Guild Wars 2

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

The “core argument at play” boils down to:

“My opinion > Your opinion, because my opinions are facts”

Wrong. The core argument at play is “why bother having better stats on Ascended gear if the entire point was to introduce the Agony mechanic?”.

Granted, it’s somewhat flawed since the second stated reason for Ascended gear was to “bridge the gap” between Exotic and Legendary….but on the other hand, there was no actual statistical gap between those two sets of gear whatsoever. The only “gap” was a perceived gap in the amount of grinding, which….was supposed to be the point, I’m pretty sure.

So the question being asked is entirely fair: why bother increasing the stats?

If you’re not going to read the discussion, don’t bother posting in it.

I don’t know why you’re so arrogant, but the reason it needs better stats is to give people a tangible reward for their time. Duh.

If it isn’t cosmetic, and it only gives resistance to a passive effect, do you really think people would try to achieve the reward? No, they wouldn’t. The gear would, in effect, be useless. Fractal levels don’t only scale the agony, but inflate enemy stats as well.

So while you’d gear up with pink text and resistance, you would in essence be becoming weaker as you progressed in difficulty. This is the opposite effect of player progression and would probably feel really bad during game play.

This is obvious. So obvious in fact, that I’m surprised you didn’t see it what with your all-knowing attitude.

Mackdose.6504:

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

The “core argument at play” boils down to:

“My opinion > Your opinion, because my opinions are facts”

Wrong. The core argument at play is “why bother having better stats on Ascended gear if the entire point was to introduce the Agony mechanic?”.

Granted, it’s somewhat flawed since the second stated reason for Ascended gear was to “bridge the gap” between Exotic and Legendary….but on the other hand, there was no actual statistical gap between those two sets of gear whatsoever. The only “gap” was a perceived gap in the amount of grinding, which….was supposed to be the point, I’m pretty sure.

So the question being asked is entirely fair: why bother increasing the stats?

If you’re not going to read the discussion, don’t bother posting in it.

I don’t know why you’re so arrogant, but the reason it needs better stats is to give people a tangible reward for their time. Duh.

If it isn’t cosmetic, and it only gives resistance to a passive effect, do you really think people would try to achieve the reward? No, they wouldn’t. The gear would, in effect, be useless. Fractal levels don’t only scale the agony, but inflate enemy stats as well.

So while you’d gear up with pink text and resistance, you would in essence be becoming weaker as you progressed in difficulty. This is the opposite effect of player progression and would probably feel really bad during game play.

This is obvious. So obvious in fact, that I’m surprised you didn’t see it what with your all-knowing attitude.

It’s definitely not an arrogant question. It’s an all too honest one. There was no gap between the exotic and legendary except the extreme 250 of everything needed just to make a legendary. And if we are to believe it’s solely for the purpose of having an agony then how do you explain this? (image below) If they were truly giving a slightly better reward for the time of gearing for agony dungeons, then add 1 extra point per stat on the ascended gear, not what they are doing with it now. Biiig big difference there.

Mackdose.6504:

I don’t know why you’re so arrogant, but the reason it needs better stats is to give people a tangible reward for their time. Duh.

If it isn’t cosmetic, and it only gives resistance to a passive effect, do you really think people would try to achieve the reward? No, they wouldn’t.

Yes, because really, what other game out there had an entire game built around cosmetic rewards that players would go after simply because they looked cool?

Oh, right.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Prestige_armor
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voltaic_Spear
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mini

“But rings can’t be shown on the character”, I can already hear you saying. To which my reply is: “what makes you think that the reason everyone pursues extraneous things is so that they can show them off?”.

Because really, if you think people won’t automatically pursue something simply because the very idea of owning it is appealing, then you don’t understand human nature at all. Sometimes it has nothing to do with showing it off. Sometimes it’s simply about having one because you decided it’s cool.

For example, if Yakkington’s Ring weren’t a grind to get, I’d get one, even if it was statistically no better than any other ring. It has a rich nostalgic lore behind it that I am able to appreciate.

tigirius.9014:

Mackdose.6504:

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

The “core argument at play” boils down to:

“My opinion > Your opinion, because my opinions are facts”

Wrong. The core argument at play is “why bother having better stats on Ascended gear if the entire point was to introduce the Agony mechanic?”.

Granted, it’s somewhat flawed since the second stated reason for Ascended gear was to “bridge the gap” between Exotic and Legendary….but on the other hand, there was no actual statistical gap between those two sets of gear whatsoever. The only “gap” was a perceived gap in the amount of grinding, which….was supposed to be the point, I’m pretty sure.

So the question being asked is entirely fair: why bother increasing the stats?

If you’re not going to read the discussion, don’t bother posting in it.

I don’t know why you’re so arrogant, but the reason it needs better stats is to give people a tangible reward for their time. Duh.

If it isn’t cosmetic, and it only gives resistance to a passive effect, do you really think people would try to achieve the reward? No, they wouldn’t. The gear would, in effect, be useless. Fractal levels don’t only scale the agony, but inflate enemy stats as well.

So while you’d gear up with pink text and resistance, you would in essence be becoming weaker as you progressed in difficulty. This is the opposite effect of player progression and would probably feel really bad during game play.

This is obvious. So obvious in fact, that I’m surprised you didn’t see it what with your all-knowing attitude.

It’s definitely not an arrogant question. It’s an all too honest one. There was no gap between the exotic and legendary except the extreme 250 of everything needed just to make a legendary. And if we are to believe it’s solely for the purpose of having an agony then how do you explain this? (image below) If they were truly giving a slightly better reward for the time of gearing for agony dungeons, then add 1 extra point per stat on the ascended gear, not what they are doing with it now. Biiig big difference there.

I like your apples to oranges screen shot of all around stat spread and the PPT stat spread. Next time compare an all around stat item to another all around stat item and you’ll find the 5%-10% increase that we already know about.

Why is it 5-10%? Because that’s the power difference between rarities. It’s consistent.

There’s a lot more thought that goes into math of the game than just “+1 stat.”

The gap that you say wasn’t there before wasn’t a stat gap. It was a time/effort gap. Ascended gear takes more time to acquire than exotics, less time than legendaries.

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

I don’t know why you’re so arrogant, but the reason it needs better stats is to give people a tangible reward for their time. Duh.

If it isn’t cosmetic, and it only gives resistance to a passive effect, do you really think people would try to achieve the reward? No, they wouldn’t.

Yes, because really, what other game out there had an entire game built around cosmetic rewards that players would go after simply because they looked cool?

Oh, right.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Prestige_armor
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voltaic_Spear
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mini

“But rings can’t be shown on the character”, I can already hear you saying. To which my reply is: “what makes you think that the reason everyone pursues extraneous things is so that they can show them off?”.

Because really, if you think people won’t automatically pursue something simply because the very idea of owning it is appealing, then you don’t understand human nature at all. Sometimes it has nothing to do with showing it off. Sometimes it’s simply about having one because you decided it’s cool.

For example, if Yakkington’s Ring weren’t a grind to get, I’d get one, even if it was statistically no better than any other ring. It has a rich nostalgic lore behind it that I am able to appreciate.

…But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a AAA mainstream MMO either. It was niche.

