?!!?!?!? outside big ticket items the tax has absolute minuscule impact on trades. good job on that econ phd

Your point isn’t really proven when the difference between to game chats is just merely your refusal to enable/disable a certain chat

Shayne Hawke.9160:

In a free market, you get some people who are intelligent enough to not get scammed and know how to best sell their items to get the price they want. These people get the full value for what they sell. You also get other people who are impatient, who don’t do research on the market, who don’t know how to sell or buy things in the best ways, and who are stupid enough to fall for dumb tricks. These people lose value constantly. Instead of supporting a system where skilled players get rewarded and dumb players get punished, ANet spreads the pain of being scammed onto everyone.

Gw2 economy is a free market. You write so much that you dont understand what you write.

echo.2053:

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

if a F2F system could be implemented that would:
A- be non-intrusive to in-game chat
B- not create massive influx of complaints to service due to people unhappy with their trades for whatever reason
C- not ruin the economy (tax evasion)

A. they can do the same thing as in gw1 don’t want to be part of a specific chat uncheck the box. the policy in regards to lfg can remain in place to prevent abuse.
B. Its not someone else responsibility to ensure that your trade is a good deal – try to take ownership for yourself.
C. As you did to someone else….. WHAT?!!?!?!? outside big ticket items the tax has absolute minuscule impact on trades. good job on that econ phd

Your point isn’t really proven when the difference between to game chats is just merely your refusal to enable/disable a certain chat

currently,
i do not have to disable anything, i just open the trader window, search for what i want, buy the amount i need at the lowest available price over ALL servers and know that i have the best price available. if you didnt read about the tax as a gold sink, please go back. its kinda important.

OR,
i could toggle a trade chat option depending on whether i am trading or not, assuming i am, go from city to city to find the best possible offers (because no world chat, only map), keep track of who is offering what for what price and then try to contact them and start a negotiation session. from here i have to check and double check what i am being offered to make sure its not one of the 5% of times people try to scam, complete the offer. (this doesnt take into account that each world will start creating their own markets and soon you will find WTS/WTB chat in WvW to take advantages of price differences)

which do you think is easier, less time consuming and better for the GW2 world economy?

Mikali.9651:

Don’t try, they don’t even realise they are losing “copper by copper” every time they pay something in real life. They don’t see the difference, or even better, they follow the basic human psychology 49,99 is closer to 40, so I will pay it, I wouldn’t pay for 50, I mean, 50 is 50 kittenly kitten it’s too much.

But they always pay 50…ahh, good times indeed, even on tp they are scammed like nothing, it’s just too easy to get rich playing tp, yet they cry about scamming in face-to-face scenario.

Psychological pricing techniques, esp. those relating to the left-most digit, are actually not a universally accepted thing in economics as being reliably viable. How people decide what is and isn’t worthwhile is far more than tacking on pennies and especially so when working with predominantly understood completely fake and relatively infinite currencies.

TL;DC: “Totally different.”

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

echo.2053:

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

if a F2F system could be implemented that would:
A- be non-intrusive to in-game chat
B- not create massive influx of complaints to service due to people unhappy with their trades for whatever reason
C- not ruin the economy (tax evasion)

A. they can do the same thing as in gw1 don’t want to be part of a specific chat uncheck the box. the policy in regards to lfg can remain in place to prevent abuse.
B. Its not someone else responsibility to ensure that your trade is a good deal – try to take ownership for yourself.
C. As you did to someone else….. WHAT?!!?!?!? outside big ticket items the tax has absolute minuscule impact on trades. good job on that econ phd

Your point isn’t really proven when the difference between to game chats is just merely your refusal to enable/disable a certain chat

currently,
i do not have to disable anything, i just open the trader window, search for what i want, buy the amount i need at the lowest available price over ALL servers and know that i have the best price available. if you didnt read about the tax as a gold sink, please go back. its kinda important.

