Guild Wars 2

HiddenNick.7206:

Trinity mechanic is only interesting from healers perspective (and tanks in far smaller degree). Others just stand in one spot and hit all their skills as fast as they can… From their perspective it is far less interesting then Gw2 system because they can’t die.

I disagree about that statement. Try the hardest bosses in Tera to see. In a lot of those fights (some of those were actually soloed by a non healing class) the healer role is more to catch up mistakes the rest of the team does because they can actually avoid all damage if they are careful and the tank does it’s work. And there are a LOT of damage coming their way to avoid. The tank himself can carefully mitigate most damage to the point is self healing is enough to sustain the whole fight.

And since the poor healers in a good team would be bored, they are given in those fights the role of using the environment items required to win the fight in the first place. Since they cannot DPS and aren’t exactly needed to heal, very good teams can spare them running all other the place. Weaker teams will have a DPS do that and so reduce their efficiency.

You can notice something in that. There is a trinity in Tera, but in some fights, one of the components isn’t actually “required” so it’s more of a matter of having one tank and the rest DPS. I think GW2 really needs some nothing of tanking to shine in PvE. At the core of it, tanking role isn’t here to absorb all damage the boss does so that the DPS can stop thinking and DPS more. Tanking for me is a role that when carefully done makes the boss more predictable thus avoiding the chaotic mess that happens when aggro goes all wonky.

The fact that most trinity games work like that : tanker keeps aggro, healer heals tank, DPS stand around picking their noses while their macro does the work isn’t desirable for GW2. But the current system of : there’s that champion icebrood wolf. We attack him, I position myself in it’s back to avoid his AoE swiping melee attack while some guy in from is kiting him or plain mitigating and overhealing the damage. Then, suddenly I get aggro and he just decides to launchs his leap attack. Leap attack in melee range = KD + 2×7k damage instantly with no tells at all. Even if you tell me to build ultra defensive to survive that attack, the damage received would still be that much to cause lost time due to having to run away and heal all that damage and in many fights the situation wouldn’t happen either.

This is one of the main problems with GW2 PvE. Either you use tactics that completely shutdown the mobs or their damage or you go heavy kitting or it’s a chaotic mess of people resed all other the place. We need more fights like the better Tera boss fights with always visible tells, importance of placement of all players and of reading mob behavior and harsh timed kill speed to prevent boring full on defensive gearing for all players.

I truly believe ANet hasn’t really found a sweetspot for their bosses, and the new system of no trinity. Most of the times the interesting aspects of bosses in other games is the whole strategy between the different classes.

In general from what I’ve seen in other MMO’s:

• DPS has to be here, and avoid these things while also mowing down these other points.
• The tank has to pull the boss to this point, avoid these things, while the off tank has to keep this busy yet also keep it in this position for the dps.
• The healer has to keep a special eye on these classes, and provide buffs at this time or there will be a party wipe.

So there were clear instructions on how to challenge each subcategory of gamer (dps, tank, healer). While with GW2 honestly the only strategy is, don’t stand there, oh and be sure to stay alive! Really the only way to make a boss fight interesting without adding necessity to any one class is to either add a boss fight gimmick (you have to pick up this special weapon to fight the boss), or a very large health pool to make the fight longer.

ANet just needs some practice with their new system. I’m sure in a year or two there will be far more diverse, and balanced bosses than they have now.

TheUndefined.1720:

I truly believe ANet hasn’t really found a sweetspot for their bosses, and the new system of no trinity. Most of the times the interesting aspects of bosses in other games is the whole strategy between the different classes.

But that’s the purpose of an MMO. Strategy and synergy between classes, and the combat system Anet has designed simply doesn’t have any. It’s not a matter of ‘finding a sweet spot.’

But put too much emphasis on the “synergy between classes” and you end up with “lf class A, B, C and D for dungeon run, other classes do not bother to apply”

Zeldain.5710:

TheUndefined.1720:

I truly believe ANet hasn’t really found a sweetspot for their bosses, and the new system of no trinity. Most of the times the interesting aspects of bosses in other games is the whole strategy between the different classes.

But that’s the purpose of an MMO. Strategy and synergy between classes, and the combat system Anet has designed simply doesn’t have any. It’s not a matter of ‘finding a sweet spot.’

In the category of well developed (not the FTP trash MMO’s out there) MMO’s please list to me another MMO that has followed GW2’s design to a T.

I’m talking about same mechanics, same classes, same everything. Please don’t list anything if you can’t use the word ‘exactly,’ and instead use ‘like’ and ‘similar’ in your response.

None right? Well of course there aren’t any MMO’s out there exactly GW2, because the only game that is exactly GW2 is GW2.

So what do you have to compare to this unique game to list it as a failure in regards to, ‘without this system, you can’t have this’? Nothing. We just don’t know if this system is a complete mess of a failure, or if the potential will outride this dry period. This system may, in time, demonstrate an amazing array of strategy in combat.

GW2 is very bland and boring to me. Yet, I don’t kid myself in thinking this is as good as it gets. Sure, we’re not going to see the same boss fights we saw in other games, because GW2 has a completely different system. Though subjective, I agree the trinity boss fights are far more fun than GW2’s. I love having a purpose in my party aside from contributing damage, so naturally I enjoy utility roles in the trinity system. Yet I’m fully aware other MMO’s have had decades to tweak the Tank / DPS / Healer system.