Thanks for completely disregarding the substance of my post to instead reference an entirely different game with different design goals. The fact remains that the gear’s effects without a stat increase would be mechanically hollow (read: NOT FUN), and therefore bad design.

Not everyone would like to spend hours of their free time for a useless piece of gear because of its lore.

Mackdose.6504:

The gap that you say wasn’t there before wasn’t a stat gap. It was a time/effort gap. Ascended gear takes more time to acquire than exotics, less time than legendaries.

Except games should primarily be about skill and fun, not rewards for “effort”. To be fair though, I can see how traditional RPG fans may want to grind for high stat items. I just wish ANet would keep it out of WvW. After much repetition I’m up to lvl 9 fractals so I can get ascended rings for WvW and it’s boring as hell.

Mackdose.6504:

…But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a AAA mainstream MMO either. It was niche.

Thanks for completely disregarding the substance of my post to instead reference an entirely different game with different design goals. The fact remains that the gear’s effects without a stat increase would be mechanically hollow (read: NOT FUN), and therefore bad design.

Not everyone would like to spend hours of their free time for a useless piece of gear because of its lore.

Time to use that age-old argument that this forum is all too fond of using:

“WoW is over there, go play that instead, lawlz”

People bought GW2 on the promise that it would continue the design beliefs of GW1 (as the developers themselves said it would). So naturally people are probably going to want one of its core principles to be retained across games. Just sayin’.

Mackdose.6504:

The gap that you say wasn’t there before wasn’t a stat gap. It was a time/effort gap. Ascended gear takes more time to acquire than exotics, less time than legendaries.

Correct, but that still ignores the core question. Why bother making them have higher stats when exotic and legendary items had no gap between them in terms of stats? Why introduce a stat gap when there wasn’t one to start with?

Because “people won’t go after them if they don’t have stats”? I really hope you have a better reason than that.

Why is it 5-10%? Because that’s the power difference between rarities. It’s consistent.

Now I have an urge to draw a picture of a GW2 player trying to decide whether to replace his equipped Exotic G3 Rarity with an Ascended tier G4 Rarity. Alas, my lack of drawing talent….

critickitten.1498:

Time to use that age-old argument that this forum is all too fond of using:

“WoW is over there, go play that instead, lawlz”

People bought GW2 on the promise that it would continue the design beliefs of GW1 (as the developers themselves said it would). So naturally people are probably going to want one of its core principles to be retained across games. Just sayin’.

And here I thought you had a better understanding of my position than that, maybe you should go back and read my last 5 or so posts. I’m sure you’ll find why I’m not playing WoW in one of them.

Because “people won’t go after them if they don’t have stats”? I really hope you have a better reason than that.

I do, since you are better at dissecting my posts in quotes than actually comprehending them.

Playing higher level fractals without the stat increase (progression) would not be fun or satisfying. If you can’t see why this is a big reason, I’m not sure why you want to talk about game mechanics at all.

Mackdose.6504:

Playing higher level fractals without the stat increase (progression) would not be fun or satisfying. If you can’t see why this is a big reason, I’m not sure why you want to talk about game mechanics at all.

So clearly I’m doing something wrong then, because (and stop me if you’ve heard this crazy idea before) I was actually playing Fractals because….it was actually a lot of fun to play in. Not for gear, not for some deluded sense of “progression”….but for FUN.

Imagine that.

Mackdose.6504:

Playing higher level fractals without the stat increase (progression) would not be fun or satisfying. If you can’t see why this is a big reason, I’m not sure why you want to talk about game mechanics at all.

Why would it not be fun or satisfying? You keep going to challenge yourself and see how far you can get with your SKILL not gear. I want to say you’re playing the wrong game but after Nov 15th I think that no longer applies.

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

Playing higher level fractals without the stat increase (progression) would not be fun or satisfying. If you can’t see why this is a big reason, I’m not sure why you want to talk about game mechanics at all.

So clearly I’m doing something wrong then, because (and stop me if you’ve heard this crazy idea before) I was actually playing Fractals because….it was actually a lot of fun to play in. Not for gear, not for some deluded sense of “progression”….but for FUN.

Imagine that.

Okay, since you are now officially straw-manning my arguments, play the high-level (25+)fractals without ascended at all, let me know how much fun you had and if an item that literally does nothing but reduce agony damage would feel rewarding.

Chances are, most people would say “that’s not worth it.”

Mackdose.6504:

Okay, since you are now officially straw-manning my arguments, play the high-level (25+)fractals without ascended at all, let me know how much fun you had and if an item that literally does nothing but reduce agony damage would feel rewarding.

It would still feel plenty rewarding.

The concept of Agony and Infusion came from GW1, and boiled down to simply killing a particular monster and bringing his essence to a particular NPC to get it “infused”. And while it was implemented in a clunky way at first, it was an easy way to introduce “progression” without changing the player’s statistical strength at all. Suddenly this mighty enemy that crushed you in combat was significantly weakened, making him seem more killable. That’s story progression and power progression without ever actually increasing your power at all.

If they had implemented it in the same way in GW2, people would have been fine with it. Gather X Fractal Relics to infuse one piece of armor with Agony Resistance, making you that much more resilient to the effect. Poof, your desire for “progression” is answered without even adding a new tier of gear at all.

You’re much too attached to this extra tier of gear to realize just how poorly this whole thing has been implemented.

The ascended gear makes a noticeable difference just at critical damage. The amount of critical damage cumulated is +10 % ascended>exotic, and that’s quite allot. Rest doesn’t matter (cause it’s a difference of mby 2-3 %). So if they come with some new armors with +critical damage u will need to farm for it.

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

Okay, since you are now officially straw-manning my arguments, play the high-level (25+)fractals without ascended at all, let me know how much fun you had and if an item that literally does nothing but reduce agony damage would feel rewarding.

It would still feel plenty rewarding.

The concept of Agony and Infusion came from GW1, and boiled down to simply killing a particular monster and bringing his essence to a particular NPC to get it “infused”. And while it was implemented in a clunky way at first, it was an easy way to introduce “progression” without changing the player’s statistical strength at all. Suddenly this mighty enemy that crushed you in combat was significantly weakened, making him seem more killable. That’s story progression and power progression without ever actually increasing your power at all.

If they had implemented it in the same way in GW2, people would have been fine with it. Gather X Fractal Relics to infuse one piece of armor with Agony Resistance, making you that much more resilient to the effect. Poof, your desire for “progression” is answered without even adding a new tier of gear at all.

You’re much too attached to this extra tier of gear to realize just how poorly this whole thing has been implemented.

I’m not attached to anything, I’m not sure where you get off telling me what my own position is on a minor statistical upgrade. I’m a casual player who is running around in crafted exotic armor and rare everything else. If anything, I’d be on your side, except for the fact I like having goals to chase in the long term.

Mackdose.6504:

I’m not attached to anything, I’m not sure where you get off telling me what my own position is on a minor statistical upgrade. I’m a casual player who is running around in crafted exotic armor and rare everything else. If anything, I’d be on your side, except for the fact I like having goals to chase in the long term.

The problem here is that you don’t seem to think that something can still be a “long-term goal” unless it has higher stats attached to it. I assure you that it can.