OR,
i could toggle a trade chat option depending on whether i am trading or not, assuming i am, go from city to city to find the best possible offers (because no world chat, only map), keep track of who is offering what for what price and then try to contact them and start a negotiation session. from here i have to check and double check what i am being offered to make sure its not one of the 5% of times people try to scam, complete the offer. (this doesnt take into account that each world will start creating their own markets and soon you will find WTS/WTB chat in WvW to take advantages of price differences)

which do you think is easier, less time consuming and better for the GW2 world economy?

you mean the mere 10% sales+5% list fee of items 30 silver to 3 gold ohhhh yeah must be absolutely ravaging gold supplies. Go ahead and use your phd in econ to remind us how much gold is being removed, compared to that of the MF or ecto gamble.

Price is based on supply /demand. What would happen to item prices if players had to stop to sell? come on power of the econ degree.

Ps btw don’t know if you realize it but player moral in regards to getting scammed and gold sinks are two different subjects

Mikali.9651:

Pandaman.4758:

Mikali.9651:

who cares about scams? It all makes game more immersive and alive.

No, you see, for it to be truly immersive you have to be able to catch the guy who scammed you and take your money/property back after PKing them, but since open world PvP and looting players isn’t a thing in GW2 there is no ability to get justice for yourself. Also since there’s no naming/shaming allowed, there’s no way for the community to police itself either.

What you’re advocating is simple cowardice, the ability to scam without fear of repercussions. Congratulations on being a massive hypocrite.

look here, I’m not into scamming people around, but I do like negotiation, I think it’s important skill to have in real life, so it’s great when it can happen in game too.
You are a bit too much concentrated around “scamming” part of one-to-one trade, that is ridiculous.

Didn’t say you’re scamming, I’m saying your crying about people being weak and talking about how the game shouldn’t prevent scamming is hypocritical because, as the game is currently set up, only one party bears any risk in a scam.

Want a game where people have to deal with risks? Both sides need to bear the risk then. A trader needs to deal with the risk of being scammed, a scammer needs to deal with the risk of being punished (either by the person they scammed or the community), but the latter isn’t possible in this game, so you’ll just have to deal with the former not being allowed either.

And of course I’m focused on the scamming part of the problem, this is the internet, anonymity fuels behavior in people that they wouldn’t dare do in real life. You’re being naive if you don’t think it would be a problem.

Also, you are being scammed in the real life all the time, so what’s the deal with you all?
You don’t even know you are being scammed.

And for all this people who tell me I should take it easy cuz it’s the game…what the kitten kitten little kitten?
I’m not playing this game, I’m not playing games at all the way I had before, here and there gw1 and csgo.
I’ve just finished college and my field is in marketing and economics as it is.
I’m free to say my opinions, but you saying this nonsense….what the kitten kitten big kitten kittenly, makes you funny and totally trollish cuz there is no argument in that part, you just want create some reactions that I do not care of.

Look at it this way: as someone in marketing, do you think it would be appropriate for you to write to a client the same way you’re posting now? No? So why aren’t you writing in a proper, mediated fashion on the forums as it’s also an important skill to have in real life?

Could it be that there’s just some aspect of real life that you don’t want to deal with while gaming?

Shayne Hawke.9160:

ArchonWing.9480:

But you can arrange trades by mail. It may not be secure, but perhaps we can trust smart people to make arrangements with trustworthy people and not get scammed. You just have to take responsibility for your own actions and not rely on the powers that be to help you.

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

1- P2P trades can still happen, its called mail.
2- you are free to use any currency you like to trade. its called mail
3- TP>face to face for general public. other currency or trust trades can use mail.

A series of one-way transfers under verbal agreement with no enforceable contract to dictate what happens if someone breaks the series is not a set of terms that any business or customer would want to operate under.

Maybe you should try to be consistent? Who exactly is going to enforce those contracts? Remember, as you have already said, just mentioning “government” (so, Anet, in this case) makes a market not free anymore. And “Free market” was something you specifically asked for. So why Anet should enforce those trades for you when you said you didn’t want it in the first place?