GW2 has had since August to tweak their own class system.

I’m positive this game will find its ‘sweetspot’ in a year or two. That’s exactly what happened with GW1, I have little doubt the same will happen with GW2.

TheUndefined.1720:

In the category of well developed (not the FTP trash MMO’s out there) MMO’s please list to me another MMO that has followed GW2’s design to a T.

I’m talking about same mechanics, same classes, same everything. Please don’t list anything if you can’t use the word ‘exactly,’ and instead use ‘like’ and ‘similar’ in your response.

None right? Well of course there aren’t any MMO’s out there exactly like GW2, because the only game that is exactly like GW2 is GW2.

There aren’t copies of any game out there if you’re going to use such strict guidance. They’re all original.

TheUndefined.1720:

So what do you have to compare to this unique game to list it as a failure in regards to, ‘without this system, you can’t have this’? Nothing.

GW2 is very bland and boring to me. Yet, I don’t kid myself in thinking this is as good as it gets. Sure, we’re not going to see the same boss fights we saw in other games, because GW2 has a completely different system. Though subjective, I agree the trinity boss fights are far more fun than GW2’s. I love having a purpose in my party aside from contributing damage, so naturally I enjoy utility roles in the trinity system. Yet I’m fully aware other MMO’s have had decades to tweak the Tank / DPS / Healer system.

GW2 has had since August to tweak their own class system.

I’m positive this game will find its ‘sweetspot’ in a year or two. That’s exactly what happened with GW1, I have little doubt the same will happen with GW2.

It’s ArenaNet’s design. There were prototypes years before the game came out that were being play-tested. THAT is when they find out if something is going to work or not… not something as major as combat design after launch. I present to you SWG: Combat Update as one case sample.

ArenaNet came to the table with this “manifesto” and one of the first things they say in it is “if you hate MMOs, you’ll really want to try GW2”. This, in my opinion, is precisely the way they designed combat the way it is.

It’s designed so that you don’t need to play with anyone else, only along side them. No coordination or communication is necessary, and worse there are no class synergies inherent to facilitate those things.

TheUndefined.1720:

We just don’t know if this system is a complete mess of a failure, or if the potential will outride this dry period. This system may, in time, demonstrate an amazing array of strategy in combat.

We do know.

There is nothing implicit in the combat design that they will change it to make more strategy and synergy required. The tools and the foundation are not there for it.

The combat is what it is by design, and it simply doesn’t work for fans who love MMOs and the possibilities that cooperative team play hold.

@Zeldain,

In the end I just think you’re making too many broad assumptions. ‘For fans who love mmo’s and the possibilities that cooperative team play hold,’ I know just as many veteran MMO players that love this game to discontent players.

I think you’re missing the points where I agree the combat isn’t fun.

I did misspeak when discussing comparisons. You’re right. I’m being too strict. The point I was trying to make was in comparison of MMO systems. Every system of the trinity is exactly the same with every MMO. There are tanks that hold aggro, there are Healers that keep players health pools high, there are dps that fight to bring HP down on the target. These are tried, and tested to the point we can bring up numerous examples and draw conclusions of effective, and very ineffective.

Simply alpha / beta testing does not offer any form of comparison to GW2’s system. This game needs time, just like any new idea. I’m usually not the sort to point towards the exit in any game, but if there ever was a game I’d suggest a break on it would have to be GW2. I’m honestly completely ignorant of any proto testing or what have you. If there were builds of GW2 massively tested to the open public, I’d love to be educated how it went.

Look at it this way, if I’m wrong, you didn’t waste anymore time on this game. If I’m right, you have a fun game to come back to at some point.

Guys remembers dungeons are not only about bosses as well, come on, Arah story mode is kittening epic, the whole dungeon, and the final boss as well.

And the coment above is right, WoW and other copycat games bosses were ‘interesting’ only for healers and tanks, dps was exactly and even worse than here, dps from the back, ‘dodge’, reposition, avoid aoe.

Malfunctioning Golem, anyone?

I think people just always want more . I found my first run in the Ascalonian Catacombs very interesting in that you really need to think about what you’re doing to get through. It didn’t look to me you could get through that without player skill. ( I was being led by experienced players)

Granted, I could barely see the bosses or what they were doing because of the amount of stuff being thrown at them , and I often didn’t see what hit me. But the low penalty for dying makes all of this fun and inviting rather than , frustrating.

I really like the low penalty for dying – I guess you also get less rewards from a group fight if you die, for less contribution.

I don’t want a game like Dark Souls where you really have to read a strategy guide if you want to beat the game in a reasonable timeframe (this lifetime)

stof.9341:

But put too much emphasis on the “synergy between classes” and you end up with “lf class A, B, C and D for dungeon run, other classes do not bother to apply”

Already happening, as it seems healing shout warriors and altruistic guardians are virtually self sufficient. Stack 5 of either so that they are within PBAOE range of each other and the greens start flying.

Oh boy I can barely read most people’s posts with all the l33t mmo speak.