There are entire games built around the concept of “horizontal progression”, that is, providing more customization as opposed to more stats. GW1 is one example, but cosmetics aren’t the only way to achieve this effect. LoL uses new heroes as its form of horizontal progression, and the constant shifting of which heroes are ‘best’ at any given time constructs their metagame. GW2 has the core for another such method already built into it: additional weapon types, skills, and traits that you have to unlock would be an example of ways to introduce progression without increasing player stats one bit.

Ascended tier isn’t a bad idea in concept, it’s just a bad implementation of something that could have been done without a new tier of gear at all. They could’ve reintroduced Agony as a single-armor-unit infusion system like it originally was in GW1, and that would’ve kept Fractals entirely intact without having to add any gear at all. Less work in general, less hassle, and less complaints from their players. What’s not to love about this idea?

But instead, we got the Ascended gear. The higher stats were primarily added to satisfy a crowd that has already moved on, and it damaged the staff’s reputation quite significantly with players who were formerly quite loyal to the game. Now they’re stuck with a non-optimal situation and they need to make the most of it.

I’m not particularly upset about the stat increase so much as the precedent it sets, and how it’s such a stark contrast from the design of its predecessor. There are so many ways they can give us progression without having to resort to the oft-used-and-somewhat-lazy design of “bigger numbers” that it’s a shame to see them following a path that every other MMO on the market is following, especially when GW2 is portraying itself as “the MMO revolution” and trying to set a new standard.

critickitten.1498:

The problem here is that you don’t seem to think that something can still be a “long-term goal” unless it has higher stats attached to it. I assure you that it can.

Correct. I had full obsidian armor in GW1. Having a rare and cool looking armor skin was sufficient motivation; I did not need it to give me an advantage over others in PvP.

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

I’m not attached to anything, I’m not sure where you get off telling me what my own position is on a minor statistical upgrade. I’m a casual player who is running around in crafted exotic armor and rare everything else. If anything, I’d be on your side, except for the fact I like having goals to chase in the long term.

The problem here is that you don’t seem to think that something can still be a “long-term goal” unless it has higher stats attached to it.

False. Moving on.

-condescending bullskritt- …GW2 has the core for another such method already built into it: additional weapon types, skills, and traits that you have to unlock would be an example of ways to introduce progression without increasing player stats one bit.

And this is a fine idea. I would love to have this added to the game over a rarity of gear any day.

Ascended tier isn’t a bad idea in concept, it’s just a bad implementation of something that could have been done without a new tier of gear at all. They could’ve reintroduced Agony as a single-armor-unit infusion system like it originally was in GW1, and that would’ve kept Fractals entirely intact without having to add any gear at all. Less work in general, less hassle, and less complaints from their players. What’s not to love about this idea?

1. It doesn’t accomplish filling a few holes in the gameplay that ArenaNet wanted to include for a certain portion of the userbase, namely hardcore PvE progression types.
2. It doesn’t fill the gap of time that existed between finishing the exotic set and attaining a legendary, leaving a large portion of the player base feeling like all there was to do is commit to grinding out a legendary for “PvE Endgame.”
3. It takes a lot of time (design, prototype, coding, testing, iterating, testing, iterating, testing, polish, ready to release) to completely recode an infusion system to go on top of the currently existing gear system and have something you could show off outside of the dungeon.

I’m certain that this is why we have ascended gear earlier than planned.

-hyperbole- Now they’re stuck with a non-optimal situation and they need to make the most of it.

Non-optimal? The PvE is balanced around rares! Anything at exotic is over-kill except in fractals.

I’m not particularly upset about the stat increase so much as the precedent it sets, and how it’s such a stark contrast from the design of its predecessor. There are so many ways they can give us progression without having to resort to the oft-used-and-somewhat-lazy design of “bigger numbers” that it’s a shame to see them following a path that every other MMO on the market is following, especially when GW2 is portraying itself as “the MMO revolution” and trying to set a new standard.

Generally I agree with this sentiment. I will not go as far as to say it’s a treadmill or on the same planet that WoW inhabits in regards to vertical progression, but there are better and more creative ways to implement horizontal progression, which I think is lacking in the hybrid model ArenaNet is attempting.

Mackdose.6504:

False.

Except that you actually said that. On multiple occasions. So it’s not false, it’s just repeating exactly what you said in your own words.

Quotes:

If it isn’t cosmetic, and it only gives resistance to a passive effect, do you really think people would try to achieve the reward? No, they wouldn’t.

The fact remains that the gear’s effects without a stat increase would be mechanically hollow (read: NOT FUN), and therefore bad design.

Not everyone would like to spend hours of their free time for a useless piece of gear because of its lore.

Playing higher level fractals without the stat increase (progression) would not be fun or satisfying.

If that’s not what you meant, it’s time for you to start clarifying and correcting, because what you said is that you think those items, and indeed the entire dungeon as a whole, would be useless (your own word choice) without stat increases on the gear.

Please be intellectually honest if you intend to continue discussing this subject. Stick to what you’ve said rather than trying to change it, or if that’s not what you meant, then clarify. But don’t claim you didn’t say something when there are several quotes of you saying precisely that.

It doesn’t accomplish filling a few holes in the gameplay that ArenaNet wanted to include for a certain portion of the userbase, namely hardcore PvE progression types.

Wasn’t this the point of “legendaries”?

It doesn’t fill the gap of time that existed between finishing the exotic set and attaining a legendary, leaving a large portion of the player base feeling like all there was to do is commit to grinding out a legendary for “PvE Endgame.”

This “gap” doesn’t actually exist for most players. You’re either the sort of person who is willing to grind for gear, or you’re not. The whole point of having “legendaries”, originally, was to implement something that hardcore grinders could go after, while leaving the core gaming audience able to attain max power without significant time investment.

Now, instead, they’ve created a system whereby everyone must grind to reach max power, even their casual players. This means casual players are obligated to grind for gear (which they won’t like), and hardcore players aren’t getting as much grind as they wanted (which they won’t like). Neither crowd is being catered to with this model. This is an attempt to please both crowds, and it’s not worked so far, judging from these forums and the lower in-game population.

It takes a lot of time (design, prototype, coding, testing, iterating, testing, iterating, testing, polish, ready to release) to completely recode an infusion system to go on top of the currently existing gear system and have something you could show off outside of the dungeon.

Which goes back to the point I’ve already made: “bigger numbers” development is easier, but it’s also lazier. It doesn’t ever sate the “hardcore” crowd because they’ll always obtain it much faster than you can produce it, and it alienates your “casual” players over time as the gap between their gear and the top gear continues to grow and pile up. It also leads to power creep, which is another game design problem that WoW struggled with, to the point where they had to redesign much of their older content to keep it from being rendered utterly useless.

Let’s illustrate with an example: the previous in-game dungeons, while not exactly well-designed, did have one advantage over Fractals: they each had a set of uniquely-skinned gear that the players could obtain with repeated runs of the dungeon. This created a system whereby players could grind for cosmetics rather than power, precisely the sort of system that the bulk of their players wanted.

Non-optimal? The PvE is balanced around rares! Anything at exotic is over-kill except in fractals.

I’m not talking about “non-optimal” in the sense of the game mechanics, I’m speaking of “non-optimal” as a business.