Though, of course, i do agree with what you said there. Which is why TP is a superior system for any reasonable customer.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

TP is far and away the best system for general trading. its non-intrusive, easy to use and most importantly, FAIR FOR ALL.

This is not an argument. You can easily make the same statement about direct trade systems.

Ah, but you didn’t make any such statement. Quite the oppsite, you did mention how direct trade systems favour those with skill in trading, letting them exploit everyone else (so, a majority of players). In fact, you brought it as a high point of the system.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

…socialism…
…free market…
…players of all levels are robbed of their agency.

Hehe.

I’m getting plenty of ‘agency’ on the existing trading post. The tax is higher than most markets, but given it’s not going to those with less resources than I have, it’s a pretty poor kind of socialism. And I mean that in the same way as a car without wheels and an engine is a pretty poor kind of car.

But regardless of where that 15% goes, I’m still getting rich off it.

Ben K.6238:

Shayne Hawke.9160:

…socialism…
…free market…
…players of all levels are robbed of their agency.

Hehe.

I’m getting plenty of ‘agency’ on the existing trading post. The tax is higher than most markets, but given it’s not going to those with less resources than I have, it’s a pretty poor kind of socialism. And I mean that in the same way as a car without wheels and an engine is a pretty poor kind of car.

But regardless of where that 15% goes, I’m still getting rich off it.

Actually while people are on the “tax” it actually hurts the poor and keeps the wealthy as such in this system because the tax itself doesn’t go anywhere. The gold simply disappears from the system altogether.

Hmm.. kind of. The only way it could hurt the GW2 “poor” is because they’d be paying 15% extra. But at the same time it makes commodity prices less volatile than they would be because you have to bridge that 15% when flipping them before you’re making any money. So it also makes pump and dump a lot riskier, which I’d figure means the GW2 “poor” are paying lower prices on average for rare items.

It doesnt.
Where do you think the merchants scattered around the world get the gold to buy all your useless junk items from?
The game has no supply / demand economics in it as far as the NPCs go.
They will always buy your junk for the same price regardless of how much of the same junk they have bought off other players.
MMOs have infinite resources which never run out and NPCs who will always buy your junk, so without some sort of taxes, then hyperinflation will happen.
It usually does anyway after a long time .
A better option would be some kind of wealth tax which would hit the richer players, but that would be too unpopular.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

- disallowing spontaneous adoption of useful and common resources as alternative currencies for players who wish to trade in something other than gold -> bad for the player

No, we absolutely do not need people driving up the prices of crafting materials because they’re using them as play money. Eliminating that was one of the best things the TP did, after eliminating the constant trade spam.

Thats not possible unless you have a monopoly supply of the crafting materials, and thats impossible in an MMO where anyone is free to gather any crafting materials.

Hyperinflation requires exponential increase in the supply of currency. You don’t get that in GW2 unless people are getting an exponential increase in drops. There is going to be some extent of inflation so long as people are selling more to merchants than they’re buying.

The idea of NPC merchants being bound by limited money and a need to do something with all the junk they buy is an interesting one, but I suspect the improvement in players’ gameplay experience might be questionable.

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

so, because you arent aware this type of transaction happens daily, then it must have no bearing on the topic. gotcha.

I looked up the kind of transaction you referenced and provided you with the definition. It is not what you stated it is and the difference invalidates your use of it.

you can have (valid) contracts in both written or verbal form. i see no difference between 2 players verbally agreeing to an exchange. or are you asking for Anet to cover your butt provide insurance for making trades that is trying to sidestep the existing system?

Contracts are only meaningful if they are enforceable. There is no ability for a player or group of players to enforce any contract with enough consequence to deter its breach in GW2.

I don’t recall ever asking for anything. Please address my arguments and not strawmen.

i like how you assume i even click the links you post. i dont. they are “not an arguement” and as such, are not a valid use of my time. you should trade mark that sentence, it works for you, it really does.

This is not an argument. Also, you were never a person I was trying to convince.

FrenzyApe.5809:

Gw2 economy is a free market. You write so much that you dont understand what you write.