Interesting for healers? You mean clicking buttons in Healbot overlay?
Interesting for tanks? You mean pushing macroses and kiting bosses the same way as we do it in GW2.

Really, after playing GW2 I’d never return to the stale and old trinity-like boredom.

Boss fights could use some creative design though. Can’t argue that.

stof.9341:

I disagree about that statement. Try the hardest bosses in Tera to see. In a lot of those fights (some of those were actually soloed by a non healing class) the healer role is more to catch up mistakes the rest of the team does because they can actually avoid all damage if they are careful and the tank does it’s work. And there are a LOT of damage coming their way to avoid. The tank himself can carefully mitigate most damage to the point is self healing is enough to sustain the whole fight.

So first of all I was talking GENERALLY and you are talking about some specific exceptions. Your example does not prove me wrong.

stof.9341:

You can notice something in that. There is a trinity in Tera, but in some fights, one of the components isn’t actually “required” so it’s more of a matter of having one tank and the rest DPS. I think GW2 really needs some nothing of tanking to shine in PvE. At the core of it, tanking role isn’t here to absorb all damage the boss does so that the DPS can stop thinking and DPS more. Tanking for me is a role that when carefully done makes the boss more predictable thus avoiding the chaotic mess that happens when aggro goes all wonky.

And here your talking about how Tera is not as “Trinitish” as it appears. Why?

There is also CC and healing in Gw2. But it’s just not obligatory. While I play my guardian I always keep try to aggro monsters. When I lose it is more probable for people to die. So I’m kind of tank. But the way I am a tank in Gw2 it does not mean that other people are safe.

stof.9341:

The fact that most trinity games work like that : tanker keeps aggro, healer heals tank, DPS stand around picking their noses while their macro does the work isn’t desirable for GW2.

So actually you are agreeing with me

stof.9341:

But the current system of : there’s that champion icebrood wolf. We attack him, I position myself in it’s back to avoid his AoE swiping melee attack while some guy in from is kiting him or plain mitigating and overhealing the damage. Then, suddenly I get aggro and he just decides to launchs his leap attack. Leap attack in melee range = KD + 2×7k damage instantly with no tells at all. Even if you tell me to build ultra defensive to survive that attack, the damage received would still be that much to cause lost time due to having to run away and heal all that damage and in many fights the situation wouldn’t happen either.

In my opinion if you die this way it’s YOUR fault. Dodge mechanic is for this kind of situations. And I don’t really think that something like “suddenly” in any of boss encounters.

stof.9341:

This is one of the main problems with GW2 PvE. Either you use tactics that completely shutdown the mobs or their damage or you go heavy kitting or it’s a chaotic mess of people resed all other the place.

What’s wrong with that? Do it right and your ok. Do i wrong and try to survive… It looks fine for me.

stof.9341:

We need more fights like the better Tera boss fights with always visible tells, importance of placement of all players and of reading mob behavior and harsh timed kill speed to prevent boring full on defensive gearing for all players.

I do agree with that.

TheUndefined.1720:

@Zeldain,

In the end I just think you’re making too many broad assumptions. ‘For fans who love mmo’s and the possibilities that cooperative team play hold,’ I know just as many veteran MMO players that love this game to discontent players.

There are players who like anything, that’s not what I’m arguing. Simply stated, GW2 combat leaves the core unique selling propisition of the MMO genre on the floor to rot. There is zero effort at making team playt fun and interesting because they’re too focused on making sure any random player can play any group content without talking or working with another soul.

TheUndefined.1720:

I think you’re missing the points where I agree the combat isn’t fun.

I did misspeak when discussing comparisons. You’re right. I’m being too strict. The point I was trying to make was in comparison of MMO systems. Every system of the trinity is exactly the same with every MMO. There are tanks that hold aggro, there are Healers that keep players health pools high, there are dps that fight to bring HP down on the target. These are tried, and tested to the point we can bring up numerous examples and draw conclusions of effective, and very ineffective.

On this we agree, the GW2 combat system is very uninteresting. There are basically 8 DPS classes that are very generic in and of themselves. But based on what we discussed above, and believing in ArenaNet’s goals, I don’t think they intend to change anything about combat… so therefore we’re left with what we have. I don’t think it’s a stepping stone at all.

TheUndefined.1720:

Look at it this way, if I’m wrong, you didn’t waste anymore time on this game. If I’m right, you have a fun game to come back to at some point.

There are too many core, unconditional problems with the design. They’d have to whole-sale change the game for me to come back and play. It’s a shame, because I think it’s one of the most amazing MMO worlds, aesthetically and lore-wise, that has ever been created. (The story telling is abhorrent of course but that’s another thread.)

HiddenNick.7206:

In my opinion if you die this way it’s YOUR fault. Dodge mechanic is for this kind of situations. And I don’t really think that something like “suddenly” in any of boss encounters.

I said there’s no tell warning about this attack. A lot of attacks in this game have a tell that is proportional in duration with the travel time between the mob and you. How could I dodge this when the damage happens instantly with no visual cue? At least I can avoid the first leap because I know it’s the very first thing they do.

And yet, it’s not punishing because you can just get healed on the spot by anybody anyway!