Non-optimal in the sense that their game now has an extremely bad word of mouth by many of the players that were heaping praise upon it. Non-optimal in the sense that their player count has dropped, and their sales to boot. Non-optimal in the sense that their decision indirectly led to a significant slide in the value of NCSoft shares, which they have yet to recover from.

The whole reason that the Jan/Feb/March (and now April) patches are focusing on “strengthening the core game” rather than new content as they’ve been doing is that they’re pulling back on the reins a bit and trying to get their players to come back. They see other games on the horizon that threaten their market share (TESO, aka “GW2 Skyrim Edition”, being the main one). The problem is that they’re trying to appeal to people who have already left, most likely for good, so their success will be limited in that endeavor.

To clarify:

If it isn’t cosmetic, and it only gives resistance to a passive effect, do you really think people would try to achieve the reward? No, they wouldn’t.

The fact remains that the gear’s effects without a stat increase would be mechanically hollow (read: NOT FUN), and therefore bad design.

Right, because you’d never be able to get as far in the fractals as they are currently designed without the agony resist in combination with the stat increase. Eventually ascended gear wouldn’t matter because sure, you’d resist agony, but the mobs would decimate you on much lower levels of difficulty than they do now.

It’s called “context.” That’s why I dislike you snipping bits of clarification off of my posts, it lets you misrepresent my position by straw-manning.

Not everyone would like to spend hours of their free time for a useless piece of gear because of its lore.

I’m not speaking for myself, because my tastes don’t represent the entirety of the user base. Not a hard concept.

Playing higher level fractals without the stat increase (progression) would not be fun or satisfying.

This was in reference to the much steeper difficulty curve that not having the stats would introduce, were they removed. I explained this above.

To your responses:

Wasn’t this the point of “legendaries”?

No, unless you count a single long grind to a pretty effect with purple text as progression.

This “gap” doesn’t actually exist for most players. You’re either the sort of person who is willing to grind for gear, or you’re not. The whole point of having “legendaries”, originally, was to implement something that hardcore grinders could go after, while leaving the core gaming audience able to attain max power without significant time investment.

And it wasn’t fun. People hit the plateau early, ran out of things to do and people who didn’t want a boring grind to a purple up and left. Fractals were the answer to this lack of things to do, and it had a gear rarity to entice hardcore PvE types into a number to chase (Fractal difficulty, not BiS gear.) Could this have been done without a stat increase? Sure. Would it have been fast or easy? No. Compromise.

This means casual players are obligated to grind for gear (which they won’t like), and hardcore players aren’t getting as much grind as they wanted (which they won’t like). Neither crowd is being catered to with this model. This is an attempt to please both crowds, and it’s not worked so far, judging from these forums and the lower in-game population.

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types? Or is this a nonsensical baseless argument pulled from nowhere? The forums are full of complaints. Welcome to the internet, and as for the lower in-game population you have a source for that? I could have sworn the population leveled out after the post-launch surge, and was retaining more players every week.

It also leads to power creep, which is another game design problem that WoW struggled with, to the point where they had to redesign much of their older content to keep it from being rendered utterly useless.

Different games are different. This is a slippery slope fallacy.

This created a system whereby players could grind for cosmetics rather than power, precisely the sort of system that the bulk of their Guild Wars 1 players wanted.

Fixed that for you. I played GW1 as well, but I wasn’t a fan of the gear system. I don’t mind VP with a shallow power curve.

Non-optimal in the sense that their game now has an extremely bad word of mouth by many of the players that were heaping praise upon it. Non-optimal in the sense that their player count has dropped, and their sales to boot. Non-optimal in the sense that their decision indirectly led to a significant slide in the value of NCSoft shares, which they have yet to recover from.

http://boycottncsoft.com/2012/ncsofts-stock-plummets-11-at-the-opening-bell/

No.

The whole reason that the Jan/Feb/March (and now April) patches are focusing on “strengthening the core game” rather than new content as they’ve been doing is that they’re pulling back on the reins a bit and trying to get their players to come back. They see other games on the horizon that threaten their market share (TESO, aka “GW2 Skyrim Edition”, being the main one). The problem is that they’re trying to appeal to people who have already left, most likely for good, so their success will be limited in that endeavor.

Speculation? Do you have any evidence for these claims besides hearsay?

Mackdose.6504:

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types?

No. The grind they added wasn’t enough for the hardcores (read: it’s not infinite, thus the locusts are not satisfied, ever), thus they aren’t satisfied.
And then the mere existence of the higher tier added after launch is enough to make anyone worried about the treadmill, thus HP advocates aren’t satisfied either.
So basically by adding it they kitten off their loyal fans and didn’t even come close to giving the locusts they were catering to enough to make them stay.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types?

No. The grind they added wasn’t enough for the hardcores (read: it’s not infinite, thus the locusts are not satisfied, ever), thus they aren’t satisfied.
And then the mere existence of the higher tier added after launch is enough to make anyone worried about the treadmill, thus HP advocates aren’t satisfied either.
So basically by adding it they kitten off their loyal fans and didn’t even come close to giving the locusts they were catering to enough to make them stay.

What about loyal fans like myself, who are somewhere in the grey area between those apparently over-arching Hardcore vs. Casual groups everyone is straw manning around here. I’m not hardcore enough to hit the top, but not casual enough to complain about things that take effort.

My point being there’s more to the player base than the extremes being used in example here.

Mackdose.6504:

No, unless you count a single long grind to a pretty effect with purple text as progression.

It’s called “horizontal progression” for a reason.

And it wasn’t fun in my opinion. Some people hit the plateau early, ran out of things to do and left the game, and everyone else who didn’t want a boring grind just ignored legendaries entirely.

Fixed for you.

Could this have been done without a stat increase? Sure. Would it have been fast or easy? No. Compromise.

Are you asserting that it would have been more difficult to create new gear with identical stats to existing gear than to create all new gear with all new stats?

I certainly agree that it might have been more difficult to add Agony Resistance to existing gear as an optional upgrade, but the alternative as proposed by the OP (just making the new gear have AR and nothing else) would most certainly have been easier than making up brand new numbers. So if it boiled down entirely to what is easiest, why not do that instead?

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types? Or is this a nonsensical baseless argument pulled from nowhere?

They’re not getting a significant grind, no. They’re getting a much smaller grind which they will finish in much less time than it took them to get their “legendaries”, and that’s not going to be enough to sate them.

The forums are full of complaints. Welcome to the internet, and as for the lower in-game population you have a source for that? I could have sworn the population leveled out after the post-launch surge, and was retaining more players every week.

Ah, so if I state the game’s population is down (which, if you weigh the circumstantial evidence from the players and other sources, is likely true) then I need a guaranteed source for that information, but if you state that the game’s retention is increasing rather than decreasing, then there’s no sources needed?

Different games are different. This is a slippery slope fallacy.

No, it’s only a “slippery slope” if it’s leading to a conclusion that is untrue. Power creep is a real thing, and every other game that has followed a path of vertical progression has had to deal with it. GW2 will be no different.

Fixed that for you. I played GW1 as well, but I wasn’t a fan of the gear system. I don’t mind VP with a shallow power curve.