From wiki:

Wiki

A free market is a market economy system in which the prices for goods and services are set freely by consent between vendors and consumers, in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority. It is a result of a need being, then the need being met. A free market contrasts with a regulated market, in which government intervenes in supply and demand through non-market methods such as laws creating barriers to market entry or price fixing. In a free-market economy, prices for goods and services are set freely by the forces of supply and demand and are allowed to reach their point of equilibrium without intervention by government policy, and it typically entails support for highly competitive markets and private ownership of productive enterprises.

It’s very clearly not.

Please take at least twenty seconds to look up these definitions and read them to make sure you know what is being talked about before you claim someone else doesn’t.

Astralporing.1957:

Who exactly is going to enforce those contracts? Remember, as you have already said, just mentioning “government” (so, Anet, in this case) makes a market not free anymore. And “Free market” was something you specifically asked for. So why Anet should enforce those trades for you when you said you didn’t want it in the first place?

Governments are not the only agencies which are capable of enforcing contracts. However, in the presence of a government, any option to enforce a contract that is used by the government may not be used by any inside that government. (At least in the real world, not without consequence brought down by that government. While real world restrictions are like “should not or else”, game restrictions can also be “can not, ever, in any way, at all”.) ANet may ban players, but players can not ban each other. ANet may silence players, but players can not silence each other. ANet can restrict players in exchanging goods, but players can not restrict each other. ANet may seize goods it determines to be obtained illegitimately, but players can not seize any assets from each other. ANet may pass negative judgment against a player, but players may not pass negative judgment against each other. If, for some reason, you feel that a player has done any of these actions, then it is only thanks to a sanction for a use of power granted by ANet that this is capable. No player independent of ANet could do these things.

To figure out who is going to enforce contracts in GW2, you need to recognize how many means of enforcing a contract have already been stripped from players by rules set in place by ANet. The same is also true in many other MMOs, except in many other MMOs, there exists a system of direct player trading. This system doesn’t require any oversight or enforcement from the developer because the contract is written up, agreed to, and carried out automatically by willing parties by design. Just take GW’s system of player trading for example.

• Box pops up, items and money are placed inside – the contract is written.
• Items or money inside the box changes – the contract is rewritten.
• Players press accept – the contract is agreed to.
• The trade window closes and the goods are exchanged (unless this is impossible for some reason, like one player not having enough space to accept the trade items, which results in no exchange occurring and the contract being nullified) – the contract is carried out.

The influence ANet has on this exchange is minor – a cap of seven item slots and 100 platinum, both of which are arbitrary or aesthetic choices and the limitations of which were answered by player-driven solutions. Players aren’t forced to trade one way at a time or charged a fee for their agreement. They aren’t fixed to one currency or without recourse in breaching the limit. Purely free market, it is not, but it is far closer to that than anything remotely like the GW2 market.

Though, of course, i do agree with what you said there. Which is why TP is a superior system for any reasonable customer.

There is no way you could agree with me and reach precisely the opposite conclusion.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

Suicidal Hamster.4816:

TP is far and away the best system for general trading. its non-intrusive, easy to use and most importantly, FAIR FOR ALL.

This is not an argument. You can easily make the same statement about direct trade systems.

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, but you didn’t make any such statement. Quite the oppsite, you did mention how direct trade systems favour those with skill in trading, letting them exploit everyone else (so, a majority of players). In fact, you brought it as a high point of the system.

You are conflating equality with fairness. In almost no place in the real world will you find true equality amongst human beings. To have that standard, you must believe the entire world is unfair because there is so much inequality. If you believe there is fairness in GW2, where would you find that equality? Are people on the trading post equal because they all must sell their goods through that system and incur the appropriate 5% and 10% fees for selling things? Why would this be any less equal (or fair) than a system where no player accrues a fee for conducting their business? Or a system where players interact directly than by proxy?