HiddenNick.7206:

What’s wrong with that? Do it right and your ok. Do i wrong and try to survive… It looks fine for me.

Heavy shutdown tactics don’t need you to think during the fight : you just apply rotation and the mobs are dead before they can act. Mostly this is for trash in dungeons so it’s not that bad but not all classes can help in such fashion so it’s a source of unbalance. And full kitting fights are kind of uninteresting. And the chaotic mess isn’t fun at all to play and the level 0 of group play skill.

stof.9341:

I said there’s no tell warning about this attack. A lot of attacks in this game have a tell that is proportional in duration with the travel time between the mob and you. How could I dodge this when the damage happens instantly with no visual cue?

I just try to talk generally. I know there may be some minor issues with the game… I don’t care about discussing them.

stof.9341:

Heavy shutdown tactics don’t need you to think during the fight : you just apply rotation and the mobs are dead before they can act. Mostly this is for trash in dungeons so it’s not that bad but not all classes can help in such fashion so it’s a source of unbalance. And full kitting fights are kind of uninteresting. And the chaotic mess isn’t fun at all to play and the level 0 of group play skill.

As you said… Bad teams do it safe and slower.

Also… Have you played all arah paths?

Zeldain.5710:

There are basically 8 DPS classes that are very generic in and of themselves.

I can’t disagree with that any more then I do!

There are rather 8 hybrid DPS/Healer/Tanks in Gw2. And what’s so generic about that?!

Vasham.2408:

HiddenNick.7206:

Vasham.2408:

HiddenNick.7206:

FourthVariety.5463:

Interesting game mechanics need to be programmed on a per boss basis. High HP are just one value to edit.

Part of it is the lack of trinity. If you have a trinity system, it can be rubber stamped onto every encounter and no matter how boring it is, the encounter retains the trinity mechanics of players being cross-dependent. GW2 does not have this option. While the game has some bosses who have interesting game mechanics, there are far too many to expect a custom programmer’s job be done on every single one of them.

Trinity mechanic is only interesting from healers perspective (and tanks in far smaller degree). Others just stand in one spot and hit all their skills as fast as they can… From their perspective it is far less interesting then Gw2 system because they can’t die.

Have you ever actually played a real MMO?

What do you mean by “real MMO”?

One with combat that doesn’t consist of mindlessly blowing cooldowns, or one with boss encounters that aren’t just trash mobs with ridiculous health pools, or one with real PVE progression that’s an actual challenge.

You know, one not like Guild Wars 2.

Hmm… So WoW also isn’t real MMO because I’m most certainly playing that game this way.

Vasham.2408:

One with combat that doesn’t consist of mindlessly blowing cooldowns, or one with boss encounters that aren’t just trash mobs with ridiculous health pools, or one with real PVE progression that’s an actual challenge.

You know, one not like Guild Wars 2.

I agree with this 100%. I literally hate trying to play this game in pve because its so faceroll easy. The only hard thing about this game is that it takes 2 mintues to kill anything that isn’t a boss. Even then it isn’t hard, just annoying as hell. Hopefully their PVE Content changes in January/Feb/March will change it so it is both more fun and challenging and maybe even give us gear progression other than 5 fractal dungeons for ascended gear.

HiddenNick.7206:

Hmm… So WoW also isn’t real MMO because I’m most certainly playing that game this way.

You probably don’t play WoW to the extend of end-game raiding. Most encounters have a good deal of mechanics you need to pay attention for rather than “Oh look red circle on ground, I should dodge roll”.

HiddenNick.7206:

Zeldain.5710:

There are basically 8 DPS classes that are very generic in and of themselves.

I can’t disagree with that any more then I do!

There are rather 8 hybrid DPS/Healer/Tanks in Gw2. And what’s so generic about that?!

“Everything the same” is the very definition of generic.

ShinraGuardian.8053:

You probably don’t play WoW to the extend of end-game raiding.

99.999% of WoW encounters have mindless cooldown mechanic. Raids are just a tiny part of all game encounters. And still… They aren’t so complicated as you would like them to be. Also there are available only for very limited part of population.

Zeldain.5710:

HiddenNick.7206:

Zeldain.5710:

There are basically 8 DPS classes that are very generic in and of themselves.

I can’t disagree with that any more then I do!

There are rather 8 hybrid DPS/Healer/Tanks in Gw2. And what’s so generic about that?!

“Everything the same” is the very definition of generic.

In what way? I don’t get you…

stof.9341:

But put too much emphasis on the “synergy between classes” and you end up with “lf class A, B, C and D for dungeon run, other classes do not bother to apply”

then they just dont make any one class better than the other. make all of them bring their own unique thing to the table and not a blatant x y and z are the best ever and the others are all useless.

HiddenNick.7206:

Zeldain.5710:

“Everything the same” is the very definition of generic.

In what way? I don’t get you…

The definition of generic according to Webster:

a : relating to or characteristic of a whole group or class
b : being or having a nonproprietary name
c : having no particularly distinctive quality or application

Especially letter C represents the class structure and combat design in Guild Wars 2.

Zeldain.5710:

HiddenNick.7206:

Zeldain.5710:

“Everything the same” is the very definition of generic.