Except that the power curve is not shallow. 5-10% for every item leads to significantly higher than that in total damage yields for Berserker-style builds. 5% increases, for example, yield at least 13% more damage due to the way Power, Precision, and Critical Damage stack in a multiplicative fashion in the game’s damage calculations.

http://boycottncsoft.com/2012/ncsofts-stock-plummets-11-at-the-opening-bell/

No.

Psst, you’re looking at the wrong dates. That is just one of many recent stock plunges that NCSoft has experienced.

Their first occurred near the start of September, a little while after GW2 had hit its initial peak. That one led to a continued dropoff that they have yet to recover from, such a massive drop from their original figures that the one you’re linking to was a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Take a look at the 6 month trend: http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS

They had another big one in November that dropped them under 200k following a poor earnings forecast, since by this point GW2’s sales had been dropping off significantly from the initial weeks, such that even their significantly high initial sales weren’t enough to help offset the falling sales across the board.

Speculation? Do you have any evidence for these claims besides hearsay?

The problem here is that “evidence” for any claim of this nature isn’t going to exist. All we, as players, have to go by are the trends.

And here are the trends:
1) Less players sighted in the game and the forums.
2) A significantly negative backlash to the Lost Shores event not only in the forums, but across the internet.
3) The developers themselves admitting that Lost Shores was not a fully successful release, and vowing to fix this for future content.
4) A significant shift in the way the developers interact with players since the Lost Shores.
5) An early declaration that the next several patches would be focused on fixing old content rather than adding new content.

Games that are experiencing wild levels of success don’t tend to behave in this fashion.

So, no, I don’t have “evidence”, and neither do you. We have trends. And the trends highly suggest that the game isn’t doing as well as has been suggested.

If you don’t agree, that’s fine. I’m not going to go out of my way to prove speculation and theory based on trends. But I will continue to use that as an operating thesis until data is presented that suggests otherwise. That is the nature of history, science, and mathematics: you operate under an existing assumption until you have data to help prove otherwise.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

No. The grind they added wasn’t enough for the hardcores (read: it’s not infinite, thus the locusts are not satisfied, ever), thus they aren’t satisfied.
And then the mere existence of the higher tier added after launch is enough to make anyone worried about the treadmill, thus HP advocates aren’t satisfied either.
So basically by adding it they kitten off their loyal fans and didn’t even come close to giving the locusts they were catering to enough to make them stay.

QFT!

ANet tried to cater to everyone, which resulted in the poorly implemented ascended fiasco we have today. The people that bought the game pre-release under the impression this was a HP game got shafted. The people that didn’t do their research and bought the game expecting VP screamed loudly and ANet caved, ditching their pre-release philosophy. ANet scrambled to appease the VP crowd, but it’s not enough to satisfy the hardcores.

I wish ANet had the balls to stick with their original vision they had pre-release. Such a shame.

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types?

No. The grind they added wasn’t enough for the hardcores (read: it’s not infinite, thus the locusts are not satisfied, ever), thus they aren’t satisfied.
And then the mere existence of the higher tier added after launch is enough to make anyone worried about the treadmill, thus HP advocates aren’t satisfied either.
So basically by adding it they kitten off their loyal fans and didn’t even come close to giving the locusts they were catering to enough to make them stay.

What about loyal fans like myself, who are somewhere in the grey area between those apparently over-arching Hardcore vs. Casual groups everyone is straw manning around here. I’m not hardcore enough to hit the top, but not casual enough to complain about things that take effort.

My point being there’s more to the player base than the extremes being used in example here.

If 2 courses of action are available, and a group of those affected doesn’t care either way, they are pointless to consider, since it doesn’t affect them.
Thus, you consider more to the extremes, where the course you take actually changes opinions.

This generation of gamers need incentive to play, instead of simply making their own fun,
Its very sad, the vocal minority convinced the developers to ruin this one unique MMO, making it the same boring stat grind as all the rest,

Why they couldnt just play one of the 10+ MMOs with stat grinds I dont know, they had to ruin this one,

This is why we cant have nice things

Mackdose.6504:

I’m convinced all of the people screaming “GRINDFEST” haven’t played an MMO from the last 8 years. If you think this is a treadmill, or a forced gear grind for best stats to be competitive, go play WoW, or Rift, or Swtor, or AoC, or Lotro.
<snip>

Well – your conviction is way, way, off. I’ve played all of these, and still play at one of them.

The situation is that many of us came over here exactly because this game was promising something different, and based on the experiences with GW1 gear and ANets references to ‘cosmetics’ to be what you hunt for, not stats.
So many did not like them suddenly interjecting another gear tier to bridge a gap which wasn’t there, which could only be gotten by farming a single dungeon (at that time, now you can get them in two ways), yet be useful everywhere – including the WvW and which contradicted their ‘all avenues give access to same rewards’ mantra from before said patch plus with the promise of more levels of infusion (aka tiers of gear).

It’s about context, not about mindlessly defending a game by making blanket statements in an attempt to paint people who have a different opinion.
It’s perfectly fine you love the game so much that you’ll have to defend it at all cost, but frankly – ANet themselves brought this in by actions contradicting words.
They’ve even said it was a mistake to do it that way underlining that they know they did bad.

Kouken.8604:

This generation of gamers need incentive to play, instead of simply making their own fun,
Its very sad, the vocal minority convinced the developers to ruin this one unique MMO, making it the same boring stat grind as all the rest,

Why they couldnt just play one of the 10+ MMOs with stat grinds I dont know, they had to ruin this one,

This is why we cant have nice things

They couldn’t play one of the others because just as the swarm consumes new content and gear tiers, the same happens to new games as it’s basically just new content.
And developers and investors fear the cash flow so they bend to it.

Mackdose.6504:

Playing higher level fractals without the stat increase (progression) would not be fun or satisfying. If you can’t see why this is a big reason, I’m not sure why you want to talk about game mechanics at all.

The whole idea of fractals was that any deeper level would be harder than the one before it. Introducing a new tier of equipment that makes those deeper levels easier is counterintuitive to the very idea of Fractals.
If going into fractals without ascended eq makes your char weaker by Y, then the only thing wearing that equipment does is changing Fractal level difficulty of X into level difficulty of (X-Y). There’s neither point nor progress to it – it’s not like you get into further fractals because you are better, but simply because you changed the “normal” setting into “Easy mode”. And that’s just pathetic.

Heijincks.9267:

Yet, the stat grind in GW2 pales compared to the rest.

And? “There are places where they have it even worse” is no justification for bad design.

critickitten.1498:

Ah, so if I state the game’s population is down (which, if you weigh the circumstantial evidence from the players and other sources, is likely true) then I need a guaranteed source for that information, but if you state that the game’s retention is increasing rather than decreasing, then there’s no sources needed?

My source is Colin Johanson in a guest spot on MMOFTW, wherein he stated that after the population drop from the initial sales surge, that the concurrent player base and leveled out and had actually been increasing over a 6 week period following the holidays.

Except that the power curve is not shallow. 5-10% for every item leads to significantly higher than that in total damage yields for Berserker-style builds. 5% increases, for example, yield at least 13% more damage due to the way Power, Precision, and Critical Damage stack in a multiplicative fashion in the game’s damage calculations.