You’re also using “exploit” to describe a transaction between two willing parties. You can’t universalize this thought and not have your head explode. Well, maybe you can. Let me put this another way: do you or your parents shop for groceries during the week and feel like you are being exploited because you’ve chosen to purchase food? When you purchased GW2, did you feel like ANet was exploiting you for letting you give them money for a game you wanted to play? If you or your parents fill up a car with gas and find that the price per gallon has dropped 20 cents the next day, do you feel exploited by the gas station for choosing to buy gas the day before? The point I’m trying to get across is that there is no exploitation here. If one party has one thing and the other has another, each party wants what the other has instead of what they have themselves, and they agree to trade that which they have for that which they don’t, then they each find themselves to gain from the transaction. It’s not as though one person gains at the other’s expense.

Maybe you should try to be consistent?

That would have been a good standard to try to hold me to if you had actually pointed out an inconsistency, which you didn’t, because there isn’t one, because I’m not.

The TP isnt fair because of flipping or any other mechanism which allows players to make gold from the TP by simply buying and selling items.
Where do you think the gold that these players are making is coming from?

mauried.5608:

The TP isnt fair because of flipping or any other mechanism which allows players to make gold from the TP by simply buying and selling items.
Where do you think the gold that these players are making is coming from?

Are you saying profit isn’t fair?

Try universalizing that.

Extolling the theoretical virtues of pure free markets is all fine and well, but GW2 is fundamentally incapable of supporting that. It would require changes in community policies, tools available to players (to allow enforcement of contracts), and methods to verify identity to ensure accountability that are currently unavailable.

Even if ANet were to implement such changes, it would turn GW2 into a niche game like Eve Online, that’s clearly not something ANet wants their game to become.

mauried.5608:

The TP isnt fair because of flipping or any other mechanism which allows players to make gold from the TP by simply buying and selling items.
Where do you think the gold that these players are making is coming from?

From people who knowingly and willingly provide that gold in exchange for items provided by the “flipper”? There’s mutual consent every step of the way. Why isn’t that fair?

mauried.5608:

The TP isnt fair because of flipping or any other mechanism which allows players to make gold from the TP by simply buying and selling items.
Where do you think the gold that these players are making is coming from?

I assume your definition of “flipper” includes anyone who isn’t intending to use the item bought as is. Because I buy loads of items off the TP, with bids, with the intent of salvaging them and selling the mats. It can be more lucrative than “flipping”.

But it boils down to players who treat the TP like an NPC vendor and always go for the “sell immediate” option and freely accepting coppers on the silver for the immediacy. They want to keep short changing themselves because they can’t take any time to pick up the coin they freely leave behind, it’s not my place to complain. And while they B&M about how poor they are I’m going to keep farming the items they don’t realize the value of, because they are unwilling to learn.

20 gold a day for a 1/2 an hour of work if that.

Where does that gold come from? Ignorant or lazy or in a rush or simply don’t care players, both selling and buying.

The devs did try once to get players to place sell orders and bids by default and the player base rioted because of the extra couple of clicks needed to switch to sell now and buy now rather than enter a value. If they don’t want to spend the time, for whatever reason, it’s their choice to give me their coin. When I buy something I pay more than the next guy for it and when I sell it’s lower than the next guy, otherwise it’s not sold to or bought from me.

Behellagh.1468:

When I buy something I pay more than the next guy for it and when I sell it’s lower than the next guy, otherwise it’s not sold to or bought from me.

oh yes, that’s the kind of mind set I love. I make so much gold of these people its silly. find a market that’s moving quickly place a small quantity waaay outside price range and wait for a lollipop. They come in and base on normal reflex underbid me only to have their entire stock bought up by a waiting me at a major discount price XD.

The funny thing between tp and f2f is both require consent throughout the transaction – nobody is forcing you to click accept. If you fail to determine item value before clicking accept you deserve to be taken advantage of.

The only way the TP isn’t a free market is that you can’t buy something for more than the lowest offered price (which actually makes the market more efficient, economically speaking) and you can’t sell it for less than its vendor price. Neither of these adversely impact on its function, they just prevent people getting ripped off. A 15% sales tax does not break a free market.

