Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

LouWolfskin.3492:

The big problem isn’t coordination but the fact that people apparantely can’t step up to the fact that Guild Wars 2 already puts all players on a server in a huge party and that they maybe should acting like it.

Well, having every player work as a part of the greater whole, and not as an individual is exactly what coordination is about.

I actually disagree with that. It’s not coordination, it’s something that should come naturally.
When you play an ele and see damage rain down on other players your first instinct should be: Water attunment, healing stuff.
When you see someone with conditions as a necro you should either have a trait that pulls conditions, the Plague Signet or Well of Power ready.
When you play as a guard maybe your first instinct shouldn’t be: Let’s go for signets all the way, but maybe use some shouts (aside Retreat! and Safe yourself! honestly, those two shouldn’t even exist in the game as it is.)

The problem isn’t coordination but that every player thinks about himself first.
It’s not too little coordination but an ego that’s grown too big.

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

Yeah…

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

Yeah…

If you don’t get my point, just say so.
Together doesn’t mean coordinated, it simply means, together.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

Yeah…

If you don’t get my point, just say so.
Together doesn’t mean coordinated, it simply means, together.

It’s how they’re playing together that you’re suggesting.

What you’re essentially saying is similar to the following:

“It’s not hot in here, it’s just that the temperature is really high.”

Ayrilana.1396:

“It’s not hot in here, it’s just that the temperature is really high.”

Is this where I make jokes about player perception (hot) versus ANet’s metrics (temperature)?

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

Yeah…

If you don’t get my point, just say so.
Together doesn’t mean coordinated, it simply means, together.

It’s how they’re playing together that you’re suggesting.

What you’re essentially saying is similar to the following:

“It’s not hot in here, it’s just that the temperature is really high.”

So, if i’m going into an event, healing someone with my Well of Blood, that’s coordinated?

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

Yeah…

If you don’t get my point, just say so.
Together doesn’t mean coordinated, it simply means, together.

It’s how they’re playing together that you’re suggesting.

What you’re essentially saying is similar to the following:

“It’s not hot in here, it’s just that the temperature is really high.”

What i’m saying is that maybe people shouldn’t think about themselves all the time.
Honestly, would it hurt you that much to maybe use something aside damage from time to time?

Don’t say it’s not coordination then. Having players bring certain skills, or builds, to complement other players, whether in a group or zerg, is one aspect of coordination. Coordination isn’t simply just one or more players barking orders.

LouWolfskin.3492:

What i’m saying is that maybe people shouldn’t think about themselves all the time.
Honestly, would it hurt you that much to maybe use something aside damage from time to time?

That delves into the realm of “dead monsters don’t hurt.” Damage is, in GW2, the optimum approach to all things. And all classes are capable of support in some way, if built for it, so there’s not much need to focus in that direction.

The problem comes in when most world encounters are designed huge monoliths as HP sponges and little else going on. If the mob hits, it either does nothing, or it’s a cheap one-shot death with very little in between. Conditions beyond vulnerability are pointless in those fights, and support is relegated to might/fury stacking. Dungeons will, at least, call for vigor/aegis/stability.

It’s a not a good state of affairs, really.

Rauderi.8706:

LouWolfskin.3492:

What i’m saying is that maybe people shouldn’t think about themselves all the time.
Honestly, would it hurt you that much to maybe use something aside damage from time to time?

That delves into the realm of “dead monsters don’t hurt.” Damage is, in GW2, the optimum approach to all things. And all classes are capable of support in some way, if built for it, so there’s not much need to focus in that direction.

The problem comes in when most world encounters are designed huge monoliths as HP sponges and little else going on. If the mob hits, it either does nothing, or it’s a cheap one-shot death with very little in between. Conditions beyond vulnerability are pointless in those fights, and support is relegated to might/fury stacking. Dungeons will, at least, call for vigor/aegis/stability.

It’s a not a good state of affairs, really.

That’s exactly why i suggested a lot of changes to that elsewhere already, like healing veterans, conditions, buffs, even a Map-Scaling atop of the Event scaling and so forth.
To aim for a playstyle that doesn’t put damage at the top of everything.
If you want that kind of game a RPG is usually not the genre.

I don’t find anything challenging if it allows me to stack and burst damage, and simply throw skills at them without need. It feels like even if we don’t have that many skills like WoW, the button smashing is way too heavier here.

There are a lot of interesting mechanics that, when coupled in an intelligent manner, can offer a good difficult and well-balanced fight. Of course, all difficult content must be optional, all hardcore-gamer friends I know don’t follow that ideology of forcing others to do harder content. They just kinda feel out of place because as much as they try, they just can’t find anything challenging, only button smashing and puppet dodging, as if these meant something.

Stating this game doesn’t support actual well thought out difficult content is a sign of misconceptions, lack of creativity or simply ignorance. 2¢

Dead monsters may not hurt, dead players however don’t deal damage.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.

That is also coordination. Just not a centralized one.

LouWolfskin.3492:

So, if i’m going into an event, healing someone with my Well of Blood, that’s coordinated?

No. That is just you acting on your own. If, however, all other people also do their part, then the whole group is coordinated. Whether it happens organically or as a result of someone’s leadership.