In what way? I don’t get you…

The definition of generic according to Webster:

a : relating to or characteristic of a whole group or class
b : being or having a nonproprietary name
c : having no particularly distinctive quality or application

Especially letter C represents the class structure and combat design in Guild Wars 2.

I totally agree.
GW1 had very distinct variations between the gameplay across the 10 professions. GW2 is more like…. most ranged is the same, most melee is the same.

Zeldain.5710:

c : having no particularly distinctive quality or application

Especially letter C represents the class structure and combat design in Guild Wars 2.

Can you be MORE specific?! Like give me an example of game where you have a good variety of classes and why do you think that all classes in Gw2 are the same?! I really have no idea why are you saying that. You are trying to be a wise guy. And that’s not a discussion in any way.

Kurakura.7281:

I totally agree.
GW1 had very distinct variations between the gameplay across the 10 professions. GW2 is more like…. most ranged is the same, most melee is the same.

What?! Why do you say that?! Do you really think this way? Can you be MORE specific? Why Assassins where so much more different from warrior in gw1 then thiefs from warrior in gw2? Can you explain me that for an example?

roll a glass cannon party.

then try the bosses.

It doesn’t take nearly as long. Mostly because you’d probably be dead due to the challenge but you can take bosses down in half or a third of the time.

HiddenNick.7206:

Zeldain.5710:

c : having no particularly distinctive quality or application

Especially letter C represents the class structure and combat design in Guild Wars 2.

Can you be MORE specific?! Like give me an example of game where you have a good variety of classes and why do you think that all classes in Gw2 are the same?! I really have no idea why are you saying that. You are trying to be a wise guy. And that’s not a discussion in any way.

Just because you don’t get, doesn’t mean you should call him a wiseguy.

The truth is simply that there is too little definition in GW2. The classes are distinct in name but not so much in purpose. So a ranger or warrior or elementalist are different names, technically with different names but their purpose is to dps and support. Both really is best. Then the rest of it depends not so much on your skill choices or trait assignments (what could have been depth but isn’t in the end) but on your ability to dodge and ress team mates.

This is what gives it all a generic and non-specific feel to it. Trinity games have clear roles. I’ve played mostly Aion and SWTOR myself as far as MMOs go and GW1 as well. What I see there is that there are clear roles and different ways of doing those roles. In SWTOR for example you can play a tank in heavy armour or light armour. Different types of damage mitigation. Also healers there have different styles.

The combination of roles and styles and the possibility to choose skill trees with different directions and the ability to use all skills you learn gives characters more depth and gives me more to work towards when gearing up. Why?

Because the choices you make matter. Now, it doesn’t have to be the set trinity for me in a game but I do want to feel that when I equip gear or choose skills or traits that they matter on a fundamental level. In GW2 they do make a difference but not enough to matter in basically the whole game (sPvP aside).

I believe that PvE in GW2 is boring because they insisted on balancing skills around PvP and taking roles out of the game. This simply results in a anyone can do anything situation which leaves flavour only really. And even though the classes do have flavour the game lacks there as well especially in character development.

You see, a lot of people like to feel like they are progressing, that they are going somewhere with their characters. The higher the level in GW2, the less significant it is. You don’t unlock any new skills anymore, new content becomes more and more sparse. I argued before that the max level in this game could be 30 because of that. After that you only really unlock dungeons and new leveling zones. Nothing else. Gear progression at max level is an issue also. For actual stat progression there’s not enough and max gear, except the ascended items is too easy from that point of view. On the other hand the casual approach wants more and better skins and there the game is surprisingly lacking. I say surprisingly because they had so much better design before.

And in the end, endgame gear is either dead easy or crazy RNG grind. Also moddability of gear is very limited with just one upgrade slots. For me it’s just too little of everything.

So put it all together and I see a picture of dumbed down PvE that’s spiced up with insta kills and massive hp bosses and I am not surprised that a lot of people got bored with that. I know I did.

I don’t really understand how so many people still like this game (although I have no idea how many still do) but that doesn’t matter. If the game is still a success, well, that’s great for you guys.

But please, if you don’t understand that people can have a different opinion, don’t just accuse em of being wiseguys.

The game is bland when you are used to games where choices do have consequences and I don’t just mean MMOs. Games in general. If I make a necromancer here or a warrrior really doesn’t matter. Some may see this as great freedom. But for me if choices make no difference, it means nothing to me. And that’s what is the case here and why PvE is so uninspiring. In my view of course.

Brilliant and accurate read, Gehanna.

Champions Online has a system where your character can pretty much do whatever you want to do. You’re not even limited to staying within a single “powerset” (think of them as classes, if you’d like). You get to cherry pick which powers you want (as long as you meet pre-reqs), you get to pick which stats are the most important for you (and thus scale with your level), and you get to pick tiny extras to any stats for a little boost, as well as pick enhancements for your powers. You’re always given plenty of options but there are hard limits so you can’t simply just take everything.

Things work together and are dependent on various other things about your character, and it then features roles in combat (tank,support,dps-range,dps-melee) but the roles also have downsides. You can work around a lot of things if you’re clever/creative, but my point being is that your character has the potential to do literally anything you want. But you have to make choices to get it. You have to decide “well, I’ll take less of X so I can get more of Y, since Y is something I really want to focus on.”

