Guild Wars 2

Long Post, but on an important topic (imo)

With the games many different types of Environmental objects such as doors, supplies, blockades and the constant requirement to destroy them, why then are they immune to all condition damage?

In a general statement, there are 2 major build aspects in the game Power and Conditions. From these 2 aspects we derive our sub builds which in my opinion gives the game variety where not every warrior is the same. But due to this current mechanic the game heavy handily pushes players to Power builds as a vast number of hearts, events, pvp objectives and dungeons require your character to be able to destroy something. With a Power build these objects can melt in 1 or 2 attacks while condition players are left attacking a supply barrel for 30-120 seconds to be able to destroy the same object due to the fact that none of the conditions that the player normally uses for offence work against the objects.

I understand that if your trying to go for a realistic feel that a door or barrel would not bleed but… Why are doors and barrels of oil immune to fire? This makes little to no sense at all. Even so, would it not be so hard to create a new condition for these objects that bleeds, torments, confusion and poison would apply to objects if having them directly affect them is to offensive? Words such as rotting, decay, ethereal deconstruction, splintering could be used if absolutely necessary to convey the same conditions to environmental objects that we apply to living targets.

In the end, both game play choices should be encouraged and not so heavily penalized by the overabundance of environmental obstacles that your attacks are ineffective against.

Well It’s perfectly logical to stab yourself through an armored door with a dagger, while setting it on fire and burning it with flamethrowers, and all kinds of other firedispensers have no effect at all….

Of course when your friend comes with 2 pistols he shoots holes in the door, but the fire, well nothing happens… guess fire proofing is mandatory in Tyria

Too much realism is a never-ending quest. You have to draw the line somewhere. Why can’t we explore areas not on the map? Why does that little 3 foot barrier stop me from climbing over into the next zone that doesn’t exist? That door I have to find the key for . . .why can’t I just whack it with my hammer until it is smashed to pieces? For that matter, why can’t I just go for a head shot (instant kill) on everything that would die instantly from a head shot? And all those stacks of Black Lion chests, why can’t I just open them with a hammer and chisel instead of hunting for keys? If they are indestructible, why don’t people make buildings out of them and stick them together with mortar? I suppose the resulting wall would not be indestructible unless you could get indestructible mortar as well.

Different games draw the line in different places. First person shooters let you trash the environment typically while massive RPG’s typically don’t.

Because you can’t bleed or confuse a brick wall.

Nutjob.9021:

(missing the point)

OP’s not asking for what you seem to be talking about. They’re talking about objects that can be destroyed with direct damage but are immune to condition damage.

It is very annoying for condition damage builds. I’d love for that to be rectified AND fixing all the objects that you can’t hit with certain (usually ranged) weapons at all – getting that “Obstructed” message since beta on some of them.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Because you can’t bleed or confuse a brick wall.

But you can burn a wooden door. And bleed an elemental made from rock/fire/ice/electricity. Please.

The only theoretically logical(well, imo) answer I could come up with is a strong magic resist skill that is placed on such items such as doors, gates, barriers, etc.. I know it sounds weird or even idiotic. Lets look at the Koda for a moment, the two legged Polar Bears in EotM(Edge of the Mists for those that are still new to GW2), we all have to wait a specific amount of time before we can truly do any kind of damage to them(I forget the amount of time) right? This is one of those magic skills.

Thinking my own theory up, I’d say while Fire based attacks and fiery weapons would cause wood and oil to go up in flames, the magic should also reduce the effectiveness but not as severely as kittenay, a normal iron weapon or necro spell.

Again this is mostly an opinion, so don’t go bashing me just because you don’t agree with it.

dace.8019:

Nutjob.9021:

(missing the point)

OP’s not asking for what you seem to be talking about. They’re talking about objects that can be destroyed with direct damage but are immune to condition damage.

It is very annoying for condition damage builds. I’d love for that to be rectified AND fixing all the objects that you can’t hit with certain (usually ranged) weapons at all – getting that “Obstructed” message since beta on some of them.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Because you can’t bleed or confuse a brick wall.

But you can burn a wooden door. And bleed an elemental made from rock/fire/ice/electricity. Please.

Ok, how about this then.

Conditions are not affected by toughness.

If environmental objects were able to be affected by conditions, they would do the full force of their damage on keep walls and the such in WvW, thus completely breaking the game type.

Why do conditions not affect the environment? Balance.