I’m one of a group of people that actually liked the marionette (and its now my favorite Vista to visit because i could say “i was there to see it/play it”) and moreso i liked it even if we failed because the successes against it were even more awesome. Sure it took some coordination and teaching people how to do it, but man it felt great and alive and yeah…i miss it. Unfortunately its a logistical nightmare for Anet to please most people (even those that liked the event), so i don’t see them doing something like that again, or if they do it will have to be for something super major, like say, a new dragon. WINKWINKandabigNUDGENUDGE. I’d get on board for something like that for sure. It would definitely make up for pewpew at big Z nonsense.

I’m curious what you feel difficult content is and how you would design it for this game.

Keep in mind there are no raids – so you have to deal with a zerg. I think Anet is getting the right idea in finding ways to split the zerg up.

Take Marionette, this new Mordrem boss, the 5 bosses after the forts in Silverwastes, the Triple Headed Wurm, etc. Even Teq to some extent when you have to defend.

None of which have automatically succeeded without so much a blink of an eye. Problem with the megaserver though is while trying to command, get a bunch of people attempting to listen so you can win. It’s frustrating, work, and a lot of time and effort. And when it doesn’t succeed, it’s even more frustrating.

Now things like Liadri were difficult, but people found specific builds that made it easy. And people find specific builds and teams that make dungeon runs easy.

So, try this. Stick with one build. And use it everywhere. PvP. WvW. Dungeons. World bosses. Don’t switch things up to make fights easier – see if you can master one build across everywhere. I think you’ll find it’s harder than it is.

Megaservers. That’s your problem. If the content is too hard, you NEED to be lucky enough to find yourself on a good megaserver.

Also, yeah coordination =! difficulty.

I wouldn’t mind several tiers of difficulty for dungeons for instance. With maybe better rewards for the harder ones (even though GW2 rewards are known to suck in general).

Stark.1350:

I’m curious what you feel difficult content is and how you would design it for this game.

Keep in mind there are no raids – so you have to deal with a zerg. I think Anet is getting the right idea in finding ways to split the zerg up.

Take Marionette, this new Mordrem boss, the 5 bosses after the forts in Silverwastes, the Triple Headed Wurm, etc. Even Teq to some extent when you have to defend.

None of which have automatically succeeded without so much a blink of an eye. Problem with the megaserver though is while trying to command, get a bunch of people attempting to listen so you can win. It’s frustrating, work, and a lot of time and effort. And when it doesn’t succeed, it’s even more frustrating.

Now things like Liadri were difficult, but people found specific builds that made it easy. And people find specific builds and teams that make dungeon runs easy.

So, try this. Stick with one build. And use it everywhere. PvP. WvW. Dungeons. World bosses. Don’t switch things up to make fights easier – see if you can master one build across everywhere. I think you’ll find it’s harder than it is.

People don’t switch up builds for the dungeon metas to make things easier, they do it to make them faster. I could easily do a dungeon with my WvW builds, it’d just take longer and waste my time and whatever 4 unlucky people got stuck with me.

People avoid the truly hard content (sometimes with excuses as per aether) and try to excel at easier content.

Actions speak louder than words, and until that pattern changes, I can’t see much drive on Anet’s side to work on these complaints even if they did want to cater to a minority.

SkylightMoon.1980:

I figured the new world boss would be a mega-boss type scenario, unfortunately its not. I don’t understand why we can’t have organized group level difficulty. Anet has designed the perfect system for this with the multiple-tier event system that can cater to casual and hardcore alike.

A good example of the perfectly designed event was Escape from Lions arch. It has like 5 difficulties of tier completion. Lower to mid were for pugs and it was fine, then there was a high 1500 citizens saved(or 1200) which needed an organized group usually, and that was perfect for guilds.

I don’t see why this wasn’t done with silverwastes or dry top. All that really needs to be done is adding another tier that is the hardcore tier. I think thats actually a more efficient way of designing hardcore content, because its so easy to do. You could make any event have a hardcore level difficulty, if naturally it has a tier system to it.

Cause it sucks, dude!

Liadri to this day was the worst content ever made.

And this is coming from someone who got ALL Liadri achievements.

I think the problem with difficult content is that difficulty is subjective.
What even is difficult?
Something that takes a long time to complete?
Something that takes “skill”? Then again what is considered “skill”?
Something that takes teamwork?
Something that makes use of unusual tactics? Then what are those supposed to be?

The thing is, there is no one that can give an answer that will please EVERYONE.

Some find the Dark Souls games to be incredibly difficult, while others blaze through it like it’s nothing. But it is still seen by the majority as a good game, so until we can decide what difficult means, there really isn’t anything Anet can do to please you.

When they make hard content, people will just find a way to cheese through it. The elite and hard mode area’s in gw1 are a perfect example of this.

Tharomir.6985:

This game is catered to the lowest common denominator. There are far more casual players than hardcore ones.

You say that like it’s a bad thing. Besides, even hardcore players start out as casuals.

Anyway, having “difficult content” is vague. I bet most of the content that this game pushed out started out difficult but players manage to pull it off after a day’s worth of tries. What are you after when it comes to difficult content.

I can think of one idea.

You know how in most raids in other MMOs, the tactics of a boss changes depending on how much health he has left? Why not have that be applied to world bosses as well? Take Tequatl for instance. If he is like 25 percent health or something have him do something powerful like flying in the air and firing a dragon breath critically harming the main zerg force if they weren’t able to evade in time.

BeVa.4895:

I think the problem with difficult content is that difficulty is subjective.
What even is difficult?
Something that takes a long time to complete?
Something that takes “skill”? Then again what is considered “skill”?
Something that takes teamwork?
Something that makes use of unusual tactics? Then what are those supposed to be?