I often feel like GW2 wants to be sort of similar to champions. Grouping is really only necessary for 5-man dungeons or world bosses, usually, and for regular overworld questing you can handle almost anything if you know what you’re doing.

But there’s never really much choice. Yes, I should retract that. There’s a few choices you can make. Your Utility skills and traits and weapons and in the end… your character doesn’t change that much in how it approaches the world. Your goal in GW2 is simply to spam your skills to meet the 5% so you get credit and can get “loot”, and then… spam your skills because that’s all there is to do in GW2.

The choices we do get to make feel shallow and unrewarding. There’s not much downside for picking one thing over another, so there’s not much upside to it either. Just pick a character and use your buttons.

Bosses are boring because they are so easy you don’t have to care about their mechanics.

Wethospu.6437:

Bosses are boring because they are so easy you don’t have to care about their mechanics.

You’re half right. They have no mechanics to care about. Kiting, doding, and massive HP pools are not mechanics.

My favorite boss fight is Captain Ashym in urban fractal.
And maybe the cat golems in the uncategorized because Guardians can cheese it X)

I love the fire elemental in metrica, love tequatl the sunless, the effigy boss in cof exp would be nice if it did more damage faster :p

Most people skip past so many bosses in this game i’m surprised anyone know what these bosses even do these days..

I Anet actually put rewards on these kitten things we might actually get to fight some of them…

Ya know, a lot of folks gripe about class homogenization and I can SOMEWHAT see that issue. But I feel it’s more due to bad implementation of stats such as condition dmg being GARBAGE in pve somewhat and magic find EXISTING, nothing says “unnecessary reason to knacker up drop rates” than magic find

If you consider a group and a solo build to be two different things and have the use of the group build in dungeons be highly and OBVIOUSLY more appealing, then it’s fine. But lets face it, how many selfish sams do we see going in with glascannon garbage because encounters induce narcolepsy if you don’t pack enough firepower to down a raid boss in one rotation? and the irony being I still find myself falling asleep during dungeons in GW2 lol…

Vasham.2408:

Wethospu.6437:

Bosses are boring because they are so easy you don’t have to care about their mechanics.

You’re half right. They have no mechanics to care about. Kiting, doding, and massive HP pools are not mechanics.

Even Lupicus is only about kiting, dodging and HP pool. But when a boss has extremely threatening or otherwise strong abilities your team must react somehow and that’s when it gets interesting.

Gehenna.3625:

The game is bland when you are used to games where choices do have consequences and I don’t just mean MMOs. Games in general. If I make a necromancer here or a warrrior really doesn’t matter. Some may see this as great freedom. But for me if choices make no difference, it means nothing to me. And that’s what is the case here and why PvE is so uninspiring. In my view of course.

So you say i can make a warrior get to know him well and all max him out, and then make a necromancer and i will be able to play him just like that warrior i had and still be a good necromancer?

Vasham.2408:

Wethospu.6437:

Bosses are boring because they are so easy you don’t have to care about their mechanics.

You’re half right. They have no mechanics to care about. Kiting, doding, and massive HP pools are not mechanics.

You don’t even have to look at the screen half the time… just hit the same key combinations since the boss does the same thing over and over again. Zergs are total snoozefests, you don’t even have to press any buttons, just auto attack and watch tv instead.

Kurakura.7281:

I totally agree.
GW1 had very distinct variations between the gameplay across the 10 professions. GW2 is more like…. most ranged is the same, most melee is the same.

Erm, wat?

No, they really didn’t. In fact, the dual profession system only blurred the lines between professions even more.

It was entirely possible for me to run a very effective necromancer leeching build on my ranger. Or a ritualist spirit build. Or a scythe build, or even a dagger build. All while still having the primary purpose of playing a Barrage ranger.

GW1’s profession lines are far more blurry than WoW, to be honest.

Whereas in GW2, I am never confused when I see another player. I can tell precisely what prof that player is, just by watching him in action. I see a pet, I know he’s a ranger. Turrets? Engineer. Clones pop up, it’s a mesmer. There’s never a question of which prof I’m looking at.

And what makes this game work for me is the fact that all of these distinct professions can perform a lot of the same roles, just in different ways. To those not paying attention, that just seems like “everyone’s the same”. To those who are, it’s the sign of a game which has done away with defined roles and is allowing everybody to play the game the way they want to play it, without being shoved forcibly into the situation of “you’re running this build because we need an X in our party”.

And that’s honestly not a bad thing. It’s just a lot different than you’re used to.

critickitten.1498:

Kurakura.7281:

I totally agree.
GW1 had very distinct variations between the gameplay across the 10 professions. GW2 is more like…. most ranged is the same, most melee is the same.

Erm, wat?

No, they really didn’t. In fact, the dual profession system only blurred the lines between professions even more.

It was entirely possible for me to run a very effective necromancer leeching build on my ranger. Or a ritualist spirit build. Or a scythe build, or even a dagger build. All while still having the primary purpose of playing a Barrage ranger.

GW1’s profession lines are far more blurry than WoW, to be honest.