But then, Randroids are notoriously impervious to reason.

it has been explained so many times…

it is to keep the value of gold stable by taking out some gold and on the TP you also cannot get scammed

Theres a differance between a free market and a fair market.
The TP doesnt guarantee that items will be sold for a fair price as anyone can list items for ridiculously high prices, and provided that no one else is selling that item then its available to buy for the stupid price.
One of the arguments against player to player trading is that people could get ripped off by buying items which are overpriced.
The TP doesnt prevent this.
It also worth asking under what circumstances would players prefer a player to player trade over buying from the TP. (assuming the tax for both was the same).
In the time I played WOW which has player to player trading, most p2p trades were in circumstances where the items that were wanted wernt being sold on the WOW auction house at all, and such players knew extremely well what the prices for such items should be.
So the argument that p2p trades enabled scamming just didnt happen.

mauried.5608:

Theres a differance between a free market and a fair market.
The TP doesnt guarantee that items will be sold for a fair price as anyone can list items for ridiculously high prices, and provided that no one else is selling that item then its available to buy for the stupid price.
One of the arguments against player to player trading is that people could get ripped off by buying items which are overpriced.
The TP doesnt prevent this.

It does.
On TP time will fix everything.

Even if ANET released a new iten today, even if the first person try putting a overprice for it, the rest of the community will quickly drop it. Because in the end, people want to sell then as fast as possible.

a simple solution to making lolspamtradechat stop is to turn it off when you aren’t trying to trade something.
the reason anet won’t put this in is its playerbase has a horrible understanding of this, well one reason at least.

GodOfWar.3624:

WereDragon.6083:

GodOfWar.3624:

Why can’t I have something risk and fee-free? Why am I not allowed to have that as the player? What’s wrong with giving me the possibility?

Because trade systems across nearly all MMO’s suffer the risk of scams. THe trading post does not.

How the hell do you get scammed in a trade where you have to confirm?

You would think it’s not a thing but you know .. it happens.

I don’t think the point here is how it happens, the point is that as it stand right now, you CAN’T be scammed in GW2. I don’t think that’s the reason for the lack of P2P trading, but it’s a great side effect of it.

In all honesty, I can’t think of a reason to implement P2P trading, other than simply wanting it. If you think about it, P2P trading can significantly undermine revenues from GW2 so that’s likely the motivator.

SoulSin.5682:

It does.
On TP time will fix everything.

Even if ANET released a new iten today, even if the first person try putting a overprice for it, the rest of the community will quickly drop it. Because in the end, people want to sell then as fast as possible.

More that people want to sell them at all. Particularly with 5% of the tax paid on listing, you don’t want to price something so high that it’ll never sell. If you’re willing to bet the price will come up, that’s another thing, but personally I don’t even list an item until I’m reasonably sure the price is going to hit that point.

But yeah, while the TP doesn’t prevent getting ripped off it makes it a lot less likely, because someone has to manipulate the market to do that, and for items with high trade volumes that’s very difficult indeed.

GodOfWar.3624:

Why do I have to go through the trade center? This is literally the only MMORPG I recall that has this anti-social system as obligatory.

Why not implement a trading system? It would take no time at all and we wouldn’t get feed by the trading post market. I could sell high priced goods without a huge penalty or risking it with the mail system.

You can trade player to player at your own risk. That’s the best you are going to get.

Gw2 doesn’t need a better grey market system just so you can save more on high end sales… We don’t need anything that just enables and encourage gold sellers and scamming. We don’t need price inflation on the bltc because all the grey marketeers will just gobble things up and drive up the prices due to scarcity… We don’t need other gold sinks forced on us due to the loss of a major gold sink with the bltc… We don’t need grey market spam or a grey market spam channel either…

You don’t know what you are asking for. Your idea will hurt you, and everyone else, in the long run…

I don’t agree when the devs increase crafting mat requirements on established items, but I do agree with how they run the bltc and the economy in general.