The thing is, there is no one that can give an answer that will please EVERYONE.

Thats the problem .. and in the end the answer in MMOs is mostly something that
only makes the game more annoying.

- more hitpoints
- more damage
- more one-hit kills
- more CC

With all the RNG at some point we could also make an instance that you have to
enter an leave 50 times with a 20% to die when you enter, and if you have entered
50 times without one death than you have won against a “real hard challenge”.

Beldin.5498:

BeVa.4895:

I think the problem with difficult content is that difficulty is subjective.
What even is difficult?
Something that takes a long time to complete?
Something that takes “skill”? Then again what is considered “skill”?
Something that takes teamwork?
Something that makes use of unusual tactics? Then what are those supposed to be?

The thing is, there is no one that can give an answer that will please EVERYONE.

Thats the problem .. and in the end the answer in MMOs is mostly something that
only makes the game more annoying.

- more hitpoints
- more damage
- more one-hit kills
- more CC

Yeah because no one knows what difficult content is supposed to be… not even the players.

Game designers often ask the question:
“Why is “more x” a problem and how can we solve it?"

And the moment they try something new, they get criticized for making it “gimmicky”. Because people want a challenge, but do not want to do the same thing AND do not want to do something different.

BeVa.4895:

Beldin.5498:

BeVa.4895:

I think the problem with difficult content is that difficulty is subjective.
What even is difficult?
Something that takes a long time to complete?
Something that takes “skill”? Then again what is considered “skill”?
Something that takes teamwork?
Something that makes use of unusual tactics? Then what are those supposed to be?

The thing is, there is no one that can give an answer that will please EVERYONE.

Thats the problem .. and in the end the answer in MMOs is mostly something that
only makes the game more annoying.

- more hitpoints
- more damage
- more one-hit kills
- more CC

Yeah because no one knows what difficult content is supposed to be… not even the players.

Game designers often ask the question:
“Why is “more x” a problem and how can we solve it?"

And the moment they try something new, they get criticized for making it “gimmicky”. Because people want a challenge, but do not want to do the same thing AND do not want to do something different.

I was tempted to make a post/thread asking what people thought difficulty was. I see it going two ways which is increased stats for enemies or increased usage of mechanics. The former would be criticized as artificial difficulty while the latter would be criticized as gimmicky. Sometimes I’ve seen the same people criticizing both leading me to believe they have absolutely no idea what they want.

The game is targeted at a large audience. It has been designed to embrace casual players along with the usual mmo gamers. Explore the game. You may find challenging stuff elsewhere

A good example of why you can’t have too many difficult content look at queen’s gauntlet and Wildstar as inspiration. People whine how difficult Gauntlet was and wildstar is changing their policies to cater to more than simply the minority that want “difficult” content aka content with best reward.

Guild wars 2 has some difficult content, but people hate doing it because the rewards are not there. This leads me to believe people simply see difficult content as a vehicle for better loot and not for the challenge. So why bother making difficult content when people have different definitions of the content, people won’t do them and it waste resources catering to a small percentage.

Ayrilana.1396:

BeVa.4895:

Beldin.5498:

BeVa.4895:

I think the problem with difficult content is that difficulty is subjective.
What even is difficult?
Something that takes a long time to complete?
Something that takes “skill”? Then again what is considered “skill”?
Something that takes teamwork?
Something that makes use of unusual tactics? Then what are those supposed to be?

The thing is, there is no one that can give an answer that will please EVERYONE.

Thats the problem .. and in the end the answer in MMOs is mostly something that
only makes the game more annoying.

- more hitpoints
- more damage
- more one-hit kills
- more CC

Yeah because no one knows what difficult content is supposed to be… not even the players.

Game designers often ask the question:
“Why is “more x” a problem and how can we solve it?"

And the moment they try something new, they get criticized for making it “gimmicky”. Because people want a challenge, but do not want to do the same thing AND do not want to do something different.

I was tempted to make a post/thread asking what people thought difficulty was. I see it going two ways which is increased stats for enemies or increased usage of mechanics. The former would be criticized as artificial difficulty while the latter would be criticized as gimmicky. Sometimes I’ve seen the same people criticizing both leading me to believe they have absolutely no idea what they want.

I very much disagree.

The difference between a gimmick and a mechanic is whether it’s part of the core game play. Glint’s lair, the boss you kill by hitting the things that make you fragile then transfering it to the other things and breaking them… that’s a gimmick. The first boss where you simply have attacks that you try to dodge while you kill him, that’s normal mechanics.

That said, gimmicks aren’t always bad, it’s just you’re taking a stretch on whether people will like it or not. Only an idiot would play a game where they dislike the core mechanics. It’s when they diverge from that base that you are taking a chance. Aetherpath for example, it’s a lot of puzzle stuff, and not much of the strait forward fighting that most of the other dungeons are. It’s diverging from the norm. I’m sure many absolutely LOVE it. Personally I’m not a big fan, just didn’t hit me as something I enjoy. Whether you like it or not though it’s gimmicky because it is so different.

I only take issue with using Aetherpath as an example of difficulty and people saying “see no one likes it” well, it’s not that it’s difficult that people don’t enjoy it, it’s that it’s so different.

To get to your example, if they made a hard mode Arah where Lupi’s attacks came out 50% faster, no one would call that gimmicky, they’s simply call it harder. If they added a new mechanic where crystals spawned and you had to take them and hit Lupi with them, well then we’d be looking at something gimmicky.