Kyin.1678:

With the games many different types of Environmental objects such as doors, supplies, blockades and the constant requirement to destroy them, why then are they immune to all condition damage?
…
I understand that if your trying to go for a realistic feel that a door or barrel would not bleed but… Why are doors and barrels of oil immune to fire? This makes little to no sense at all. Even so, would it not be so hard to create a new condition for these objects that bleeds, torments, confusion and poison would apply to objects if having them directly affect them is to offensive? Words such as rotting, decay, ethereal deconstruction, splintering could be used if absolutely necessary to convey the same conditions to environmental objects that we apply to living targets.

I do think it comes down to realism. As you state, a door can’t Bleed, Blind, Confuse, Fear, Poison or Torment; but it can Burn, Chill, Cripple, Immobilize, be Venerable and Weak.

So ANet could do it like Embers and be Immune to Fire but subject to Bleed(don’t go there).

In that case Environmental objects would just have a bunch more Immunities than Living Creatures. And if they want to take it one step further, since Environmental Objects have increased immunities then maybe they should have increased susceptibilities.
A Door would be Immune to Bleed but take extra damage from Burning.

Now on the negative side consider this.
You are in WvW attacking the Door of a Tower which your melee attack has just inflicted Burning to; why would the burning door not do damage to you? Or for that matter, when I drop my massively nasty Meteor Storm on said door, how are those searing balls of flame smart enough to ignore MY teammates? Undortunately you do have to draw the line Somewhere.

To my knowledge it is very difficult to bleed, poison, confuse or torment a piece of wood/masonry.

Burning I’ll give you, but that’s about it.

I think some people are deliberately ignoring the question, which is why are condi builds are much less effective against solid objects than zerk builds.

If you’re talking about realism, then smashing your sword against a solid brick wall would break the sword, beating it on a door would have little effect other than to blunt the sword, etc, so why do power builds do any damage against them either?

It’s an issue that needs addressing, but I highly doubt it’s high up on Anet’s lists of ‘bugs or balances’ that need to be dealt with.

The last time I saw walls bleeding, there was a disembodied voice bellowing “Get out!”

Well i agree that burning should definitely affect environmental objects.

I agree that attacking objects as a condimancer can be a pain, because it takes forever. But I understand why conditions shouldn’t be used. Not only for realism, but for balance issues as well.

A better option (IMO) would make it so that objects only recieve base damage. That way a zerk warrior would do the same damage as a cleric guardian. This means that such things as might and other power buffs are not taken into account when attacking objects. This puts everyone on the same/similar level and doesn’t punish or reward certain builds/professions when dealing with objects.
If I understand it, all professions share the same base power so this would put everyone on an even level.

Whether or not a door can bleed is not is not really the point on my topic. I am pointing out that conditions are completely ignored by environmental objects, thus heavily discouraging this style of play. Attacks that apply bleeding or poison could with a little extra code apply a condition to an environmental object with an adjective that feels more real such as Splintering or Decaying. These would just be cosmetic conditions and would function just like the source that applied them, that way if a warrior with a sword equipped and built for condition damage attacked a door he could be just as effective as a necromancer with a dagger equipped build for power. In this way both power builds and condition builds would have some effectiveness against environmental objects. In the games current state as condition necromancer finding an event were I am asked to destroy a bunch of boxes is just cruel.

Husks on the other hand are harder to kill with zerker gear. Equality!

pdavis.8031:

I agree that attacking objects as a condimancer can be a pain, because it takes forever. But I understand why conditions shouldn’t be used. Not only for realism, but for balance issues as well.

A better option (IMO) would make it so that objects only recieve base damage. That way a zerk warrior would do the same damage as a cleric guardian. This means that such things as might and other power buffs are not taken into account when attacking objects. This puts everyone on the same/similar level and doesn’t punish or reward certain builds/professions when dealing with objects.
If I understand it, all professions share the same base power so this would put everyone on an even level.

Your solution would be fine, and in fact most likely easier to code. Damage to objects could just be a flat % of its total health and developers could decide based on how strong they thought the object is and how many hits it should take to destroy.

My REAL guess is that separating WHAT conditions should (make sense to) effect specific objects (and that would be different on each type of object) is just not currently possible. So they are all ignored.

Why it isn’t possible is one question and IF it could be made possible (technically or resource available wise) is another. Nobody without a RED display name could say for sure.

I disagree that “if a door can bleed”, isn’t relevant….I’d be willing to bet if Conditions on Objects were ever in place during testing, a bleeding door or Burning Rock is EXACTLY why all conditions are currently ignored. Those things look 10x more stupid than NO Condition ever effecting an object

Now I’m in no way implying that I don’t thing relevant conditions should effect objects it makes sense they should effect, but I do NOT think doors should be able to bleed, be poisoned or confused just because players that want to use Condition builds want “equal” damage footing in the game. Sorry, THAT suggestion is just absurd and selfish..