Looking at potential maximum damage separate from actual game play (and yes, the damage will be higher, no denying that) poses an argument that doesn’t really apply: that the higher gear will somehow carry a low-skill player.

I don’t think this will be the case, hence why I don’t mind the stat increase.
——
I’m not blindly defending anything here, just trying to move the conversation to bigger issues than increased stats such as:

1. Ascended gear being bad for alts due to calendar gating.
2. Ascended Infusions requiring the same mats as legendaries, extending the grind.
3. Ascended gear not being available by crafting.
4. Ascended gear still not available in enough venues.

At the end of the day, the increased stats don’t matter to anyone but horizontal progression purists when the gear is easily accessible and available. It’s not accessible enough yet, and that is a problem.

The issue with making ascended gear accessible quickly is that the time gap to the gear cap is back to being too short. This was obviously an issue (not just my opinion), else why would ArenaNet rush to move on it? I remember the exact statement being “Players were hitting the Exotic wall faster than we anticipated.” So clearly, they want there to be some time between level cap and gear cap.

There are more productive discussions to be had on ascended gear than whether or not they need increased stats, which is why I’m trying to persuade people who can’t get over that fact to move on.

It’s a tried and true reward structure that is appealing to a large amount of the player base, not just content locusts.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types?

No. The grind they added wasn’t enough for the hardcores (read: it’s not infinite, thus the locusts are not satisfied, ever), thus they aren’t satisfied.
And then the mere existence of the higher tier added after launch is enough to make anyone worried about the treadmill, thus HP advocates aren’t satisfied either.
So basically by adding it they kitten off their loyal fans and didn’t even come close to giving the locusts they were catering to enough to make them stay.

What about loyal fans like myself, who are somewhere in the grey area between those apparently over-arching Hardcore vs. Casual groups everyone is straw manning around here. I’m not hardcore enough to hit the top, but not casual enough to complain about things that take effort.

My point being there’s more to the player base than the extremes being used in example here.

If 2 courses of action are available, and a group of those affected doesn’t care either way, they are pointless to consider, since it doesn’t affect them.
Thus, you consider more to the extremes, where the course you take actually changes opinions.

That’s not how a bell curve works, the people in the middle represent a much larger portion of the player base than both extremes combined. To say these changes don’t affect the majority of the playerbase is flat out false.

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types?

No. The grind they added wasn’t enough for the hardcores (read: it’s not infinite, thus the locusts are not satisfied, ever), thus they aren’t satisfied.
And then the mere existence of the higher tier added after launch is enough to make anyone worried about the treadmill, thus HP advocates aren’t satisfied either.
So basically by adding it they kitten off their loyal fans and didn’t even come close to giving the locusts they were catering to enough to make them stay.

What about loyal fans like myself, who are somewhere in the grey area between those apparently over-arching Hardcore vs. Casual groups everyone is straw manning around here. I’m not hardcore enough to hit the top, but not casual enough to complain about things that take effort.

My point being there’s more to the player base than the extremes being used in example here.

If 2 courses of action are available, and a group of those affected doesn’t care either way, they are pointless to consider, since it doesn’t affect them.
Thus, you consider more to the extremes, where the course you take actually changes opinions.

That’s not how a bell curve works, the people in the middle represent a much larger portion of the player base than both extremes combined. To say these changes don’t affect the majority of the playerbase is flat out false.

Yes, the middle of the bell curve has far more people in it. But when those people do not care whether or not you make a certain change, then why would you consider the effects on them? It doesn’t matter to them.
So, you note their opinion that they don’t care, and then proceed to deal with the people who do.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types?

No. The grind they added wasn’t enough for the hardcores (read: it’s not infinite, thus the locusts are not satisfied, ever), thus they aren’t satisfied.
And then the mere existence of the higher tier added after launch is enough to make anyone worried about the treadmill, thus HP advocates aren’t satisfied either.
So basically by adding it they kitten off their loyal fans and didn’t even come close to giving the locusts they were catering to enough to make them stay.

What about loyal fans like myself, who are somewhere in the grey area between those apparently over-arching Hardcore vs. Casual groups everyone is straw manning around here. I’m not hardcore enough to hit the top, but not casual enough to complain about things that take effort.

My point being there’s more to the player base than the extremes being used in example here.

If 2 courses of action are available, and a group of those affected doesn’t care either way, they are pointless to consider, since it doesn’t affect them.
Thus, you consider more to the extremes, where the course you take actually changes opinions.

That’s not how a bell curve works, the people in the middle represent a much larger portion of the player base than both extremes combined. To say these changes don’t affect the majority of the playerbase is flat out false.

Yes, the middle of the bell curve has far more people in it. But when those people do not care whether or not you make a certain change, then why would you consider the effects on them? It doesn’t matter to them.
So, you note their opinion that they don’t care, and then proceed to deal with the people who do.

Whether it matters to the middle or not is irrelevant, catering to vocal minorities on either side of the bell curve affects all players, and should be handled with caution.

Disregarding the middle of the road to appease one side or another is a bad idea.

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mackdose.6504:

Hardcore types aren’t getting the grind they wanted? Are you advocating more grind for the hardcore types?

No. The grind they added wasn’t enough for the hardcores (read: it’s not infinite, thus the locusts are not satisfied, ever), thus they aren’t satisfied.
And then the mere existence of the higher tier added after launch is enough to make anyone worried about the treadmill, thus HP advocates aren’t satisfied either.
So basically by adding it they kitten off their loyal fans and didn’t even come close to giving the locusts they were catering to enough to make them stay.

What about loyal fans like myself, who are somewhere in the grey area between those apparently over-arching Hardcore vs. Casual groups everyone is straw manning around here. I’m not hardcore enough to hit the top, but not casual enough to complain about things that take effort.

My point being there’s more to the player base than the extremes being used in example here.

If 2 courses of action are available, and a group of those affected doesn’t care either way, they are pointless to consider, since it doesn’t affect them.
Thus, you consider more to the extremes, where the course you take actually changes opinions.

That’s not how a bell curve works, the people in the middle represent a much larger portion of the player base than both extremes combined. To say these changes don’t affect the majority of the playerbase is flat out false.

Yes, the middle of the bell curve has far more people in it. But when those people do not care whether or not you make a certain change, then why would you consider the effects on them? It doesn’t matter to them.
So, you note their opinion that they don’t care, and then proceed to deal with the people who do.

Whether it matters to the middle or not is irrelevant, catering to vocal minorities on either side of the bell curve affects all players, and should be handled with caution.

Disregarding the middle of the road to appease one side or another is a bad idea.

Disregarding the middle of the road is exactly what you do when the middle of the road does not even have an opinion on what you’re doing.
The only thing you actually do with those who don’t care in mind is trying to MAKE them care.

Mackdose.6504:

I’m not blindly defending anything here, just trying to move the conversation to bigger issues than increased stats such as:

1. Ascended gear being bad for alts due to calendar gating.
2. Ascended Infusions requiring the same mats as legendaries, extending the grind.
3. Ascended gear not being available by crafting.
4. Ascended gear still not available in enough venues.

At the end of the day, the increased stats don’t matter to anyone but horizontal progression purists when the gear is easily accessible and available. It’s not accessible enough yet, and that is a problem.