To end, I’ll say that some of my favorite encounters in any game were in EQ, 2 raids that were the most gimmicky raids I’ve ever taken part in… but I freakin loved them. Others I know… HATED them. You’re taking a chance when you go away from core mechanics creating the content and instead try and use some more interesting out of the box ideas, some will love it, some will hate it.

Thaddeus.4891:

GW2 already have a wide range of difficulty for different players. They will never make a content that please everyone. A tier system like Dry Top/Lion Arch and some ppl complain that they can’t reach the higher tier for the good reward because they never end up on a good map. A coordinated event that need individual skill and ppl will complain that they can’t do the event because of some of the player that are bad, like with the marionnette. Give a hard content like the Triple Wurm and ppl will complain that they can’t do it unless they join a specific guild. Give a easy content and ppl will complain its not hard enough.

I think the new event is alright. Not too hard that most map won’t fail it in a week, but not too easy as it became a afk fight like some World Boss. Not the best fight for me, but overall I think It can be appreciate by most ppl.

People who complain about an event being too difficult for them and that they need to try too hard or coordinate are the worst type of people though. They arn’t comparable to people who ask for hardcore content. This is part of a bigger problem in MMO’s from what ive seen. Its self-entitled gamers.

Content like the Jungle Wurm was specifically made for hardcore groups. That means that yes you have to coordinate, not just smash your head on the keyboard with a bunch of random people.

Again a tier system is perfect for this because it caters to everyone. No matter how bad you do, you still succeed. Its just that you have to be better and more organized to succeed at higher tiers.

We need to stop giving in to people who feel like they deserve everything and who don’t want to put any effort in for a reward.

SkylightMoon.1980:

People who complain about an event being too difficult for them and that they need to try too hard or coordinate are the worst type of people though. They arn’t comparable to people who ask for hardcore content. This is part of a bigger problem in MMO’s from what ive seen. Its self-entitled gamers.

By whose standards? Keep in mind that this is a game. You’re not contributing anything to society by excelling at it. Where do you draw the difficulty line? If you want harder games, there are plenty of them out there. ArenaNet has always targetted the more casual player. This isn’t a game design decision; it’s a business decision. Don’t you see the irony in calling other players self-entitled in a post where you’re effectively demanding that ArenaNet cater specifically to you?

SkylightMoon.1980:

Content like the Jungle Wurm was specifically made for hardcore groups. That means that yes you have to coordinate, not just smash your head on the keyboard with a bunch of random people.

Exactly. And how many players do that content regularly? I know of only one guild on my server that does it a couple of times a week. That’s pretty much my only option for ever seeing that content. Is that a good return on investment for ArenaNet?

SkylightMoon.1980:

We need to stop giving in to people who feel like they deserve everything and who don’t want to put any effort in for a reward.

You’re not putting in any effort that merits meaningful rewards; you’re screwing around in a game. If you want reward for effort then get a job where your contributions to society are rewarded meaningfully. Quit calling others self-entitled for not wanting their game to feel like a chore.

@Bernie

If you think a good player playing the game and investing thousands of hours into improving his ability to play it equals “screwing around in a game” you’re dead wrong.

People do put effort in. People do it 50 times and fail before they do it right. People read, theorycraft and learn from their mistakes.

Perhaps you haven’t come across these facts since you seem rather uninformed to their existence.

The game doesn’t have to feel like a chore but good plays and good strategy and good theorycrafting should be rewarded.

There’s no reason the worst of players should be rewarded on par with the best of players.

Harper.4173:

@Bernie

If you think a good player playing the game and investing thousands of hours into improving his ability to play it equals “screwing around in a game” you’re dead wrong.

People do put effort in. People do it 50 times and fail before they do it right. People read, theorycraft and learn from their mistakes.

Perhaps you haven’t come across these facts since you seem rather uninformed to their existence.

The game doesn’t have to feel like a chore but good plays and good strategy and good theorycrafting should be rewarded.

There’s no reason the worst of players should be rewarded on par with the best of players.

The problem isn’t just that playing well isn’t rewarded. It’s worse than that. The better you get the more dull the game gets as the game hasn’t kept up with a growing skill level that many have obtained. That’s the big issue with not having increased difficulty. Your players that have learned to play well are being punished.

Old games use to increase in difficulty as you beat levels and content. The new status quo for MMOs is to stagnate as they don’t want to alienate anyone, in this very reserved approach they’ve shut off anyone who plays the game for a challenge.

Jerus.4350:

Harper.4173:

@Bernie

If you think a good player playing the game and investing thousands of hours into improving his ability to play it equals “screwing around in a game” you’re dead wrong.

People do put effort in. People do it 50 times and fail before they do it right. People read, theorycraft and learn from their mistakes.

Perhaps you haven’t come across these facts since you seem rather uninformed to their existence.

The game doesn’t have to feel like a chore but good plays and good strategy and good theorycrafting should be rewarded.

There’s no reason the worst of players should be rewarded on par with the best of players.

The problem isn’t just that playing well isn’t rewarded. It’s worse than that. The better you get the more dull the game gets as the game hasn’t kept up with a growing skill level that many have obtained. That’s the big issue with not having increased difficulty. Your players that have learned to play well are being punished.

Old games use to increase in difficulty as you beat levels and content. The new status quo for MMOs is to stagnate as they don’t want to alienate anyone, in this very reserved approach they’ve shut off anyone who plays the game for a challenge.