Whereas in GW2, I am never confused when I see another player. I can tell precisely what prof that player is, just by watching him in action. I see a pet, I know he’s a ranger. Turrets? Engineer. Clones pop up, it’s a mesmer. There’s never a question of which prof I’m looking at.

And what makes this game work for me is the fact that all of these distinct professions can perform a lot of the same roles, just in different ways. To those not paying attention, that just seems like “everyone’s the same”. To those who are, it’s the sign of a game which has done away with defined roles and is allowing everybody to play the game the way they want to play it, without being shoved forcibly into the situation of “you’re running this build because we need an X in our party”.

And that’s honestly not a bad thing. It’s just a lot different than you’re used to.

Honestly it’s a moot point. Every class’s role is “deal damage” even if it’s through a gimmick like kits, clones, or pets. With no defining trinity roles the gimmicks that form the backbones of classes are pointless window dressing, nothing more.

Vasham.2408:

Honestly it’s a moot point. Every class’s role is “deal damage” even if it’s through a gimmick like kits, clones, or pets. With no defining trinity roles the gimmicks that form the backbones of classes are pointless window dressing, nothing more.

I’m not sure you understand the meaning of the term “gimmick”. This seems to be a common problem with gamers nowadays, ever since the Wii’s release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimmick

In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something “stand out” from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature.

Pets do not function at all like clones which do not function at all like turrets. These are special features that not only define the class but also differentiate how that class conducts the roles of offense and defense, as well as how it functions in regards to the “loose trinity” of damage/control/support.

If you’re going to boil everything down to such an absurd degree as “everything does damage, ergo the way in which they do damage is a gimmick”, then I’d argue that GW1 is a game built upon thousands of gimmicks. Because what’s the difference between heal + condition removal and regen and just straight healing….aren’t they all just heals in the end after all?

Heck, I guess that means WoW’s built on gimmicks too. And every other MMO, to boot.

How about we take a stance that’s a bit more grounded in reality, please? Delivery methods for damage are perfectly valid forms of differentiation in every other game so let’s stop pretending it doesn’t count in GW2.

critickitten.1498:

Kurakura.7281:

I totally agree.
GW1 had very distinct variations between the gameplay across the 10 professions. GW2 is more like…. most ranged is the same, most melee is the same.

Erm, wat?

No, they really didn’t. In fact, the dual profession system only blurred the lines between professions even more.

It was entirely possible for me to run a very effective necromancer leeching build on my ranger. Or a ritualist spirit build. Or a scythe build, or even a dagger build. All while still having the primary purpose of playing a Barrage ranger.

GW1’s profession lines are far more blurry than WoW, to be honest.

Whereas in GW2, I am never confused when I see another player. I can tell precisely what prof that player is, just by watching him in action. I see a pet, I know he’s a ranger. Turrets? Engineer. Clones pop up, it’s a mesmer. There’s never a question of which prof I’m looking at.

And what makes this game work for me is the fact that all of these distinct professions can perform a lot of the same roles, just in different ways. To those not paying attention, that just seems like “everyone’s the same”. To those who are, it’s the sign of a game which has done away with defined roles and is allowing everybody to play the game the way they want to play it, without being shoved forcibly into the situation of “you’re running this build because we need an X in our party”.

And that’s honestly not a bad thing. It’s just a lot different than you’re used to.

So there is this game that I’m been playing lately, vindictus, and it’s a compeltely different combat system. There are no holy trinities there either, and even less opportunity for support or anything. Every profession is DPS DPS and even more DPS. And yet the play style between each profession is vastly different. For damage mitigation, one profession might dodge, others might encase themselves in a magical crystal, another may use a sheild, while others may absorb the attack and reflect it, and others may become invulnerable for 0.3 seconds to slip through attacks. GW2 doesn’t really have that. Every character dodges, and the block mechanics are slow in this game and nothing feels “precise”. For DPS in vindictus every character does it differently too. One may exclusively use direct ranged magic damage, while others may absorb attacks and convert them into buffs, others spam spin attacks doing circles around the boss, and the controls and motions are different between characters.

GW2 needs more variations in ways to mitigate damage, deal damage, and how to support the party. Every profession has a dodge, block, evasion mechanic, and nearly every profession has ranged and melee attacks. Why can’t there be different ways of dealing damage or using skills other than just hitting hot keys? Why can’t melee attacks be bound to the left click button, and allow us to control when to use the 2nd or 3rd attack in a skill chain? Even in a game like vindictus where DPS is the only combat mechanic, they found ways to make the gameplay between the professions vastly distinct.

Kurakura.7281:

So there is this game that I’m been playing lately, vindictus, and it’s a compeltely different combat system. There are no holy trinities there either, and even less opportunity for support or anything. Every profession is DPS DPS and even more DPS. And yet the play style between each profession is vastly different. For damage mitigation, one profession might dodge, others might encase themselves in a magical crystal, another may use a sheild, while others may absorb the attack and reflect it, and others may become invulnerable for 0.3 seconds to slip through attacks. GW2 doesn’t really have that. Every character dodges, and the block mechanics are slow in this game and nothing feels “precise”. For DPS in vindictus every character does it differently too. One may exclusively use direct ranged magic damage, while others may absorb attacks and convert them into buffs, others spam spin attacks doing circles around the boss, and the controls and motions are different between characters.