The issue with making ascended gear accessible quickly is that the time gap to the gear cap is back to being too short. This was obviously an issue (not just my opinion), else why would ArenaNet rush to move on it? I remember the exact statement being “Players were hitting the Exotic wall faster than we anticipated.” So clearly, they want there to be some time between level cap and gear cap.

time to gear cap being short was one of the selling points of the game, and your making assumptions, that could just as easily mean people got their exotics farmed story mode/ etc for tokens before nerfs and got the asthetic they wanted transmuted and had no further needs in term of gearing. ie hitting the wall in terms of needing to get exotic gear

they panicked and released half baked mess they hadn’t thought through, in their own words they knew it was flawed and pushed it out anyway but its all right cause they had the “best intentions”. I upgraded my armour to exotics ~2 weeks before they announced a new tier. its such fun to be told all the gold you just spent on bis gear that would last the lifetime of the game is obsolete.

Mackdose.6504:

There are more productive discussions to be had on ascended gear than whether or not they need increased stats, which is why I’m trying to persuade people who can’t get over that fact to move on.

and all of those are solved and unnecessary by removing it or nerfing the stats to be equivalent to exotics, so its just a rarer tier with no statistical advantages kind of like legendaries are supposed to be, but those are now actual BIS because they get a free upgrade forever, by having it just be rarer but equivalent to exotics it doesn’t matter how accessible it is as its optional content

It’s a tried and true reward structure that is appealing to a large amount of the player base, not just content locusts.

got solid numbers to back this up or just personal opinion? cause i can equally say
It’s a tried and true reward structure that is unappealing to a large amount of the player base, not just casuals.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Mackdose.6504:

It’s a tried and true reward structure that is appealing to a large amount of the player base, not just content locusts.

got solid numbers to back this up or just personal opinion? cause i can equally say
It’s a tried and true reward structure that is unappealing to a large amount of the player base, not just casuals.

How about the previous success of the progression model in every modern MMO since EQ? How about the success of the progression model since OD&D?

It’s old, but it still has an audience, and that audience is large. That is indisputable.

However, we’re both right in this case as there are large portions on both sides of the fence.

I’d like to point out that I’m a casual player that doesn’t have an issue with the ascended stats, because it doesn’t affect my ability to play the game. I have only Rare weapons, under-leveled jewelery and crafted soldier/valkyrie exotic armor.

IF the stat inflation starts limiting my gameplay options, I’ll be fighting against the power creep with the rest of you. Until then, I have no problem with the fact that people with different tastes than my own have vertical progression in limited fashion.

I would like to see more horizontal options and rewards than more gear.

Mackdose.6504:

IF the stat inflation starts limiting my gameplay options, …

It will, eventually. Ascended gear is just the first step, every additional tier brings in real money from the fine transmutation stones that are bought with gems, which are ultimately bought with real money.

frans.8092:

Mackdose.6504:

IF the stat inflation starts limiting my gameplay options, …

It will, eventually. Ascended gear is just the first step, every additional tier brings in real money from the fine transmutation stones that are bought with gems, which are ultimately bought with real money.

I’m taking a “wait and see” approach.

My guess is that ascended will be the final tier for a while, infusion rarities will be the vertical side of progression, the level cap increase will bring nothing but cosmetic rewards above 80, with stat scaling coming from the increase to base stats by level rather than gear.

…What a wonderful expansion that would be…

Mackdose.6504:

Shadow Blade.1324:

Mackdose.6504:

It’s a tried and true reward structure that is appealing to a large amount of the player base, not just content locusts.

got solid numbers to back this up or just personal opinion? cause i can equally say
It’s a tried and true reward structure that is unappealing to a large amount of the player base, not just casuals.

How about the previous success of the progression model in every modern MMO since EQ? How about the success of the progression model since OD&D?

It’s old, but it still has an audience, and that audience is large. That is indisputable.

True – but there are far better games catering to that playing style. GW2 is not enough vertical progression oriented to win here.

IF the stat inflation starts limiting my gameplay options

Eventually it will have to. You cannot do vertical progression halfway – once you start it, you have to run it forever.

Ascended gear was implemented with a hope for an ‘end game’.
An ‘end game’ is fine but the way it was implemented was questionable. Ascended gear having better stats breaks essentially what GW2 was suppose to stand for. And I know people say that you can simply grind it out but do you realize how long you have to grind it out? OVER 20 hours.
Grind for armor for over 20 hours simply should not happen or be allowed to happen.

Anet upgrade all exotic to ‘ascended’ status. Then simply put more skins in fotm for all the WoW/traditional players to go for. The skins should look amazing, somthing everyone wants. If you put around 10+ in there then suddently no one will complain; however this is on the condition if you brind up exotic stat items up to ascended level.

This solution is quite simply and makes EVERYONE happy.

I think instead of asking, “why ascended gear needs better stats”, if you don’t like it, you should be asking yourself, “why do I care”. If the answer is that you do not want to jump through the hoops but feel inadequate knowing you’re not pursuing the best equipment available… I’m here to tell you… nobody cares. The best thing about GW2 is you can do whatever you want. If you don’t want to pursue it, don’t! The most important attributes in any situation in this game is the willingness to adapt and the capability of playing smart (i.e. – not being a weak link and screwing up the group effort).

Nobody cares if you have ascended gear. There is no substitute for common sense in this game, statistically or otherwise.

Astralporing.1957:

Mackdose.6504:

Shadow Blade.1324:

Mackdose.6504:

It’s a tried and true reward structure that is appealing to a large amount of the player base, not just content locusts.

got solid numbers to back this up or just personal opinion? cause i can equally say
It’s a tried and true reward structure that is unappealing to a large amount of the player base, not just casuals.

How about the previous success of the progression model in every modern MMO since EQ? How about the success of the progression model since OD&D?

It’s old, but it still has an audience, and that audience is large. That is indisputable.

True – but there are far better games catering to that playing style. GW2 is not enough vertical progression oriented to win here.

IF the stat inflation starts limiting my gameplay options

Eventually it will have to. You cannot do vertical progression halfway – once you start it, you have to run it forever.

Right, but the devil is in the details. If the curve takes a year or two to invalidate my current gear, I’m not going to be upset. If it’s invalidating my gear in a 3-6 month window, I’m quitting and not coming back.

So far, so good.

I think it’s about keeping people busy. Too many players were reaching 80, finishing their maps, getting their exotics, and then moving on. This was a way for those folks to keep “achieving” and staying busy. I don’t think most people will do a lot of grinding for cosmetics. Some will, sure, but I doubt it was in the numbers they were hoping for.

Mackdose.6504:

Astralporing.1957:

Mackdose.6504:

Shadow Blade.1324:

Mackdose.6504:

It’s a tried and true reward structure that is appealing to a large amount of the player base, not just content locusts.

got solid numbers to back this up or just personal opinion? cause i can equally say
It’s a tried and true reward structure that is unappealing to a large amount of the player base, not just casuals.

How about the previous success of the progression model in every modern MMO since EQ? How about the success of the progression model since OD&D?

It’s old, but it still has an audience, and that audience is large. That is indisputable.