Let’s be honest here, MMORPG are not games you play the challenge. There are better ways to get a challenge and that is in single player games since they come with a difficulty slider.

Crying about challenge is like going to a Chuck E cheese and complaining that the games are for kids and they should have games that cater to adults since adults like games as well. Chuck E cheese could include more adult (I don’t mean sexual games, just games like COD, rated T-M) games or the adults could realize they are best served going somewhere that allows them to play adult games.

silvermember.8941:

Jerus.4350:

Harper.4173:

@Bernie

If you think a good player playing the game and investing thousands of hours into improving his ability to play it equals “screwing around in a game” you’re dead wrong.

People do put effort in. People do it 50 times and fail before they do it right. People read, theorycraft and learn from their mistakes.

Perhaps you haven’t come across these facts since you seem rather uninformed to their existence.

The game doesn’t have to feel like a chore but good plays and good strategy and good theorycrafting should be rewarded.

There’s no reason the worst of players should be rewarded on par with the best of players.

The problem isn’t just that playing well isn’t rewarded. It’s worse than that. The better you get the more dull the game gets as the game hasn’t kept up with a growing skill level that many have obtained. That’s the big issue with not having increased difficulty. Your players that have learned to play well are being punished.

Old games use to increase in difficulty as you beat levels and content. The new status quo for MMOs is to stagnate as they don’t want to alienate anyone, in this very reserved approach they’ve shut off anyone who plays the game for a challenge.

Let’s be honest here, MMORPG are not games you play the challenge. There are better ways to get a challenge and that is in single player games since they come with a difficulty slider.

Crying about challenge is like going to a Chuck E cheese and complaining that the games are for kids and they should have games that cater to adults since adults like games as well. Chuck E cheese could include more adult (I don’t mean sexual games, just games like COD, rated T-M) games or the adults could realize they are best served going somewhere that allows them to play adult games.

And yet every MMO I’ve played has provided difficult content… including GW2, it’s simply whether they continue to do so or not. Arah, Fractal50s, Liadri, nice good challenging content. It’s just nothing new has been added to it in quite some time.

Jerus.4350:

I very much disagree.

snip

To get to your example, if they made a hard mode Arah where Lupi’s attacks came out 50% faster, no one would call that gimmicky, they’s simply call it harder. If they added a new mechanic where crystals spawned and you had to take them and hit Lupi with them, well then we’d be looking at something gimmicky.

I get what you’re saying, you mean that boss paterns can be challenging without having to be gimmicky. I think Anet just put themselves in a predicament by making the content “for everyone” and such making you have to do something in a certain way will never happen (even though people will always find “the best” way).

I think the reason why people keep mentioning the marionette as a good example is because of the paterns you had to learn and know what the best skills were in the situation.

Jerus.4350:

Ayrilana.1396

I was tempted to make a post/thread asking what people thought difficulty was. I see it going two ways which is increased stats for enemies or increased usage of mechanics. The former would be criticized as artificial difficulty while the latter would be criticized as gimmicky. Sometimes I’ve seen the same people criticizing both leading me to believe they have absolutely no idea what they want.

I very much disagree.

The difference between a gimmick and a mechanic is whether it’s part of the core game play. Glint’s lair, the boss you kill by hitting the things that make you fragile then transfering it to the other things and breaking them… that’s a gimmick. The first boss where you simply have attacks that you try to dodge while you kill him, that’s normal mechanics.

That said, gimmicks aren’t always bad, it’s just you’re taking a stretch on whether people will like it or not. Only an idiot would play a game where they dislike the core mechanics. It’s when they diverge from that base that you are taking a chance. Aetherpath for example, it’s a lot of puzzle stuff, and not much of the strait forward fighting that most of the other dungeons are. It’s diverging from the norm. I’m sure many absolutely LOVE it. Personally I’m not a big fan, just didn’t hit me as something I enjoy. Whether you like it or not though it’s gimmicky because it is so different.

I only take issue with using Aetherpath as an example of difficulty and people saying “see no one likes it” well, it’s not that it’s difficult that people don’t enjoy it, it’s that it’s so different.

To get to your example, if they made a hard mode Arah where Lupi’s attacks came out 50% faster, no one would call that gimmicky, they’s simply call it harder. If they added a new mechanic where crystals spawned and you had to take them and hit Lupi with them, well then we’d be looking at something gimmicky.

To end, I’ll say that some of my favorite encounters in any game were in EQ, 2 raids that were the most gimmicky raids I’ve ever taken part in… but I freakin loved them. Others I know… HATED them. You’re taking a chance when you go away from core mechanics creating the content and instead try and use some more interesting out of the box ideas, some will love it, some will hate it.

I consider both gimmicks and core mechanics as mechanics. I see core mechanics just as you describe which are mechanics that you use throughout the majority of a game. I see what people label as gimmicks to be the mechanics specific to a given encounter. This could be the lava in the dredge fractal, ghostbuster mechanic in AC p2, the various mechanics in the Aetherblade path, or Marionette boos mechanics to name a few. What you gave an example of for increased attack speed for lupi I would label as artificial difficulty as you’re increasing a particular stat.

Many people are quick to call any mechanic as gimmicky. I’ve seen people calling a mechanic that requires you to avoid a specific attack by dodging as gimmicky. This is largely to do with how subjective that term can be.

How exactly can Anet increase the difficulty of an encounter with creating artificial difficulty from increasing enemy stats or by creating encounter specific mechanics? So in essence, how can they increase difficulty by using just core mechanics in a way that they do not come off as gimmicky?