Warriors can block with shield stance, or defy pain.
Mesmers have distortion, also can reflect projectiles through feedback
Rangers can allow pets to take damage instead of them.
Necromancers have a 2nd hp bar.
Engineers have that mini-potion invulnerability
Guardians have Aegis, and an aoe reflection wall
Thieves have stealth (mainly de-aggro purposes) and an aoe projectile block skill
Elementalists have mist form.

Each classes have vastly different ways to mitigate damage in this game too.

HiddenNick.7206:

ShinraGuardian.8053:

You probably don’t play WoW to the extend of end-game raiding.

99.999% of WoW encounters have mindless cooldown mechanic. Raids are just a tiny part of all game encounters. And still… They aren’t so complicated as you would like them to be. Also there are available only for very limited part of population.

May I see your armory, since you must have cleared all those mindless encounters to have such knowledge

So, anyone here actually played WoW or all just mindless GW2 fanboys? I’m so tired of seeing such silly troll posts :/

critickitten.1498:

Vasham.2408:

Honestly it’s a moot point. Every class’s role is “deal damage” even if it’s through a gimmick like kits, clones, or pets. With no defining trinity roles the gimmicks that form the backbones of classes are pointless window dressing, nothing more.

I’m not sure you understand the meaning of the term “gimmick”. This seems to be a common problem with gamers nowadays, ever since the Wii’s release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimmick

In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something “stand out” from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature.

Pets do not function at all like clones which do not function at all like turrets. These are special features that not only define the class but also differentiate how that class conducts the roles of offense and defense, as well as how it functions in regards to the “loose trinity” of damage/control/support.

If you’re going to boil everything down to such an absurd degree as “everything does damage, ergo the way in which they do damage is a gimmick”, then I’d argue that GW1 is a game built upon thousands of gimmicks. Because what’s the difference between heal + condition removal and regen and just straight healing….aren’t they all just heals in the end after all?

Heck, I guess that means WoW’s built on gimmicks too. And every other MMO, to boot.

How about we take a stance that’s a bit more grounded in reality, please? Delivery methods for damage are perfectly valid forms of differentiation in every other game so let’s stop pretending it doesn’t count in GW2.

But the definition of gimmick clearly defines the classes in GW2. Each one is a DPS class that is only defined by it’s gimmick:

• Warriors – Can build Adrenaline
• Guardians – Can give people Aegis
• Mesmers – Clones and Phantasms
• Thieves – Can steal from people for an extra attack
• Engineers – Kits and the toolbelt
• Elementalists – Can switch attunements
• Rangers – Have pets that fight with them
• Necromancers – Can shift into Death Shroud

Now yes, WoW classes have similar resource gimmicks with their classes but it’s different. The resources (Runes/Runic Power, Rage, Energy/Chi) are just something to draw upon to perform your role within the group and each class/spec has other defining features within each individual role as well. However there is only one role though in GW2. To make an analogy it would be like each WoW class is a different flavor of ice cream while in Guild Wars 2 everything is a variant of vanilla. And like such it gets boring and stale quickly.

The world bosses in this game should be all about a big boss with a few strong moves, and TONS of adds and other environmental effects.

Vasham.2408:

But the definition of gimmick clearly defines the classes in GW2. Each one is a DPS class that is only defined by it’s gimmick:

• Warriors – Can build Adrenaline
• Guardians – Can give people Aegis
• Mesmers – Clones and Phantasms
• Thieves – Can steal from people for an extra attack
• Engineers – Kits and the toolbelt
• Elementalists – Can switch attunements
• Rangers – Have pets that fight with them
• Necromancers – Can shift into Death Shroud

Now yes, WoW classes have similar resource gimmicks with their classes but it’s different. The resources (Runes/Runic Power, Rage, Energy/Chi) are just something to draw upon to perform your role within the group and each class/spec has other defining features within each individual role as well. However there is only one role though in GW2. To make an analogy it would be like each WoW class is a different flavor of ice cream while in Guild Wars 2 everything is a variant of vanilla. And like such it gets boring and stale quickly.

This is a completely false statement that (again) illustrates that you don’t understand what a “gimmick” is.

Every class uses different sets of weapons, and each weapon set functions differently by class. Every class uses different primary mechanics to perform the roles of damage/control/support. Every class has traits which allow them to perform these roles but the method in which they are implemented is different.

Every class is different. To pretend otherwise is being dishonest.

You’re insisting on creating the illusion that GW2 is all about DPS, but the rationale you’re using can be applied to literally every other MMO (and indeed every RPG in general) in existence. You’re generalizing to the point of total absurdity.

Again, this is like arguing that all damage in GW1 is exactly the same, and how all combat in GW1 boils down to killing the enemies as fast as possible. It’s generalization to such a degree that it’s meaningless, and it’s extremely dishonest and unfair to the massive variation available in the game.

We get it, you like the trinity and you can’t detach yourself from the mindset it creates. And what that means is that GW2 is not the game for you, because GW2 has always advertised itself as a game that would not have the trinity in it.

bosses are made the way they are so that players can solo story mode if thats what you meant