Trixie.7614:

Husks on the other hand are harder to kill with zerker gear. Equality!

except that the number of times in your characters life you come across husk like objects vs the number of times you come across environmental objects such as a supply crates or doors is 1 to 100,000 (fictional number to emphasize point). Also there are plenty of monsters that are immune to conditions such as destroyers or dredge.

Equally as concerning and paired with “object”-like behavior, the monolith bosses (and gates and crates and…) are immune to criticals, because in some fashion, they are also “objects.”

They should just have a new condition called Decay and it acts like bleed but for objects.

So when you apply condition that damages over time on the object, it automatically changes to Decay.

They could just take a percentage (I would start testing around 50%) of the total damage from a condition that would be applied and have it instantly be taken from the objects health pool.

Personally though I kind of want to see them assign a value for each attack to take from an object based on the number of hits it can get out over a period of time. Then condi damage and power have no impact on how fast the object can be killed and the speed at which they can be killed can be more easily balanced based on the objects health pool.

The system would be convoluted but I just dislike that your build has any variance on something as simple as breaking a door.

I look forward to poisoning doors and fearing balistas.

rapthorne.7345:

To my knowledge it is very difficult to bleed, poison, confuse or torment a piece of wood/masonry.

Burning I’ll give you, but that’s about it.

But I use acidic poisons!

Serophous.9085:

The last time I saw walls bleeding, there was a disembodied voice bellowing “Get out!”

Ah so you admit it is possible :P

iSmack.1768:

They should just have a new condition called Decay and it acts like bleed but for objects.

So when you apply condition that damages over time on the object, it automatically changes to Decay.

Yeah if realism is the issue then they simply need to do something like this.

Why not have set dmg u can do with out stats so condis can also do same amont of dmg to structure as zerkers would

StarNightz.8496:

Why not have set dmg u can do with out stats so condis can also do same amont of dmg to structure as zerkers would

Which is the idea behind the flat % damage from player attacks. Sense the only stat that Environmental Objects check is your power they could just set it to X% given the object an solve the entire problem. Then all builds would damage Environmental Objects at the same rate allowing developers easily set how long it will take for an object to be destroyed.

problem though with flat attack for condi weapons it’s non existant… necro scepter does 84 on a rabid build… compared with 4k for a buffed GS that seems a bit of a difference.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

problem though with flat attack for condi weapons it’s non existant… necro scepter does 84 on a rabid build… compared with 4k for a buffed GS that seems a bit of a difference.

I think the line of thought would exist more as doing damage based on the base damage of the weapon, not accounting for skills used or buffs applied.

So, in that case:
A fast-swinging one-hander and slower two-hander might come out somewhat even, and Exotic/Ascended damages objects more, as to be expected. But, stacking 25 might and being full zerk wouldn’t matter to object breaking.

OR, objects have a standardized “on hit” to reduce HP design.
—- Problem solved

Conditions should work on structures, especially siege weapons. They can burn, bleed oil, get confused and kill themselves like my old Harddrive, have it’s gears scrape and stick with Torment and have it’s aim redirected with blind, and so on.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Why do conditions not affect the environment? Balance.

Balance is the reason why conditions vs. objects (or just object damage/resistances in general) should be addressed. Players in Sinister gear are as squishy as Berserker geared characters.

Factor that into PvE and it begins to make even less sense from a balance perspective.

Yeah at the very least fire damage should affect objects. I want to be able to burn those engineer turrets down in PvP!

What about just adding an additional condition especially for objects? Inspired by WC3’s Lich’s Elite you could call it ‘Decay’. And every condition-delivering attack has an equivalent amount of decay if objects are targeted.

I’d like to see this aspect of the game evened out a little. I play condition damage characters quite a bit, and I see no good reason why there should be such a disparity between conditioners and power builds when attacking PvE objects.

A percentage of your condition damage is converted to ordinary damage when attacking objects, for example. Forget all the differences between bleeding a weapon rack or poisoning a rock; just code a percentage of the character’s total condition damage applied into ordinary damage for purposes of destroyable objects.

Edit: I’m not saying this suggestion should be applied to things like an engineer’s turrets, just ordinary destroyable stuff in PvE.

Probably because you can’t crit them,they don’t get buffs or heals either compare it to engi turrets.