If you consider increased attack speed as simply an artificial difficulty, what about a new attack that isn’t a gimmick? Lupi normally kicks with his left leg. He now has a right leg kick that will carry through all 3 phases.

That work for ya?

People who call having to dodge an attack a gimmick are idiots. Many fractals are gimmicky. Personally some I enjoy, some I don’t. New Dredge is gimmicky, but I like it. Cliffside, not such a big fan.

I don’t consider increased attack speed artificial difficulty though. THe difference being that a perfect run is increased in difficulty. Harder hits doesn’t make it harder to perform perfectly, it simply increases the risk if you screw up. Adding more HP doesn’t make it harder, it simply makes it last longer which is usually a pretty boring thing. Increasing attack speed means you have to re-evaluate how you actively defend yourself. You can’t afford to needlessly dodge something that you may have before “just in case”.

Using Lupi as an example, Going into phase 3 from phase 2, I could use my normal response to frenzied blast, and often I will “just in case” knowing I have an option still available for the first phase 3 attack. Now, if I had to be concerned about having to deal with the first, second, and maybe even third phase 3 attack before my “wasted” response was off cooldown, then I may have to look at another way to handle that phase change. I hope that makes sense. Faster attacks means wasted energy/blocks/evades is more likely to make you dead. That’s not artificial, it’s going to require a second look at your strategy.

Harper.4173:

@Bernie

If you think a good player playing the game and investing thousands of hours into improving his ability to play it equals “screwing around in a game” you’re dead wrong.

You’re missing the entire point. I’m not saying that they’re not putting in effort; I’m saying that the effort could have been spent productively. Furthermore, I don’t think the gaming industry is obligated to support or even encourage that approach to gaming.

Harper.4173:

Perhaps you haven’t come across these facts since you seem rather uninformed to their existence.

Or maybe I’m all too well-acquainted with it. I won a Guild Wars 1 PvP template contest on IGN a few months after the Guild Wars 1 launch. Know what I had to show for it? A title on a forum account that was eventually purged when its forums were reorganized. Oh, yeah, and my build got nerfed. Know who cares? Absolutely no one. Did I find better uses for my time going forward? Absolutely. I made over half a million dollars last year (about five times what I typically make, but still) by spending less time theorycrafting and more time building products that benefit others.

Harper.4173:

The game doesn’t have to feel like a chore but good plays and good strategy and good theorycrafting should be rewarded.

And they are rewarded. By smoother runs and more frequent drops. That’s all that should be expected. We don’t need an entirely new level of content that provides exclusive drops to players who would rather treat a game like a job than a hobby. There are plenty of games out there that provide that. This isn’t one of them, and many of us are glad for that.

Harper.4173:

There’s no reason the worst of players should be rewarded on par with the best of players.

And they’re not. They spend hours in fractals that other players tear through in tens of minutes. They mindlessly follow zergs for hours while “hardcore” players knock out organized fights in minutes. They are already inherently penalized. ArenaNet is not obligated to alienate them further to stroke egos.

Some people would call the new attack with his right leg as a gimmick. I say this as people have labeled new attacks as gimmicks in this game and others. Do do agree with you about those who call dodging a gimmick but that just shows you how loosely people use that term. A lot of times people use it towards anything they don’t like. If they like it then it’s a good mechanic, if they don’t then it’s too gimmicky.

I personally don’t see an issue with gimmicks or artificial difficulty when done within reason. If enemy stats are increased enough to just make the fight long and boring without adding anything, I would have a problem with it. If mechanics were added to the point that the encounter became convoluted, I’d have a problem with it. Again, this is all subjective as it would be based on what I felt was good or bad.

Also the game is aimed at a casual player. Casual doesn’t have to mean bad or terrible.

I’d like to think a casual player can still do challenging content and not want everything handed to them.

Jerus.4350:

Harper.4173:

@Bernie

If you think a good player playing the game and investing thousands of hours into improving his ability to play it equals “screwing around in a game” you’re dead wrong.

People do put effort in. People do it 50 times and fail before they do it right. People read, theorycraft and learn from their mistakes.

Perhaps you haven’t come across these facts since you seem rather uninformed to their existence.

The game doesn’t have to feel like a chore but good plays and good strategy and good theorycrafting should be rewarded.

There’s no reason the worst of players should be rewarded on par with the best of players.

The problem isn’t just that playing well isn’t rewarded. It’s worse than that. The better you get the more dull the game gets as the game hasn’t kept up with a growing skill level that many have obtained. That’s the big issue with not having increased difficulty. Your players that have learned to play well are being punished.

Old games use to increase in difficulty as you beat levels and content. The new status quo for MMOs is to stagnate as they don’t want to alienate anyone, in this very reserved approach they’ve shut off anyone who plays the game for a challenge.

The game can’t keep up because of various reasons :

1)The permanent influx of new players means that while old content becomes easy and trivial for veterans there are always players for which the content is hard or just right.
To change content to keep pace with the most dedicated and skilled of players is to quickly create a “skill creep” that would alienate new players quickly.

2)The majority of players are resistant to change – often opting to play sub-optimal setups because of roleplaying reasons or various other notions. You can’t make content harder without excluding them from it.

I certainly don’t feel punished by getting easier rewards at a faster pace – but I would like new content.

No – contrary to your expectations – if Anet were to redesign AC and make it 10 times harder than it is now I would not have more fun playing it because it’s stale content that I’ve done hundreds of times and no matter how challenging it got it would still be old and boring.