True – but there are far better games catering to that playing style. GW2 is not enough vertical progression oriented to win here.

IF the stat inflation starts limiting my gameplay options

Eventually it will have to. You cannot do vertical progression halfway – once you start it, you have to run it forever.

Right, but the devil is in the details. If the curve takes a year or two to invalidate my current gear, I’m not going to be upset. If it’s invalidating my gear in a 3-6 month window, I’m quitting and not coming back.

So far, so good.

At this moment it introduces new gear at the same rate that you can acquire it – but only if you play every day. If you don’t…

Mackdose.6504:

My source is Colin Johanson in a guest spot on MMOFTW, wherein he stated that after the population drop from the initial sales surge, that the concurrent player base and leveled out and had actually been increasing over a 6 week period following the holidays.

Got a link?

Also, you may have to forgive me if I don’t take everything Colin says with the fullest amount of integrity. Just recently he was saying in these forums that they were “adding new ways you can earn precursors as rewards via new reward systems taking advantage of our open persistent world”, then days later he was caught saying that he never actually said that precursors would be buyable through the new rewards system of laurels. Didn’t technically lie, but left a lot of people with a sour taste in their mouths because it wasn’t technically all that honest either.

So when Colin says “our numbers leveled off and then went up after the holidays”, my next two questions are “leveled off at how many total players exactly” and “increased by how many total players exactly”. Because if the game sold 2 million units in the initial weeks, it could very well be that they “leveled off” at 200k active players and then grew by a few thousand due to holiday sales, and that would still “technically” fit what he’s saying….even though it would still be indicative of a very serious problem if only 10% of the game’s initial purchasers were still playing it months after release.

So my immediate reaction to the vagueness of that statement is “let’s see some numbers”. Because we don’t have any right now, and I’m not going to rely on vague statements like that.

Looking at potential maximum damage separate from actual game play (and yes, the damage will be higher, no denying that) poses an argument that doesn’t really apply: that the higher gear will somehow carry a low-skill player.

Not really my point at all, actually.

My point is that given two approximately equal players, the player with Ascended gear has the clear advantage. This fight wouldn’t be one that’s on the tipping point and could technically still go either way, the Ascended player would almost certainly win because he/she is stronger in both offense and defense by a statistically significant margin.

I’m not blindly defending anything here, just trying to move the conversation to bigger issues than increased stats such as:

1. Ascended gear being bad for alts due to calendar gating.
2. Ascended Infusions requiring the same mats as legendaries, extending the grind.
3. Ascended gear not being available by crafting.
4. Ascended gear still not available in enough venues.

Those are all issues, I don’t disagree. I just think you significantly underestimate the problem that is automatically incurred when you push for a vertical progression system. There’s no denying that GW2’s vertical progression isn’t as bad, but I personally don’t think “not as bad” is good enough. Especially when its predecessor all but did away with vertical progression.

Yet we know for a fact that GW2 will feature (at the very least) level cap increases, meaning the grind will begin anew as soon as the first expansion comes out, even if they keep to their word and never introduce another tier of gear again (and I’m not entirely sure they’ll keep to that, either).

At the end of the day, the increased stats don’t matter to anyone but horizontal progression purists when the gear is easily accessible and available. It’s not accessible enough yet, and that is a problem.

The problem is that it’s never going to be accessible. As you yourself put it, this was supposed to fill a “gap” between Exotics (which require little to no grind) and “legendaries” (which are an obscene grind). The net result is an item that has a significant enough grind to deter most casual players, but a grind much too small to sate the tastes of a hardcore grind fanatic. This is what happens when you try to please two diametrically opposed groups of players: neither side is happy.

The issue with making ascended gear accessible quickly is that the time gap to the gear cap is back to being too short. This was obviously an issue (not just my opinion), else why would ArenaNet rush to move on it? I remember the exact statement being “Players were hitting the Exotic wall faster than we anticipated.” So clearly, they want there to be some time between level cap and gear cap.

And because they rushed it, they alienated a significant portion of their playerbase, possibly forever, significantly damaged their reputation across the internet, and possibly lost future sales. And they still lost most of the gear locusts, who had already begun to move on long before Ascended was introduced.

Sometimes it’s better to stop, take a few deep breaths, and collect data before you go making sweeping changes.

There are more productive discussions to be had on ascended gear than whether or not they need increased stats, which is why I’m trying to persuade people who can’t get over that fact to move on.

It’s a tried and true reward structure that is appealing to a large amount of the player base, not just content locusts.

Actually, if we look purely at the data, it suggests that vertical progression models are appealing to less and less players every year, because players get bored of it more quickly (because everyone’s doing it) and look for something else. Look at WoW’s rapidly falling numbers. Look at the shift to F2P structures for many well-established MMOs, as well as newcomers like TERA and SWTOR. And look at the rise of LoL, a game built on horizontal progression, a regular influx of new heroes, and conceptual intangibles rather than bigger numbers.

Falling back on a model that’s “tried and true” in the modern MMO market isn’t as safe and secure as it used to be, because there are hundreds of competitors out there now who offer the same experience for free. Companies that move forward with subscription models need to make adjustments and stand out to retain players. Why do you think TESO is copying GW2 rather than WoW? Their devs have seen the trends. :p

critickitten.1498:

Got a link?

Sure.

http://bit.ly/11HmdXk

Edit (2): The full video is an hour long. Worth the watch if you like MMOs as a genre (or the games industry), skip to 18 minutes for GW2 stuff.

there should be an option of getting an ascended gear by mystique forging an exotic gear together with few other items, possibly earned by completing the main storyline…

remember in GW1, you get your gear infused by taking a normal gear to an NPC after completing a quest…. that’s all….

azizul.8469:

there should be an option of getting an ascended gear by mystique forging an exotic gear together with few other items, possibly earned by completing the main storyline…

remember in GW1, you get your gear infused by taking a normal gear to an NPC after completing a quest…. that’s all….

You can do this with the triforge amulet.

Folks in this thread seem to be misunderstanding something. They keep saying “GW2 could do it this way because that is what Guild Wars 1 did”. This game isn’t trying to follow in Guild Wars 1’s footsteps, it’s trying to follow in World of Warcraft’s footsteps. If you want to prove that this game can get away with doing something a certain way, you need to prove that it exists in WoW.

Can you craft the best tier using something similar to the mystic forge in WoW? No? Then don’t expect to see it here. Is there only a minute difference between the top tier of gear and the second top? No? Then don’t expect to see it here.

Anet has made it extremely obvious what their design goals are, and those design goals have nothing to do with the Guild Wars series. The only thing this game has in common with that series is the lore. Otherwise, you would do well to look to Warcraft and it’s spinoffs for a better idea of where the game is headed.

Guild Wars 1: Stat plateau, BiS gear ASAP with grinding for looks only, expansions don’t add gear or levels so your character remains viable for all content in the game, guild battles

WoW: Stat progression, BiS gear takes unbelievable amount of grind, expansions add levels and start your gear grind from scratch so if you are away for a year you are no longer viable, no guild battles but rather small 5-10 man battlegrounds and a single zone for "open world’ PvP.

Which of those two sounds more like GW2? Once you figure that out, you’ll have a good idea of where to look for the future of this game.