The solution is a higher influx of new content – that way by the time the good players have mastered old content ideally there would be new content close to completion or just released for them to work on while the players that aren’t so good are slowly catching up too at their own pace.

For people that have been playing since launch the content may seem to be too easy but face it, the veterans have learned all the ins and out and subtleties of the game. if you introduce too much “difficult” content to satisfy the vets then you will lose the newer players and face it, vets are not going to buy as many gems as the newer players as they already have most of the gem store items.

Bernie.8674:

Harper.4173:

@Bernie

If you think a good player playing the game and investing thousands of hours into improving his ability to play it equals “screwing around in a game” you’re dead wrong.

You’re missing the entire point. I’m not saying that they’re not putting in effort; I’m saying that the effort could have been spent productively. Furthermore, I don’t think the gaming industry is obligated to support or even encourage that approach to gaming.

Harper.4173:

Perhaps you haven’t come across these facts since you seem rather uninformed to their existence.

Or maybe I’m all too well-acquainted with it. I won a Guild Wars 1 PvP template contest on IGN a few months after the Guild Wars 1 launch. Know what I had to show for it? A title on a forum account that was eventually purged when its forums were reorganized. Oh, yeah, and my build got nerfed. Know who cares? Absolutely no one. Did I find better uses for my time going forward? Absolutely. I made over half a million dollars last year (about five times what I typically make, but still) by spending less time theorycrafting and more time building products that benefit others.

Harper.4173:

The game doesn’t have to feel like a chore but good plays and good strategy and good theorycrafting should be rewarded.

And they are rewarded. By smoother runs and more frequent drops. That’s all that should be expected. We don’t need an entirely new level of content that provides exclusive drops to players who would rather treat a game like a job than a hobby. There are plenty of games out there that provide that. This isn’t one of them, and many of us are glad for that.

Harper.4173:

There’s no reason the worst of players should be rewarded on par with the best of players.

And they’re not. They spend hours in fractals that other players tear through in tens of minutes. They mindlessly follow zergs for hours while “hardcore” players knock out organized fights in minutes. They are already inherently penalized. ArenaNet is not obligated to alienate them further to stroke egos.

First of all the fact that you decided to include how much money you presumably made last year in this topic points out that you’re out of loop entirely.
Nobody cares how much money you made. Nobody cares who you are outside of the game and honestly I don’t care why they should.

People who theorycraft do it because they enjoy the game. You’re trying to make it sound as if they could be better off doing something else or putting less effort into the game. Maybe taking it less serious and that’s the whole problem.

See – time spent doing something you enjoy and care about is never wasted. If these people feel this is what they want to do with their lives then this is absolutely the right thing for them.

The " This isn’t one of those games – and we’re glad for it" is false and wrong.

It’s false because GW2 has a lot of hardcore content with unique rewards tied into that content already. And it hasn’t killed the game. And it hasn’t set the world on fire.

We’re not asking for this to be the main thing of GW2 but rather to have more of it in a game that has more of everything – keeping the current proportions if you will.

It’s also wrong because the “this isn’t that kind of game” could be said as a counter to any change made to the game be it for better or for worse. And frankly as long as people try to turn it into the new trinity and add mounts and whatnot I honestly don’t find asking for harder content with unique rewards such a crime.
There are other people out there whose agendas are all about reworking the game – we just want more content.

I would also like to know how following a zerg and pressing 1 for rewards is in any way being penalized. It’s so easy you can do it with no gear on while watching TV.

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people would call the new attack with his right leg as a gimmick. I say this as people have labeled new attacks as gimmicks in this game and others. Do do agree with you about those who call dodging a gimmick but that just shows you how loosely people use that term. A lot of times people use it towards anything they don’t like. If they like it then it’s a good mechanic, if they don’t then it’s too gimmicky.

I personally don’t see an issue with gimmicks or artificial difficulty when done within reason. If enemy stats are increased enough to just make the fight long and boring without adding anything, I would have a problem with it. If mechanics were added to the point that the encounter became convoluted, I’d have a problem with it. Again, this is all subjective as it would be based on what I felt was good or bad.

I agree with you here. And, like I said earlier, when you go into gimmicks you’re making it even more subjective as usually people enjoy the core mechanics, you’re taking a chance by diverging from them.

My problem and why I had to chime in was when I saw the same thing I’ve seen dozens of times.
“No one wants actual difficult content, look at aetherpath no one uses it, they just call it gimmicky as an excuse to not do it”

NO, we call it gimmicky because it’s gimmicky, and in a way that a lot of people don’t enjoy. There are difficult parts of it, but that isn’t going to make me want to go through all that stuff that I really don’t enjoy just for one good fight.

Harper.4173:

First of all the fact that you decided to include how much money you presumably made last year in this topic points out that you’re out of loop entirely.
Nobody cares how much money you made. Nobody cares who you are outside of the game and honestly I don’t care why they should.

The point that you missed here is that the work I performed in the real world was rewarded because it benefitted others. The time you spend playing the game provides you (and only you) with entertainment. That’s why expecting for it to be as rewarding is unrealistic.

Harper.4173:

People who theorycraft do it because they enjoy the game. You’re trying to make it sound as if they could be better off doing something else or putting less effort into the game. Maybe taking it less serious and that’s the whole problem.

That’s great. By all means enjoy the game. That is reward in and of itself. Theorycrafters have already been inherently rewarded. They don’t need exclusive in-game content as a congratulatory gesture for enjoying the game. The enjoyment is all the reward they need. I’m saying that they should put their efforts into perspective. Working hard at entertaining oneself does not yield rewards the way that working hard at entertaining other does. Calling others self-entitled for expecting the same in-game rewards despite not working as hard at entertaining themselves is the epitome of irony.

Harper.4173:

See – time spent doing something you enjoy and care about is never wasted. If these people feel this is what they want to do with their lives then this is absolutely the right thing for them.

I don’t begrudge others their entertainment. It is, however, unrealistic for them to expect a special reward for entertaining themselves more strenuously than everyone else.

Harper.4173:

It’s false because GW2 has a lot of hardcore content with unique rewards tied into that content already. And it hasn’t killed the game. And it hasn’t set the world on fire.

Call me ignorant, but I’m not aware of any “hardcore” content in this game. I have yet to see anything in Guild Wars 2 that is anywhere near the level of difficulty as a WoW raid. Just take a look at any of these raid guides in Icy Veins if you don’t believe me. Pay particular attention to the Mythic versions.

Harper.4173:

We’re not asking for this to be the main thing of GW2 but rather to have more of it in a game that has more of everything – keeping the current proportions if you will.

The title of this thread, “Why can’t we have difficult content?” implies that the current content is not difficult. I don’t think anyone begrudges anyone else more end game content, but I don’t think we need raid-level content in this game either.

Harper.4173:

I would also like to know how following a zerg and pressing 1 for rewards is in any way being penalized. It’s so easy you can do it with no gear on while watching TV.

It’s boring and monotonous. Playing a fun game is a reward in and of itself.

The point that you missed here is that the work I performed in the real world was rewarded because it benefitted others. The time you spend playing the game provides you (and only you) with entertainment. That’s why expecting for it to be as rewarding is unrealistic.

Ultimately people play games to obtain various feelings and states. It’s a Skinner Box – press keys and obtain pleasurable neurotransmitters(NTs).
When I say I want the game to be rewarding I mean I want to get as much stuff that gets those NTs firing as possible.

That’s the reward. Item x translated into NTs that make you feel good about yourself, your accomplishment or whatever else there is.

Work that benefits others may or may not pay off. Maybe it will but not enough.
The work you do to benefit yourself is safer – that’s why people play video games to begin with.
It’s an easy and pretty reliable source of positive NT boosts with the user deciding most of the input parameters and with much more of the process being dependent on the user and not other individuals.

Also how exactly did you compare the "as rewarding " thing? How do you compare rewards in a game with your earned sum? Do they stack up somehow? You’re making no sense.

And the general tone of “doing things for others is more beneficial – look I did it and made a lot of money” is also purely your experience.
I’m pretty sure there are people out there who’ve been doing everything for themselves and their own sake and made more money.

Working hard at entertaining oneself does not yield rewards the way that working hard at entertaining other does.

But this point is mute since in all video games you play primarily for your own benefit.

Look at how games are set-up – accounts that are personal, characters that are personal.

Calling others self-entitled for expecting the same in-game rewards despite not working as hard at entertaining themselves is the epitome of irony.

Maybe I’m slow and don’t understand your point but if they work less at entertaining themselves why should be more entertained than someone who worked harder at it?

The title of this thread, “Why can’t we have difficult content?” implies that the current content is not difficult. I don’t think anyone begrudges anyone else more end game content, but I don’t think we need raid-level content in this game either.

This ties into what you consider difficult content – if you look at WoW then no – I wouldn’t necessarily want that type of content either but the game has difficult content of other types.

Look at the Liadri fight – that was a good example. Why not have more of that?

Difficult doesn’t have to mean a WoW raid – it could have a smaller scale with more focus on individuals.

The problem with MMORPG difficulty is scripted encounters. If the encounters used some “proper” AI then they could be difficult enough, but using good AI and not having scripted encounters would cause a different kind of problem. In MMORPGs players “expect” to be able to do most content, even the hardest Raid of the hardest MMORPG will eventually become far easier once players identify the mechanics and learn the best party compositions etc

SkylightMoon.1980:

This is part of a bigger problem in MMO’s from what ive seen. Its self-entitled gamers.

This has to be the biggest crock of kitten ever written on the forums. Self entitlement? It’s a game, genius. If you really want to feel any right to be entitled about something, get a biochemistry degree and use cannabinoids like THC and CBD + temozolomide and start developing the cure for cancer.

Seriously, it’s a game. Entitlement is neither earned or expected.

kittening buzzwords.

If hard content is put in open world it will be difficult to complete as you are at the mercy of completely random people to pull their weight. People get kittened at other people who they perceive as not pulling their weight. Or people who just want to enjoy that map without participating in the boss event.

If it’s hard content in small groups that you can organize, say hello to meta gaming and not every profession or build can clear it. People would be forced into specific builds/comps to clear the content. If you can do the content with any build on any profession you enjoy to play it can’t be to difficult, there are pretty big swings in performance.
Builds that are perceived as weaker will be shunned, and just when I liked having an MMO that doesn’t do that (atleast not nearly as much).

And this one applies to difficult content regardless. Once the top few % have cleared it, maybe a few times, they don’t bother anymore to run it. Everyone not in this elite group can’t clear it or can’t be bothered.
As a result a lot of time and effort spend developing content that only pleases a very small portion of the player base, while it frustrates or otherwise does nothing for the majority of the players. That’s pretty inefficient.